Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 347178 times)

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Offline Buriedcode

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #725 on: June 24, 2016, 10:55:44 am »
I have been tempted to post here for weeks - not that I intended to (or could) influence anyone.  But I genuinely believed it would go in favour of remaining.  Imagine my surprise when I flipped on the TV this morning :(

The reason I think many 'remainians' have been hostile is because of frustration at the same old arguments from the other side: "need to curb immigration", "EU pushing us around", "We want Britain to be great again!" and the result will only impact on one of those (clue, its not the first or third). The worst was several neighbours (who are retired) claiming they wanted Britain to be like it was when they were growing up.  I had to bite my lip because I couldn't believe relatively intelligent people honestly think we can go back in time.  And I don't see why the EU would try to stop refugees or dare I say 'illegal' immigrants leaving the EU, they're far more concerned with them entering and moving around within it.  So if anything, surely it would make it harder for the UK to 'stem the tide' (that is of course assuming that we get "too many" despite no official figures coming out from either camp, it is merely assumed that its too much and damaging to our economy, when for the most part all the evidence I've seen points to the contrary http://iasservices.org.uk/how-does-immigration-benefit-the-uk/).

I think the UK government will fight to remain in the EU single market, but what happens in the interim I haven't read any predictions except it will have to trade under the WTO rules. 

I'm fairly sure the vast majority of voters, from either side, didn't actually know what to expect which is why the campaign to leave was so loud and nationalist, and the leavers scare mongering - the powers that be were uncertain, and so fell back on the main driving force of public voting - short sighted, emotional and political persuasions.   The trouble with referendums is they must take a very complicated issue with all manner of possible consequences and break it down to a 'yes/no'. Some have stuck by the 'well, its simple, we're either in, or out!' and these are the people - those who think everything is black and white - that piss me off the most.  So they might as well have just flipped a coin. 

Ultimately the public is responsible for what the government does, but I'm willing to bet, just like in government.. if things go well those who voted to leave will be loud, if things don't - they'll refuse to accept responsibility, claim they were misled or simply keep quiet.  And its likely that it'll be a heady mix of both. 

I'm curious as to what little known or relatively minor laws/restrictions the EU impose on the UK will change, and what will come of it.  Will all the problems people have with Brussels, they did stand firm with regards to Google, Microsoft, and Apple, and also capped the charges phones companies make.  I guess we'll find out in the following few years!
 

Offline onesixright

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #726 on: June 24, 2016, 10:58:02 am »
To call victory when you barley have a majority isn't a victory imo. Its means still a lot of people are disagreeing. That goes both ways.

Democracy is nice and cool, if your on the side of the majority.


Lets hope something positive comes out of it...
 

Offline Buriedcode

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #727 on: June 24, 2016, 10:59:08 am »
... Do you think the catchy 'BREXIT' was worth a percentage point to the leavers?

Yes.  Lord knows we're a fickle bunch, I'm willing to bet "celebrities" also played a huge part on both sides.  Sorry for the cynicism but when it comes to 'entering the poll booth' I swear people forget almost everything except buzzwords.
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #728 on: June 24, 2016, 11:02:21 am »
So what will be the differences?

I don't think anyone has any real idea what the consequences will be, which is why the financial markets are in such turmoil.

Boris Johnson, one of the leading Brexiteers, has just made what he no doubt hopes is a statesmanlike speech emphasising his desire for the United Kingdom to remain very much a part of Europe.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #729 on: June 24, 2016, 11:04:21 am »
Not so much punish as not being able to give the UK any special treatment. If others notice they can leave and get a good deal out of it that would send the wrong signal (from the EU perspective), so EU can't afford to give the UK easy access to the inner market, for example. It will suck both for EU and the UK so no-one is going to do it out of malice.

I think this is one of the great dangers; that politicians in all countries will make decisions that "send out a signal that...", or allow them to "be seen to be doing...", or in which they are "thought of as..." whatever. Never mind what the actual issues are, or the real, solid, practical consequences for those affected. It's all about wanting to be thought of as seen to be sending out whatever kind of message is politically fashionable this week.  |O :palm:

We've already seen a lot of this in the run-up to the vote. We (the UK) have heard "you still won't get such-and-such", or "if you leave, you won't have this, that or the other", or "we won't let you do <whatever>". It's exasperating. So many people all indvidually trying to save face, or to send out another sodding 'message'.

The decision has been taken. Our pro-EU PM has declared he'll resign, and no doubt others will follow. Now can we please just get on and negotiate how best to proceed from here without all the bluff and bluster?

Offline StuUK

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #730 on: June 24, 2016, 11:16:51 am »

I'm curious as to what little known or relatively minor laws/restrictions the EU impose on the UK will change, and what will come of it.  Will all the problems people have with Brussels, they did stand firm with regards to Google, Microsoft, and Apple, and also capped the charges phones companies make.  I guess we'll find out in the following few years!

The main ones will stay as they are already enshrined under UK law, they don't suddenly disappear... There are some several thousand smaller regs that will need to be revisited.

Did you vote?
 

Offline Augustus

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #731 on: June 24, 2016, 11:22:44 am »
Applause from master moron Trump and the Kremlin, that's the moment when you realize you messed it up big time. Congrats Brits, I'm sure the grass outside of the EU will be much greener and rainbows everywhere. Best of luck, Bye...  :palm:
Greetings from the Black Forest, Germany
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #732 on: June 24, 2016, 11:32:18 am »
The decision has been taken. Our pro-EU PM has declared he'll resign, and no doubt others will follow. Now can we please just get on and negotiate how best to proceed from here without all the bluff and bluster?
The Scottish and Irish are already sharpening their knifes to become independant from the UK in order to stay in the EU. What will Gibraltar do? This may as well be the end of the UK as we know it.

And even then seeing is believing. According to the news the EU wants the papers delivered next week but Mr Johnson wants to take things slower. Cameron made a smart move by resigning so he is not involved in the shit storm that is about to land.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Towger

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #733 on: June 24, 2016, 11:37:12 am »
Appart from the companies who mainly trade in Europe, farmers will be the next most affected.  Many of them rely on yearly large handouts from Brussels.  For some it is up to 60% of their income.  This is what the bulk of the money paid to Europe is used for.  One can only assume these repayments will have to be replaced by local ones, if the government want to keep food prices etc at the same levels.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 11:39:34 am by Towger »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #734 on: June 24, 2016, 11:49:59 am »
I'm hoping all those 9 out of 10 economists that predicted much needed insane house price falls due to brexit are right...  But I'm not holding my breath :palm:

Falling house prices is the last thing we need.

Actually, where I live that's exactly what's needed. You need to be earning in excess of £150k to be able to afford a £500,000 mortgage on a studio apartment. That is largely due to speculative foreign investors, many of whom don't even rent out their places, they just sit on them, enjoying capital growth while looking forward to liquidating the asset at some time in the future. I am sure this is true for other hotspots around the world, I believe Australia actually brought in legislation to limit this kind of investment.

There is some fear around mortgage rates increasing while property prices decrease since the Brexit. A base rate increase has been on the cards for some time irrespective. What I would say though is that a correction at least gives more people a chance who'd otherwise not be in a such a position, largely irrespective of any base rate rise.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #735 on: June 24, 2016, 11:55:58 am »
I'm hoping all those 9 out of 10 economists that predicted much needed insane house price falls due to brexit are right...  But I'm not holding my breath :palm:

Falling house prices is the last thing we need.
Actually, where I live that's exactly what's needed. You need to be earning in excess of £150k to be able to afford a £500,000 mortgage on a studio apartment.
This is typical 'kicking against large capital' thinking. I'm quite sure there are only a handful of investors like this. For the majority of the home owners their retirement fund is their home. Falling house prices will mean many people will see their retirement fund go down the drain which in turn will have dire consequences for the (local) economy because these people will have much less to spend.

You'll also need to take inflation into account. My own home also increased in value but my interest rate has been less than 2% over the period (>10 years) I own it.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 12:00:02 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #736 on: June 24, 2016, 11:57:55 am »
And even then seeing is believing. According to the news the EU wants the papers delivered next week but Mr Johnson wants to take things slower.

That's fine. I don't doubt for a moment that a speedy resolution would be perceived as best for the remaining EU members, but that's no longer the overriding concern. The whole point of the referendum was, after all, about regaining the ability for the UK - and not anyone else - to make decisions about what's best for the UK.

I suspect this will cease to be an issue once some of the individual people involved get over themselves.

Quote
Cameron made a smart move by resigning so he is not involved in the shit storm that is about to land.

Of course; we couldn't have a leader entrusted to do something he's so publicly spoken out against doing at all.

Not only that, but let's not forget that before the referendum he was sent to Europe to try and make a last ditch attempt to negotiate a better deal for the UK, but he came back empty handed. (Was this reported outside the UK at all? It was major news here).

Both he and other EU leaders knew the referendum was going to happen, and that if he didn't come back with enough really solid, worthwhile concessions to alleviate concerns back home, there was a good chance we'd vote to leave. Given the slim margin by which the 'leave' vote won, he wouldn't have had to sway many people.

Yet despite that, he failed, and IMHO that alone made him a poor choice to represent us in Europe.

Moreover, his failure also made it very clear that even when the threat of the UK leaving was looming, other EU leaders weren't prepared to listen and to accept the need for change. That first wake-up call didn't work. Maybe the second will?

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #737 on: June 24, 2016, 12:01:34 pm »
The decision has been taken. Our pro-EU PM has declared he'll resign, and no doubt others will follow. Now can we please just get on and negotiate how best to proceed from here without all the bluff and bluster?
With politicians involved? - unlikely.

Boris Johnson, one of the leading Brexiteers, has just made what he no doubt hopes is a statesmanlike speech emphasising his desire for the United Kingdom to remain very much a part of Europe.
We have just voted to leave, the campaign stressed the importance of controlling our own borders for which we need to leave pretty unambiguously - if we wind up with some EEA membership deal with acceptance of free movement of labour what have we actually achieved?

I note that Cameron has decided against invoking Article 50 immediately. That is not the position he took during the campaign.

While I felt that we should stay, and I still do, we have voted to leave. We should bloody well get on with it.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #738 on: June 24, 2016, 12:07:32 pm »
Moreover, his failure also made it very clear that even when the threat of the UK leaving was looming, other EU leaders weren't prepared to listen and to accept the need for change. That first wake-up call didn't work. Maybe the second will?
What makes you think the EU can't work without the UK? In the end countries are free to leave and the UK already had a special status (like closed borders). At some point you have to say goodbye to one and other if you can't agree on terms to work together.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #739 on: June 24, 2016, 12:17:55 pm »
Moreover, his failure also made it very clear that even when the threat of the UK leaving was looming, other EU leaders weren't prepared to listen and to accept the need for change. That first wake-up call didn't work. Maybe the second will?
What makes you think the EU can't work without the UK? In the end countries are free to leave and the UK already had a special status (like closed borders). At some point you have to say goodbye to one and other if you can't agree on terms to work together.

The wish to leave will spread. Politicians in other countries are already asking for referendums. And a lot of prior referendums have been run on fear and peoples fear of leaving - where now less people will worry so more referendums will vote leave.

I think the vote was stupid because it was Black & White (In/Out) - should have been "In/Out or Out unless EU reform" - but as the vote is only an advisory to the government and not legally binding  - UK could still chose to stay - but it would require some major rework of how EU works.

But lets see what happens once the dust settles. Right now the EU bosses are shaking in fear and coming up with all kind of demands to the UK and threats of retaliation.

But EU DESERVED a kick in the b*tt but got a kick in the b*lls

 

Offline 3db

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #740 on: June 24, 2016, 12:21:58 pm »
So what will be the differences?

I don't think anyone has any real idea what the consequences will be, which is why the financial markets are in such turmoil.

Boris Johnson, one of the leading Brexiteers, has just made what he no doubt hopes is a statesmanlike speech emphasising his desire for the United Kingdom to remain very much a part of Europe.

Financial markets LOVE turmoil !!
That's when they make the most money.
 

Offline Kalvin

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #741 on: June 24, 2016, 12:24:10 pm »
What do you think, will David Cameron become Sir David Cameron or not? That will tell everything.
 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #742 on: June 24, 2016, 12:24:43 pm »
We're bound to come last in the Eurovision Song Contest next year...
 
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Offline 3db

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #743 on: June 24, 2016, 12:25:29 pm »
The decision has been taken. Our pro-EU PM has declared he'll resign, and no doubt others will follow. Now can we please just get on and negotiate how best to proceed from here without all the bluff and bluster?
With politicians involved? - unlikely.

Boris Johnson, one of the leading Brexiteers, has just made what he no doubt hopes is a statesmanlike speech emphasising his desire for the United Kingdom to remain very much a part of Europe.
We have just voted to leave, the campaign stressed the importance of controlling our own borders for which we need to leave pretty unambiguously - if we wind up with some EEA membership deal with acceptance of free movement of labour what have we actually achieved?

I note that Cameron has decided against invoking Article 50 immediately. That is not the position he took during the campaign.

While I felt that we should stay, and I still do, we have voted to leave. We should bloody well get on with it.

That's what the eurocrats want.
Therefore it's smarter to use that as a negotiating lever.
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #744 on: June 24, 2016, 12:26:41 pm »
What do you think, will David Cameron become Sir David Cameron or not? That will tell everything.
It's pretty much guaranteed as an Ex PM isn't it?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #745 on: June 24, 2016, 12:27:07 pm »
Moreover, his failure also made it very clear that even when the threat of the UK leaving was looming, other EU leaders weren't prepared to listen and to accept the need for change. That first wake-up call didn't work. Maybe the second will?
What makes you think the EU can't work without the UK? In the end countries are free to leave and the UK already had a special status (like closed borders). At some point you have to say goodbye to one and other if you can't agree on terms to work together.
I think the vote was stupid because it was Black & White (In/Out) - should have been "In/Out or Out unless EU reform" - but as the vote is only an advisory to the government and not legally binding  - UK could still chose to stay - but it would require some major rework of how EU works.
Well the way it looks now the UK got itself in a huge mess and it is very unclear whether there really is a real advantage of the UK leaving. Yes, the people of the UK have full control over there country but what good does that do if that means having no work? Seeing your retirement fund go down the drain due to dropping house prices? Increased prices for food and fuel? Having to put up with whatever trading rules the US, EU, Russia,  China and OPEC dictate?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #746 on: June 24, 2016, 12:28:28 pm »
I think the vote was stupid because it was Black & White (In/Out) - should have been "In/Out or Out unless EU reform" - but as the vote is only an advisory to the government and not legally binding  - UK could still chose to stay - but it would require some major rework of how EU works.

But we'd already expressed the need for reform, and we were told 'no'.

A vote for "yes, we'll stay, but things really, really need to change now" would just have left politicians arguing for years to come over what constituted enough of a change, and nothing would ever happen besides further ill will and uncertainty.

Offline FrankD

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #747 on: June 24, 2016, 12:30:22 pm »
The good ol' British sausages can now go back to less than 35% meat content.   :-DD
 

Offline Homer J Simpson

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #748 on: June 24, 2016, 12:34:57 pm »


UK votes to leave the UN.



 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #749 on: June 24, 2016, 12:39:04 pm »
Quote
I think the UK government will fight to remain in the EU single market

With Cameron gone, it is hard to expect the UK government to follow through on that. They will try to negotiate the best deals they can get now.

I predicted the demise of the Cameron government earlier here, should Brexit materialize. I think you will see the collapse of additional governments in Europe, particularly the left-leaning governments. There is a swing to the right across the continent. Not dissimilar to the time just before the rise of Hitler.

And you can thank all of that to the abuse of power / trust voters had given to the far left politicians over the last decade.

Quote
I'm fairly sure the vast majority of voters, from either side, didn't actually know what to expect

I think the voters know very well what the expect. It is the "experts" that fail to see through the fog of war.
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