Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 347947 times)

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Offline apis

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1875 on: July 10, 2016, 11:57:23 am »
Remember the UK is much further down this road than Sweden
So Sweden isn't in such a bad shape after all.
Phew, I was beginning to think I might have to emigrate! :phew:

To vote for SD is the same as declaring that you are not a decent person (might even be objectively true  ::) ). But even without going with the SD, you wouldn't want other people to think that you are one of "nassarna" (i.e., the nazis) by voicing critical opinions on immigration. PC is a strong force.
We call them nazis because they are nazis. That's what the Danish don't understand about the Swedish radical right. 30 years ago SD was openly nazi sympatisers. Denmark is a bit naive in this regard. Look at what happened in Norway. The extreme right is de facto a bigger threat than isis in Scandinavia, but it get less attention.

Having worked closely with Police in Denmark for many years - I can say until about 2012 all Danish crime stats detailing religion or origin was not allowed.
In the 1990s it was basically impossible to get official figures for how many immigrants there were in the country. There is one difference - which I think is very important - when comparing Denmark to Sweden. There is, and has been all along, a discourse about immigration and the pros and cons of it in Denmark. I think that has been instrumental in avoiding the kind of extremism that can be found in Sweden. It serves as a safety valve that makes it difficult for neo-nazi style groupings to gain traction simply because it is possible to debate the issue instead of just pretending that it doesn't exist. Not surprisingly the left regularly complains about this discourse and would prefer it could be stopped like in Sweden.
That is a common point of view in Sweden as well, and there might be some truth to it, but it's far from as simple as that. The facist/nazi groups in Sweden have been active here long before the Iraq war caused refugees to seek safe harbor in EU, the refugees just gave them something to whine about. The fact is, SD does not have more support in Sweden than DF in Denmark, or similar parties all over Europe. They have been growing all over Europe regardless of the immigration policies or how much immigration has been discussed.

 

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1876 on: July 10, 2016, 12:15:36 pm »
I agree with much of what you say and your motivations.
I don't see the EU being the cause of the problem.
I do see the EU being where the problem is manifested, because that's where the relevant power lies.
When the relevant power lies in the UK, exactly the same problems will manifest themselves in the UK.

Summary: I agree with your starting point, but your conclusions are misguided and won't solve the cause of your (and my) dissatisfaction.


Indeed the EU itself is not a problem it's a wonderful idea. The problem is people our so-called politicians. Politics is a popularity contest politicians don't do system engineering and that is what running a country should be about. You have a system and you have to manage it and the system breaks down into subsystems with their own managers but instead we make policies that are popular but not good because people are not interested in what is right people are interested in what they have decided is right for them and that is not generally in the interest of everybody else. As we are not grown-up enough to have a political system that covers such a wide area I think that at the moment we are much safer and better off having smaller political systems that learn from each other and cooperate. When the day comes that we have all realised that we are doing in the same way then maybe it is time for us to unite. Once we have united and got things done properly then and only then it would be time to have a common currency. Instead we have done things totally and utterly backwards. We have created a superstate of countries that are not suited to sit together yet we have introduced a common currency while the countries belonging to this currency are wildly different. The EU has become a way of influencing the countries that join it for better or worse not a system in which a number of equal and modern countries sit together and work together. If country needs its people to emigrate in mass something is wrong with that country. Nobody has yet so maybe statistics of how many people leave the UK for work and how many people are leaving other countries for work. Why do people within the EU a political union of so-called equal countries need to move from one side of the EU to the other? Isn't this a contradiction of the EU? There is freedom of movement and there is high levels of immigration the EU seems to confuse them terribly. And now we confuse trade deals with corporate empire. The EU in my opinion is not working overall. I'm sure many parts of it worked beautifully and many people in EU politics are good people but I'm afraid overall I do not feel it is working. I'm not against the concept but we need to grow up 1st both as a society and politically.

In my mad world I would make a law that anybody entering politics needs to have an engineering qualification or a background in engineering preferably of the systems and integration type. Popularity contests don't help anybody but the people winning or losing them. Our referendum has been a clear example of that people did not vote for the issue they voted for the person and in many cases they voted for people who have now dropped everything and ran.
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1877 on: July 10, 2016, 12:17:46 pm »
We call them nazis because they are nazis. That's what the Danish don't understand about the Swedish radical right. 30 years ago SD was openly nazi sympatisers. Denmark is a bit naive in this regard.
Oh, we know that they are and that there have been nazis in Sweden since the very beginning of that movement. In Denmark nazism never really got a foothold. The various groupings even during the German occupation, like the DNSAP, The Anti Jewish League, etc., didn't even have the support of the occupiers. The present day groups are so few and weak that they aren't even worth taking seriously.

The fact is, SD does not have more support in Sweden than DF in Denmark, or similar parties all over Europe. They have been growing all over Europe regardless of the immigration policies or how much immigration has been discussed.
SD and DF aren't really comparable(*). DF routinely rid themselves of true extremists and are in many ways more akin to the social democrats. They don't have the same roots as SD. But that is beside the point which is that the lack of discourse in Sweden makes it easier for fringe groupings with anti-democratic views to fester in the dark and grow ever more extreme; because there is no safety valve - no moderate outlet for discontent - all in the name of PC and sitting on high horses.

(*) Addendum: DF is in the ECR group in the European Parliament, like the Tories.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 12:31:05 pm by Tepe »
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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1878 on: July 10, 2016, 12:24:33 pm »
In the UK we have Britain 1st and there are a number of other similar groups. I think Britain 1st has actually registered as a political party. The UK Independence party that was headed by Nigel Farage was extremely borderline and he was often accused of dog whistle politics. In fact he had a cunning habit of saying something that sounded controversial and then getting a chance to clarify himself so for every time he opened his mouth he actually got into the media twice and of course a lot taught about him and his party. I hope that without him the UK Independence party falls to pieces. Although it has matured slightly as a political party I don't really see any need for it it is just a further right wing version of the Tory party. Or rather it's the Tory party for poor people.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1879 on: July 10, 2016, 01:05:49 pm »
Not worrying about unchanging human characteristics, but concentrating on just one point..

I agree with much of what you say and your motivations.
I don't see the EU being the cause of the problem.
I do see the EU being where the problem is manifested, because that's where the relevant power lies.
When the relevant power lies in the UK, exactly the same problems will manifest themselves in the UK.

Summary: I agree with your starting point, but your conclusions are misguided and won't solve the cause of your (and my) dissatisfaction.

We have created a superstate of countries that are not suited to sit together yet we have introduced a common currency while the countries belonging to this currency are wildly different.

That raises the question of what's the "right size" for a currency. Sunderland's and London's economies are wildly different and people move between them - why not have separate currencies and immigration borders?


Quote
Our referendum has been a clear example of that people did not vote for the issue they voted for the person and in many cases they voted for people who have now dropped everything and ran.

Yes indeed. As many of us predicted :(
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1880 on: July 10, 2016, 01:10:30 pm »
Well I'm no economist but it's pretty clear to me that we should not meddle with the current status when it comes to currencies. I'm not particularly a lover of big cities so I don't quite get for example why London is much more expensive but if there was ever an argument to be made I would say that we should vote for London to become independent to piss off and fund itself. But all capitals are the same. The value of money in different areas of the country does seem to be supply and demand based on how nice that part of the country years or how many jobs there are.

The whole political and economic situation each country has is born out of its history and for the EU to come along and unite them all with one currency is just pointless. And you can make the same argument for the ability to migrate. Just now I was listening to a programme about ethnic minorities moving out of areas they traditionally lived in the UK to other areas of the UK. This is something that we can just look at and discuss in one country but when it's happening across different countries it starts to be more of just a point of discussion can become a problem. We have no jobs here we have no land so why do some political factions seem to think that every man and his dog come over here? Will they still hold the same beliefs when we are one person to every 10 m²? Sometimes I wonder.
 
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Offline apis

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1881 on: July 10, 2016, 01:17:19 pm »
The fact is, SD does not have more support in Sweden than DF in Denmark, or similar parties all over Europe. They have been growing all over Europe regardless of the immigration policies or how much immigration has been discussed.
SD and DF aren't really comparable(*). DF routinely rid themselves of true extremists and are in many ways more akin to the social democrats. They don't have the same roots as SD. But that is beside the point which is that the lack of discourse in Sweden makes it easier for fringe groupings with anti-democratic views to fester in the dark and grow ever more extreme; because there is no safety valve - no moderate outlet for discontent - all in the name of PC and sitting on high horses.

(*) Addendum: DF is in the ECR group in the European Parliament, like the Tories.
I agree it's a different situation in Denmark. That is why SD have been treated differently in Sweden than DF in Denmark. It is not because of political correctness. A similar thing is happening all over Europe, if it was because of some sort of special Swedish political correctness it should only happen in Sweden, but it's not, so it can't be that. In fact, the radical right are complaining about political correctness, real or imagined, in all countries these days. It's simply an effective piece of propaganda.

It took DF a long time to realize what SD is. DF used to be buddies with SD, they supported SD until a few years ago, giving them money and helped them with propaganda, etc. I still think maybe Denmark are a bit naive about DF as well since you have been spared the kind of extremism that Sweden have had to cope with since the war. SD also claims to "routinely rid themselves of true extremists", using much of the same rhetoric that DF have used, and they are now about the same size (i.e. they appeal to the same demographics). And as I said, the same thing is happening in rest of Europe, and the US/Canada, it's an international phenomena.
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1882 on: July 10, 2016, 01:27:33 pm »
It took DF a long time to realize what SD is. DF used to be buddies with SD, they supported SD until a few years ago, giving them money and helped them with propaganda, etc. I still think maybe Denmark are a bit naive about DF as well since you have been spared the kind of extremism that Sweden have had to cope with since the war. SD also claims to "routinely rid themselves of true extremists", using much of the same rhetoric that DF have used, and they are now about the same size (i.e. they appeal to the same demographics). And as I said, the same thing is happening in rest of Europe, and the US/Canada, it's an international phenomena.
The apparent importance and influence of DF is greatly inflated in the Swedish political discourse where it used as a boogeyman. Should they ever manage to become part of a coalition government, they would very likely crash and burn in internal quarrels much like the Socialist People's Party (SF) did when they were in a coalition government with Social Democrats and the Social Liberals from 2011-2014. The strain of having to compromise was too much for them to bear and they ended up crawling back to where they came from. I think the same will happen to DF and I also think they they know it. It is easier to yell from the sidelines than to take responsibility.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1883 on: July 10, 2016, 02:53:42 pm »
Well I'm no economist but it's pretty clear to me that we should not meddle with the current status when it comes to currencies.

Why not? You are sufficient of an economist to say the euro is "wrong", and "meddling with" currencies is not new - and it continues.

What's so perfect about the current status? Why wouldn't it be better for Sunderland if they had their own currency? If you have have a reason to believe one currency is right/wrong, then you also have sufficient information to say why a Sunderland Pound is wrong/right.

For some alternatives, some of which are already operating, some of which are backed by sterling, consider

And then there's the movement to enable local high-street businesses to do their business abroad, just like the multinationals.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1884 on: July 10, 2016, 03:01:39 pm »
Well I'm no economist but it's pretty clear to me that we should not meddle with the current status when it comes to currencies.

Why not? You are sufficient of an economist to say the euro is "wrong", and "meddling with" currencies is not new - and it continues.

What's so perfect about the current status? Why wouldn't it be better for Sunderland if they had their own currency? If you have have a reason to believe one currency is right/wrong, then you also have sufficient information to say why a Sunderland Pound is wrong/right.

For some alternatives, some of which are already operating, some of which are backed by sterling, consider

And then there's the movement to enable local high-street businesses to do their business abroad, just like the multinationals.


Natural and people driven progressions are one thing a barely stable political powerhouse enforcing a new currency over a group of countries not ready for it is totally different. I'm not sure what you mean about high-street doing business abroad. I do know there is a movement of local shops trying to form a group so that they are powerful enough to either register themselves in a tax haven or demand better treatment from the tax authorities just like big business. Their aim is not actually to follow through with this but to threatened and demonstrate to the government that if we all do not pay our fair share there will be nothing left.

The Bristol Pound for example looks more like a membership scheme that allows discounts you essentially accrue your membership points by spending in the local community and getting back a type of money that can only be spent in the town so they have effectively devalued themselves by a small amount to try and encourage people to spend the money in the town rather than outside. I don't think this is the sort of currency situations we are talking about it is more of a movement to promote local shopping which is something I myself do believe in and do do but I don't go out and spend Rushden pounds because Rushden does not have its own pound and that does not stop me preferring to shop in local shops. For example I paid £240 for 3 sets of curtains but one of those sets was completely made from scratch by the lady in the shop and the other 2 sets she had to shorten from a off-the-shelf pack so I provided some local work rather than buying my curtains from a shop that would have made them entirely made in China. This was of course a very expensive exercise and now I have just acquired 2 kittens I am deeply worried my investment is going to go down the drain pretty quickly and I could not afford to spend so much locally again on the same items.
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1885 on: July 10, 2016, 03:23:07 pm »
Are present-day Brits to blame for what Brits did in the past?
We should stop apologising for ourselves. I personally never went over to any country and stuck my flag it white should I feel guilt the something I did not do?

That wasn't what I meant.

Simply that if you are going to import other cultures then you can expect them to want to live at they would at home. In the case of the present cultures of literal Islam that involves a whole pile of retrograde practices.
I think what the Left expected is that all this would fit seamlessly into British culture and nobody would mind. What should have happened is that all their offensive cultural baggage like FGM, burkas, sharia, praying in the street etc should have been banned from the outset.

If you want the British to visit your country, then it's likely that some of them will drink excessively and be a noisy pain. If you permit them to do this because you don't want to offend their cultural preferences, then that's your problem. What you should do is kick them out.
 

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1886 on: July 10, 2016, 03:27:32 pm »
Yes I do rather object to immigrant ghettos where you have entire housing estates full of people from one culture keep to themselves and live their own way. Presumably if it wasn't for economic reasons and it was true freedom of movement people came here because they like this country and our way of life if that is the case they can bloodily well live by it if they want to live like they are in the middle of the African desert they should go back there. I believe tourists visiting various countries are often required to respect their culture this is a thing that should work both ways.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1887 on: July 10, 2016, 03:37:23 pm »
Well I'm no economist but it's pretty clear to me that we should not meddle with the current status when it comes to currencies.

Why not? You are sufficient of an economist to say the euro is "wrong", and "meddling with" currencies is not new - and it continues.

What's so perfect about the current status? Why wouldn't it be better for Sunderland if they had their own currency? If you have have a reason to believe one currency is right/wrong, then you also have sufficient information to say why a Sunderland Pound is wrong/right.

For some alternatives, some of which are already operating, some of which are backed by sterling, consider

And then there's the movement to enable local high-street businesses to do their business abroad, just like the multinationals.

I'm not sure what you mean about high-street doing business abroad. I do know there is a movement of local shops trying to form a group so that they are powerful enough to either register themselves in a tax haven or demand better treatment from the tax authorities just like big business.

That's the idea.

Quote
The Bristol Pound for example looks more like a membership scheme that allows discounts you essentially accrue your membership points by spending in the local community and getting back a type of money that can only be spent in the town so they have effectively devalued themselves by a small amount to try and encourage people to spend the money in the town rather than outside.

Nope, it is more than that...
I can pay my council tax in Bristol Pounds: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-24130847
"From Goldbrick House to Blackboy Hill Cycles, more than 300 of Bristol’s independent traders [will] welcome the Bristol Pound alongside sterling." http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/bristol-pound-point/story-16935709-detail/story.html
Mayor takes salary in Bristol Pounds(!) https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/nov/20/mayor-salary-bristol-pounds

So, again I ask: "What's so perfect about the current status? Why wouldn't it be better for Sunderland if they had their own currency? If you have have a reason to believe one currency is right/wrong, then you also have sufficient information to say why a Sunderland Pound is wrong/right."
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1888 on: July 10, 2016, 03:41:11 pm »
Yes I do rather object to immigrant ghettos where you have entire housing estates full of people from one culture keep to themselves and live their own way.

Well, when we emigrated to and ruled the British Empire, we lived in immigrant ghettos. And that wasn't due to poverty!

But I agree, ghettos are not a good thing.
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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1889 on: July 10, 2016, 03:41:24 pm »
So what is the value of this currency? How many pounds is a pound from Bristol or Sunderland or where ever worth? does that is value go up and down?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 03:45:17 pm by Simon »
 

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1890 on: July 10, 2016, 03:44:49 pm »
Yes I do rather object to immigrant ghettos where you have entire housing estates full of people from one culture keep to themselves and live their own way.

Well, when we emigrated to and ruled the British Empire, we lived in immigrant ghettos. And that wasn't due to poverty!

But I agree, ghettos are not a good thing.

And as I said before I would hope we don't do things like that anymore. Although I have to say when I lived in Italy all the English and other foreign people seem to live down the same road although this would generally be a country road with various houses on it that they had bought. When you have Indians killing their daughter because she wanted to integrate into British culture you have a big big problem. I'm not saying I expect people to lose their identity and forget where they came from but expecting to run by rules and laws of their own religions or countries is not acceptable and trying to prevent their children from integrating is not acceptable. We used to have a supervisor at work who is Indian and he pretty much hated everybody who is British and if he had his way would have replaced them all with Indians. He has left and somebody else has taking over his role but the machine shop still needed a new person as that was where he worked as well as being a supervisor stop another Indian person has joined us but he is totally different embraces our way of living he still has the identity and he showed us that by buying a particular type of Indian delicacy when there was an Indian religious festival but he doesn't act as though he is something different from us his attitude is totally different from the previous guy.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1891 on: July 10, 2016, 03:52:32 pm »
So what is the value of this currency? How many pounds is a pound from Bristol or Sunderland or where ever worth? That is value go up and down?

Answers don't affect the question as to the right "size" of a currency area (but see FAQs if you wish).

So, again I ask: "What's so perfect about the current status? Why wouldn't it be better for Sunderland if they had their own currency? If you have have a reason to believe one currency is right/wrong, then you also have sufficient information to say why a Sunderland Pound is wrong/right."
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1892 on: July 10, 2016, 03:55:50 pm »
Yes I do rather object to immigrant ghettos where you have entire housing estates full of people from one culture keep to themselves and live their own way.

Well, when we emigrated to and ruled the British Empire, we lived in immigrant ghettos. And that wasn't due to poverty!

But I agree, ghettos are not a good thing.

And as I said before I would hope we don't do things like that anymore.

But, as you point out, we continue to do just that.

Quote
Although I have to say when I lived in Italy all the English and other foreign people seem to live down the same road although this would generally be a country road with various houses on it that they had bought.

Mensch ist mensch. People are people. Human behaviour doesn't change. Chiantishire. The Costas. Etc, etc.
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Offline bitslice

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1893 on: July 10, 2016, 03:56:45 pm »
We call them nazis because they are nazis. That's what the Danish don't understand about the Swedish radical right. 30 years ago SD was openly nazi sympatisers. Denmark is a bit naive in this regard. Look at what happened in Norway. The extreme right is de facto a bigger threat than isis in Scandinavia, but it get less attention.

You seriously compare the current crop of far right organisations to the Nazis?
Well it's a nice sound bite but it's pretty devoid of reality.

What you have is no different to any other country in Europe, everyone has a standing population of say 20% of voters who are essentially xenophobic.
Britain has about 25%, with about 0.1% that you could describe as far right, and of that maybe a few hundred actual neo nazis who like to pose in front of flags or whatever.
France has consistently always had a larger xenophobic voter base, but still only around 30%

The groups you imagine are "Nazis" are little more than pressure groups wishing for less immigration and a return to something like the 1950's in terms of values.
That's it - No death camps, no invasions, no master race, no marching in formation.

Actually the nearest we come to Nazi ideology is the current demonisation of Jews within Corbyn's so called progressive Labour party.

Even the term "racist", so loved by the New Totalitarian Left, is utterly meaningless. What people generally feel disgruntled with is the friction from other alien cultures.
But then calling the working class "racist" and "nazi" has always been a more efficient way of censoring debate, than calling someone "anti-cultural".


"The extreme right is de facto a bigger threat than ISIS in Scandinavia"

Err, what do you imagine the extreme right are going to do? Wear horned helmets in public and pillage the local supermarket?

This is what the ISIS supporters in Sweden are already doing to you:
https://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/

Prisoners in your own country, what a joke.

By ignoring the problem, Sweden is naively contributing at least another 300 ISIS terrorists to the world
http://www.sakerhetspolisen.se/download/18.4f0385ee143058a61a89f3/1392294843261/Reportonviolence-promotingIslamistextremisminSweden.pdf



 

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1894 on: July 10, 2016, 03:56:57 pm »
Well like I said I'm no economist but to me if pound equals a pound it's not exactly a different currency it's more of a local movement to promote shopping and dealing with in the local area. The euro is something totally different. The euro unites different countries of different economic strengths and it did so overnight. The some reason the strength of a currency is linked to the strength of its government so how can you have a coherent single currency when the collective of nations that back it have a constantly shifting economic power between them? I'm not saying a unique currency is a bad thing it actually bloodily helpful but given that the strength of the currency is linked to the government that backs it the euro will only truly work and not be a problem when you do have a United States of Europe which we don't at the moment. If we all grew up and our politicians also grew up and we decided as a people not just as governments that we all wanted to live by the same laws and do things the same way then a common currency would make sense. As things stand it seems to either benefit certain people and disadvantaged others or just create a general shambles.
 

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1895 on: July 10, 2016, 04:02:22 pm »
Yes I do rather object to immigrant ghettos where you have entire housing estates full of people from one culture keep to themselves and live their own way.

Well, when we emigrated to and ruled the British Empire, we lived in immigrant ghettos. And that wasn't due to poverty!

But I agree, ghettos are not a good thing.

And as I said before I would hope we don't do things like that anymore.

But, as you point out, we continue to do just that.

Quote
Although I have to say when I lived in Italy all the English and other foreign people seem to live down the same road although this would generally be a country road with various houses on it that they had bought.

Mensch ist mensch. People are people. Human behaviour doesn't change. Chiantishire. The Costas. Etc, etc.

Well we certainly don't expect to drive on the left-hand side of the road do we? I am of course talking of a single experience of a single area and it should also be remembered that other countries are not as welcoming to immigrants as we are and I can say that because I was an immigrant in somebody else's country and for 14 years I suffered harassment and was bullied because I was not from the local area despite the fact I am partly Italian but then most people did not even realise where I was actually from and didn't know that I was related to one of the most important families in the area at 1 point people thought I was Albanese because they are so ignorant in southern Italy that all foreigners come from the country that at the moment is supplying most of the immigration they haven't even got to the point of being able to differentiate between cultures. So on balance I would actually say that it's no surprise people would want to live with other people that they felt comfortable with. What they should however do is endeavour to learn the language and interact with people which I'm afraid not all do but you can say the same for people who come to the UK they live in closed communities and don't bother to learn English and then we are the ones who have to fund foreign speaking police officers just so that we can sort their shit out and understand their interpretation of our laws.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 04:06:06 pm by Simon »
 

Online george.b

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1896 on: July 10, 2016, 06:00:14 pm »
Quote
The extreme right is de facto a bigger threat than isis in Scandinavia

Hahah, yeah, you keep telling yourself that.

Quote
Look at what happened in Norway.

What, this?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3528236/Male-Norwegian-politician-raped-asylum-seeker-says-feels-GUILTY-attacker-deported-man-suffer-Somalia.html
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1897 on: July 10, 2016, 06:27:11 pm »
Yes I do rather object to immigrant ghettos where you have entire housing estates full of people from one culture keep to themselves and live their own way.

Well, when we emigrated to and ruled the British Empire, we lived in immigrant ghettos. And that wasn't due to poverty!

But I agree, ghettos are not a good thing.

And as I said before I would hope we don't do things like that anymore.

But, as you point out, we continue to do just that.

Quote
Although I have to say when I lived in Italy all the English and other foreign people seem to live down the same road although this would generally be a country road with various houses on it that they had bought.

Mensch ist mensch. People are people. Human behaviour doesn't change. Chiantishire. The Costas. Etc, etc.

Well we certainly don't expect to drive on the left-hand side of the road do we? I am of course talking of a single experience of a single area and it should also be remembered that other countries are not as welcoming to immigrants as we are and I can say that because I was an immigrant in somebody else's country and for 14 years I suffered harassment and was bullied because I was not from the local area despite the fact I am partly Italian but then most people did not even realise where I was actually from and didn't know that I was related to one of the most important families in the area at 1 point people thought I was Albanese because they are so ignorant in southern Italy that all foreigners come from the country that at the moment is supplying most of the immigration they haven't even got to the point of being able to differentiate between cultures. So on balance I would actually say that it's no surprise people would want to live with other people that they felt comfortable with. What they should however do is endeavour to learn the language and interact with people which I'm afraid not all do but you can say the same for people who come to the UK they live in closed communities and don't bother to learn English and then we are the ones who have to fund foreign speaking police officers just so that we can sort their shit out and understand their interpretation of our laws.

In the British Empire we didn't bother to learn johnny foreigner's lingo; indeed we went one step further forced them to learn English! On the Costas many shops sell marmite, full English breakfasts, and Watney's red barrel :)

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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1898 on: July 10, 2016, 06:31:27 pm »
Well like I said I'm no economist but to me if pound equals a pound it's not exactly a different currency it's more of a local movement to promote shopping and dealing with in the local area. The euro is something totally different. The euro unites different countries of different economic strengths and it did so overnight. The some reason the strength of a currency is linked to the strength of its government so how can you have a coherent single currency when the collective of nations that back it have a constantly shifting economic power between them? I'm not saying a unique currency is a bad thing it actually bloodily helpful but given that the strength of the currency is linked to the government that backs it the euro will only truly work and not be a problem when you do have a United States of Europe which we don't at the moment. If we all grew up and our politicians also grew up and we decided as a people not just as governments that we all wanted to live by the same laws and do things the same way then a common currency would make sense. As things stand it seems to either benefit certain people and disadvantaged others or just create a general shambles.

You're struggling towards answering "what's the right size of a currency", and are almost there. Unfortunately the answer will have consequences you haven't anticipated if this happens: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/10/brexit-vote-paves-way-for-federal-union-says-all-party-group
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Online Simon

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1899 on: July 10, 2016, 06:31:45 pm »
And I don't object to foreign food unlike many Brits. Although I would never consider myself Italian I eat plenty of Italian food and will happily regale anybody with tales of how good it is as opposed to the muck we eat. I will happily eat foods from other nations. The problem arises when we have groups of people who remain isolated and expect to continue in the ways of their own country even if these are incompatible with those of the country they are in. When I lived in Italy I learned to speak Italian I was not given any special treatment other than the teacher getting various classmates to help me but no extra teaching staff were paid to teach myself or my sister and we were expected to learn the language as we did. We went right through school in Italian did all of the exams and came out with Italian qualifications for what they are totally not worth not that English qualifications are worth that much anymore anyway. I am fluent in Italian.
 


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