Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 348059 times)

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Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1925 on: July 11, 2016, 09:38:25 am »
It's ironic though, you brits start an illegal war with the US in Iraq and in the aftermath millions of people are on the run for war and then you refuse to do your part?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3682639/Iraq-war-illegal-says-Blairs-former-deputy.html
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1926 on: July 11, 2016, 09:41:20 am »
It is the job of the country where they arrive first, for example Greece, to sort that out. They didn't. Instead they just lat the pass through in violation of the Schengen agreement.  Greece (to stay with our example) should have rejected everybody whose asylum applications are groundless as well as anybody who doesn't apply for asylum.
Pffff they came with millions unexpected, Greece was bankrupt and never had any EU support to take care of that many people.
What should have happened was that the entire EU helped Greece from day one to handle the huge amount of people and take in those that were recognized as legal refugees.
And sent back those that were not. Neither happened, the EU was in meetings thinking what to do. I am still waiting for a good answer.
Lets face it, no-one in the EU was prepared for this. If it was your country that was in the south you would have flooded also and would not have handled it any better.
 
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Offline 3db

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1927 on: July 11, 2016, 09:59:32 am »
What we need in this century is less centralisation of power but more cooperation between countries using modern tools.

Be careful what you wish for; you may get it.

Power finds a way. Where political power wanes, corporate power becomes ascendant. Unlike political power, corporate power is not accountable to the likes of thee and me; it is only accountable to its shareholders.

That way lies the TTIP.

And it's consumers !!
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1928 on: July 11, 2016, 10:05:42 am »
If it was your country that was in the south
But it isn't.

Greece has a quite large military they can use for man power to screen migrants. There are no excuses for them sitting on their hands.
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Offline Jeroen3

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1929 on: July 11, 2016, 10:08:53 am »
But to listen to the news, cops shoot first when it's a black suspect and whites are treated with kid-gloves.  It would be funny to observe how the media paints this stuff if it wasn't such a serious subject.
Suspect shot by police during traffic stop  :-\
Black guy shot by police during traffic stop  :scared:
Since you will only read news that agrees with you, there is a positive feedback loop that will continue to amplify.
The news fakes and inflates everything. I know people who've worked there. They'll shoot for an hour, and if they don't get the perfect shot of an event they had hoped for, they recruit some people to act. They are that desperate.

And you do not "just deploy the military" within your own borders. That is a big moral no-go. They assist with natural disaster, but as soon as you need military intervention against people in your country, all has collapsed.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1930 on: July 11, 2016, 10:44:03 am »
If it was your country that was in the south
But it isn't.
Greece has a quite large military they can use for man power to screen migrants. There are no excuses for them sitting on their hands.
Sitting on their hands? Have you watched the news the last year? Don't be ridiculous. The Danish wouldn't have done it one bit better and you know it.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1931 on: July 11, 2016, 10:59:17 am »
"That's 0.67 people a year. The population of the US is 57 times that of Denmark so that would make it equivalent to the police in the USA shooting 38 people dead every year."

There are about 1100 policy related deaths a year in the US. And if you take out the angels, that number goes to about 750.

In comparison, 30,000 to 40,000 people are killed each year in traffic accidents, and 2,000 in the great city of Chicago YTD alone.

Freedom is expensive and it is up to the people to decide if the trade off is worth it. The people in Denmark made a decision they are happy with. That doesn't mean the same decision is the right one (or the wrong one) for the people in other countries.

Democracy is all about letting other people determine their own course, whether you agree or not is irrelevant.
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1932 on: July 11, 2016, 11:01:19 am »
It's ironic though, you brits start an illegal war with the US in Iraq and in the aftermath millions of people are on the run for war and then you refuse to do your part?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3682639/Iraq-war-illegal-says-Blairs-former-deputy.html
It's spitting hairs, I know, but the Yanks started it - we just tagged along.

Otherwise I agree.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1933 on: July 11, 2016, 11:06:19 am »
"It is the job of the country where they arrive first, for example Greece, to sort that out. "

If so, it should be the right of those countries to decide the manner, timing, and amount of refugees they want to take in, not those countries that do NOT take in those refugees.

It is like I bus in a bunch of refugees to your house and insist that you take everyone of them in, whenever I dump them on your door front.

Those interior EU countries who insist on the current EU laws, and who advertise their "acceptance" of refugees should be chanllenged to step up to the plate and honor their words, not just paying lip services.

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Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1934 on: July 11, 2016, 11:08:30 am »
Democracy is all about letting other people determine their own course
Actually it has nothing to do with that  :P
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1935 on: July 11, 2016, 12:31:45 pm »
Democracy is all about letting other people determine their own course
Actually it has nothing to do with that  :P

Just so. I am continually amazed at the almost religious sentiments and misunderstandings about democracy.

Democracy has never been the solution.

Democracy is just one of several different ways of finding solutions - with relative disadvantages as well as relative advantages.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1936 on: July 11, 2016, 12:53:35 pm »
Those interior EU countries who insist on the current EU laws, and who advertise their "acceptance" of refugees should be chanllenged to step up to the plate and honor their words, not just paying lip services.
Germany and Sweden did - until they finally decided enough is enough.
ceterum censeo systemd-inem esse delendam
 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1937 on: July 11, 2016, 01:23:44 pm »


It's ironic though, you brits start an illegal war with the US in Iraq and in the aftermath millions of people are on the run for war and then you refuse to do your part?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3682639/Iraq-war-illegal-says-Blairs-former-deputy.html

We freed them from a dictator and set free elections. Unfortunately for them, they preferred to shoot each other instead of building their country. Now you let them destroy yours. Good luck.

Drain the swamp.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1938 on: July 11, 2016, 01:27:21 pm »
We freed them from a dictator
The CIA put him there in the first place  :palm:
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1939 on: July 11, 2016, 01:40:21 pm »
We freed them from a dictator
Do you have any current plans for what to do about the other 50 or so current dictatorships?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 01:54:59 pm by Tepe »
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Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1940 on: July 11, 2016, 01:43:41 pm »
We freed them from a dictator
The CIA put him there in the first place  :palm:
More importantly, he had been naughty
ceterum censeo systemd-inem esse delendam
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1941 on: July 11, 2016, 01:53:11 pm »
Lately when the US messes with world politics I do get the flashback of the first 4 minutes of "Team America: World Police"

 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1942 on: July 11, 2016, 02:12:09 pm »
We freed them from a dictator
Do you have any current plans for what to do about the other 50 or so current dictatorships?

Me? No I don't plan this kind of things. Personally I prefer having foreign nations sorting out their internal affairs, regardless how ugly they are or how desperately they ask for help. The world is an ungrateful place.

Drain the swamp.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1943 on: July 11, 2016, 02:16:32 pm »
We freed them from a dictator
The CIA put him there in the first place  :palm:
Indeed. All the problems in the middle East are f*ck-ups from the US. Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, you name it and there has been some involvement of the US which enabled the mess we are dealing with now. Just read some history.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1944 on: July 11, 2016, 02:18:18 pm »
We freed them from a dictator
The CIA put him there in the first place  :palm:
Indeed. All the problems in the middle East are f*ck-ups from the US. Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, you name it and there has been some involvement of the US which enabled the mess we are dealing with now. Just read some history.
Continue reading that history. Don't stop at an arbitrary time that seems to prove your point.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1945 on: July 11, 2016, 02:27:15 pm »
We freed them from a dictator
The CIA put him there in the first place  :palm:
Indeed. All the problems in the middle East are f*ck-ups from the US. Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, you name it and there has been some involvement of the US which enabled the mess we are dealing with now. Just read some history.
Continue reading that history. Don't stop at an arbitrary time that seems to prove your point.

It's the blame-america-first approach. I see it also here coming from the left. It fits their oppressor/victim view of the world.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1946 on: July 11, 2016, 02:38:04 pm »
It's the blame-america-first approach. I see it also here coming from the left. It fits their oppressor/victim view of the world.

OK, now this is just getting silly. The USA has had a policy of exerting military power beyond its borders and interfering in the affairs of other nations for a really long time. There is nothing imagined about this.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1947 on: July 11, 2016, 02:39:45 pm »
What the world needs to understand about US police shootings is that the video they see bears no resemblance to what actually happened.  Oh, and every witness lies!

Remember Ferguson, MO?  Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, had that officer convicted of outright murder.  But some of the witnesses (most of them actually) flat out lied!  They couldn't have seen what they said they saw, they weren't even there!

So, what happens when the case is presented to the grand jury?  Nothing!  There was no indictment, the officer was found to be in compliance with all rules and training and, even though his life and career are trashed, he is free to go.  It is said that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich but, in this case, there was no possible justification to prosecute the officer.  Oh, and the Feds?  They dropped the case as well.  After all the grandstanding for the media, they quietly walked away.  That was a righteous shooting regardless of what the media portrayed.  The officer has every right to protect himself and the bad guy had every opportunity to call it off.  The bad guy made a bad choice.  They do that!  That's why they are the bad guys.

Again, we are rushing to judgement on Minnesota and Louisiana.  I have no idea what happened but I doubt that it looked at all like the video.  Even as bad as the Freddie Gray (Baltimore) case seems, I notice they aren't getting any convictions.

You can't compare the demographics of the US with homogeneous societies like Denmark.  We have a very serious problem with a percentage of our population.  No education, no jobs, no role models, drugs, gangs, and so on.  Look at Chicago with over 2000 shootings year to date.

http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/shootings/

We are so screwed...

 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1948 on: July 11, 2016, 02:43:08 pm »
We freed them from a dictator
Do you have any current plans for what to do about the other 50 or so current dictatorships?
Me? No I don't plan this kind of things. Personally I prefer having foreign nations sorting out their internal affairs, regardless how ugly they are or how desperately they ask for help. The world is an ungrateful place.

Yes, but the Pax Americana goes with being "top dog" and is necessary to ensure free trade - which significantly benefits America.
A century ago the Pax Britannica fulfilled the same function.
Two millennia ago the Pax Romana was doing the same.
And there are many other examples.

So please don't pretend any largesse is solely altruistic!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline rstofer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1949 on: July 11, 2016, 02:52:41 pm »
It's the blame-america-first approach. I see it also here coming from the left. It fits their oppressor/victim view of the world.

OK, now this is just getting silly. The USA has had a policy of exerting military power beyond its borders and interfering in the affairs of other nations for a really long time. There is nothing imagined about this.

That's true and I really wish we would knock it off.  We need to get out of South Korea, Japan and Europe as soon as possible.  We pump billions into those economies that we could better use around here.

And we certainly need to get out of the Middle East - today would be good.  But what happens?  Obama comes to power saying he was going to wrap up these wars and close Guantanamo.  None of that happened.  He has the distinction of being at war longer than any other president.

Why on God's Green Earth are we building up US forces in eastern Europe?  If Russia wants Poland back, let them have it!  It's not a US problem.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/poland-hold-biggest-nato-manoeuvres-amid-russia-tensions-171355952.html

The good news about Social Security in the US is that it will bankrupt the military.  There simply won't be enough money to pay both and it's not politically popular to attack us oldtimers.  We may be old and cranky but we VOTE!

 


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