UK power grid situation!!

[eti]

“Most of us want…”

Have you conducted a door to door survey of all 65M+ Brits, to quantify your “most of us”?

Anybody who didn't "want" such things would have to be stupid or wilfully ignorant. Take your pick.

Wow. Take care.

[Someone]

Storage is a big problem for renewables and there are currently no solutions for the UK.

Heat pumps aren't much of an issue, if they're firstly just uses to replace resistive heating, as that would result in a net reduction in power draw. It might be more of a problem, if everyone had one though.

EVs aren't a problem now, but the grid needs to be expanded for the time when everyone has them. It's true their batteries could be used as storage, but a lot of people wouldn't like the idea of their car's battery being used as a free grid buffer.

Is there a significant amount of electric resistance heating in the UK still? It's still common in apartmens in the US and there are still older houses around that have it but at least in this region natural gas is more common and heat pumps are rapidly gaining. Given the much higher cost of energy over there I'd have thought resistance heat was largely a thing of the past.

Electric heating is a minority in the UK (share dependent on dwelling type), with electric storage being somewhat blurry (do you include direct "brick" storage and hot water storage?).
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/insights_paper_on_households_with_electric_and_other_non-gas_heating_1.pdf
A salient quote:

We expect to see more renewable electricity generators coming on to the system. Most of these renewables provide intermittent power, meaning they generate electricity when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining. They also tend to be more distributed than traditional generation technologies. These characteristics (alongside other trends such as the electrification of transport and heating) mean that we need to be more flexible with how and when we consume and produce electricity.

So to the usual complainers.... Times are changing, fossil fuels that used to be cheap are no-longer (UK like Australia sold it all off cheap) and that isn't coming back. So demand cheap and always available energy all you like, thats not something that exists any more. Either pay more for availability or accept that cheap energy will be a variable thing.

[themadhippy]

Most of these renewables provide intermittent power, meaning they generate electricity when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining

so something which stores the energy when available would be ideal,like the box  of bricks currently heating this place.thankfully there not lot 20 compliant.

[floobydust]

There are speculators and traders of electricity that really profit from all this. No homeowner here can purchase electricity months in the future, yet the leeches can.

We're getting an arctic blast tonight with temps below -30°C which causes grid demand to go to the max. The UK has a bit smaller one I see.
Electricity pricing can go from typical $0.11/kWh to almost $1.00/kWh just because of a "shortage". How much the shortfall is, it can take one power plant to trip and go offline, a loss of say 500MW to cause a crisis. Remember Enron did this on purpose.
Grid contingency is always pretty small, there is never that much excess generation available to handle bad weather.

I think governments need to punt the leeches - the traders, speculators who gouge consumers for a living.

[themadhippy]

I think governments need to punt the leeches - the traders, speculators who gouge consumers for a living.

no chance,it was the goverbent who flogged the  state owned power company off to there mates  highest bidder  here in the uk.and that moneys long gone to pay the same mp's second home energy bill

[Someone]

Most of these renewables provide intermittent power, meaning they generate electricity when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining

so something which stores the energy when available would be ideal,like the box  of bricks currently heating this place.thankfully there not lot 20 compliant.

Sure sounds like you're one of the usual complainers that needs batting down.... being that lot 20 does not change existing installs, restricts the market for new installs, and there are new storage heaters on the market with LOT20 compliance.

So, still wanting to dream of the past?

[eti]

Most of these renewables provide intermittent power, meaning they generate electricity when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining

so something which stores the energy when available would be ideal,like the box  of bricks currently heating this place.thankfully there not lot 20 compliant.

Sure sounds like you're one of the usual complainers that needs batting down.... being that lot 20 does not change existing installs, restricts the market for new installs, and there are new storage heaters on the market with LOT20 compliance.

So, still wanting to dream of the past?

I wonder how supercilious and condescending you’d be if you met them in person and they were 6’9” and built like a Russian wrestler?

Internet bravado doesn’t work IRL. Being a man includes not talking down to people.

[AVGresponding]

Internet bravado doesn’t work IRL. Being a man includes not talking down to people.

Then why do you do it all the time?

[tom66]

We need more nuclear.

Storage is a big problem for renewables and there are currently no solutions for the UK.

Heat pumps aren't much of an issue, if they're firstly just uses to replace resistive heating, as that would result in a net reduction in power draw. It might be more of a problem, if everyone had one though.

EVs aren't a problem now, but the grid needs to be expanded for the time when everyone has them. It's true their batteries could be used as storage, but a lot of people wouldn't like the idea of their car's battery being used as a free grid buffer.

Is there a significant amount of electric resistance heating in the UK still? It's still common in apartmens in the US and there are still older houses around that have it but at least in this region natural gas is more common and heat pumps are rapidly gaining. Given the much higher cost of energy over there I'd have thought resistance heat was largely a thing of the past.

Around 7% of all properties are electric resistive heated, but in some areas it's 25%, like the Welsh countryside and Scottish highlands.  Parts are rural enough that delivery of oil on a truck to homes is expensive, and there's no piped gas, so electric heating is all you have left.  Some others get heated by tanks of propane which get delivered and exchanged before the winter season.

[richard.cs]

The problem is that we have had two nuclear reactors go down for refueling but at the same time a steam leak reported on Heysham 2 NPP, at a time when energy demand is ramping up because of the colder temperatures and events like the football.

And the permanent shutdown of more AGRs (Hunterston B and Hinkley Point B) this year, which could have been extended 18 months but UKGov declined to fund the safety work. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/01/hinkley-point-b-nuclear-plant-could-be-spared-imminent-closure

[Black Phoenix]

Most of these renewables provide intermittent power, meaning they generate electricity when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining

so something which stores the energy when available would be ideal,like the box  of bricks currently heating this place.thankfully there not lot 20 compliant.

Sure sounds like you're one of the usual complainers that needs batting down.... being that lot 20 does not change existing installs, restricts the market for new installs, and there are new storage heaters on the market with LOT20 compliance.

So, still wanting to dream of the past?

I wonder how supercilious and condescending you’d be if you met them in person and they were 6’9” and built like a Russian wrestler?

Internet bravado doesn’t work IRL. Being a man includes not talking down to people.

Rich that coming from you...

[jonpaul]

bonjour à tous 

Similar situation in EU, USA, elsewhere.

electric generation, transmission and distribution systems were designed and installed decades or even a century ago.

The radical changes in generation and load over space and time, require total review and redesign of the sources, grid, controllers and load management.

Nowadays the utilities are controlled by laws, regulatory compliance and politicians.

Most of the experienced power and nuclear engineers are long retired.

Finally the old line manufacturers, GE, Westinghouse, Brown Boveri, ABB are fully booked years out or have off-shored manufacture to China.

Thus the issues are long, deep and very wide ranging.

Suggest a natural gas/ propane permanent install backup generator for 25 kva or less eg your house or small firms
Just the ramblings of an old retired EE, 1968

Bon courage 


Jon

[unknownparticle]

Well stuff all this BS climate change crisis nonsense, I'll carry on installing my Lister CS Startomatic diesel generator as a CHP unit running on waste engine oil, which will make me energy independent as long as I can scrounge 500 to a 1000 gallons of oil per annum.

[themadhippy]

running on waste engine oil, which will make me energy independent as long as I can scrounge 500 to a 1000 gallons of oil per annum.

Scrounge? surley you'll be charging garages to remove there waste oil for them,after all they can no longer burn it to heat the garage so the only option is to pay for its safe removal and disposal

[Jackster]

running on waste engine oil, which will make me energy independent as long as I can scrounge 500 to a 1000 gallons of oil per annum.

Scrounge? surley you'll be charging garages to remove there waste oil for them,after all they can no longer burn it to heat the garage so the only option is to pay for its safe removal and disposal

Burning other people's waste oil is illegal without a license in England. 
Government can do it though..

[tom66]

When I worked in Halifax, W.Yorks, a car garage opposite our office would frequently burn off their waste oil. It would cover the entire area in a thick black smoke and made the air unpleasant to breathe.  I would be glad if that practice were to be banned, maybe it should be allowed if it can be done cleanly, but it is probably better to take the waste oil and recycle it into something else.

[AVGresponding]

Is there a significant amount of electric resistance heating in the UK still? It's still common in apartmens in the US and there are still older houses around that have it but at least in this region natural gas is more common and heat pumps are rapidly gaining. Given the much higher cost of energy over there I'd have thought resistance heat was largely a thing of the past.

Gas is common in and around cities as well as built-up areas. But out in the countryside, electricity and oil are used for heating.\

Yes I've heard first hand from a UK immigrant on how the heatwave is treating the UK with everyone not having air conditioners.

Sad tale.

That was in the summer, it's now winter. Sad how?

[james_s]

When I worked in Halifax, W.Yorks, a car garage opposite our office would frequently burn off their waste oil. It would cover the entire area in a thick black smoke and made the air unpleasant to breathe.  I would be glad if that practice were to be banned, maybe it should be allowed if it can be done cleanly, but it is probably better to take the waste oil and recycle it into something else.

It can be done cleanly, not as clean as burning natural gas but it shouldn't be belching out black smoke.

[Zero999]

When was that?

Modern LED Christmas lights hardly use any power.

Mine use about 900W for the outdoor lights plus about 260W for the tree and another 80W or so for other misc indoor lights. Most LED Christmas flicker and/or have icky monochromatic colors, I have incandescent C9, C7, C6 and miniature lights that look much nicer IMO. It's well worth the ~$35 extra I spend on electricity.

The Christmas lights you've seen are complete junk. I have a set which is run off 24VDC, or high frequency 24VAC PWM rather and are flicker free. They hare saturated colours, but that's what I like. It is possible to get pastel phosphor converted LEDs, which some people prefer.

[james_s]

The Christmas lights you've seen are complete junk. I have a set which is run off 24VDC, or high frequency 24VAC PWM rather and are flicker free. They hare saturated colours, but that's what I like. It is possible to get pastel phosphor converted LEDs, which some people prefer.

I've tried everything I can find, I'm a lighting enthusiast, I even tried some fancy high end "TruTone" C7 bulbs, the colors look great but like most LED holiday lighting they flicker. I've considered trying to run them off of filtered DC but they're expensive enough that it's cheaper to just stick with incandescent. If you like the saturated LED colors that's great, personally I think they're icky, the green is always that gross lime green, the red is more orange than a true deep blood red, the blue is the same saturated blue of almost all blue LEDs, my eyes can't focus it properly and it looks blurry. I've looked at everything available and so far found nothing acceptable. For whatever reason, Christmas lights that use a transformer or power supply are not a thing here, the LED lights are universally series strings powered directly from the mains, or individual 120V bulbs wired in parallel.

[TimFox]

Interesting (about Christmas LED flicker).
With cheap LED strings from Home Depot (one multi-colored and one white), operating from 60 Hz, I do not perceive any noticeable flicker.
On the white string (pre-installed on a fake tree), I do see a spatial effect due to the small luminous surface inside a glass envelope, but it is time-stationary.

[tom66]

The last set of Xmas lights I bought came with an SMPS that outputs very smooth 24VDC and even on the PWM setting the flicker is barely noticeable.  (I can generally see flicker up to a few hundred Hz by scanning my eyes across something, but much more than that is imperceptible.)

I would guess a DC SMPS is probably cheaper than an AC transformer nowadays, plus it automatically makes the lights safe for outdoor usage (though in my experience, unless you get higher quality ones, they won't last long due to corrosion at the base of the LEDs.)

[james_s]

Interesting (about Christmas LED flicker).
With cheap LED strings from Home Depot (one multi-colored and one white), operating from 60 Hz, I do not perceive any noticeable flicker.
On the white string (pre-installed on a fake tree), I do see a spatial effect due to the small luminous surface inside a glass envelope, but it is time-stationary.

My mom has some LED lights on a tree outside, she says she can't see the flicker, but it's very obvious to me. I took a picture with my phone while rapidly panning the phone and it clearly showed the trail of dots effect. I have always been sensitive to flicker, especially in my peripheral vision and even more so when I'm tired. Even when it's high enough frequency that it is not readily visible when starting at it, flicker still shows up when I rapidly scan my eyes past something. I'm hopeful that LED lights with proper power supplies will become common at some point, and ideally some different colors, I really don't like the lime green, saturated blue and orangish red. 

[james_s]

I would guess a DC SMPS is probably cheaper than an AC transformer nowadays, plus it automatically makes the lights safe for outdoor usage (though in my experience, unless you get higher quality ones, they won't last long due to corrosion at the base of the LEDs.)

It probably is, but transformer powered Christmas lights were never a thing here, the first time I ever saw such an arrangement was when I met a friend in the UK that shares my interest in lighting. Ours are mostly just series strings of LEDs that are half wave self rectifying, some try to mitigate the flicker by having the LEDs staggered across two wires in opposite directions. On top of their other deficiencies, my experience is they don't even last as long as incandescent. Probably because they're run hard to make them bright enough and they have no protection from spikes. 

[tom66]

I don't think I've seen a purely mains powered set of LED fairy lights in a long time - and possibly never.  Incandescent ones were nearly exclusively mains powered, even the outdoor ones usually using ruggedised cables and bulbs.  I wonder if there was a regulation prohibiting them when they were introduced or at least once they became popular, grandfathering in the old design which remained for sale up until a few years ago.  Not sure how it varied across the world, but the old incandescent sets in the UK used things like "fuse bulbs" (designed to blow at a lower voltage once too many 'self-shorting' filament bulbs had failed) and were notorious for leading to house fires especially on real trees; the fire brigades around here asking people to switch off their lights at night & watch pets and children around them.

I have fond (and not so fond) memories of finding the dead bulbs in a set with my father.  He had a little tester which contained a 9V PP3 battery, which was enough to light up the bulb (I think they were 12V/1W rated, so a common arrangement was 20-24 bulbs in series plus one fuse bulb for each 'run'.)  In earlier days the flasher function was provided by another thermal bulb, like older car indicators, but it went electronic before the switch to LEDs, I would guess using triac dimmers.

Nowadays, I am sure that 24V/3W SMPS costs around a dollar to make, so likely much cheaper than better insulation etc.