UK power grid situation!!

[unknownparticle]

Does anyone else watch Grid Watch in the UK?

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Consumption is a hair under 45GW as we speak, just on the orange warning sector for max grid capacity!! 

If it wasn't for wind contribution at almost 10GW it would be a close thing!!

[fourtytwo42]

You may have noticed in the previous week wind made virtually no contribution at all.

Energy policy such as it is has been wrecked by green policies, insufficient non-fickle generating capacity combined with overload by heat pumps & electric cars.

[unknownparticle]

Absolutely! This is the problem with so called renewables, intermittency! Wind and solar on an optimum day can knock out 50% or a little more, but the next day, nothing, or close to it!!  It fluctuates so much that it becomes difficult to deal with unless there is capacity in the system for other sources.  If it wasn't for base load capacity provided by gas and nuclear it would be blackout city!!
Not as if there is actually a climate problem anyway, it's all hyped up nonsense from the green agenda.  Problem is now, it's being used to keep gas and oil retail prices at the elevated prices they have reached, even if the market price falls.
There is so much BS being pitched by MSM and political interests, that have absolutely no basis in scientific fact, and Joe public just believes it, like a religious cult.

[tom66]

The UK grid has been predicted to be under high stress for the last few weeks.  This is not news or surprise to the ESO (National Grid, but soon to be divested.)

Nor is this particularly down to renewable energy, and I can't really understand why this myth persists so much.  The problem is that we have had two nuclear reactors go down for refueling but at the same time a steam leak reported on Heysham 2 NPP, at a time when energy demand is ramping up because of the colder temperatures and events like the football.  The UK grid has more than enough capacity even with nil wind, but we would need to burn a lot more natural gas and maybe some coal.  Demand shedding is also used at times of high loading (usually agreed well in advance with high load customers), as well as frequency balancing via the very expensive Demand Flexibility Service.

Renewable energy being intermittent isn't really a problem if you have grid scale storage & models show that once sufficient storage is available a power outage is not going to occur even in 1-in-1000 year event scenarios.  That requires that the wind power be scaled up to something like 3x the nominal grid capacity and combined with several days worth of storage usually in the form of synthetic natural gas, ammonia or maybe hydrogen.  These are being modelled on the small scale for now.  For smaller countries (micronations mostly) batteries alone would probably be sufficient, though they are unlikely to make much sense for countries the size of the UK except as frequency reserve.

Neither is this grid stress caused by EVs or heat pumps.  You may as well have swallowed a copy of the Daily Mail with that tripe.  EVs represent around 2% of all cars for the UK right now (~650k total).   If every one was plugged in simultaneously, and using a 7kW charger, you might see 4.5GW of additional load - quite significant.  But the reality is these are usually not charged all at once.  If you assume a high end average of 15,000 mi/yr and a low end efficiency of 3mi/kWh then you're adding 5,000kWh of additional load per EV, around 3.25TWh, to a grid that generated 310TWh last year.  It's barely even a blip!  As for heat pumps, in 2020 only 100,000 homes had them.  There are 25 million homes, so this is an even smaller figure than EVs.  Many more homes have plain resistive heating, like large parts of Wales for instance, where over 11% of homes use resistive heating.  This is actually enough of a concern that the UK grid operator does plan for cold weather scenarios in this part of the country, ensuring transmission lines have sufficient capacity being the biggest risk.

[thm_w]

Keep your garbage political takes off this site.
Current wind and solar clearly meet the definition for renewable energy.

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/03/wind-energys-carbon-footprint/
https://www.carbonbrief.org/solar-wind-nuclear-amazingly-low-carbon-footprints/

[Zero999]

We need more nuclear.

Storage is a big problem for renewables and there are currently no solutions for the UK.

Heat pumps aren't much of an issue, if they're firstly just uses to replace resistive heating, as that would result in a net reduction in power draw. It might be more of a problem, if everyone had one though.

EVs aren't a problem now, but the grid needs to be expanded for the time when everyone has them. It's true their batteries could be used as storage, but a lot of people wouldn't like the idea of their car's battery being used as a free grid buffer.

[themadhippy]

wonder how much is being wasted on christmas light trails ?i know of one install that requires a 300A 3 phase supply.

[Zero999]

wonder how much is being wasted on christmas light trails ?i know of one install that requires a 300A 3 phase supply.

When was that?

Modern LED Christmas lights hardly use any power.

[tom66]

wonder how much is being wasted on christmas light trails ?i know of one install that requires a 300A 3 phase supply.

*sniff, sniff*. What?  300A * 230V * sqrt(3) = 117kW?  You know of a Christmas lights install that uses 117,000W?  A typical LED bulb would be under 0.05W, so they have over 2.3 million LEDs?   Over, say, a 45 day "festive season" those lights would consume over 126MWh of electricity, at a cost of around £5m...

   

[eti]

And they think these “EV” pipe dreams are gonna happen 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[TimFox]

wonder how much is being wasted on christmas light trails ?i know of one install that requires a 300A 3 phase supply.

*sniff, sniff*. What?  300A * 230V * sqrt(3) = 117kW?  You know of a Christmas lights install that uses 117,000W?  A typical LED bulb would be under 0.05W, so they have over 2.3 million LEDs?   Over, say, a 45 day "festive season" those lights would consume over 126MWh of electricity, at a cost of around £5m...

   

Old-fashioned full-size Christmas tree incandescent bulbs pulled about 7 W.  They must have used over 16,000 bulbs in that display.  No wonder that they are now hard to find...

[themadhippy]

Modern LED Christmas lights hardly use any power.

they dont,but
 

The magic is back at the National Trust’s Kingston Lacy near Wimborne, Dorset. Over a million twinkling lights and seasonal sounds will fill the air with festive fun. 

[artag]

EVs aren't a problem now, but the grid needs to be expanded for the time when everyone has them. It's true their batteries could be used as storage, but a lot of people wouldn't like the idea of their car's battery being used as a free grid buffer.

On the other hand, quite a lot of people will love the income they get from satisfying the demand pricing. The use of car storage will be far from free.

[eti]

Look, the governments are clueless and inept. Also EVs are greenwash eco bullshit. Even the supposedly most “intelligent” people have become brainwashed and have bought into this idiotic sci-fi daydream.

It ain’t gonna work. We all KNOW they’re a scam - they’re not more economically sound, and I’m not gonna sit here and parrot science and figures to people intelligent enough to do it for themselves. It’s not ABOUT figures and graphs, it’s about personal biases and the middle/upper classes projecting guilt and virtue signalling as they fly around in their Buck Rogers supercharged milk floats 😂 hoping “Scientists will work it out in the end”

What a load of utter #####  bollocks. It’s a daydream and one day you WILL all wake up to it, because reality overrides daydreams.

Do your own research and you’ll soon see it doesn’t add up. I don’t come here to “justify” my views - you don’t need to justify yours either. My point is that they’re a joke which is halfway matured, and the full punchline has yet to be properly delivered. Wait and see - you’ll either laugh and carry on or cry in a tantrum because you blindly invested in a system which is unsustainable.

[KaneTW]

wonder how much is being wasted on christmas light trails ?i know of one install that requires a 300A 3 phase supply.

*sniff, sniff*. What?  300A * 230V * sqrt(3) = 117kW?  You know of a Christmas lights install that uses 117,000W?  A typical LED bulb would be under 0.05W, so they have over 2.3 million LEDs?   Over, say, a 45 day "festive season" those lights would consume over 126MWh of electricity, at a cost of around £5m...

   

300A * 230V * 3 * cos phi actually, so 207kVA apparent power.

[Monkeh]

We all KNOW they’re a scam

Speak for yourself, please. I certainly do not need you telling me what I do and do not know, and while unlike you I don't speak for others, I have strong doubts anyone else here feels differently.

[james_s]

We need more nuclear.

Storage is a big problem for renewables and there are currently no solutions for the UK.

Heat pumps aren't much of an issue, if they're firstly just uses to replace resistive heating, as that would result in a net reduction in power draw. It might be more of a problem, if everyone had one though.

EVs aren't a problem now, but the grid needs to be expanded for the time when everyone has them. It's true their batteries could be used as storage, but a lot of people wouldn't like the idea of their car's battery being used as a free grid buffer.

Is there a significant amount of electric resistance heating in the UK still? It's still common in apartmens in the US and there are still older houses around that have it but at least in this region natural gas is more common and heat pumps are rapidly gaining. Given the much higher cost of energy over there I'd have thought resistance heat was largely a thing of the past.

[eti]

We all KNOW they’re a scam

Speak for yourself, please. I certainly do not need you telling me what I do and do not know, and while unlike you I don't speak for others, I have strong doubts anyone else here feels differently.

As I clarified very firmly, I speak for myself. I’m not “telling” you anything. Be more secure in yourself, you don’t need to justify, defend etc. My views are not yours and vice versa. Don’t lose any sleep over it.

[james_s]

When was that?

Modern LED Christmas lights hardly use any power.

Mine use about 900W for the outdoor lights plus about 260W for the tree and another 80W or so for other misc indoor lights. Most LED Christmas flicker and/or have icky monochromatic colors, I have incandescent C9, C7, C6 and miniature lights that look much nicer IMO. It's well worth the ~$35 extra I spend on electricity.

[NiHaoMike]

The UK should adopt their own version of Ohmconnect, a program that rewards conserving during peak times.

[MK14]

The UK should adopt their own version of Ohmconnect, a program that rewards conserving during peak times.

They have been carrying out trials in the UK, of something vaguely similar, which seem to have had complaints that the payouts, are way, too low, to attract customers.  So I think it is being revised.
Another complaint, is only customers with smart meters, will be able to join the service.

Many links possible, here is one of them:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/04/britains-biggest-suppliers-to-offer-discounts-for-off-peak-electricity-usage

[Monkeh]

We all KNOW they’re a scam

Speak for yourself, please. I certainly do not need you telling me what I do and do not know, and while unlike you I don't speak for others, I have strong doubts anyone else here feels differently.

As I clarified very firmly, I speak for myself. I’m not “telling” you anything. Be more secure in yourself, you don’t need to justify, defend etc. My views are not yours and vice versa. Don’t lose any sleep over it.

The royal we, is it? Or have you already forgotten your own words?

[Jackster]

Is there a significant amount of electric resistance heating in the UK still? It's still common in apartmens in the US and there are still older houses around that have it but at least in this region natural gas is more common and heat pumps are rapidly gaining. Given the much higher cost of energy over there I'd have thought resistance heat was largely a thing of the past.

Gas is common in and around cities as well as built-up areas. But out in the countryside, electricity and oil are used for heating.
 
Sadly, we have very old housing stock in the UK which results in poor insulation and heating systems that run more than they need to.
Government and housing developers don't want to build houses even close to touching passive house spec and most people don't want to pay for it upfront either.

Typical of British culture to not plan/pay ahead and then get future generations to pay for it...



As for the nutjobs in here.
Most people in the UK know what climate change is and understand that humans are the cause of the rapidly increasing temperature changes and bad weather we are having.
But we are all fed up with the political class, corporations, and celebrities talking down to us and making out it is us that are the problem while they all fly in their private jets, live in luxury housing, and can afford to heat and eat their way through winter.
Most of us want green power sources but we know the storage technology is not here yet.
Most of us want green transportation, but not everyone can afford £30k plus cars that have a 5-8 year battery life span.
Most of us want to generate our own power and store it, but we cannot afford £20-30k worth of solar and battery storage.

The issue with green energy at the moment is its cost of it. It is why people on good salaries can buy that sort of stuff. Yea, they are going to act all smug about it. They have something the majority of people don't have access to. So what. They are paying the introductory price that will eventually come down as the technology improves and becomes affordable.
More needs to be done. We are not going to stop oil production tomorrow or the next day. But if we can work towards ending it, and rebuilding our infrastructure so we are not reliant on cartel-controlled energy producers, that is a start.

The UK should adopt their own version of Ohmconnect, a program that rewards conserving during peak times.

We have tariffs that discount and overcharge during offpeak/peak hours.
Ideal for EV charging overnight, but they do overcharge during normal hours. So it is only really worth it if you use a lot during the night for EV or other things like hot water tanks or storage heating.

[eti]

Is there a significant amount of electric resistance heating in the UK still? It's still common in apartmens in the US and there are still older houses around that have it but at least in this region natural gas is more common and heat pumps are rapidly gaining. Given the much higher cost of energy over there I'd have thought resistance heat was largely a thing of the past.

Gas is common in and around cities as well as built-up areas. But out in the countryside, electricity and oil are used for heating.
 
Sadly, we have very old housing stock in the UK which results in poor insulation and heating systems that run more than they need to.
Government and housing developers don't want to build houses even close to touching passive house spec and most people don't want to pay for it upfront either.

Typical of British culture to not plan/pay ahead and then get future generations to pay for it...



As for the nutjobs in here.
Most people in the UK know what climate change is and understand that humans are the cause of the rapidly increasing temperature changes and bad weather we are having.
But we are all fed up with the political class, corporations, and celebrities talking down to us and making out it is us that are the problem while they all fly in their private jets, live in luxury housing, and can afford to heat and eat their way through winter.
Most of us want green power sources but we know the storage technology is not here yet.
Most of us want green transportation, but not everyone can afford £30k plus cars that have a 5-8 year battery life span.
Most of us want to generate our own power and store it, but we cannot afford £20-30k worth of solar and battery storage.

The issue with green energy at the moment is its cost of it. It is why people on good salaries can buy that sort of stuff. Yea, they are going to act all smug about it. They have something the majority of people don't have access to. So what. They are paying the introductory price that will eventually come down as the technology improves and becomes affordable.
More needs to be done. We are not going to stop oil production tomorrow or the next day. But if we can work towards ending it, and rebuilding our infrastructure so we are not reliant on cartel-controlled energy producers, that is a start.

The UK should adopt their own version of Ohmconnect, a program that rewards conserving during peak times.

We have tariffs that discount and overcharge during offpeak/peak hours.
Ideal for EV charging overnight, but they do overcharge during normal hours. So it is only really worth it if you use a lot during the night for EV or other things like hot water tanks or storage heating.

“Most of us want…”

Have you conducted a door to door survey of all 65M+ Brits, to quantify your “most of us”?

[Andy Watson]

“Most of us want…”

Have you conducted a door to door survey of all 65M+ Brits, to quantify your “most of us”?

Anybody who didn't "want" such things would have to be stupid or wilfully ignorant. Take your pick.