Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 348425 times)

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Offline apis

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1975 on: July 11, 2016, 04:31:11 pm »
That may be the reason why so many choose to come to Sweden. But if we start lowering our standards in order to try to make the refugees go to some other country instead, it will become a race to the bottom. Every country will keep lowering their standards so they don't end up with Sorteper. So it's not really a solution.
They have to be lowered at some point. There is a limit to how many people your society can absorb at a rapid rate. Currently you have about 27% of Sweden's population having at least one foreign born parent. The Swedish government must have thought that limit had been reached since it decided to closer the borders.
No they wouldn't have had to be lowered if all other European countries did their part, Sweden can not absorb all the refugees coming into EU, nor can any other European country, but if the refugees were distributed evenly each country would have received less refugees than Germany per person. Yes there is a limit to how many can be absorbed per unit of time, and Sweden reached that limit for a few weeks last year as you say. The border isn't closed, there is a temporary border control, anyone who wants can still apply for asylum. It's mostly a piece of theater for the locals, and it doesn't cause trouble for people in Stockholm so they don't care.
As for the 27%: when I grew up I had a friend who's mom was from Denmark, and another one who's mom was from Poland. They were both cool despite that. ;) :-+
Now there are about 5% muslims in Sweden, mainly refugees because of the Iraq wars as well as the war in afghanistan, the ones I know are also decent people.

The liberal family reunion rules wouldn't be a problem if the refugees were distributed evenly among the member countries. Then all countries could have whatever rules they wanted.
It won't work for two reasons. One is the one I mentioned earlier, that people have the right to move freely so it will be rather pointless to try to confine them to specific parts of the EU. The other one is, of course, that it is abundantly clear that a number of EU countries are against any kind of redistribution of immigrants.
As I said before I don't think people will move once they have become comfortable in one place. As for the second point, there is a minority that opposes the idea, but they may yet see the light.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1976 on: July 11, 2016, 04:34:50 pm »

I think they will either, head for a new general election, because the main opposition (labour) are potentially weak at the moment, and suffering from their own leadership battles.

Or they will press on, and handle the article 50 thing.

I'm NOT sure which they will do. If it is the general election option, I presume they will delay the article 50, until AFTER the new elections.

It makes sense to stabilize the new leadership before pulling article 50 and negotiating with the remaining EU. Otherwise you will have two fronts.
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Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1977 on: July 11, 2016, 04:42:37 pm »
The border isn't closed, there is a temporary border control, anyone who wants can still apply for asylum.
They can apply for asylum if they manage to reach Swedish soil. Your government is shrewd, though, and it introduced "transportöransvar" (which it is its right to according to the Schengen rules) so they can fine rail and bus companies that transport immigrants with phoney papers or none at all to Sweden. As a result, the companies refuse to let people whose papers are not in order continue to Sweden from Denmark.
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Offline MK14

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1978 on: July 11, 2016, 04:50:35 pm »

I think they will either, head for a new general election, because the main opposition (labour) are potentially weak at the moment, and suffering from their own leadership battles.

Or they will press on, and handle the article 50 thing.

I'm NOT sure which they will do. If it is the general election option, I presume they will delay the article 50, until AFTER the new elections.

It makes sense to stabilize the new leadership before pulling article 50 and negotiating with the remaining EU. Otherwise you will have two fronts.

That makes quite a lot of sense.

On a more practical level. Hopefully, now that the NEW prime minister is settled. The financial aspects of Brexit, such as the value of the Pound, will begin to stabilize.

Much of the Electronics and computing stuff, is essentially priced relative to the dollar. So on a personal level, I would NOT like the pound to be low valued, for a huge length of time (when I want to buy stuff). On the other hand, a low valued pound, creates many opportunities for people to export stuff, and make a healthy profit.

So I guess it is just swings and roundabouts. I.e. There are pros and cons, either way.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1979 on: July 11, 2016, 04:51:23 pm »

Plus dominant powers, US included, aren't averse to ensuring the local strong man is friendly to the US. Start by considering what happened to the democratically elected President Allende in Chile, and then move onto later examples.

It started well before Allende. The 1953 CIA coup to overthrow the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran and install a US friendly dictator - the Shah - all at behest of the Oil interests. This can be argued, was the precursor for all the current problems with US/Ismlamic relations. Blowback...

This was closely followed the 1954 CIA coup to overthrow the democratically elected President of Guatemala and install a US friendly military dictator friendly to the United Fruit Company.

And on it goes - US intelligence and military used to further our corporate/economic interests abroad.....

But we are not unique. It's not an American trait - it is a human trait.   Other empires have done the same throughout history - the British, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Ottoman, Romans, etc, etc...  It's just now we are all currently living with the consequences of the actions of the US empire.

Yes on all counts.

My use of "start" was ambiguous; I meant zapta should first consider and then move onto other examples. Chile/Allende is simply one of the more well-documented, modern and egregious examples.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1980 on: July 11, 2016, 05:00:24 pm »

I think they will either, head for a new general election, because the main opposition (labour) are potentially weak at the moment, and suffering from their own leadership battles.

Or they will press on, and handle the article 50 thing.

I'm NOT sure which they will do. If it is the general election option, I presume they will delay the article 50, until AFTER the new elections.

It makes sense to stabilize the new leadership before pulling article 50 and negotiating with the remaining EU. Otherwise you will have two fronts.

You presume it can be stabilised.

The two halves of the Tory party are still at war with each other. Ditto Labour. And even the UKIP mob (and I use that word advisedly) divide into brexit-max and brexit-lite tribes.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline MK14

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1981 on: July 11, 2016, 05:04:33 pm »

You presume it can be stabilised.

The two halves of the Tory party are still at war with each other. Ditto Labour. And even the UKIP mob (and I use that word advisedly) divide into brexit-max and brexit-lite tribes.

Sadly, I have to agree with you.

HOPEFULLY it will help stabilise the situation, but as you say, it might NOT!

Anyway, I would at least expect that it should improve the situation at least a bit. Otherwise there would have been a long delay (9 weeks) before we get to where we are now.

 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1982 on: July 11, 2016, 05:08:29 pm »

You presume it can be stabilised.

The two halves of the Tory party are still at war with each other. Ditto Labour. And even the UKIP mob (and I use that word advisedly) divide into brexit-max and brexit-lite tribes.

Sadly, I have to agree with you.

HOPEFULLY it will help stabilise the situation, but as you say, it might NOT!

Anyway, I would at least expect that it should improve the situation at least a bit. Otherwise there would have been a long delay (9 weeks) before we get to where we are now.

Indeed.

It is unlikely to make things worse, just to move them on to the next stage (and that next stage may be better or worse than the current stage).
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline retrolefty

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1983 on: July 11, 2016, 05:29:08 pm »
Quote
We are not even homogeneous even within an individual state.  California is a perfect example where the population centers have one set of beliefs and the agricultural areas have another.  It is a perfect example of the tyranny of the majority where the entire Central Valley is unrepresented in decision making. Ever wonder why there is a North Carolina and South Carolina?  How about North Dakota and South Dakota, Virginia and West Virginia?

One of the bigger issues is that the US Senate is very undemocratic, with every state getting two representatives. 
Wyoming, population 600,000 - 2 senators
California, population 39,000,000 - 2 senators

This allows the much more conservative small states to hold on to the Senate when that is in no way representative of the people.

 This was/is a feature of the U.S. Constitution. The Senate as you stated were to represent a specific State with equal representation with other States. The House of Representatives was tasked with representing the interests of the people based on population density subject to adjustment by the decade U.S. census. Originally each State legislature selected their two senators rather then by the people of the State in general elections as now practiced.

 I think that was a pretty cleaver design.  Recall that neither the House or the Senate can pass laws by themselves and only then if the President allows the law to be implemented by not using his/her veto power.

 Checks and balances as they say. Even the general public's 'power' needs to be subject to a balance of power as tyranny can come from any quarter.
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1984 on: July 11, 2016, 06:32:07 pm »
...
Checks and balances as they say. Even the general public's 'power' needs to be subject to a balance of power as tyranny can come from any quarter.
Especially the general public's power:

Quote from: Alexander Hamilton
It has been observed by an honorable gentleman that a pure democracy, if it were practicable, would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position in politics is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.

The Brexit vote has just admirably demonstrated the tyranny of the majority.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1985 on: July 11, 2016, 06:43:35 pm »
Why on God's Green Earth are we building up US forces in eastern Europe?  If Russia wants Poland back, let them have it!  It's not a US problem.
The problem is that when the US pulls back the people in the US will focus their attention on the (huge) domestic problems and expect solutions from the politicians. Creating a foreign enemy to distract voters from real issues at hand is the oldest trick in the political book to gain the freedom to do whatever a politician wants. Fortunately for the politicians in the US the communist wich hunt in the 50's has instilled so much fear that even today there a lots of gullible suckers which will do whatever is necessary to avoid the Russian communist thread even though the USSR no longer exists and Russia has become Capitalist with the Capital C.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 06:47:00 pm by nctnico »
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1986 on: July 11, 2016, 06:54:18 pm »
...even though the USSR no longer exists and Russia has become Capitalist with the Capital C.

Maybe a threat is still there but the names have changed?

Of course, the threat of turning off the gas supply is probably more effective than military force.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline rstofer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1987 on: July 11, 2016, 08:16:58 pm »
The US always needs a boogeyman.  It was the Russians for a while, the Chinese, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, whomever.  We need to focus our attention away from the problems we have at home.

And then we have the Washington Post publishing inflammatory stuff like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/white-americas-biggest-nightmare-black-men-who-violently-sow-disillusionment/2016/07/09/dd89a77e-4617-11e6-8856-f26de2537a9d_story.html

Does it seem to anybody that I am losing sleep over this stuff?

Anybody remember Janet Napolitano and the DHS stating that the biggest threat of terrorism in the US was from returning veterans and members of certain 'extremist' groups like the NRA?  I do...  And now she's the Chancellor of the University of California:



Always looking for a boogeyman!



 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1988 on: July 11, 2016, 10:28:38 pm »
"We freed them from a dictator and set free elections. "

Tough to appreciate your freedom when you are dead.

I don't for a second believe that bush went into the war for oil. I think he went in with a noble goal of giving those people freedom.

I think he is fundamentally wrong in that doing so imposes his value system onto a people not ready for it. In that perspective, he is no different from Taliban, in their desires to impose their value systems onto others forcefully.

There is some truth to the notion that the US is the biggest risk to peace. Just look at the number of wars over the last 100 years, especially since the downfall of the USSR.

Because of that, I'm the biggest supporter of foreign policy principles of Obama, Trump and Paul. They all called for minimum use of military forces overseas, with a focus on homeland defense.

Unfortunately we have a Republican congress that doesn't understand why you have a strong military, a defense secretary who doesn't appreciate us strategic interests, and some generals whose more interested in fighting wars than fighting off us enemies.

In the end, a strong military can lead the US to its own demise, aka USSR replay.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1989 on: July 11, 2016, 10:35:09 pm »
The US always needs a boogeyman.

It is a standard tactic across the ages, all over the world.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1990 on: July 11, 2016, 10:51:39 pm »
If you follow MAD, a peaceful world consists of plarity of comparable powers who are committed to each other's destruction. Oxymoron of the ultimate kind.

A multipolar world is in everyone's long term interests, including the US's as well.
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Offline Zero999

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1991 on: July 12, 2016, 11:06:45 am »
The liberal family reunion rules wouldn't be a problem if the refugees were distributed evenly among the member countries. Then all countries could have whatever rules they wanted.
That's hardly fair either. Things such as: land area, existing population density, existing levels of immigration, availability of housing need to be taken into account, before deciding how many refugees a country should take.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1992 on: July 12, 2016, 11:37:44 am »
Now there are about 5% Muslims in Sweden, mainly refugees because of the Iraq wars as well as the war in Afghanistan, the ones I know are also decent people.

Decent people, but often with an indecent religion ... with few signs of becoming any more decent.

In my opinion the reason Judaism reformed and softened away from the old testament was weakness and the inability of the community to police its own (although if by some fluke of history the temple and Sanhedrin get reconstituted I think it's going to get ugly too, their absence is a corner stone for much of the justification for the softening and Israel's secularism). For Islam globalization, Saudi wealth and the increasing visibility of divergent beliefs has elevated community policing to a global level in a way which in the past would only have been possible on a local level. The Ahmadis had an easier time when the hate for them had to spread by word of mouth.

I think the opportunity for reform from within Islam itself has passed for the moment.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 12:10:56 pm by Marco »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1993 on: July 12, 2016, 11:47:24 am »
Now there are about 5% Muslims in Sweden, mainly refugees because of the Iraq wars as well as the war in Afghanistan, the ones I know are also decent people.
Decent people, but often with an indecent religion ... with no signs of becoming any more decent.
Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with that. I'm not religious myself but I don't see any mainstream religion in itself as evil.
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1994 on: July 12, 2016, 11:51:21 am »
Quote
I think the opportunity for reform from within Islam itself has passed.
Naah it is a question of time and exposure to different ways of living.
Look at Indonesia, the laws became more stringent each year and there came an anti movement, illegal bars (beer and other alcohol was forbidden), clothing for women etc.
Now the government is changing its laws because a lot of people think they went too far.
Also in SA you see young twentiers partying and dancing on music etc. etc. The whole system is based on fear, if you do something wrong you will be horribly punished, but a lot of people do not want to live anymore accoding to these stringent rules, so they will leave.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1995 on: July 12, 2016, 12:24:10 pm »
Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with that. I'm not religious myself but I don't see any mainstream religion in itself as evil.

That's nice, it's not reciprocal.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

This Surah is recognized as being written during his last campaign, the section is known as the ultimatum. I'd rather not condemn anyone to that ultimatum.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1996 on: July 12, 2016, 12:31:14 pm »
The whole system is based on fear, if you do something wrong you will be horribly punished, but a lot of people do not want to live anymore accoding to these stringent rules, so they will leave.

If they truly leave, ie. public apostasy, it's generally accompanied by leaving to the west.

Islam is caught in an oscillation between non-observance and revivalism, but the death penalty for apostasy maintains its core doctrine and hold on a population pretty well.
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1997 on: July 12, 2016, 12:39:28 pm »
The liberal family reunion rules wouldn't be a problem if the refugees were distributed evenly among the member countries. Then all countries could have whatever rules they wanted.
That's hardly fair either. Things such as: land area, existing population density, existing levels of immigration, availability of housing need to be taken into account, before deciding how many refugees a country should take.
I am pretty sure that's actually what Apis meant.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1998 on: July 12, 2016, 12:41:25 pm »
Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with that. I'm not religious myself but I don't see any mainstream religion in itself as evil.
That's nice, it's not reciprocal.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."
It doesn't say kill or injure but then again it may be an inaccurate translation. You'll probably find similar phrases in all religious scriptures.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1999 on: July 12, 2016, 01:20:26 pm »
It doesn't say kill or injure but then again it may be an inaccurate translation. You'll probably find similar phrases in all religious scriptures.

What, they are going to shine a bright light into my eyes till I pay Jizyah?

The New Testament doesn't really do prescribed Earthly punishment or conquering by the sword, you shun people and the rest is up to government. The Torah is full of stuff like that (and Rambam is a bit of an asshole as well) but because of their concept of oral Torah and the absence of the Temple they have a ton of leeway, few would be able to find doctrinal justification for stoning reform Judaists (with enough mental gymnastics you can read anything into anything, it's just a lot easier in Islam).
 


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