Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 347192 times)

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Offline rstofer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #500 on: June 20, 2016, 07:25:10 pm »
That's a very interesting video.  He did make the point that access to the single market brought along the requirement for free movement of people from countries in the EU.  I suspect that this is a sticking point for many.  If we had such a requirement in the US, all of South America and Mexico would be vacant.
 

Offline Delta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #501 on: June 20, 2016, 08:00:00 pm »
That's a very interesting video.  He did make the point that access to the single market brought along the requirement for free movement of people from countries in the EU.  I suspect that this is a sticking point for many.  If we had such a requirement in the US, all of South America and Mexico would be vacant.

That's one of the reasons that I thought it was so patronising of Obama to come to the UK and shpiel on about how good the EU is.  There is no way on earth that the US would agree to have open boarders with Mexico, free movement across the whole continent, and their laws decided upon in Toronto and their supreme court overruled by a court in Rio.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #502 on: June 20, 2016, 08:09:25 pm »
I don't know why Obama got into the BREXIT discussion.  Nobody in the UK is going to change their point of view based on his position.  This is strictly an internal matter for the people of the UK to decide.  Outsiders, me included, have no standing.

It was good to watch an educated person describe the issues.  There are many, no doubt.  But if we had a requirement for free movement here in the US, I know how I would vote!  I also noticed he glossed over benefits due upon entry.  I think that would be a hard sell around here.  In fact, we are fighting over it here in California where the legislature has every intention of extending full medical benefits to all of our illegal aliens.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #503 on: June 20, 2016, 08:12:50 pm »
That's a very interesting video.  He did make the point that access to the single market brought along the requirement for free movement of people from countries in the EU.  I suspect that this is a sticking point for many.  If we had such a requirement in the US, all of South America and Mexico would be vacant.
Wrong conclusion. For a single market to work you'd need to set standards to become a member of that single market like the EU does.
The US actually has far far less stricter immigration policies than the EU. If you are in the EU illegally you will be deported even if you have lived and worked in the EU for over a decade. No green card lotteries or loopholes to get a permanent stay & work permit. Before you are allowed to enter most EU countries you'll need to learn the local language of the country you want to live in before you arrive and you'll need to have a means to support yourself (or a spouse with a reasonable salary).
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 08:19:17 pm by nctnico »
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Offline rolycat

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #504 on: June 20, 2016, 08:23:22 pm »
For a rather less serious video, John Oliver and his US show Last Week Tonight have an amusing take on the debate, which closes with a rousing rendition of his song "F**k the European Union":

 

Offline kaz911

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #505 on: June 20, 2016, 08:55:11 pm »
That's a very interesting video.  He did make the point that access to the single market brought along the requirement for free movement of people from countries in the EU.  I suspect that this is a sticking point for many.  If we had such a requirement in the US, all of South America and Mexico would be vacant.
Wrong conclusion. For a single market to work you'd need to set standards to become a member of that single market like the EU does.
The US actually has far far less stricter immigration policies than the EU. If you are in the EU illegally you will be deported even if you have lived and worked in the EU for over a decade. No green card lotteries or loopholes to get a permanent stay & work permit. Before you are allowed to enter most EU countries you'll need to learn the local language of the country you want to live in before you arrive and you'll need to have a means to support yourself (or a spouse with a reasonable salary).

that is not quite true. You do not need to learn the language in most countries UNLESS you want to become a CITIZEN. There is no requirement to learn BEFORE you arrive. And the requirement is usually linked to benefits - so if you do NOT learn the language - the benefits issued at lower rates or not at all.  All countries incl the US requires you to have enough money to support yourself upon entry. For the US you also need a return ticket and I think minimum $50 per day you plan to stay.
 

Offline Delta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #506 on: June 20, 2016, 08:59:36 pm »
. Before you are allowed to enter most EU countries you'll need to learn the local language of the country you want to live in before you arrive and you'll need to have a means to support yourself (or a spouse with a reasonable salary).

Bollocks.  :palm:
 
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Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #507 on: June 20, 2016, 09:35:12 pm »
Project fear on both sides, I supose both camps tried to use the Unionist tactics from the Scottish referendum.  The majority of the English participents  in this thread are belching win'.

This is a short summary of the consequences of leaving from Professor Michael Dougan of the University of Liverpool.
https://youtu.be/AQanMs2Pskc

And a short guide to the structure of the EU from Scotland in Europe.
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/alynsmith/pages/2336/attachments/original/1464942911/WBB-download.pdf

Are these two sources supposed to be neutral?
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Offline Marco

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #508 on: June 20, 2016, 09:47:10 pm »
It was good to watch an educated person describe the issues.  There are many, no doubt.  But if we had a requirement for free movement here in the US, I know how I would vote!

If I lived in the North of the US I would too ... if you can't get useful borders on a federal level then state level is better than nothing.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #509 on: June 20, 2016, 09:57:54 pm »
Are these two sources supposed to be neutral?

The John Oliver clip was far more entertaining!  Not as entertaining as the actual vote but pretty funny.  The theme song is outstanding!
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #510 on: June 20, 2016, 10:23:59 pm »
That's a very interesting video.  He did make the point that access to the single market brought along the requirement for free movement of people from countries in the EU.  I suspect that this is a sticking point for many.  If we had such a requirement in the US, all of South America and Mexico would be vacant.
Wrong conclusion. For a single market to work you'd need to set standards to become a member of that single market like the EU does.
The US actually has far far less stricter immigration policies than the EU. If you are in the EU illegally you will be deported even if you have lived and worked in the EU for over a decade. No green card lotteries or loopholes to get a permanent stay & work permit. Before you are allowed to enter most EU countries you'll need to learn the local language of the country you want to live in before you arrive and you'll need to have a means to support yourself (or a spouse with a reasonable salary).
that is not quite true. You do not need to learn the language in most countries UNLESS you want to become a CITIZEN.
That was what we where talking about here: immigration, not a holiday or another form of short term stay!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #511 on: June 20, 2016, 11:00:35 pm »
That's a very interesting video.  He did make the point that access to the single market brought along the requirement for free movement of people from countries in the EU.  I suspect that this is a sticking point for many.  If we had such a requirement in the US, all of South America and Mexico would be vacant.
Wrong conclusion. For a single market to work you'd need to set standards to become a member of that single market like the EU does.
The US actually has far far less stricter immigration policies than the EU. If you are in the EU illegally you will be deported even if you have lived and worked in the EU for over a decade. No green card lotteries or loopholes to get a permanent stay & work permit. Before you are allowed to enter most EU countries you'll need to learn the local language of the country you want to live in before you arrive and you'll need to have a means to support yourself (or a spouse with a reasonable salary).
that is not quite true. You do not need to learn the language in most countries UNLESS you want to become a CITIZEN.
That was what we where talking about here: immigration, not a holiday or another form of short term stay!

Just because you immigrate - you do not need to become a citizen! And you do not need to learn the language before you arrive. Many countries will pay... for "immigrants" to do language courses. So for refugees - they get paid a "salary" for showing up and learning local language.

And road to citizenship in most EU countries is not easy apart from some (mostly) former Eastern European states are actively "selling" EU passports for investment into their economies. Spain does also sell "access" but so far only Spanish visa's - not passports.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #512 on: June 20, 2016, 11:19:03 pm »
Two years ago the Swiss had an anti-immigration referendum, which was passed by 50.3% of the vote.

Now that it is just about to come into force and the consequences are understood, only 21% still want it. That's right, the majority of the people that voted in favour now want to change their mind.

FFI, see https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601721/why-scientists-are-so-worried-about-brexit/ and note that the URL hints why it is relevant to electronics. Note that although Switzerland != UK, the reasons and consequences will largely apply to the UK.

Let's make new mistakes, not repeat other people's mistakes.
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Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #513 on: June 21, 2016, 12:27:37 am »
That's one of the reasons that I thought it was so patronising of Obama to come to the UK and shpiel on about how good the EU is.

Intervention in internal matters goes both ways

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/05/uks-cameron-trumps-muslim-immigration-ban-very-dangerous-thing-to-say

There is no way on earth that the US would agree to have open boarders with Mexico, free movement across the whole continent, and their laws decided upon in Toronto and their supreme court overruled by a court in Rio.

Don't be so sure. Obama and the likes provide incentive and protection to illegals here. Definitely not America first.
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Offline Corporate666

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #514 on: June 21, 2016, 12:32:22 am »
Wildly fluctuating, yes - but I don't expect the pound and the euro to fluctuate wildly.  They will find their relative levels and changes will tend to be slow and gradual in response to macro economic events.
Not really. I have seen the euro/pound move wildly (20% or so) over the timeframe of just a few months. Just look at the graphs of the exchange rate!

Moves of 20% over a matter of months aren't wild fluctuations.  That's normal currency exchange variation that you see between any stable currencies like pounds, dollars, euros, yen, etc.  And these fluctuations have existed for as long as the Euro has existed, so it's not something new that's going to happen that will cause big problems for EU<->UK transactions.  It will be the same old, same old.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #515 on: June 21, 2016, 12:37:59 am »
Except when Holland leaves EU too (I mean, they kick out the EU bureaucrats)
Imagine to have to deal with extra paperwork, banking costs and exhance rate fluctuations just to do some business with one of those remaining overpriced bigstate EU countries.
Banking costs are a non-issue.   Pay using PayPal and the currency is automatically converted.  Same if you pay by credit card.  Fee is no different than it is for other transactions, generally speaking.
Using Paypal for a business transaction of several $k ???  :palm: The piss-poor exchange rate Paypal offers makes the cost of a wire transfer look like peanuts in comparison.

You don't have to let PayPal do the conversion.  You can use PayPal as the mechanism for transfer allowing you to use any credit or debit card you like, paying in the receivers local currency, and getting the benefits of PayPal while letting your chosen bank do the currency transfer.

Again, this is not something unique to a Brexit as these things have been going on for years and years.  It's just a non-issue.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #516 on: June 21, 2016, 11:31:20 am »
Except when Holland leaves EU too (I mean, they kick out the EU bureaucrats)
Imagine to have to deal with extra paperwork, banking costs and exhance rate fluctuations just to do some business with one of those remaining overpriced bigstate EU countries.
Banking costs are a non-issue.   Pay using PayPal and the currency is automatically converted.  Same if you pay by credit card.  Fee is no different than it is for other transactions, generally speaking.
Using Paypal for a business transaction of several $k ???  :palm: The piss-poor exchange rate Paypal offers makes the cost of a wire transfer look like peanuts in comparison.

You don't have to let PayPal do the conversion.  You can use PayPal as the mechanism for transfer allowing you to use any credit or debit card you like, paying in the receivers local currency, and getting the benefits of PayPal while letting your chosen bank do the currency transfer.
Now you are moving the goal posts. First you say to use Paypal and have them convert the currency and then you say let your bank do the conversion. That is a great idea  :palm: NOT! First you pay Paypal transaction fees and then currency conversion fees to your bank. The added value of Paypal is zero in this situation. A bank to bank wire transfer is the simplest and cheapest solution compared to using Paypal or a credit-card.
Quote
Again, this is not something unique to a Brexit as these things have been going on for years and years.  It's just a non-issue.
If it where a non-issue then the euro would not have been in use nowadays. Also in many industries (like oil) they use one currency to make life easier. Now again try to explain why having different currencies is a non-issue. Also a 20% fluctuation on a 100k euro project means being 20k euro too expensive or earning 20k euro less.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 11:36:02 am by nctnico »
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Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #517 on: June 21, 2016, 01:00:48 pm »
Your point is moot. We're not part of the Eurozone and never have been thank $deity.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #518 on: June 21, 2016, 01:07:23 pm »
Your point is moot. We're not part of the Eurozone and never have been thank $deity.
Except for 2008 the EU as a whole has outperformed the UK significantly when it comes to economic growth since 1992 until now. Who is -obviously- doing something wrong here? IMHO the people in the UK are paying a hefty price for a bit of pride.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 01:09:21 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #519 on: June 21, 2016, 01:19:25 pm »
It has nothing to do with pride.

Tell that to the Greeks, Spanish, Italians, Irish and Portuguese.
 
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Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #520 on: June 21, 2016, 01:30:24 pm »
IMHO the people in the UK are paying a hefty price for a bit of pride.

... or the people in the Nederland have no pride, giving away the independence of their country for a quick gain.

Different people, different values and priorities, you can't project your own values on other. Let them decide how they see future of their country.
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #521 on: June 21, 2016, 01:31:23 pm »
Your point is moot. We're not part of the Eurozone and never have been thank $deity.
Except for 2008 the EU as a whole has outperformed the UK significantly when it comes to economic growth since 1992 until now. Who is -obviously- doing something wrong here? IMHO the people in the UK are paying a hefty price for a bit of pride.

Everyone took a hit 2008-2009, the UK briefly dipped below the Eurozone early in the recovery but had been outperforming the Eurozone and is once again outperforming the Eurozone.



However what I worry about is this



Manufacturing took a huge hit in 2008-9 and really has not recovered.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #522 on: June 21, 2016, 01:43:39 pm »
... In Germany the restaurants and hotels are much cheaper than in the rest of West Europe.
Like in: Double the price than in other parts of West Europe.
At least, my experience till 2010, in developed parts of Germany, parts with de-facto employment opportunities.

With products from outside the EU the importer becomes liable so a smart importer makes sure he gets documents from a qualified testing facility which proof the product has been tested. So in general the self-certification is a no-go for imported stuff.
With products from inside EU the buyer is responsible too. No difference.

Something else popped into my mind: how about CE when dealing with the UK in case of a Brexit?...
Your mind invoked another unnecessary unexisting problem.
Manufacturer makes product, chooses to certify CE or chooses to not certify and sell it with a workaround as experimental of not-working.
Buyer buys with CE to be ready to sell/integrate or without CE and does everything himself.

No difference if the buyer buys it in Germany of Serbia.
No diference if the manufacturer sells it from Germany or Serbia.
 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 02:00:43 pm by Galenbo »
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Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #523 on: June 21, 2016, 01:57:50 pm »
"I fell like a second-class citizen in my own country"

That is the title of a front page article from nytimes today on brexit. And that pretty sums up a lot of people feel in Manny Western countries right now.

The article is really nice to read as it is a classic example of super journalism. Something we haven't seen from the media, especially nytimes, for a long long time. Very well done.
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Offline Galenbo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #524 on: June 21, 2016, 02:07:53 pm »
"I fell like a second-class citizen in my own country"
... And that pretty sums up a lot of people feel in Manny Western countries right now.

Same here. We are currently invaded by a hostile jew-hating gay-hating army, just like the years the Nazi army invaded our territory.
That army is 90% male and healty, just like the Nazi army.
They take goods and services without paying, helped by the local goverments, just like in 1939/1940.
In our community, local politicians and bureaucrats held a meeting to "inform" the population, they were escorted by armed police. Just like 1939/1940.
Local Nazi crimes were talked about as incidents, criticising them could cost your job, collaborating helped an indicvidual rising on the picking order, had many benefits.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 
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