Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 347190 times)

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Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #550 on: June 21, 2016, 06:09:39 pm »
The laws says that either the manufacturer or importer (in case the manufacturer is outside the EU) is responsible for the product. Now ask yourself: would you be willing to be responsible for someone else's goof up? Oh, and don't take my word for it: http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/product/ce-mark/index_en.htm
You simplify it to a level you understand it yourself, fine for me. But don't start to use that as a reference for others.
Stop using populistic expressions like "goof up" in overgeneralised quotes. Specify.

Where is your big difference in being responsible for a part that is bought with a checked CE mark from outside EU, and being responsible for a part that is bought with a checked CE mark from inside EU?
You are making my point here exactly: 'a checked CE mark'. Devices made in the EU can be self certified by the manufacturer without risk for the distributor. However if you import stuff from outside the EU you'd be crazy to take that risk with self certified devices.

Many small electronics companies make a living by selling small production runs of devices where it really isn't economically viable to send each device out for a full CE conformance test in an accredited lab. This basically takes away any chance of UK based electronics companies to compete for contracts within the EU. They are several thousands of euros behind on the local competition before they start. Is that really so hard to see and understand??

For many products you don't need to use an accredited lab to fullfill CE marking requirements.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 06:32:45 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline John_ITIC

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #551 on: June 21, 2016, 06:09:59 pm »
There is no way on earth that the US would agree to have open boarders with Mexico, free movement across the whole continent, and their laws decided upon in Toronto and their supreme court overruled by a court in Rio.

Don't be so sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union

Offline vodka

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #552 on: June 21, 2016, 06:26:45 pm »
Quote
if the UK does not kick the EU dictators out then... same text.

The Pirate King versus the EU dictators  :clap: ,simply i would prefer to sell very cheap my soul to devil that  is more reliable and the best option
 

Offline retrolefty

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #553 on: June 21, 2016, 06:40:26 pm »
Quote
CE tests/certification are mandatory if workers/customers/public/children/... are involved. I assumed you at least knew that.

 So whom does that leave that it is not mandatory for?   :-DD
 

Offline vodka

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #554 on: June 21, 2016, 06:49:17 pm »
Quote
Is that really so hard to see and understand??

you don't insist more , they think that can penetrate a wall using their head without they hurt themselves  |O. But  we know the great majority will give the brains on the wall :-DD.
 

Offline Towger

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #555 on: June 21, 2016, 07:42:30 pm »
The CE regulations are a series of 'EU Directives'.
If they are written in to British law it will take more than leaving the EU to change them.
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #556 on: June 21, 2016, 07:50:28 pm »
Quote
For many products you don't need to use an accredited lab to fullfill CE marking requirements.
Surely for EMC compliance you have yo use an accredited lab ?
In the past I've tested products for mains safety and things like surge tests, brown out tests, leakage and some I can't even remember. As long as everything is documented, with photos as well, then there isn't much of a problem with self certification. It depends a lot on your end customer. I've seen a case where an accredited lab did a compliance test on a 10mW transponder, they said it was radiating somthing close to 100mW, the guy who designed it was furious to say the least, how the hell can that be it's only drawing 30mW at the most, I can't remember, they admitted their mistake and did the test for free.
I've also seen the not so respectible side of EMC testing, big system with lots of wire and shit Yaskawa drives that are CE marked but would never ever meet EMC requirements, there are a few pages hidden in the manual that tell you to bypass everything with ferrite and caps inside a sealed screened cabinet, then it will pass EMC. Anyway long story short, a week of EMC testing and retrofitting useless shit, I came to the conclusion that it would never pass, not even close. The manufacturers told the major US manufacturer, it passed, WTF, and still none the wiser. Rant over.
 

Offline rch

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #557 on: June 21, 2016, 07:57:50 pm »
The CE regulations are a series of 'EU Directives'.
If they are written in to British law it will take more than leaving the EU to change them.

We could go back to Imperial units and adopt American standards instead.   That would appeal to the older element of the Brexit crowd.  We could even go back to burning coal, delivered by horse and cart.  That would solve the Russian gas problem.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #558 on: June 21, 2016, 08:10:15 pm »
Quote
For many products you don't need to use an accredited lab to fullfill CE marking requirements.
Surely for EMC compliance you have yo use an accredited lab ?
No. For many devices you can just put a sticker on it with a CE mark. Having everything tested is what accredited labs have been shouting for a long time but that isn't what the law says. The laws says it has to comply with the regulations and as a manufacturer or importer you are responsible. HOW you know the device complies is up to you. If you think a device complies or have in-house testing facilities then nothing stops you from self certifying the device.

Things get different when safety is involved but then you enter into things like mains plugs, fuses, etc which where already required to undergo testing. In those cases CE marking unified/replaced many (different) standards from European countries.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 08:12:44 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline apis

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #559 on: June 21, 2016, 08:57:26 pm »
I don't think there is any point, the UK will just end up worse than the other countries who are not members but have access to the inner market: they will have to implement all the EU directives anyway but they will no longer have any influence in Brussels. The other countries in that situation made a deal when they were deciding if they should join or not, so the EU gave them some leeway, if UK leaves they will really have to make it a good deal for the rest of the EU for them to accept it.

Also I'm curious how the Scottish would feel if the UK leaves EU. Surely they will want another independence referendum, if they have to choose between Westminster and EU, what is the bigger evil? I have a feeling most think it's Westminster.

I am wishing for a brexit just so I can see the action  :popcorn:
>:D
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #560 on: June 21, 2016, 09:30:03 pm »
"Also I'm curious how the Scottish would feel if the UK leaves EU. "

A large investment bank today published a note today along the lines I mentioned earlier. The biggest blowback from brexit is likeely on thee political froont: you will likely see the collapse of the Cameron government, more independence movement (Scottish plus thee Spanish), uprising on the extreme rights as well as extreme left - one is going to be excited by brexit and another pissed at it, regardless of the outcome.

IE. A more decided europe. In my book, that's a better Europe.
================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #561 on: June 21, 2016, 10:04:30 pm »
Quote
The laws says it has to comply with the regulations and as a manufacturer or importer you are responsible
Totally agree 100% but there are no border controls of any sort whatsover in the UK to stop unsafe electrical products getting into the country, Brexit or no Brexit it isn't going to make a difference. Trading standards, Customs and Excise, you got to be laughing, they've got very little or no control whatsoever is some cases. Allegedlly you can order just about anything online and it will arrive in a padded envelope some time later, border control, it's a joke.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #562 on: June 21, 2016, 10:09:40 pm »
Quote
The laws says it has to comply with the regulations and as a manufacturer or importer you are responsible
Totally agree 100% but there are no border controls of any sort whatsover in the UK to stop unsafe electrical products getting into the country, Brexit or no Brexit it isn't going to make a difference. Trading standards, Customs and Excise, you got to be laughing, they've got very little or no control whatsoever is some cases. Allegedlly you can order just about anything online and it will arrive in a padded envelope some time later, border control, it's a joke.
True but the devil is in the details: IF something goes wrong shit is going to fly and I rather make sure I will not be where the shit lands. Better be safe than sorry.

And don't be so sure about ordering whatever you want online. Mail and parcels do get checked much more thouroughly than you think.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 10:11:28 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #563 on: June 21, 2016, 10:12:36 pm »


Also I'm curious how the Scottish would feel if the UK leaves EU. Surely they will want another independence referendum, if they have to choose between Westminster and EU, what is the bigger evil? I have a feeling most think it's Westminster.

Like the Spanish would ever allow an independent Scotland to join. It'd only encourage the Catalans to pursue independence from Spain.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #564 on: June 21, 2016, 10:15:18 pm »
[img]http://www.icomuk.co.uk/images/icom/fieldsetField/235/CE_Marks_lrg.jpg[/im
No, not this nonsense again  :palm: There is at least one court ruling which says the wrong CE logo is to be interpreted as a valid CE logo for all intends and purposes. So sorry, no loop hole.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline woodchips

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #565 on: June 21, 2016, 10:24:56 pm »
Just read Why Vote Leave by Hannan, and pretty persuasive it is too.

Thing is, to leave the EU all a member country has to do is repeal Article 20 of the Lisbon Treaty and the EU is bound to accept. So, if we remain and the ever closer bit becomes suffocating then there is a way out in some years to come, irrespective whether anyone says in is in and out is out.

I do find this wonderfully reassuring.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #566 on: June 21, 2016, 10:56:14 pm »
Quote
CE tests/certification are mandatory if workers/customers/public/children/... are involved. I assumed you at least knew that.

 So whom does that leave that it is not mandatory for?   :-DD
Prototypes used as prototype, test setups in closed environments, tools only used by the owner himself, parts/devices that will not be used standalone and will be integrated into a bigger ensemble, temporary setups with partial certifications,...
Understand this sentence the way I wrote it: Every item with it's own exceptions, limits, assumptions.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #567 on: June 21, 2016, 10:57:25 pm »
[img]http://www.icomuk.co.uk/images/icom/fieldsetField/235/CE_Marks_lrg.jpg[/im
No, not this nonsense again  :palm: There is at least one court ruling which says the wrong CE logo is to be interpreted as a valid CE logo for all intends and purposes. So sorry, no loop hole.
Well every day's a school day. I didn't know that and will have a bit more trust in the mark even if the letters are a bit too close together.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #568 on: June 21, 2016, 10:57:44 pm »
Quote
if the UK does not kick the EU dictators out then... same text.

The Pirate King versus the EU dictators  :clap: ,simply i would prefer to sell very cheap my soul to devil that  is more reliable and the best option
Every civilian had that choice in WW2 too.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #569 on: June 21, 2016, 11:09:50 pm »
Quote
The laws says it has to comply with the regulations and as a manufacturer or importer you are responsible
Totally agree 100% but there are no border controls of any sort whatsover in the UK to stop unsafe electrical products getting into the country, Brexit or no Brexit it isn't going to make a difference. Trading standards, Customs and Excise, you got to be laughing, they've got very little or no control whatsoever is some cases. Allegedlly you can order just about anything online and it will arrive in a padded envelope some time later, border control, it's a joke.
You introduce a new aspect here. It's true you can buy uncertified items in china that should be certified.
But you can use it to burn your own house down, once you sell them you are responsible for checking and be somewhat safe, or ignoring and take the risk.
Making your own business of reselling uncertified/copyright/illegal items won't last long.

At least for me, I don't need a bigger control or opression from goverments. The ones who need should see it applied on them personally, not on the others.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 11:28:50 pm by Galenbo »
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #570 on: June 22, 2016, 12:25:41 am »
The Single Currency typifies the folly of those who run the EU.  I'm not an economist, merely a technician, but even to me it is blindingly obvious that one currency, with one central bank, one interest rate (and thus one and only one economic policy) could never work across countries with economies as different as Germany and Greece, the Netherlands and Cyprus, etc etc.

I have to agree.  This is one aspect of the EU that never made sense to me.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #571 on: June 22, 2016, 12:56:24 am »
The Single Currency typifies the folly of those who run the EU.  I'm not an economist, merely a technician, but even to me it is blindingly obvious that one currency, with one central bank, one interest rate (and thus one and only one economic policy) could never work across countries with economies as different as Germany and Greece, the Netherlands and Cyprus, etc etc.

I have to agree.  This is one aspect of the EU that never made sense to me.

From the outside looking in - the problem isn't the difference in economies.  Various parts of the US are at least as different economically as the countries mentioned.  It is the difference in economies combined with the (to an outsider) strange mix of EU level control and local control.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #572 on: June 22, 2016, 01:06:06 am »
For people living in a large country or an island it may be strange but needing 4 to 5 different currencies in one holiday (driving only 1 or 2 days away by car) is a major PITA!

IMHO what sets the EU apart from the rest of the world is that it is a collaboration of countries which (mostly) have a multi-party political system where nobody has absolute power. This translates into the EU not having a single captain but some kind of a round table where ideas are pitched, molded into new ideas and then agreed upon or thrown out. Since recent there is a EU president but this post is more or less ceremonial.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 01:14:18 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Delta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #573 on: June 22, 2016, 01:22:41 am »
For people living in a large country or an island it may be strange but needing 4 to 5 different currencies in one holiday (driving only 1 or 2 days away by car) is a major PITA!


Yeah!  The PIGS* might be in economic turmoil due to having no control over their own financial policy having adopted the Euro, but at least your road trips are more convenient!  That's a small price (for them) to pay.  >:D

* Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain.
 
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Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #574 on: June 22, 2016, 06:47:01 am »
Since recent there is a EU president but this post is more or less ceremonial.
There are no less than 4 EU presidents.

None of whom are democratically elected.

And I defy anyone to name them all without looking them up.

Go Democracy!
 


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