Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 349275 times)

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Offline rstofer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #350 on: June 16, 2016, 09:27:26 pm »
And equalizing (or trying to) so many varied countries with radically different social, political, economic and financial structures is never going to work well.  Some will always be coming out ahead and some falling behind.  Countries ought to be competing with each other for the best immigrants, for business, for the best educators and workers and to deliver the most productive and efficient framework of laws to their citizens.
That won't work in today's global economy. I see you are from the US. For a moment imagine each state will have it's own language, currency and radically different regulations. How easy would it be to trade between those states and how competitive would each state be compared to China or India?
Europe used to be that patchwork of countries, languages and currencies about 2 to 3 decades ago. Sometimes you need to team up to keep up with the competition.

Instead, the US has the Commerce Clause which allows the Feds to impose their rules on the States in the name of Commerce.  Even when there is no apparent commerce component to the law.  Everything affects interstate commerce and that's how it is.

At various times in our history, it has been illegal for individuals to grow food for personal consumption because it affects farm prices, hence Interstate Commerce.  Growers wouldn't be buyers...
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #351 on: June 16, 2016, 09:30:53 pm »
The news that Jo Cox MP has been murdered

Jo Cox's first speech in parliament was about the benefits of immigration and integration.

I'm not surprised someone finally snapped, Labour has been talking down to the working class for a decade.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #352 on: June 16, 2016, 09:38:47 pm »
Relly? :o  and american critical thinking is to actually vote for Trump?

He is a far better choice than the alternative.  First of all, he's a proven disrupter.  The status quo won't survive.  That's not entirely a bad thing.  Many foreign leaders have already made their opinions known so we know where to cut off funding.  I don't think we'll be hanging around in the Middle East and, with luck and planning, maybe we'll be out of eastern Europe before the fireworks start.

There will probably be some other disruptions in foreign relations and I'm all for that!

The alternative brings with her a pending storm.  Little Chelsea wants to be President just like her mommy and daddy.  We really don't do dynasties around here and getting this stopped in its tracks is a good idea.

 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #353 on: June 16, 2016, 09:44:48 pm »
Really? :o  and american critical thinking is to actually vote for Trump?

There are several reasons why a rationale American citizen would prefer Trump over Hillary but this belong to a different topic.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline rch

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #354 on: June 16, 2016, 09:47:31 pm »
The news that Jo Cox MP has been murdered

Jo Cox's first speech in parliament was about the benefits of immigration and integration.

I'm not surprised someone finally snapped, Labour has been talking down to the working class for a decade.

So she had been specifically targeted in Britain First and similar publications then?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #355 on: June 16, 2016, 09:54:52 pm »
Relly? :o  and american critical thinking is to actually vote for Trump?
He is a far better choice than the alternative.  First of all, he's a proven disrupter.  The status quo won't survive.  That's not entirely a bad thing.  Many foreign leaders have already made their opinions known so we know where to cut off funding.
I don't think so. When Trump becomes president he'll be like a spoiled kid in kindergarten throwing around mud. Nobody will be interested in what he says or does! Remember many laws and actions will need political support in the senate. Look at other activistic (usually right-wing) politicians who get elected. They achieve nothing because they are egocentric and have no clue about how the political system works. If Trump thinks he can run a country like his company he is in for a very nasty surprise.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #356 on: June 16, 2016, 10:08:45 pm »
Really? :o  and american critical thinking is to actually vote for Trump?
...
...

I am sure some critical thinkers may not vote for him, but I am also sure that anyone who thinks at all would certainly be considering what Trump is offering with interest.  Trump is promoting self-preservation verses the self-destruction we have been experiencing for the past few years.  I have been in the USofA for 40 years now, I have not seen our country is such sad shape today - Carter years included.

One may argue with Trump's methods, but self-preservation is only ingored by non-thinkers.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #357 on: June 16, 2016, 10:16:12 pm »
Vote against Clinton is easy: look at what votting 50 years for career politians have done for the average person.

Unfortunately, voting for Trump isn't as easy.
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Offline bitslice

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #358 on: June 16, 2016, 10:20:34 pm »
So she had been specifically targeted in Britain First and similar publications then?

I've no idea, Britain First isn't exactly Combat 18, and most Right wing groups have enough sense to avoid trouble simply because of how the Right wing is treated in the UK.

Look at any immigration protest and you'll find a Right wing group being kettled by the Police while UAF thugs are free to throw bricks, this then gets reported as a Right wing riot  :-//
The media has two faces on this, you can't use the word "muslim" in a Daily Mail comment because they censor all the words that relate to the issue. They pretend to have a sympathetic agenda, but all they actually publish are click bait articles designed to manipulate their readers into thinking they are on the same side.

It is a sign of the break down of Democracy, immigration has been the number one concern for years, yet both parties bizarrely continue to present this as some kind of financial issue.

The same thing happened in Germany when Reker was stabbed. Just stop for a second and think about this, politicians are being physically attacked simply because they'd rather push their own agenda than listen to the working class. That's how big the gap is between what people think and what the media is telling them to think.
Hence Brexit, nobody has a clue about the financial implications, this is all just a knee jerk reaction to Merkel losing the plot and destroying Germany.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 10:24:10 pm by bitslice »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #359 on: June 16, 2016, 10:30:01 pm »
One may argue with Trump's methods, but self-preservation is only ingored by non-thinkers.

Self preservation, pragmatism before ideology, avoiding identity politics, facing reality as is without a dense smoke screen of political correctness, and avoiding a blind adherence to the status quo.

The last two presidents here were no good.  From the wars in the middle east (over estimating benefit/cost), the rise of ISIS ('a JV team') doubling our national debt (each on his own), restricting the healthcare insurance market (try to change carrier mid year), more people on food stamps, decline in good jobs, terror attacks, and rampant illegal immigration.

A rational American has many reasons not voting for more-of-the-same.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 10:36:36 pm by zapta »
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #360 on: June 16, 2016, 11:16:17 pm »
...
...
The media has two faces on this, you can't use the word "muslim" in a Daily Mail comment because they censor all the words that relate to the issue. They pretend to have a sympathetic agenda, but all they actually publish are click bait articles designed to manipulate their readers into thinking they are on the same side.
...
...
Hence Brexit, nobody has a clue about the financial implications, this is all just a knee jerk reaction to Merkel losing the plot and destroying Germany.

And now the funniest part.  Those protesting in the UK against Muslim immigration (or Trump people in the USA), they are called NAZIS and Fascists by the Press.

But, a brief review of NAZI history will show that the largest group of non-Aryans in the SS were the Muslims (13th Walfen SS division and 21st Walfen SS division).  Some were granted Honorary Aryan status.   Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al-Husseini recruited many more for the SS, so many that even Hitler met personally with Amin al-Husseini.

They being the Press, I know they can write but I am not at all sure they can read if they missed such significant historical fact.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 11:23:42 pm by Rick Law »
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #361 on: June 17, 2016, 12:05:52 am »
That won't work in today's global economy. I see you are from the US. For a moment imagine each state will have it's own language, currency and radically different regulations. How easy would it be to trade between those states and how competitive would each state be compared to China or India?
Europe used to be that patchwork of countries, languages and currencies about 2 to 3 decades ago. Sometimes you need to team up to keep up with the competition.

But it does work.  China does huge quantities of business with Britain and the rest of the EU and they have radically different laws, timezones, languages, cultures and social/economic structures.  And there is no common EU language, so being part of the EU doesn't do anything about the language differences.  Not everyone in the EU uses the same currency, but currency differences are just about a non-issue these days.  I can change the currency on sites like eBay to whatever I want, and I can buy product in any country with members selling on the site.  I am totally abstracted from the mechanisms of currency trading on the back end. 

Most of the EU countries are economically and socially relatively similar - well, compared to somewhere like Chile or Malaysia or Nigeria anyway.  The commonality of laws offers little benefit, and I would argue (strongly) that whatever value is gained is more than lost when the technocrats come up with stupid bullshit like RoHS.

Trade agreements and currency/legal unions are different and unrelated things.  There's no need to harmonize laws just to engage in trade.  And, while I am sure it's an unpopular view among the most lefty of readers, countries ought to be acting in the best interests of their citizens, not in the best interests of society around the world.  If Britain is giving more than it's getting, they do their citizens a disservice by staying in.  And if Britain has more "power" (economically, socially, financially) than someone else, they should be leveraging that to get the best deal possible for British people. 

I would say the EU has done a pretty piss-poor job of handling the small number of crises that have been dealt it so far - and it hasn't really solved much of anything.  I don't think there's any evidence that the member countries would be worse off if they'd stayed separate.  It's all going to end in tears, as my mom used to say.  Unions like the EU will never last because it's trying to meld things which are just too different.

It should just be a trade union and nothing more.  That's all it needs to be. 
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Offline Marco

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #362 on: June 17, 2016, 01:34:54 am »
If we get a Sunni muslim majority in western Europe I think they'll be able to get together in one nation without too many problems.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #363 on: June 17, 2016, 09:47:59 am »
My biggest problem with this kind of polls (and we had the same problems here in holland with the oekrain poll) is that people are mis- or mal- informed.
I am not saying that you should stay or leave but if you make a decision at least you would like to know all the facts before you make such a decision.
Well yesterdays newspaper states that there is a huge misconception on what people in the UK think and the reality.
Translation:
Misconceptions of the british population about the EU
Left column: What the british think                                 Right colum: reality

   Percentage of EU immigrants dat are part of the british population
              15%                                                                        5%

  Percentage of the britisch childsupport being paid to children in the EU
                8%                                                                      0,3%

  Percentage of the budget spent on the EU civil service (bureaucracy if you like)
               27%                                                                     6%

  Participation (share) of the EU in the total investments in Great Brittain
               30%                                                                     48%

 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #364 on: June 17, 2016, 10:23:36 am »
Misconceptions of the british population about the EU
Left column: What the british think                                 Right colum: reality

   Percentage of EU immigrants dat are part of the british population
              15%                                                                        5%

  Percentage of the britisch childsupport being paid to children in the EU
                8%                                                                      0,3%

  Percentage of the budget spent on the EU civil service (bureaucracy if you like)
               27%                                                                     6%

  Participation (share) of the EU in the total investments in Great Brittain
               30%                                                                     48%
This is, of course, the problem - there is always a gulf between reality and perception and there are always fears which politicians can use for leverage. If you are white and of a certain background and political leaning living in one of our larger cities you are much more likely to perceive that it is "invaded by foreigners" than welcome the fact of living in a vibrant multi-ethnic society. You are also likely to assume everyone that you see with a dark face is an immigrant whereas the reality most will have been born here, to parents who were born here.

I don't normally give Polly Toynbee much time but I think that she hit the right note in this article The mood is is ugly, and an MP is dead. The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #365 on: June 17, 2016, 11:06:43 am »
I don't normally give Polly Toynbee much time but I think that she hit the right note in this article The mood is is ugly, and an MP is dead. The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

I'll give her time - but I don't always agree with her. In this case we both think she is right :(

This whole febrile atmosphere was also descibed as Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt . Something similar is happening in the US.

There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline rch

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #366 on: June 17, 2016, 11:35:29 am »
I don't normally give Polly Toynbee much time but I think that she hit the right note in this article The mood is is ugly, and an MP is dead. The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

I'll give her time - but I don't always agree with her. In this case we both think she is right :(

This whole febrile atmosphere was also descibed as Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt . Something similar is happening in the US.

The sad thing is they seem to want to 'revolt' against every poor mug (preferably smaller than them) except the big corporation bosses who put them where they are and invited the immigrants.  And they obediently support the bosses' demands to weaken trade unions.  It's a strange world!
 

Offline doobedoobedo

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Offline Howardlong

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #368 on: June 17, 2016, 01:42:13 pm »
The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

Errrr, and what race card would that be exactly? From where I'm sitting, remain supporters have been repeatedly accusing a very large proportion of the electorate of being racist just because they have a different opinion to them on whether the UK should be in or out of the EU. It cheapens what racism is, and degrades the gravity of instances of real racism. Accusing someone you don't agree with by calling them a racist is like using the old loaded question "when did you stop beating your wife?", it's a lazy way to shut people up because you don't want to enter into reasoned debate.

Just to be clear, there is a very big difference between saying I'd rather not be in the EU and being a racist.

Edit: I agree yesterday's Farage poster is unacceptable, but he is not the Leave campaign on his own. I can also come up with plenty of other nonsense on both sides too.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 01:52:14 pm by Howardlong »
 
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Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #369 on: June 17, 2016, 01:54:47 pm »
Quote
what race card would that be exactly?

It is racist to enforce the laws of the nation;
It is racist to hold elected officials to the laws of the nation;
It is racist to want to treat everyone equally;
It is racist to want to just everyone on their own characters.
...

If MLK were a live today and said what he said about having  a dream, he would be labeled a racist too:

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

We are a deeply racist country not because of the people but because of the policies our politicians have put in place that explicitly and forcibly judge each of us on the color of our skins, or our body parts for that matter.
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #370 on: June 17, 2016, 02:14:36 pm »
The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

Errrr, and what race card would that be exactly
Farrage's poster was completely unacceptable, I'm glad you agree.

Playing on fears of mass immigration then, but claiming that we are going to be overrun by unskilled migrants (with particular emphasis on countries like Turkey) who only want to come here to live on benefits is a racist argument.

Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.

Not to mention Boris's comments re Obama as a method of undermining his message.





 

Offline MT

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #371 on: June 17, 2016, 02:17:50 pm »
Quote
what race card would that be exactly?

It is racist to enforce the laws of the nation;
It is racist to hold elected officials to the laws of the nation;
It is racist to want to treat everyone equally;
It is racist to want to just everyone on their own characters.
...

If MLK were a live today and said what he said about having  a dream, he would be labeled a racist too:

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

We are a deeply racist country not because of the people but because of the policies our politicians have put in place that explicitly and forcibly judge each of us on the color of our skins, or our body parts for that matter.

And as usually it boils down to a population actually voting in these politicians, please put your self in front  of a mirror, watch your personal fascism, arrogance, ignorance and all other narcissistic characters you consist of, now try to improve your self, it wont be easy but as a start dont vote for the Mussolini impersonator toad, the communist or the dynasty! Use rime and reason and rational critical thinking that exclude said "characters".
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 02:27:36 pm by MT »
 

Offline MT

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #372 on: June 17, 2016, 02:25:06 pm »
The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

Errrr, and what race card would that be exactly? From where I'm sitting, remain supporters have been repeatedly accusing a very large proportion of the electorate of being racist just because they have a different opinion to them on whether the UK should be in or out of the EU. It cheapens what racism is, and degrades the gravity of instances of real racism. Accusing someone you don't agree with by calling them a racist is like using the old loaded question "when did you stop beating your wife?", it's a lazy way to shut people up because you don't want to enter into reasoned debate.

Just to be clear, there is a very big difference between saying I'd rather not be in the EU and being a racist.

Edit: I agree yesterday's Farage poster is unacceptable, but he is not the Leave campaign on his own. I can also come up with plenty of other nonsense on both sides too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/suspected-killer-of-british-lawmaker-jo-cox-ties-neo-nazi-ties-group-says/2016/06/17/2067ea0a-33ef-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html

The swedish hope-that-Britton leaves party has it roots in Natzi culture!

As far as im concerned  fascism , communism, natzism is all the same brown brain shit, same smell just slightly different color!
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #373 on: June 17, 2016, 02:29:00 pm »
The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

Errrr, and what race card would that be exactly? From where I'm sitting, remain supporters have been repeatedly accusing a very large proportion of the electorate of being racist just because they have a different opinion to them on whether the UK should be in or out of the EU. It cheapens what racism is, and degrades the gravity of instances of real racism. Accusing someone you don't agree with by calling them a racist is like using the old loaded question "when did you stop beating your wife?", it's a lazy way to shut people up because you don't want to enter into reasoned debate.

Just to be clear, there is a very big difference between saying I'd rather not be in the EU and being a racist.

Edit: I agree yesterday's Farage poster is unacceptable, but he is not the Leave campaign on his own. I can also come up with plenty of other nonsense on both sides too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/suspected-killer-of-british-lawmaker-jo-cox-ties-neo-nazi-ties-group-says/2016/06/17/2067ea0a-33ef-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html

The swedish hope-that-Britton leaves party has it roots in Natzi culture!

As far as im concerned  fascism , communism, natzism is all the same brown brain shit, same smell just slightly different color!

The perp had known mental problems. It is exceptionally lazy and unhelpful to assume that all those who vote in a certain way in this referendum share the same deranged ideology.

In addition, there is as yet no official connection drawn between the acts of this nutter and the Brexit campaigns, and much as it is easy to draw conclusions from hearsay, I suggest that it should be treated as that.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 02:35:16 pm by Howardlong »
 

Offline MT

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #374 on: June 17, 2016, 02:50:07 pm »


The perp had known mental problems. It is exceptionally lazy and unhelpful to assume that all those who vote in a certain way in this referendum share the same deranged ideology.

In addition, there is as yet no official connection drawn between the acts of this nutter and the Brexit campaigns, and much as it is easy to draw conclusions from hearsay, I suggest that it should be treated as that.

Washington post is a well respected paper, a US of A paper mind you! Try to fade him away as a  basic UK nutter is extremely lame!
Believe in media ,Believe in Trump vote for Trump and Putin it will benefit UK, the pound will drop Putins oligarchs will buy UK proprieties
and migrate bringing all the looted and washed money along! Be happy! Hail the toad!
 


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