Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 353578 times)

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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #375 on: June 17, 2016, 03:04:27 pm »
We really don't do dynasties around here and getting this stopped in its tracks is a good idea.

Actually you do - far more than Europe.

Start with Bush Snr, then Jnr, and then Jeb tried to make it number 3.

Continue with the Kennedys; Jack/John was number 1, and Robert would probably have been number 2 if he hadn't been murdered.

Were there any earlier ones?
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Offline jaxbird

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #376 on: June 17, 2016, 03:05:22 pm »
EU was a mistake, originally sold as promoting growth and making trade withing Europe easier and cheaper.

Today EU is basically some expensive marxist experiment trying to gain control of all member countries/states with a leadership of people never elected by anyone in the contributing countries.
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #377 on: June 17, 2016, 03:18:15 pm »
The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

Errrr, and what race card would that be exactly
Farrage's poster was completely unacceptable, I'm glad you agree.

Playing on fears of mass immigration then, but claiming that we are going to be overrun by unskilled migrants (with particular emphasis on countries like Turkey) who only want to come here to live on benefits is a racist argument.

No, that is a concern of immigration. Concern about immigration != racism.

The emphasis on Turkey is that (a) Cameron (for Remain) told the electorate not to worry their pretty heads about it and (b) while they concurrently suggested secretly that actually it might be alright to "send a nice message" to Turkey in the form of a degree of relaxation to the immigration from that country prior to acceptance to the EU.

Quote
Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.

Even the Remain camp are stating that house prices will ease as a result of a Brexit. To many people that would be welcome, certainly where I live, where you need to be earning £150k+ just to buy a £500,000 studio apartment. There is nothing racist in that.

There is nothing racist in stating that schools are under pressure from children where English is not their first language.

There is nothing racist in stating that the NHS is under pressure from health tourism because the NHS is so freely available to all.

All of those three things you mention are only perceived to be racist because individuals choose to manipulate it to be so for their own agenda. It is not racist to point out that these things happen.

What are we to do? Just not mention anything at all in case someone from the PC brigade might call you a racist?

Again, please consider that branding everything you don't like as simply racist isn't just cheap, it really dilutes the real racist issues that exist in society.

Quote

Not to mention Boris's comments re Obama as a method of undermining his message.

The Boris's Obama quote was just silly and cringeworthy, he should've know better in his position.

To me EU immigration isn't even in my decision. Fundamentally I am fine with the single market and the freedom of movement (at least I was when the Union was comprised of reasonably compatible states in terms of GDP). What I am not fine about is the expansion of the EU into incompatible economies, increased fiscal parity, completely open borders, and combined defence. All of those things are already happening and they are stated aims of the EU as a whole, and the EU is not going to change without a bombshell. You either accept that the EU will continue that steamroller that you have no way of stopping, or you get out, and make that bombshell.
 
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Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #378 on: June 17, 2016, 03:18:56 pm »
"Today EU is basically some expensive marxist experiment trying to gain control of all member countries/states ..."

Agreed. Had it stayed on its original mission of driving economic growth, rather than straying onto a pan-european political super government, it would have been so much more helpful.

I think people are under estimating the risk of a brexit here. If that does materialize, the Cameron government iss likeely to be thrown out as well. With the rise of the right wing popularnist governments across Europe, the swing can go to the other extreme and may produce another Hitler.
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Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #379 on: June 17, 2016, 03:35:18 pm »
Washington post is a well respected paper, a US of A paper mind you!

Not anymore. It's now owned by Bezos and serves his political agenda.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline jaxbird

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #380 on: June 17, 2016, 03:36:23 pm »
Agreed. Had it stayed on its original mission of driving economic growth, rather than straying onto a pan-european political super government, it would have been so much more helpful.

I think people are under estimating the risk of a brexit here. If that does materialize, the Cameron government iss likeely to be thrown out as well. With the rise of the right wing popularnist governments across Europe, the swing can go to the other extreme and may produce another Hitler.

Yeah, that was what everyone voting for EU were originally told the vote to join was all about, it would be purely to remove trade barriers and exchange rates within Europe. No problems there.

I hope Brexit does happen and causes a domino effect, with more and more counties deciding to leave. But most of EU's political elites are doing their best to prevent anyone from having the opportunity to vote whether they want EU or not.



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Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #381 on: June 17, 2016, 03:40:41 pm »
I hope for a brexit as well. It iss good for the Brits and all Europeans in thee long run.

Some short term pains for sure
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Offline Gyro

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #382 on: June 17, 2016, 03:52:48 pm »
Damn, less than a week to go and after watching everything and following this thread, my biggest voting influence still seems to come down to worry about what might happen if we leave and it all switches to sh*t (the stay campaign strategy is obviously effective) :palm:

Anxiety doesn't seem like a good basis for a rational decision.

This international discussion is still the nearest thing to a good natured balanced argument I've see so far though  :-+

Sorry, carry on...
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Online nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #383 on: June 17, 2016, 04:04:42 pm »
Damn, less than a week to go and after watching everything and following this thread, my biggest voting influence still seems to come down to worry about what might happen if we leave and it all switches to sh*t (the stay campaign strategy is obviously effective) :palm:
I think it is safe to say nobody (else) will die whether the UK stays in the EU or not. Besides that I'm pretty sure the EU got the message whether the UK stays in the EU or not so mission accomplished. The Netherlands will be sad to see the UK go though because the NL and the UK both have similar wishes for how the EU should be organised.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 04:08:30 pm by nctnico »
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Offline gnavigator1007

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #384 on: June 17, 2016, 04:17:21 pm »
I think it is safe to say nobody (else) will die whether the UK stays in the EU or not.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #385 on: June 17, 2016, 04:31:40 pm »
Rule of thumb for this topic: ignore anybody that chooses not to display a flag by their moniker.

Hardly foolproof, but it weeds out those those that don't have the courage(?) to indicate how involved/committed they are to the subject.
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Offline daqq

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #386 on: June 17, 2016, 04:40:25 pm »
Quote
Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.
Are said claims false? Unsubstantiated?

edit: It's an honest question, I'm not in GB, as such all I have is hearsay and rumor.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 04:42:37 pm by daqq »
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Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #387 on: June 17, 2016, 04:48:36 pm »
Facts, particularly unhelpful facts, don't matter.

They are not helpful to a particular narrative some people are selling so those facts are wrong.

Forr examples, I live in a 3rd world country where a non union workers is defined by law as a union worker, a majority iss defined by law as minority, two colored minorities are defined as whites,  men can be defined as women and vice versa......

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Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #388 on: June 17, 2016, 04:55:02 pm »
We've had a housing shortage for years.

Large numbers of extra people coming into the country - a medium sized city's worth every year for the past decade by official figures - really isn't helping and is continuing to push property prices and rents up.

This has been acknowledged by the remain camp when they said that property prices would fall if we voted to leave.
 

Offline FrankD

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #389 on: June 17, 2016, 04:59:25 pm »
Quote
Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.
Are said claims false? Unsubstantiated?

edit: It's an honest question, I'm not in GB, as such all I have is hearsay and rumor.

Untrue and unsubstantiated. GB hardly had to deal with refugies yet. But if they have to by a non brexit I'm sure that their 19th century invention of the 'concentration camp' will come in handy.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #390 on: June 17, 2016, 05:00:04 pm »
Quote
Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.
Are said claims false? Unsubstantiated?
edit: It's an honest question, I'm not in GB, as such all I have is hearsay and rumor.
You can make statistics say anything you want. Fun fact: over a third of the Surinamese people live in the Netherlands (Suriname is a country in the north of South America). That sounds like a lot until you know there are less than a million Surinamese people in total.
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #391 on: June 17, 2016, 05:23:31 pm »
Quote
Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.
Are said claims false? Unsubstantiated?

edit: It's an honest question, I'm not in GB, as such all I have is hearsay and rumor.

In social housing there is evidence that suggests that immigrants get ahead of local people, but that is as much because of their circumstances as anything else, in that immigrants are more likely to bring up larger families than the indigenous, and those larger families tend to be from non-EU immigrants. A lot of the scare stories are anecdotal though.

This, along with general housing stock isn't an EU immigration thing though, it's more down to the massive foreign speculative investment of the top 0.1% than it is to do with the EU. Leaving the EU won't do much to help the lack of housing, although it will cool the already hugely overheated general housing market.

Schools, particularly in some ethnic hot spots suffer from non English speakers, although again this isn't so much an EU related problem, it tends to be much more to do with the "ghettoisation" (sorry, couldn't think of a better word) of some communities. While EU immigrants tend to make their way throughout the country, and generally integrate well, the same isn't the case for some communities not from the EU, although I am generalising here.

Regarding the NHS, well from my own experience there is a lot of advantage taken of it, but again this is not so much the EU, it is predominantly non-EU immigrants where their healthcare systems, by their own admission, aren't a patch on the NHS. I am aware of neighbours who bring their relatives into the UK for extended periods (think: 6 to 12 months) so they can have free health care. I also worked with a guy who did a similar thing, I made my views very clear on that one. By their very nature, these longer term illnesses tend to be very expensive, it's not like a broken leg or a couple of stitches. I honestly don't think the NHS has any clue how much is drained from their coffers, and our taxes, by health tourism, although they seem to think it's peanuts. My evidence, if extrapolated, suggests it's a lot more.

So that is one reason why the immigration thing doesn't really have any sway in my decision, because the problems and costs are not, in my experiences, generally from EU immigrants.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 05:38:59 pm by Howardlong »
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #392 on: June 17, 2016, 05:29:14 pm »
..., my biggest voting influence still seems to come down to worry about what might happen if we leave a...

I don't think it's wrong. Assessing what may happen as an effect of your decision is a valid data point - posititve and negative (side)effects.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #393 on: June 17, 2016, 05:34:51 pm »
Quote
Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.
Are said claims false? Unsubstantiated?

edit: It's an honest question, I'm not in GB, as such all I have is hearsay and rumor.

Untrue and unsubstantiated. GB hardly had to deal with refugies yet. But if they have to by a non brexit I'm sure that their 19th century invention of the 'concentration camp' will come in handy.

I don't think that's an informed response in my experience. I'll tell you what, I'll take you to the East End, that might open your eyes. Take a look in the schools in Bethnal Green and Wapping, the council estates in Stepney, the wards in the Royal London Hospital in Whitechapel (or any other London hospital). Then you might have a very different view. But this is mostly not due to EU immigration.
 

Offline XynxNet

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #394 on: June 17, 2016, 06:12:07 pm »
What's the problem with Brexit?

If the british majority doesn't share the goals an values of the eu any longer, brexit is a good thing.
No hard feelings required. It is good thing, that voting about such matters is possible.

As with every democratic decision one hopes that the voter makes an informed vote.
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #395 on: June 17, 2016, 06:14:02 pm »
Misconceptions of the british population about the EU
Left column: What the british think                                 Right colum: reality

   Percentage of EU immigrants dat are part of the british population
              15%                                                                        5%

  Percentage of the britisch childsupport being paid to children in the EU
                8%                                                                      0,3%

  Percentage of the budget spent on the EU civil service (bureaucracy if you like)
               27%                                                                     6%

  Participation (share) of the EU in the total investments in Great Brittain
               30%                                                                     48%
This is, of course, the problem - there is always a gulf between reality and perception and there are always fears which politicians can use for leverage. If you are white and of a certain background and political leaning living in one of our larger cities you are much more likely to perceive that it is "invaded by foreigners" than welcome the fact of living in a vibrant multi-ethnic society. You are also likely to assume everyone that you see with a dark face is an immigrant whereas the reality most will have been born here, to parents who were born here.

I don't normally give Polly Toynbee much time but I think that she hit the right note in this article The mood is is ugly, and an MP is dead. The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

In your "Participation (share) of the EU in the total investments in Great Brittain" numbers, that does not necessarily relates to immigration.  Foreign Investment and immigration are very different.

Case and point: In 1980's to early 2000's, VW was fairly large in China and for a number of years VW was the number one car manufacturer in China.  China had a huge German investment yet China hardly had any German immigrants.  Flow of money and flow of people does not necessarily relate to each other.

For "childsupport being paid to children in the EU", a 0.3% number, if it is indeed that low, saids the UK government is not doing its job.  In a sane world, social services and related costs due to immigration should be zero.  The host country should choose immigrant that benefits the nation and the citizens rather than costs the nation.  Otherwise, it is robbing its own citizen to benefit others.
 

Offline FrankD

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #396 on: June 17, 2016, 06:23:05 pm »
That's why I said refugees.

It's the same over here. The larger cities have a far higher non ethnic population than the more rural areas of the country.
And over half of them is due to our colonial heritage. (Not a history to be proud of.)

It's the people in the rural area's are the ones that react in ways that would have made them collaborators in the last world war.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #397 on: June 17, 2016, 07:20:16 pm »
In your "Participation (share) of the EU in the total investments in Great Brittain" numbers, that does not necessarily relates to immigration.  Foreign Investment and immigration are very different.
I never said it had anything to do with immigration, it just simply states the newspaper facts that in general , british people have wrong numbers in their heads and don't have the correct figures, so their judgment is biased to begin with.
If they want to leave fine with me, I am not stopping you but shouldn't everyone have the right figures and the correct facts to make a good decision ?

 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #398 on: June 17, 2016, 07:25:15 pm »
Quote
In your "Participation (share) of the EU in the total investments in Great Brittain" numbers, that does not necessarily relates to immigration.  Foreign Investment and immigration are very different.

I had a long conversation with someone yesterday on this very topic. He's sense is that the european (continent) investments in London (we were talking mostly about the financial services industry) is due to what the city has to offer, not because UK/London being part of the EU. As such, he believes that the investments will likely continue, without substantial declines as others have suggested.

I tend to agree with that assessment.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #399 on: June 17, 2016, 07:32:02 pm »
It's the people in the rural area's are the ones that react in ways that would have made them collaborators in the last world war.
Pfffff so tired of ww2 brought up over and over again and then in ways that are so stupid and easy to contradict.
Collaborators were everywhere in ww2, actually it was everyone that did nothing, doing nothing is also collaborating and you can not blame them after the events in may 40 and following actions the germans took if someone resisted.
The resistance were a few hundred people and after the war it was suddenly a few thousands of people, you go figure.

Back to the item you brought up, I saw a lot of little rural communities helping and supporting more immigrants than in the big cities, and the facts are that the succes ratio for support and integration are higher when immigrants are accepted in small communities instead of being "faceless anonymous humans" in the big city. The problems started when the political peanutbrains wanted to put large centres in small communities. Everyone with a small brain in their heads understand that it is not wise to put 1500 immigrants in a village of 1000 people. Next problem is that the schools did not receive the proper funding to help integrate the immigrant children in their classes. There were examples that 20 immigrant children joined a class of 15 exisiting children, what are they thinking? Lets be real, the EU was never prepared for this invasion and everyone did their best but it should have been contained from day one. Noone knew what to do and I still don't see a correct solution. The biggest problem I see are not the real war immigrants, we are obliged to help them just as we want to be helped if we ever came in such a situation. Besides most want to go back anyway when there is peace, if there is ever going to be peace that is. But the economic immigrants, mostly young men, fortuneseekers, they should be brought back day 2 after identification, but their country does not want to co-operate so they can not be sent back. I can not believe that and they are the real problem for the EU, IMO.
 


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