Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 350206 times)

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Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2150 on: July 15, 2016, 09:07:32 pm »
In ways that matter to me (as opposed to, say, a sovereign and hangers on), the TTIP is a far greater threat to "sovereignty" than the EU. Outside the EU we will have to bend over and accept the TTIP.

???? TTIP is EU only it won't apply to the UK. And it's the crazy woman who's negotiated it.
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2151 on: July 15, 2016, 09:08:01 pm »
Well I guess Turkey isn't going to be joining the EU anytime soon:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36809083

What is happening to the world?!  :scared:
Chris

"Victor Meldrew, the Crimson Avenger!"
 

Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2152 on: July 15, 2016, 09:08:42 pm »

It's been 2 weeks. How fast do you expect things to happen?
 

Offline apis

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2153 on: July 15, 2016, 09:42:23 pm »
Only then will the UK and the EU be able to begin negotiating new trade agreements and under what conditions the UK can have access to the single market, and so on.
I'm replying to the bolded section.
My understanding was that the new trade agreements and relationships would be part of the exit agreement.
I.e. The new trade agreements would start up, the instant we "physically" leave the EU.

But I am not brilliant with knowing how the EU works and does things. So I can easily accept being wrong here.
I'm no expert either but it's what the EU trade commissioner has said:

Quote
Britain will not be able to start talks on a new trade arrangement with the EU until other aspects of its exit have been settled, the trade commissioner, Cecilia Malmström has said.

“There are actually two negotiations. First you exit, and then you negotiate the new relationship, whatever that is,” she said.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto

Cecila Malmstrom, the unelected (but nominated, bless) trade commissioner, is the epitomy of everything that is wrong with the EU. Have you read the proposals for TTIP for example? No, because you can't. So much for accountability, transaparency and representation. She can, she's the unelected head honcho, but your elected MEP can't, not unless they lock themselves away in a room without phones and cameras or copying equipment. And you and me, no. Journalists, no.  Stuffed. We are not allowed to know anything of is agreement until it's a done deal.

This, from the most pro-EU media outlet in UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ttip-controversy-the-european-commission-and-big-tobacco-accused-of-cover-up-after-heavily-redacted-10473601.html
Head honcho or not, she's trade commissioner and would know how the EU wants the negotiations to be conducted.

I know more about TTIP than I care to and I'm not a fan either. But I don't think leaving the EU will help the UK in this matter since the UK government is one of the governments that have been pushing TTIP most enthusiastically. (Like Sweden I'm sad to say, which is likely why a swede was appointed trade commissioner.) You are at the back of the queue now, but worry not your turn will come, and then you will not have the other 27 backing you up or helping by pulling the brake like many of the other EU countries have been doing.

But I agree that the lack of transparency is a huge problem in EU that needs to be fixed. A problem with TTIP is that the other party (the USA) must also agree to make the negotiations public, so it's not only up to the EU.
 

Offline apis

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2154 on: July 15, 2016, 09:45:37 pm »
Well I guess Turkey isn't going to be joining the EU anytime soon:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36809083

What is happening to the world?!  :scared:
Yeah, meanwhile in Turkey... :o
 

Offline apis

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2155 on: July 15, 2016, 09:48:53 pm »
So Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson as foreign secretary, that was a bit odd. Not so much that he has insulted people/countries, but will he have the respect of his peers? Seems to me that would be important for a top diplomat. Appears like he is being rewarded by PM May with this position. Can't really make heads or tails of this. :-//
Neither can I.

The least bad explanations that make any sense to me are that she is setting him up to fail (unlikely, since that is setting the UK up to fail), or that she is trying to keep the Tory party together (and bugger the negotiations and UK). More devious (and less likely) explanations can be invented, of course.
The most ridiculous explanation is that he is the best person to represent the UK.
I also put a pund bill behind he was appointed to finally ruin himself of any future political positions. After all he did win 'most offensive Erdogan poem' competition and he called Hillary a bitchy dragon or something similar.
"A map of all the countries Boris Johnson has offended"

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/updated-a-map-of-all-the-countries-boris-johnson-has-offended--W1zaTLC63rW?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100
 

Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2156 on: July 15, 2016, 09:56:36 pm »
Or other countries may also end up exiting the EU
How? It was political suicide for Cameron to hold that referendum. Why would any other government want to follow his example? I am not aware of any similar state of affairs in other governments regarding the EU as the one in Cameron's cabinet and hinterland.
ceterum censeo systemd-inem esse delendam
 

Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2157 on: July 15, 2016, 10:01:08 pm »
So Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson as foreign secretary, that was a bit odd. Not so much that he has insulted people/countries, but will he have the respect of his peers? Seems to me that would be important for a top diplomat. Appears like he is being rewarded by PM May with this position. Can't really make heads or tails of this. :-//
Neither can I.

The least bad explanations that make any sense to me are that she is setting him up to fail (unlikely, since that is setting the UK up to fail), or that she is trying to keep the Tory party together (and bugger the negotiations and UK). More devious (and less likely) explanations can be invented, of course.
The most ridiculous explanation is that he is the best person to represent the UK.
I also put a pund bill behind he was appointed to finally ruin himself of any future political positions. After all he did win 'most offensive Erdogan poem' competition and he called Hillary a bitchy dragon or something similar.
"A map of all the countries Boris Johnson has offended"

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/updated-a-map-of-all-the-countries-boris-johnson-has-offended--W1zaTLC63rW?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100

Ooh he's nearly got the full set!
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2158 on: July 15, 2016, 10:01:52 pm »
Or other countries may also end up exiting the EU
How? It was political suicide for Cameron to hold that referendum. Why would any other government want to follow his example? I am not aware of any similar state of affairs in other governments regarding the EU as the one in Cameron's cabinet and hinterland.

Referendums no, but general elections are conceivable way to make it happen. That is to be avoided if at all possible, hence... see my previous comments.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2159 on: July 15, 2016, 10:02:13 pm »
And while it's a massive deal for the UK, it's not a massive deal for EU; it's actually a relatively small deal, that is why it will get lower priority than a deal with the US. :-\
There will probably be those in Brussels who will breathe a sigh of relief when Britain has left. A major obstacle to the union project will have been removed...
ceterum censeo systemd-inem esse delendam
 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2160 on: July 15, 2016, 10:07:24 pm »


That's brilliant!
So true, so so true!

True?

1. They didn't try to pull the handle yet.

2. They want to leave the EU, not to join it.

Anyway, cats are awesome.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2161 on: July 15, 2016, 10:11:10 pm »
Or other countries may also end up exiting the EU
How? It was political suicide for Cameron to hold that referendum. Why would any other government want to follow his example? I am not aware of any similar state of affairs in other governments regarding the EU as the one in Cameron's cabinet and hinterland.

I agree, that those currently in power, may decide to not do it. But on the other hand, later there will be fresh general elections (in coming years).

So let's say the time has come for a new general election, in a different EU country.

For arguments sake the current main party there usually gets 55% of the votes, and the opposition 45%.
If the main party declares giving no referendum, if they win the elections.
Then the weaker (45%), opposition, may offer a referendum vote on leaving the EU, if they think they will get more votes (than they lose), by offering it.
If they then win the election, their referendum, may have the same result as ours.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2162 on: July 15, 2016, 10:11:37 pm »
"A map of all the countries Boris Johnson has offended"
Ooh he's nearly got the full set!
Fortunately he left making jokes about Belgians to the Dutch  >:D
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline MT

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2163 on: July 15, 2016, 10:12:42 pm »
@MT: aren't Portugal about to be fined for insufficient destruction of their economy EU imposed austerity measures?
How the hell should i know, im from Finland,but i do hope they will! ;D
 

Offline MK14

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2164 on: July 15, 2016, 10:18:54 pm »
True?

1. They didn't try to pull the handle yet.

2. They want to leave the EU, not to join it.

Anyway, cats are awesome.

Well I agree, it is far from pUrrfect (pun intended), but it is not bad, and at least funny for me.

One does get the impression, that lots of people are worried that they may have done the wrong thing (as regards the vote), and/or are worried about what will happen next, even though they voted to remain.

We (UK), haven't exactly been banging on the door, ready to sign Article 50. It still is not clear, when it is going to happen (be signed). At least we have the new Prime Minster (PM) and cabinet, ready to start the ball rolling. MP's will probably have to vote it in as well (technically speaking, but it should just be a technicality. But British politics, is never always that straight forward).
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 10:21:21 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline MT

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2165 on: July 15, 2016, 10:20:28 pm »
Me a british bleu shorthair/chartreux leaving EU? Noooeow!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 10:24:16 pm by MT »
 

Offline apis

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2166 on: July 15, 2016, 10:22:04 pm »
Anyway, cats are awesome.
Finally something I can agree with! ;D
 

Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2167 on: July 15, 2016, 10:30:44 pm »
"A map of all the countries Boris Johnson has offended"
Ooh he's nearly got the full set!
Fortunately he left making jokes about Belgians to the Dutch  >:D

I'm sure they don't all deserve what you guys say :)
 

Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2168 on: July 15, 2016, 10:32:24 pm »
@MT: aren't Portugal about to be fined for insufficient destruction of their economy EU imposed austerity measures?
How the hell should i know, im from Finland,but i do hope they will! ;D

You were flying a Portuguese flag. I see you have changed to another flag of convenience now. I'm obviously too easily confused.
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2169 on: July 15, 2016, 10:37:16 pm »
There seems to be a widespread misunderstanding that the "Brexit negotiations" will be to negotiate a deal more favourable to UK : i.e. trade but with immigration control. That is just not going to happen.

The negotiations are to decide what to do with all the outstanding payments, EU grants, EU and Brit nationals, how to repeal the EU legislation, what happens to Erasmus students, and all those loose ends.

The Swiss are currently trying to implement a binding referendum to introduce restrictions on immigration, but the EU are saying "no free movement; no free trade". I don't think the EU are going to make exceptions for anyone.

Meanwhile Turkey is going down the pan, and Italy's banks are teetering on the brink of collapse (the Italy problem many times worse than Greece). Euro-skeptic nationalists threaten to do well in elections in Italy, France and elsewhere. The EU project narrowly avoided disaster with Greece, the next upsets may prove terminal.
Bob
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Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2170 on: July 15, 2016, 11:00:54 pm »
There seems to be a widespread misunderstanding that the "Brexit negotiations" will be to negotiate a deal more favourable to UK : i.e. trade but with immigration control. That is just not going to happen.

The negotiations are to decide what to do with all the outstanding payments, EU grants, EU and Brit nationals, how to repeal the EU legislation, what happens to Erasmus students, and all those loose ends.

The Swiss are currently trying to implement a binding referendum to introduce restrictions on immigration, but the EU are saying "no free movement; no free trade". I don't think the EU are going to make exceptions for anyone.

Meanwhile Turkey is going down the pan, and Italy's banks are teetering on the brink of collapse (the Italy problem many times worse than Greece). Euro-skeptic nationalists threaten to do well in elections in Italy, France and elsewhere. The EU project narrowly avoided disaster with Greece, the next upsets may prove terminal.

They made an exception for Lichtenstein on free movement.

Greece isn't over. The money bailing out Deutsche Bank is still being added to Greece's tab, which Greece has no chance of ever repaying
 

Offline apis

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2171 on: July 15, 2016, 11:16:48 pm »
They made an exception for Lichtenstein on free movement.
I didn't know about that but maybe it has something to do with Lichtenstein having a population of less than 37000?
 

Offline MT

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2172 on: July 15, 2016, 11:20:36 pm »
You were flying a Portuguese flag. I see you have changed to another flag of convenience now. I'm obviously too easily confused.
Not just for convenience now, have been flying all kind of flags , can be used to relieve certain folks preconceptions about other nationality's.
Like the ability to only drink beer with zee Germans while proposing English is a superior culture!  ;)

Seams Turkey jets is shooting down Turkey helicopters, while bombing police headquarters! Ah, well Turkey is well known for military coup's.
 

Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2173 on: July 15, 2016, 11:25:31 pm »
They made an exception for Lichtenstein on free movement.
I didn't know about that but maybe it has something to do with Lichtenstein having a population of less than 37000?

What does that matter? It's the principle of the thing isn't it? Everyone should be able to move there - just cram 'em in!
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #2174 on: July 15, 2016, 11:28:06 pm »
... once the UK inevitably ask to join again they will loose all the special deals and rebate that was rather unfair to everyone else.  O0 :-DD

Loose? like "let them loose" or "go off like a loose cannon!" - yeah, I agree the EU will try their best to get us to re-join, desperately firing off honey sweetened deals and letting loose all those deals that are unfair to everyone else. But this lady is not for turning!

As for losing, we haven't lost a war yet. This is just a paper tiger war with EU mandarins.

We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender!  :-DD  ;)
 
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