Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 351966 times)

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Offline rstofer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #225 on: June 13, 2016, 09:10:49 pm »

A recent study by a US-based organisation rated the healthcare provision of New Zealand, Australia, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, Britain and the US.

The NHS was rated as the best, and the US came last.

All such ranking exercises have an element of subjectivity, and the NHS certainly has its flaws, but try asking British people how they feel about the NHS, rather than relying on the distortions peddled by the US media.

Actually, BBC gets down on NHS from time to time.  It's the only UK site I visit...  I have read multiple articles of folks on NHS not being able to get an appointment for weeks for things like Flu.  Who knows if it is true?  Was it true to one person, once?  Well, that certainly doesn't make it 'generally' true but it isn't false either.  We have the same problem with our system.  I am blessed to not be involved with Obamacare because that system truly is a trainwreck.

Whenever I see a study, I want to know 2 things:  First, who did the study and, second, what point are they trying to make?  Every single research paper I have ever read ended with a plea for more research ($).  Once we realize that everything we read and half of what we see is the result of 'spin', the better off we'll be.

We have the hot-button issue of Social Security.  The young folks don't want to pay in because they figure the system will go bankrupt before they can collect (may or may not be true) and the benefits are about to start eating into the defense budget.  The old folks figure that they paid in for 40 years or more, now it's time to collect.  They may feel that a huge reduction in the defense budget is a good thing.  Maybe we'd have to pull back from some of our foreign adventures.  Not an altogether bad outcome.  It'll be fun to watch over the next several years.

And everybody wants to weigh in on our election.  Outsider opinions are irrelevant but what would have happened if Britain had banned the future President of the United States?  That might have been awkward!  He could get elected, you know...


« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 09:15:20 pm by rstofer »
 

Offline vodka

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #226 on: June 13, 2016, 09:14:05 pm »
The rats always are the first at abandoning the ship when it sinks  :-DD :-DD

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Here up north I can usually get an emergency appointment with my GP the next day or, if I'm very lucky, maybe even the same day, but normal appointments usually take one or two weeks,

As here,and  is the blame  the Brussels? So no . the blame is the president for naming to the President of the Private Clinics of Catalonia as Health Advisor.

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Oh, and A&E (the British equivalent to the ER) in many hospitals is totally overrun due to the GP shortage, often with waiting times exceeding 6 hours. And that's nothing new, this has been going on for years.

As here,and  is the blame  the Brussels or Madrid? So no . the blame is the president for holding elections every two years since 2010 and every time the  idiot president  losts votes.

The victimism speech i know very fine because we carry to mash "the proccess catalonia " for 6 years ,24 hour per day .

And the british anti-european are at the first stage :"Brussels rob us ", "The british paid more than we recieved"

The second stage: "They don't understand us ", "They don't want to listen", "They aren't democratics."

The third stage: "Our the british we are locomotive from europe", "They want to dominate us", "Europe hate us"

And the last stage i don't know but  we are living  now.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #227 on: June 13, 2016, 10:28:28 pm »

"No I don't."

So do you allow KKK aand their highly offensive speeches and dress code? Do you allow burka? Do you allow advocating Sharia law? Do you allow speech's for skavery? Or any other topics you may think offensive?

"I took issue with an expression of an alien culture that serve no common purpose in my country"

So what? Many things we took for granted today were once alienn to us: science, anti slavery, same sex marriage,  equal rights for minorities, votig rights forr women, democracy, ......

If we didn't allow alien expressions, we would still be livining caves
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Offline rstofer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #228 on: June 13, 2016, 11:03:44 pm »
I'm from out of town and my opinion is irrelevant but why should the UK subsidize other countries?  Why take money from UK taxpayers and donate it to non-producers?
Subsidize is possibly the wrong word - I did say support but the essential reason is that we exist in a closed system thus what goes around tends to come around. Keeping people economically active improves their standard of living and ultimately benefits us in return.

Some folks subscribe to the 'invisible hand' theory and others a) don't know what it is or b) would rather ignore it.  On an international scale, I'm not sure what I think about it.  On a personal basis, yes, greed is good!

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Why be forced to accept uncontrolled immigration?  Especially from groups who want to retain 7th century ideas and have no intention of assimilating?  France is swamped by this issue.
Broadly speaking immigration is good for an economy because it brings young, fit, frequently well qualified workers who actually want to work and improve their lot. Movement of people/labour has been historically important in Europe for the last 3000 years and, lets face it pretty much everyone living in the USA is an immigrant as Homo Sapiens is an "old world" species.

It does backfire, of course, but the evidence is that immigrants to the UK currently contribute to the economy more than they take back. Also I think IDS has been on about the forecast of 150-250, 000 net influx out to 2030 or so. That's perhaps about the same number of workers that we need to bring into the UK over the same time period so I'm not sure it's entirely a bad thing.

Yes, we need to build houses and schools but it is not the EU's fault that we have not been doing that fast enough but successive governments who have encouraged everyone to go to 5th rate educational institutions to earn a 7th rate piss pot degree rather than running decent training schemes to equip us with the workforce that we need.


Yet here in the US, we are forced to accept uncontrolled immigration of people with little to no skills.  I am of the view that we should encourage immigration for anyone with a STEM degree.  Not so much for low skills...

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The voters of the UK are the people whose opinions count.  Do they think the UK gains more from membership than they lose?  The opinions of members of government are bought and paid for.  It's up to the voters to decide.

It is, I just don't think that watching a bunch of self-serving politicians calling each other names is going to qualify them to make the decision.

Yet for this election cycle, this is what inundates us here in the US.  I don't want either candidate to get elected.  One of them I want a little less than the other.  Either way, things don't look too good!

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In a way, BREXIT is a disrupter in the same way Trump is a disrupter.  Things won't be the same if Trump gets elected and it will be up to history to decide if that's a good thing or a bad thing.  Same for BREXIT.  Taking the disrupter path guarantees a change!

I can agree with that statement. It might even be if we manage it properly (see previous comments on British management) we will ultimately come out on top but the short term pain could well be intense and I am not sure I believe that things will be as rosy long term as the Leave campaign claim.

The UK is 4% of GDP, the EU closer to 40 - who do you think the US and China will want to negotiate favourable terms with?

I can't speak for China nor anyone else in the US but, personally, I tend to side with the UK.  Common language, mostly common ideology, long term relationship (overlooking the early years).  All in, I expect the US and UK to be able to work things out in pretty short order.

Nevertheless, we have two interesting spectacles this year.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 11:07:46 pm by rstofer »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #229 on: June 13, 2016, 11:09:08 pm »
The UK is 4% of GDP, the EU closer to 40 - who do you think the US and China will want to negotiate favourable terms with?

The UK will have to agree to TTIP, and that wil be far far worse for me (and many others) personally that any amount of EU problems.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #230 on: June 13, 2016, 11:13:47 pm »
The UK will have to agree to TTIP, and that wil be far far worse for me (and many others) personally that any amount of EU problems.
Indeed if the UK remains in the EU then we will get TTIP and in time the NHS will be opened up to US providers and who knows what happens next.
Outside the EU then TTIP looks less likely and certainly will be more open to scrutiny than the secret EU negotiations.
Insane to remain.  8)
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #231 on: June 13, 2016, 11:25:10 pm »
Throw these brits out.
:) With friends like these...

They hardly have a relevant industry left.
That's certainly not far off the mark but then again manufacturing is under great pressure from China and the increased level of automation.  It's going to be hard to be a large scale manufacturer in the future... just look at Steel... massive overcapacity in the EU.
One advantage that we do have is the English language and a pretty respectable education and research base, the digital industries seem to be doing pretty well.

Have a leeching financial section that will sink after the brexit.
Hm... I'm not going to defend financial services as a worthwhile human occupation but I will say that I would look elsewhere for the next big failures... Japan is in meltdown, no one wants their debt anymore, Greece only continues to pay any bills by being given more debt to pay back the same debtors, the Italian banks have been bust for ages and well... I wonder how Deutsche Banks balance sheet will hold up to some stress testing...  The European Central Bank is buying bond junk to prop up bond/equity prices... that won't end well.

Somehow they are delusional in thinking that they are still an important world 'power'.
Nope we gave up on any world domination ideas some time ago; it's self-preservation we are currently working on.
 

Online wraper

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #232 on: June 13, 2016, 11:35:10 pm »
Outside the EU then TTIP looks less likely and certainly will be more open to scrutiny than the secret EU negotiations.
:-DD
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #233 on: June 13, 2016, 11:41:19 pm »
The UK is 4% of GDP, the EU closer to 40 - who do you think the US and China will want to negotiate favourable terms with?

The UK will have to agree to TTIP, and that wil be far far worse for me (and many others) personally that any amount of EU problems.

Anything that has to be negotiated in secret can't be good.  For anybody...  Hopefully it crashes and burns.
 

Offline rch

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #234 on: June 13, 2016, 11:49:54 pm »
The UK is 4% of GDP, the EU closer to 40 - who do you think the US and China will want to negotiate favourable terms with?

The UK will have to agree to TTIP, and that wil be far far worse for me (and many others) personally that any amount of EU problems.

Anything that has to be negotiated in secret can't be good.  For anybody...  Hopefully it crashes and burns.

I agree TTIP is evil.   But it is worth noting that the UK government is one of its strongest proponents in the EU.  I think Brexit makes it more likely rather than less that we will sign it.

 

Offline Delta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #235 on: June 14, 2016, 12:18:11 am »


... the lights go out (and they will go out) in a few years ...

Wow!

Yes :(  Several "notices of insufficiency" have already been formally issued, but I believe not enacted. (An NoI is a warning to industrial customers that they may have their power cut)

We currently have about 3% excess generating capacity. All it takes is a couple of unscheduled outages.Many large nukes are reaching their end of life and/or having their peak capacity reduced for safety reasons. And we're closing the coal stations. And we are trying to get other countries to finance new gas generating plant.

But of course, the market wisdom is sufficient to solve all problems. Not.

That is true, but staying in the EU will keep the lights on... erm, how exactly?  The ECB can't print leccy!
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #236 on: June 14, 2016, 12:38:40 am »


... the lights go out (and they will go out) in a few years ...

Wow!

Yes :(  Several "notices of insufficiency" have already been formally issued, but I believe not enacted. (An NoI is a warning to industrial customers that they may have their power cut)

We currently have about 3% excess generating capacity. All it takes is a couple of unscheduled outages.Many large nukes are reaching their end of life and/or having their peak capacity reduced for safety reasons. And we're closing the coal stations. And we are trying to get other countries to finance new gas generating plant.
But of course, the market wisdom is sufficient to solve all problems. Not.
That is true, but staying in the EU will keep the lights on... erm, how exactly?  The ECB can't print leccy!
Simple: by mandating a minimum excess generating capacity! One of the things the EU does right is preventing governments from doing stupid things. As Wuerstchenhund wrote: nowadays people tend to vote against their own best interest and I think there is truth in that statement.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #237 on: June 14, 2016, 02:12:47 am »


Simple: by mandating a minimum excess generating capacity! One of the things the EU does right is preventing governments from doing stupid things. As Wuerstchenhund wrote: nowadays people tend to vote against their own best interest and I think there is truth in that statement.

"We know better what's good for you", this time it's a multi level scheme. What's next, the UN knows better what's good for the EU?

Drain the swamp.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #238 on: June 14, 2016, 05:45:25 am »
Yes, the NHS has many failings, as does the healthcare of any other country, but that doesn't make it incomparably worse than what rstofer acknowledges to be "an abomination".

I wouldn't call it an abomination, sure, but it's pretty much a failing system which leaves patients worse off than most other western healthcare systems.

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Dental care in the UK is probably the worst I've ever encountered in any first world country, a lot worse than in Germany and even more so than in the US.
Really? So how does the UK manage to share the crown for the healthiest teeth of any country in the world with Germany?

Aside from that the website "Top 5 of everything" isn't exactly renowned for being a credible source, had you actually read what it says you'd noticed that it talks about Dental Health of Children, and the study they cite looked at Children's teeth in 2006!  :palm:

And it seems that even for Children today's situation isn't as rosy:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/12077501/Letter-The-NHS-dental-health-system-is-unfit-for-purpose.html
(I know, it's the Torygraph, but that's just a reproduction of the original letter)

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Don't put words in my mouth. I never claimed the NHS was "the envy of the world" I just get upset when Americans assume it to be some kind of third-world hellhole.

It's no 3rd world hellhole, but it's a first world atrocity, mainly due to utter mismanagement and severe under-funding because the populace who claims to care so much about the NHS has been voting for toffs that want to replace the NHS with a US style privatized system.

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And Brits are the only nation given to "inappropriate amounts of national pride", are they?

Maybe not, but then I never heard a German claiming their system is the "envy of the world", and even for most Americans it's uncommon to think their system is superior (they just tend to believe their system is inevitable).
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 07:22:16 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #239 on: June 14, 2016, 07:17:09 am »
NHS vs Middle East example...

My father-in-law had a brain hemorrhage in the UK. It paralyzed his face and impaired his speech. As ambulance wait time was 29 minutes (despite being in a rather large city) - my mother-in-law drove him to A&E/Hospital in 8 minutes. There there was no doctor  or nurse pre-exam before 6 hours in - and then another 2 hours wait for a full doctor examination.  And then another 2 hours for medication. So total time spent - 10 hours before treatment. It was a small hemorrhage - but that was not known at the time. But it is a well known fact that brain hemorrhage needs treatment within 3 hours to minimize aftereffects.

12 months later they visit us in Dubai to welcome our first born. At the night before departure back to the UK - my father-in-law has a major stroke. Ambulance called - arrives within 3 minutes! At arrival at the A&E part of the hospital - 3 doctors! stand ready - 1 general managing doctor - 1 stroke doctor and 1 brain hemorrhage doctor. He is rolled STRAIGHT into Scanner with all 3 doctors there - they pass judgement and he is "handed" to the brain hemorrhage specialist doctor. First treatment administrated within 1 hour and 20 minutes. Stroke severity from a scale of 0-20 where 20 is fatal - doctor says about 16. My father-in-law stays in hospital for 4 weeks - and before discharge an "impact" study is done again from scale 0-20. And due to fast reaction - impact scale is only a 3 of 20. Today his is active again - swims 2-3 times a week - paints the house and is not disabled in any way apart from normal aging slightly accelerated.

Total bill from UAE hospital - nothing for first 3 days as intensive care is free/paid by government for ALL. AED 14.000,- for the 4 weeks in hospital including all medications, scans and re-training/physio - AED14.000 is GBP 2700' ish and about $3800. And as he says - had it been on NHS he would have passed away. And the UAE hospital is actually profitable.

So that is why we pay extra for private medical care even in the UK. Minor issues we take to NHS - but major stuff - never ever - straight to the private hospital.

 NHS is caught up in the usual Union battles where a nurse can't change a light-bulb without reprisal from the caretakers union (or what ever "union" they "stole" the work from) - the same thing that killed the Danish medical care system. As system that does not allow or inspire individual decision making or action taking - and fosters a bureaucracy huge and heavy.

But that is not EU's fault (mostly) :)
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #240 on: June 14, 2016, 07:19:58 am »
The UK will have to agree to TTIP, and that wil be far far worse for me (and many others) personally that any amount of EU problems.
Indeed if the UK remains in the EU then we will get TTIP and in time the NHS will be opened up to US providers and who knows what happens next.
Outside the EU then TTIP looks less likely and certainly will be more open to scrutiny than the secret EU negotiations.

I suggest you go back and look at the news reports over the past couple of years (i.e. before the referendum nonsense startedd)

You will find that (1) the UK government is far more pro-TTIP than the EU and (2) only the EU is fighting back against it. (And is large enough to offer resistance)

Conclusion: TTIP's effects will be worse if we leave.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #241 on: June 14, 2016, 07:27:39 am »
NHS vs Middle East example...
... which completely ignores the very basic distinction that the UAE has a far higher per-capita income than the UK, and so can afford it.

OTOH, in the UK surgeons that could personally financially benefit from operating privately choose to advise their patients to have the op done in an NHS hospital. Why? Because if there's a problem at private hospital, they call an ambulance and transfer you to the NHS hospital!

Such selfless advice has been given 100% of the time to my family, in different hospitals, for different operations - it is not a one-off exception.

Having tried both NHS and private options personally, the only advantages of private operations are a better paint colour scheme and more obsequious nursing staff.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline Jeroen3

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #242 on: June 14, 2016, 07:34:56 am »
People vote against their interest all the time. Hitler was elected, Mussolini, too. For a more recent example, just look at the 2015 general elections in the UK, or the fellowship of Trump.
We've got one!
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #243 on: June 14, 2016, 07:36:18 am »
I wonder what happens to the credit rating of UK after a Brexit, from AAA to  :-//
If it tumbles so will the interest rise on their debt and ouch second largest external debt in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/25/brexit-vote-would-affect-uks-top-credit-score-says-standard-and-poor
 

Offline StuUK

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #244 on: June 14, 2016, 07:37:44 am »
People vote against their interest all the time. Hitler was elected, Mussolini, too. For a more recent example, just look at the 2015 general elections in the UK, or the fellowship of Trump.
We've got one!

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Offline 3db

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #245 on: June 14, 2016, 07:51:45 am »
Throw these brits out. They hardly have a relevant industry left. Have a leeching financial section that will sink after the brexit.
Somehow they are delusional in thinking that they are still an important world 'power'.

But our GDP is at least 3 times that of NL and I'd be surprised if we don't contribute more to the EU than NL.

3DB      :rant:
 

Offline onesixright

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #246 on: June 14, 2016, 07:54:14 am »
United we stand, divided we fall.

I don't think you solve problems by leaving. You solve it by talking. Giving up your seat on the table, makes it only harder.

EU should top its endless drift for expansion, and put things in order within the EU.

If you can't stop drugs, people trafficking, etc. Why would you think you can close the borders for terrorists? Its a ludicrous idea, that you can close the border air-tight, even when living on a island. A terrorists is -in a sense- in each and everyone of us, poke them long enough and it will cause (tragic) problems.

When it comes to refugees, I think, each EU country should accept a (equal) % of their own population. They should be spread via a lottery system. If you are running for terror, bullets flying over your head, etc. we should help them. However, I don't think they can pick and choose (ala cart) where they can go. Even better, need to stop people want to flee in the first place. The war in the middle east could be solved long ago, we are just not (truly) committed to end it.

And for Putin. Why the hell they didn't add Russia to the NATO after the wall came down? Problem solved? Of course not, they need a enemy (for both sides). The public opinion is very easily manipulated. Maybe people should have a license to vote (and while we are going, a license to raise children ... )?

We need to realise that everyday we are f*cked over by the politicians that we elect. They only take care of themselves. So how do we make sure they do what we (the people want)?

Time for Democracy 2.0?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 08:02:57 am by onesixright »
 
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Offline kaz911

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #247 on: June 14, 2016, 07:54:33 am »
NHS vs Middle East example...
... which completely ignores the very basic distinction that the UAE has a far higher per-capita income than the UK, and so can afford it.


I think you ignored me writing the hospital is PROFITABLE. Only the first 3 days of intensive care is subsidized/paid by the Government. All other hospital income is paid for by the users. So it has nothing to do with per capita income.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #248 on: June 14, 2016, 08:01:01 am »
I'm from out of town and my opinion is irrelevant but why should the UK subsidize other countries?  Why take money from UK taxpayers and donate it to non-producers?
Subsidize is possibly the wrong word - I did say support but the essential reason is that we exist in a closed system thus what goes around tends to come around. Keeping people economically active improves their standard of living and ultimately benefits us in return.
The UK is one of the most generous countries there is, with regards to foreign aid. Why do we need the EU telling us who to donate our money to? What if we decided to stop donating to the Europe and put our money into poorer parts of the world, where it's needed more?


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Yes, we need to build houses and schools but it is not the EU's fault that we have not been doing that fast enough but successive governments who have encouraged everyone to go to 5th rate educational institutions to earn a 7th rate piss pot degree rather than running decent training schemes to equip us with the workforce that we need.
Yes it is the EU's fault we've not being building schools and houses fast enough to keep up.

When immigration is controlled by the government, the government can reliably react to population growth because it's relatively stable and predictable. If more children are born, then their births will be registered so the government knows to more school places will be required in five years time and more houses need to be built over the next twenty years. Now anyone can just hop over the channel at any point, resulting in unpredictable population growth and chaos.
 
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #249 on: June 14, 2016, 09:10:17 am »
NHS vs Middle East example...
... which completely ignores the very basic distinction that the UAE has a far higher per-capita income than the UK, and so can afford it.
Per capita GDP is about 1.5x the UK (although I suspect that is not the whole story).

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I think you ignored me writing the hospital is PROFITABLE. Only the first 3 days of intensive care is subsidized/paid by the Government. All other hospital income is paid for by the users. So it has nothing to do with per capita income.
It seems unliely if they are charging only $3800 for a month's care. Post stroke care needs a fairly large team of specialist physios and occupational therapists - try costing aup a month's stay in an acute stroke unit in the US.

I would be interested to know the date of your father's first presentation - evidence for thrombolysis in acute ischaemic stroke was coming in around 2007-2008, admittedly the NHS was a little slow off the ground but today, if you presented to a hospital with an acute stroke unit today you should be in the CT scanner within an hour, probably within 30 minutes as you are correct in that thrombolysis (clot dissolving) therapy should be given within three hours of symptoms developing.

As for haemorrhagic strokes - management is still "conservative" - there is no real role for surgery and initial therapy is supportive, perhaps managing raised ntracranial pressure helps. Certainly treatment in a specialist unit helps improve outcomes.

The NHS is not without its problems, certainly, it was dire in the 1970's worse in the 1980's and then got markedly better with increased resources. Unfortunately it has been going downhill again recently and it is clear that Cameron's plan is to get it off the government's balance sheet and sod the effect on care.

As for private care in the UK - well, I do have private insurance, but would not want anything major done in a private hospital. It certainly would not have helped you in the case of an acute stroke.

But the NHS is tangential to the current argument - except for Vote Leave blathering on (largely dishonestly) about how  much more money we would have to spend on the Nash if we pull out of Europe - deliberately linking the current state of the NHS with our membership of the EU when it has pretty much bugger all to do with it.

I note that the Vote Leave campaign has promised all sorts of monies would be available if we pull out - amounting to rather more than even their inflated estimates of how much EU membership costs us.

Quote from: Hero99
Yes it is the EU's fault we've not being building schools and houses fast enough to keep up.

When immigration is controlled by the government, the government can reliably react to population growth because it's relatively stable and predictable. If more children are born, then their births will be registered so the government knows to more school places will be required in five years time and more houses need to be built over the next twenty years. Now anyone can just hop over the channel at any point, resulting in unpredictable population growth and chaos.
No, it is not - the shortfall in housing extends back 20-30 years due to massive reduction in local authority building programmes and the immigration that everyone is worrying about dates back over the last 8-10 years.



If you believe government will reliably react to anything then you have a lot more fath in politicians than I do.
 


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