Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 358755 times)

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Offline mtdoc

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1700 on: July 06, 2016, 04:43:18 pm »
My ego is big enough already, thank you very much.. ;D

That's a good start. Next challenge is to make it more justified and less needy.

Irony.

"Justify" and "need" are ego.

In my view, one can never have too much knowledge or too
little ego. These are both lifelong projects.
 

Offline Tomorokoshi

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1701 on: July 06, 2016, 05:03:11 pm »
I bet 20 bucks the Brexit won't actually happen  ;D

How do you mean? Australian or American?
 

Offline apis

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1702 on: July 06, 2016, 07:39:37 pm »
In my view, one can never have too much knowledge or too
little ego. These are both lifelong projects.
Those are honourable goals. :-+
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1703 on: July 06, 2016, 09:07:06 pm »
I bet 20 bucks the Brexit won't actually happen  ;D
How do you mean? Australian or American?
Definitely not pounds  :-DD :-DD
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1704 on: July 06, 2016, 09:16:41 pm »
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline apis

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1705 on: July 06, 2016, 09:53:02 pm »
I don't know what everyone is bashing the pound. Its been much worse, even now it still worth more then a euro. Before the vote it was on a mianly downward trajectory anyway.
Yup, it's been worse: 31 years ago! It was going downwards before the vote because people anticipated the outcome.
See if you can tell when the referendum was? ;D
:P
The Canadian dollar has also dropped because of the Brexit:


This is the correct graph:
 

Offline apis

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1706 on: July 06, 2016, 10:06:44 pm »
I bet 20 bucks the Brexit won't actually happen  ;D
How do you mean? Australian or American?
Definitely not pounds  :-DD :-DD

EUR < GBP

https://www.google.com/search?q=1+eur+in+gbp
The euro also dropped a little bit, about 2% compared to the pound 15% drop. That is: it might no longer be in a short while.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 10:14:26 pm by apis »
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1707 on: July 06, 2016, 10:18:07 pm »
I haven't seen many politicians talking about this.

The remain camp is absolutely right about one thing: the vote to leave is irrational and against the voters self interests. In the long run. Being able to trade freely with others is always welfare enhancing.

However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1708 on: July 06, 2016, 11:27:47 pm »
However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

The first part of that is pretty accurate. The latter part is standard neocon propaganda.

A real problem will arise when the turkeys (that did vote for Christmas) realise the claimed Brexit benefits are illusory and the unstated disadvantages hit them hard - and that the politicians aren't able to fix it. That's bad for democracy, which segues into...

Quote
I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.

The folks in the Weimar Republic did :( And that kind of "solution" isn't inconceivable here.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline Stonent

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1709 on: July 07, 2016, 12:11:01 am »
I haven't seen many politicians talking about this.

The remain camp is absolutely right about one thing: the vote to leave is irrational and against the voters self interests. In the long run. Being able to trade freely with others is always welfare enhancing.

However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.

You can always set up free trade deals without having to financially support countries that can't seem to get their accounts in order.
The larger the government, the smaller the citizen.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1710 on: July 07, 2016, 12:13:15 am »
Let me ask one simple question:

Did at any point in time was it stated that a simple majority of those who voted would result in an immutable obligation upon the UK government to exit the EU?

As far as I heard till now, the british referendum isn't binding, but a major politician(s)/party(s) (cameron?) promised he will treat is as binding.
But of course, "democracy" delivers many possibilities to put the people's will aside.

There has always been the possibility to Brexit, even if only 20% of the population wanted it.
Completely unthinkable, of course, witch shows in this case that the political class and bureaucracy will always only tend to more politics and more bureaucracy.

This is pretty much what I expected - and gives a clear reason for Cameron bailing out ASAP.  He didn't want to 'Leave' and when the referendum went the wrong way, he abdicated his position and took the obligation with him.




Let me ask one simple question:

Did at any point in time was it stated that a simple majority of those who voted would result in an immutable obligation upon the UK government to exit the EU?

Yes.

Cheers

Alex

Where can I find this?

Anybody?

(Or did I miss it?)
 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1711 on: July 07, 2016, 12:14:50 am »
The euro also dropped a little bit, about 2% compared to the pound 15% drop. That is: it might no longer be in a short while.

This is not even a peep in history scale . Compare with surrendering the sovereignty of a nation.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1712 on: July 07, 2016, 12:15:34 am »
I haven't seen many politicians talking about this.

The remain camp is absolutely right about one thing: the vote to leave is irrational and against the voters self interests. In the long run. Being able to trade freely with others is always welfare enhancing.

However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.

You can always set up free trade deals without having to financially support countries that can't seem to get their accounts in order.

I would have thought that would be a preferred option.  Limit the deal to trade and stay out of the minefield of internal fiscal policy of a trading partner.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1713 on: July 07, 2016, 12:31:38 am »
Compare with surrendering the sovereignty of a nation.

What does, or might, "sovereignty" mean in practice?

The ability to defend its citizens/subjects against external aggressors sounds like a good starting point. But if the Argentinians become argie again and re-invade the Falklands, we will have to beg the French to lend us their aircraft carrier. Not much sovereignty there :(

The ability to keep the electricity flowing is another good starting point. But we are currently begging the French to build a vitally needed nuke reactor, and the Chinese to lend us the money to pay for it. Not much sovereignty there :(

And there are many other similar examples which indicate that sovereignty is an outdated concept w.r.t. the UK and many other countries.

So it sounds like "sovereignty" is a feature not a benefit - and that its loss has nothing to do with the EU.

There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1714 on: July 07, 2016, 12:35:27 am »
I haven't seen many politicians talking about this.

The remain camp is absolutely right about one thing: the vote to leave is irrational and against the voters self interests. In the long run. Being able to trade freely with others is always welfare enhancing.

However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.

You can always set up free trade deals without having to financially support countries that can't seem to get their accounts in order.

You seem to be missing two essential details
  • the 27 must crucify the UK in order to demonstrate that leaving the EU is worse than staying in the EU. That will make any deal difficult.
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1715 on: July 07, 2016, 12:37:26 am »
Let me ask one simple question:

Did at any point in time was it stated that a simple majority of those who voted would result in an immutable obligation upon the UK government to exit the EU?

Yes.

Ignorant nonsense. The referendum is "advisory", to use the official term.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1716 on: July 07, 2016, 01:57:38 am »
  • trade deals .... will be tied to the free movement of labour

I don't see how that needs to be.
 

Offline Delta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1717 on: July 07, 2016, 02:03:51 am »
What does, or might, "sovereignty" mean in practice?

That the highest court that can rule on UK matters is in the UK, with UK appointed judges.

That the highest level of government in the UK is the UK parliament.

That the UK can choose who may or may not come to live / work in the UK.


It's quite simple really.   :palm:
 

Offline Delta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1718 on: July 07, 2016, 02:05:26 am »
This is by far the most sensible assessment of Brexit.  As one would expect from the best rappers that Wales has ever produced!

 
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Offline IanB

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1719 on: July 07, 2016, 02:16:59 am »
  • trade deals .... will be tied to the free movement of labour

I don't see how that needs to be.

It's how a single market works. The business interests lobbying for EU integration want a larger market without trade barriers in which to sell their products, and they want a bigger labour market without migration barriers in which to hire their workers. Since labour costs are the single biggest cost for any business, the free movement of labour is critical to the value of a trade deal. One without the other is only half a deal.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1720 on: July 07, 2016, 03:56:49 am »
  • trade deals .... will be tied to the free movement of labour

I don't see how that needs to be.

It's how a single market works. The business interests lobbying for EU integration want a larger market without trade barriers in which to sell their products, and they want a bigger labour market without migration barriers in which to hire their workers. Since labour costs are the single biggest cost for any business, the free movement of labour is critical to the value of a trade deal. One without the other is only half a deal.

It seems to me that that depends on the labour force being inadequate - and that there would be no other controls on immigration that would enable essential skills to be admitted.

But, I'm no economics expert - so I'll step back from this topic.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1721 on: July 07, 2016, 04:03:02 am »
It seems to me that that depends on the labour force being inadequate - and that there would be no other controls on immigration that would enable essential skills to be admitted.

But, I'm no economics expert - so I'll step back from this topic.

What I'm really trying to say (just my opinion) is "follow the money". Any time you find a policy being promoted, and it is not immediately obvious why it should be needed, you can look to see who stands to gain from it financially.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1722 on: July 07, 2016, 05:50:53 am »
If you look into American politics we had NAFTA the "North American Free Trade Agreement" which ended up being anything but free trade. I don't think I've met a single person in the US, Left, Right, or Center that thinks we were better for it.

Remember this part too...

People who want to do harm to western countries find it easy to move about in the EU.  There was an interview I saw with one area in the UK that had the highest percentage of leave votes and they cited their number one concern as being the people coming in under the guise of being a refugee who has bad things planned.

You see the news stories of women being assaulted by recent refugees and what do you expect? People are going to get nervous about it.

The larger the government, the smaller the citizen.
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1723 on: July 07, 2016, 08:20:44 am »
People who want to do harm to western countries find it easy to move about in the EU.  There was an interview I saw with one area in the UK that had the highest percentage of leave votes and they cited their number one concern as being the people coming in under the guise of being a refugee who has bad things planned.
Being that the UK is not part of Schengen it is pretty silly to blame the EU for that.
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Offline jancumps

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1724 on: July 07, 2016, 08:44:29 am »
I haven't seen many politicians talking about this.

The remain camp is absolutely right about one thing: the vote to leave is irrational and against the voters self interests. In the long run. Being able to trade freely with others is always welfare enhancing.

However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.

You can always set up free trade deals without having to financially support countries that can't seem to get their accounts in order.

You seem to be missing two essential details
  • the 27 must crucify the UK in order to demonstrate that leaving the EU is worse than staying in the EU. That will make any deal difficult.
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there

No crucifixion is happening. We're not there to crucify UK. We're trying to wind off the process so that things stabilise again,
 and we can once more have a resourceful and honourable relation with UK.
 


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