Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 353016 times)

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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #250 on: June 14, 2016, 09:34:04 am »
As for private care in the UK - well, I do have private insurance, but would not want anything major done in a private hospital.

Precisely. That was the case for one of the surgeries I alluded to.

Fortunately I was able to persuade the NHS to bill the insurance company for a remarkably low £24000 (two world class surgeons, 8 hour operation).
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline rolycat

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #251 on: June 14, 2016, 10:59:11 am »
Quote
Quote
Dental care in the UK is probably the worst I've ever encountered in any first world country, a lot worse than in Germany and even more so than in the US.
Really? So how does the UK manage to share the crown for the healthiest teeth of any country in the world with Germany?

Aside from that the website "Top 5 of everything" isn't exactly renowned for being a credible source, had you actually read what it says you'd noticed that it talks about Dental Health of Children, and the study they cite looked at Children's teeth in 2006!  :palm:
The source was the OECD, which is generally regarded as fairly credible. Astonishingly enough I did read what it says, which is why I noticed that you conveniently omitted that it was the latest data available as of April 2015. And the health of children's teeth provides a better indicator of prevailing standards of care.

You can find anecdotal evidence to support whatever you want to believe, but your claim that dental care in the UK is "the worst" is demonstrably false. For a more nuanced assessment, take a look at this BBC article, which references a recent World Health Organisation report.
 

Offline 3db

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #252 on: June 14, 2016, 11:18:17 am »
Throw these brits out. They hardly have a relevant industry left. Have a leeching financial section that will sink after the brexit.

Please throw us out !!
Aerospace sector ?
Pharmaceutical sector ?
Defense sector ?

 |O



« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 11:20:48 am by 3db »
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #253 on: June 14, 2016, 11:25:13 am »
Looks like it is a spammer, he posted the same thing last page under a different username.
 
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Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #254 on: June 14, 2016, 11:26:57 am »
"
And for Putin. Why the hell they didn't add Russia to the NATO after the wall came down? Problem solved? Of course not, they need a enemy (for both sides)."

Yeah. Some recently declassified documents suggest that Russia tried to join thee NATO and was turned down, giving birth to the Warsaw pack and the cold war, which potentially could have wiped out humanity.

Who is behind all this? Just look at who benefited from this.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #255 on: June 14, 2016, 11:31:10 am »
Who is behind all this? Just look at who benefited from this.
I never thought of you as a conspiracy theorist, more like a "give me the clear numbers and I tell you what is going on".
So who benefitted? Arm dealers? naaah they don't sell nuclear arms (yet).
Defense contractors? Hmmm maybe but they are still peanuts compared to Apple for instance  :)
But I do wonder where all the arms come from when somewhere a war is going on that nobody wants. There are only a few countries that make arms and they were supposed to be against the war in Syria, so where the hell do all the guns come from? Follow the moneytrail  ;)
 

Offline FrankD

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #256 on: June 14, 2016, 12:46:58 pm »
Looks like it is a spammer, he posted the same thing last page under a different username.

Not a spammer. Somebody stole my line.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #257 on: June 14, 2016, 01:16:21 pm »
"But I do wonder where all the arms come from when somewhere a war is going on that nobody wants. "

Lots of people want that war, for different reasons. Some are known, and others speculated.

Many more arr working hard against their own interests too.
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Offline Zero999

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #258 on: June 14, 2016, 01:36:09 pm »
No, it is not - the shortfall in housing extends back 20-30 years due to massive reduction in local authority building programmes and the immigration that everyone is worrying about dates back over the last 8-10 years.
As far as housing is concerned, yes the UK shares some of the blame but the EU is hardly blameless.

Education is another matter though.  There was no way to predict the massive increase in school age children and the fact that a lot of them don't have English as a first language doesn't help either.

Quote
If you believe government will reliably react to anything then you have a lot more fath in politicians than I do.
I have more faith in the the UK government than I do in the EU politburo.
 

Offline onesixright

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #259 on: June 14, 2016, 01:37:40 pm »
Wel one reason:

Zeitgeist:

The world is a sick place...


 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #260 on: June 14, 2016, 02:59:59 pm »
Education is another matter though.  There was no way to predict the massive increase in school age children and the fact that a lot of them don't have English as a first language doesn't help either.

Quote
If you believe government will reliably react to anything then you have a lot more fath in politicians than I do.
I have more faith in the the UK government than I do in the EU politburo.

OK, yes migration has had an impact on school numbers. there is a review here http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/365

One pertinent comment is:

"In 2013 there were a recorded 779,000 births in the UK of which 25% (197,000) were to non-UK born mothers. This compares with 669,000 births in the UK in 2002 of which 17% (110,500) were to non-UK born mothers."

So, 110,000 more births per annum (an increase of 16.4%) of which 86,500 were attributable to migration, plus perhaps an additional 10,000 per year under 15's who were born outside the UK. Also there was some increase of about 23,500 extra births to mothers themselves born in the UK so there is a general upward trend at present. Also note that we have not broken down that figure into EU and non EU, nor looked at the impact of the migration from the 2004 expansion of the EU (predominantly Poland) or the 2007 expansion (Bulgaria and Romania).

But the problem I have here is that a government who is able to "reliably react to change" has, on average, 4.5 years to provide a primary school place and 11.5 years to provide a secondary school place - remember these are births we are talkng about predominantly, not direct migration.

Despite this there is a shortfall which the government could have easily predicted and reacted to - but failed to do so adequately. It's not as if the parents of the extra kids are not, on the whole, economically active (see previous discussion) - so they were contributing to the tax revenues needed to increase school places.

On the general question of the cost of EU membership this is a good graphc which breaks down government spending of tax revenue.



Note the very tiny slice which goes to the EU.



« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 03:55:01 pm by grumpydoc »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #261 on: June 14, 2016, 03:39:06 pm »
I have more faith in the the UK government than I do in the EU politburo.

I don't, having seen the UK politician's actions and inactions over the decades. That continues: the standard of the current debate is a national disgrace, and all sides are lying through their teeth.

The only significant question is which side is telling the more egregious self-serving lies. Currently it looks like the exit shower are marginally worse.

I'd love to find a way of skewering the current UK (and other) political classes, but unfortunately voting exit will skewer me more than it will skewer them :(
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #262 on: June 14, 2016, 04:42:35 pm »
The only significant question is which side is telling the more egregious self-serving lies.

Your own claim that the lights will go off a few years after the exit was also kind of out there.
Drain the swamp.
 

Online Jeroen3

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #263 on: June 14, 2016, 04:56:27 pm »
No. The United Kingdom is better than Venezuela. The lights won't go out.
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #264 on: June 14, 2016, 05:14:33 pm »
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 05:53:32 pm by grumpydoc »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #265 on: June 14, 2016, 05:24:20 pm »
The only significant question is which side is telling the more egregious self-serving lies.
Your own claim that the lights will go off a few years after the exit was also kind of out there.

Firstly that's a strawman argument: I was making the point about (lack of) sovereignty not about whether it was more likely in/out.

Secondly, they will go out in a few years - unless significant amounts of new generating plant are brought online. I've been to IET meetings where that (rhetorical) question has been posed by those that are extremely knowledgable about the supply industry; that was their answer. That is true whether we are inside or outside the EU.

"National Grid has for the first time [2015-11-04] used “last resort” emergency powers to tell companies to reduce their electricity usage in an effort to avoid the risk of blackouts." https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/04/national-grid-issues-urgent-call-for-extra-power

"O’Hara said [National] Grid’s own models suggest that between 7-10 further NISMs may occur over winter, but that other variables could lead to more or fewer market alerts." Fortunately (?) it was a very warm winter. http://theenergyst.com/national-grid-plays-down-blackout-fears/

"The UK is facing an unprecedented “energy gap” in a decade’s time, according to engineers, with demand for electricity likely to outstrip supply by more than 40%, which could lead to blackouts." https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jan/26/engineers-warn-of-looming-uk-energy-gap

Finally, there is a secondary question as to whether the investment is more/less likely to be made when we are in/out. That is intensely political, e.g. EDF's finance director resigned very publically over political pressure (to close a deal) from the French government. Is that political pressure more/less likely to occur if we are in/out?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 05:28:32 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #266 on: June 14, 2016, 05:29:20 pm »
The United Kingdom is better than Venezuela. The lights won't go out.

Yes, and no. See my previous post.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #267 on: June 14, 2016, 05:30:41 pm »
That is true whether we are inside or outside the EU.

Ok, I thought that you are tying the lights-off to Brexit, now I understand you don't.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #268 on: June 14, 2016, 05:35:21 pm »
That is true whether we are inside or outside the EU.
Ok, I thought that you are tying the lights-off to Brexit, now I understand you don't.

Due to the intense political activity in this area, I think lights out is marginally more likely to happen if we Brexit.

Lights going out will cause riots in the streets. "Loss of sovereignty" hasn't caused anything remotely like that. Hence any imagined sovereignty is demonstrably less important.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #269 on: June 14, 2016, 06:10:50 pm »


That is true whether we are inside or outside the EU.
Ok, I thought that you are tying the lights-off to Brexit, now I understand you don't.

Due to the intense political activity in this area, I think lights out is marginally more likely to happen if we Brexit.

Lights going out will cause riots in the streets. "Loss of sovereignty" hasn't caused anything remotely like that. Hence any imagined sovereignty is demonstrably less important.

So, marginally more likely riots in the streets due to lights off if Brexit?  :)

All that FUD will go away after the vote, regardless of the outcome.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #270 on: June 14, 2016, 07:58:05 pm »
I see that the perennial bellwether of elections, referenda and a quality publication to boot, The Sun newspaper has come out today as a BeLeaver (excuse the pun).

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1277920/we-urge-our-readers-to-believe-in-britain-and-vote-to-leave-the-eu-in-referendum-on-june-23/

For the uninitiated, The Sun, a Murdoch rag and regular purveyor of facsimiles of the female form, has sucessfully backed pretty much every vote I can remember over the past 30 years or so. Whether they have pulled the right straw on this one remains to be seen.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 08:06:22 pm by Howardlong »
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #271 on: June 14, 2016, 09:16:12 pm »
Whether they have pulled the right straw on this one remains to be seen.
Hm.  So a bit like my SatNav... gets it wrong for most of the trip and then converges on the correct arrival time as you approach your destination?
Should be a fun day tomorrow, I'll be down by the Thames riverside to cheer the fishing flotilla as it heads up to Westminster.
Insane to remain.
 

Offline rch

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #272 on: June 14, 2016, 09:26:31 pm »


That is true whether we are inside or outside the EU.
Ok, I thought that you are tying the lights-off to Brexit, now I understand you don't.

Due to the intense political activity in this area, I think lights out is marginally more likely to happen if we Brexit.

Lights going out will cause riots in the streets. "Loss of sovereignty" hasn't caused anything remotely like that. Hence any imagined sovereignty is demonstrably less important.

So, marginally more likely riots in the streets due to lights off if Brexit?  :)

All that FUD will go away after the vote, regardless of the outcome.

Well, firstly it's a bit more on topic than Brexit, and secondly we have been slipping gradually towards an electricity supply disaster since we sold the Central Electricity Generating Board thirty years ago to various crooks who were overjoyed to find they had purchased no responsibility for supply resilience.  And things that might happen in twenty years are of no interest to politicians. 

Now a solution that will certainly take more than ten years seems to be of similarly little interest.   The politicians are just hoping they won't be the ones in charge when we start having rotating power cuts.
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #273 on: June 14, 2016, 09:45:19 pm »
So what? Many things we took for granted today were once alienn to us: science, anti slavery, same sex marriage,  equal rights for minorities, votig rights forr women, democracy, ......

If we didn't allow alien expressions, we would still be livining caves

You are rambling somewhat incomprehensibly and are still inventing stuff that you imagine I said or think, so I'll answer what appear to be a question.

All those are internal changes to a society, so it's a debate of consent amongst ourselves.
Immigration is fundamentally a debate over accommodating external cultures.

Nobody in the UK has consented to the mass importation of a goat herding culture, simply because we don't have enough goats to go around, and we'd rather our community resources be reserved for people who are still useful in the 12th/21st century.

We are never going to run short of Jewish Scientists or Indian Doctors, so why bother trying to accommodate anyone from cultures that fundamentally don't fit in.
There is never going to be a time when we run short of our incumbent followers of sky pixies, of which 50% in the UK are homophobic, thus importing more makes no sense.
There is never going to be a time when we can say, "yep none of our sky pixie residents are going to go postal and kill 50 LGBT people", because sky pixie people are all turning out to be inherently unpredictable. It costs under an absolute fortune for our intelligence departments to monitor them 24/7/365.

How many new hashtags and midnight candles do we want to repeat before admitting that diversity which bloody mindedly insists on including this religion isn't working, that 1%-99% of their culture hates us and that's a good enough reason not to put up with their shit any more.
Yes it sucks to be a moderate Arab but religious violence and hate is their cultural baggage, not ours, the Left needs to stop making excuses for a homophobic, misogynistic, medieval culture.
Being a religion/minority/different colour is amazingly not an excuse to inflict your retarded shit on other countries.

« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 09:55:50 pm by bitslice »
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #274 on: June 14, 2016, 10:05:36 pm »
The politicians are just hoping they won't be the ones in charge when we start having rotating power cuts.
Amother infamous example of such myopia is, of course, paying for the building works on the Houses of Parliament.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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