UK power grid situation!!

[james_s]

It's probably largely to do with the fact that the voltage there is double what it is here. Starting I think sometime in the 80s miniature lights required crimped terminals in the sockets, heavier wires and fused plugs. I have some from the 70s that have very thin wires which is nice because they're much lighter and more flexible, but they are fragile and the wires are only wrapped around the metal plates pressed into the sockets and the plugs are not fused. Throughout the incandescent era there were C7 and C9 size 120V bulbs in parallel or miniature strings with groups of 2.5, 3.5, 6 or 12V bulbs in series powered directly from 120V. I've never seen an incandescent set with a transformer in this part of the world. 

[TimFox]

I grew up with the 120 V (actually, this was many years ago at 110 or 117 V) bulbs in parallel, but 40 years ago it was the series-parallel combination of lower-voltage smaller incandescent bulbs connected to 120 V, 60 Hz.  The smaller bulbs were a pain to replace, if I remember right.  Recently, my Christmas bulbs are LEDs with a small adapter supplied by the manufacturer.
The colored strings are a bit too saturated for my taste, but I hide them in the greenery.

[RJSV]

   james_s, regarding comments on LED flicker:
   Scope showing approx. 5 Usec. repeat periods, or about 233 khz, if the LED is using a buck converter (oscillator with inductor coil to boost voltage).
   I get the 'dots' lingering visual effects, especially in side vision.  But, the timing seems wrong, when reconciled with speed of (head) movement...the oscillator rate seems more like 3khz or something, a puzzle.
   Do you have any info, on Manufacturer, model ?

[themadhippy]

Sure sounds like you're one of the usual complainers that needs batting down.... being that lot 20 does not change existing installs, restricts the market for new installs, and there are new storage heaters on the market with LOT20 compliance.

So, still wanting to dream of the past?

I'm fully aware what lot 20 is and its scope,I'm also aware ,from real life figures ,not reading random numbers in  a brochure that a like for like lot 20 compliment heater will actual consume MORE energy than these ancient heaters

[Someone]

Most of these renewables provide intermittent power, meaning they generate electricity when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining

so something which stores the energy when available would be ideal,like the box  of bricks currently heating this place.thankfully there not lot 20 compliant.

Sure sounds like you're one of the usual complainers that needs batting down.... being that lot 20 does not change existing installs, restricts the market for new installs, and there are new storage heaters on the market with LOT20 compliance.

So, still wanting to dream of the past?

I'm fully aware what lot 20 is and its scope,I'm also aware ,from real life figures ,not reading random numbers in  a brochure that a like for like lot 20 compliment heater will actual consume MORE energy than these ancient heaters

Talking about resistive heating (off peak electricity heating into bricks), how can consuming more power result in less heating ? ? ? all the energy ends up as heat with almost perfect unity.

or more accurately if you come back and say that there is no impediment to buying another storage heater, then what on earth were you saying originally (quoted above) ? What is better about the old heaters that you cannot buy? Resistive heating dump into a brick is pretty much impossible to screw up.

[tom66]

Talking about resistive heating (off peak electricity heating into bricks), how can consuming more power result in less heating ? ? ? all the energy ends up as heat with almost perfect unity.

or more accurately if you come back and say that there is no impediment to buying another storage heater, then what on earth were you saying originally (quoted above) ? What is better about the old heaters that you cannot buy? Resistive heating dump into a brick is pretty much impossible to screw up.

Just a typical conspiracy theorist, has to hate something new that the EU/government introduced because that's automatically wrong. 

Pay them no mind. 

[mikerj]

Renewable energy being intermittent isn't really a problem if you have grid scale storage

But we don't...

[tom66]

But we don't...

Good news, we also don't have a grid that's entirely dependent upon renewable energy either.

[themadhippy]

Just a typical conspiracy theorist, has to hate something new that the EU/government introduced because that's automatically wrong. 

Or maybe somebody who has spent time testing a site were tenants complained about  an increase in electricity use after there flats were rewired and the old heaters changed for new.
For a start there not a direct replacement as they require a permanent supply along with the existing timed supply.The older heaters didn't have a constant power draw ,just in case you want to see the room temperature by an app on your phone,consuming several watts  even thought the heater isn't doing anything apart from showing the time and temperature on its display,from memory it was about 1kw/h every 2 weeks. On the particular model was a "safety feature" which ,if the temperature fell below a non  adjustable level,would turn on the heater,both pointless as it also had a  frost stat option,and  a bit of surprise come bill time,Turning off the permanent supply to get rid of these "features" also turns off the economy 7

[tom66]

None of those functions are required by Lot20 though, it's just about including a mandatory timer.  If the manufacturer of the heater puts a crap timer and extra frost-stat in then... well, don't use that particular model!  That's nothing to do with the EU, and I bet the residents would be far more upset by leaving the heater on for longer than a few watts in a digital controller.  A simple electronic timer meets the requirements of Lot20, no requirement exists for the frost stat etc.

[themadhippy]

If the manufacturer of the heater puts a crap timer and extra frost-stat in then... well, don't use that particular model!

good luck finding one

A simple electronic timer meets the requirements of Lot20, no requirement exists for the frost stat etc

Why does a night storage heater,connected to an economy 7 supply need a built in timer?

[Someone]

None of those functions are required by Lot20 though, it's just about including a mandatory timer.  If the manufacturer of the heater puts a crap timer and extra frost-stat in then... well, don't use that particular model!  That's nothing to do with the EU, and I bet the residents would be far more upset by leaving the heater on for longer than a few watts in a digital controller.  A simple electronic timer meets the requirements of Lot20, no requirement exists for the frost stat etc.

Energy saved in having a temperature setback during the sleeping/away hours would easily swamp the couple of watts from standby & fan.

[Kasper]

How much the shortfall is, it can take one power plant to trip and go offline, a loss of say 500MW to cause a crisis. Remember Enron did this on purpose.
Grid contingency is always pretty small, there is never that much excess generation available to handle bad weather.

This is one of the downsides of large power plants that often seems to get ignored.  Large power plants focus an essential system for a large area into a series of places.

1 problem in the distrubition network or the plant causes a big problem for a lot of people. 

Nice thing about renewables is small, self reliant systems can be spread out such that 1 problem in 1 small area only impacts that small area.

[Mark]

Renewable energy being intermittent isn't really a problem if you have grid scale storage

But we don't...

it's a start:

November 25, 2022
Europe's biggest battery storage system goes online four months early
https://www.techspot.com/news/96773-europe-biggest-battery-storage-system-goes-online-four.html

Operators have flipped the switch on Europe's largest battery energy storage system, bringing online a system capable of storing enough electricity to power 300,000 homes for up to two hours.
The facility, located in Cottingham, East Yorkshire, UK. 

[tggzzz]

it's a start:
...
Operators have flipped the switch on Europe's largest battery energy storage system, bringing online a system capable of storing enough electricity to power 300,000 homes for up to two hours.
The facility, located in Cottingham, East Yorkshire, UK.

Unfortunately that cannot be remotely sufficient in the current situation.

Firstly, it presumes that the battery can be recharged after the 2 hours. If there is a gas shortage then the cuts will be continuous (in a predefined rota) until there is sufficient excess power.

Secondly, the power cuts rota starts at 3 hour cuts per day and, as shortages get worse, progresses to 6, 9, 12, 18, 21 and 24 hour cuts.
FFI see https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electricity-supply-emergency-code

As far as I can see, the two practical ways of storing grid scale energy for a few days are hydroelectric (pumped or conventional) and gas. Unfortunately the UK geography is against hydro, and the UK gas storage facilities were allowed to decay by Centrica because they were uneconomic. Shortsighted and not prevented by the government (presumably based on the dogma that industry and the market knows best).

The person/company that develops practical long-term grid-scale storage of electricity will become as rich as Croesus.

[mfro]

Does anyone else watch Grid Watch in the UK?

I assume there's something wrong with that display. It claims to use ELEXON data, but ELEXON's website (and API) https://www.bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=actgenration/actualaggregated doesn't provide any since a few days.

No idea what data is displayed then, actually. Any discussion based on the Grid Watch display should probably be taken with a grain of salt unless the author of that site has found another secret source of data.

[NiHaoMike]

How about give discounts to customers who get devices installed to limit heating to 60-65F during peak times?

[themadhippy]

the UK gas storage facilities were allowed to decay by Centrica because they were uneconomic. Shortsighted and not prevented by the government (presumably based on the dogma that industry and the market knows best)..

or worried spending money to bring them up to standard would cause the dividend on there shares to  drop

[tggzzz]

Does anyone else watch Grid Watch in the UK?

I assume there's something wrong with that display. It claims to use ELEXON data, but ELEXON's website (and API) https://www.bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=actgenration/actualaggregated doesn't provide any since a few days.

No idea what data is displayed then, actually. Any discussion based on the Grid Watch display should probably be taken with a grain of salt unless the author of that site has found another secret source of data.

https://www.bmreports.com/bmrs/?q=eds/main seems to be working

[tggzzz]

the UK gas storage facilities were allowed to decay by Centrica because they were uneconomic. Shortsighted and not prevented by the government (presumably based on the dogma that industry and the market knows best)..

or worried spending money to bring them up to standard would cause the dividend on there shares to  drop

I didn't specify whether for the individual or the company

[james_s]

How about give discounts to customers who get devices installed to limit heating to 60-65F during peak times?

How do you enforce that? It's trivial to bypass a thermostat to turn on the heating, and if you don't want to mess with that, just plug in a space heater.

[Monkeh]

How about give discounts to customers who get devices installed to limit heating to 60-65F during peak times?

How do you enforce that? It's trivial to bypass a thermostat to turn on the heating, and if you don't want to mess with that, just plug in a space heater.

Smart meters.

Also, most people are not smart enough for 'trivial'.

[Kasper]

How about give discounts to customers who get devices installed to limit heating to 60-65F during peak times?

How do you enforce that? It's trivial to bypass a thermostat to turn on the heating, and if you don't want to mess with that, just plug in a space heater.

Smart meters.

Also, most people are not smart enough for 'trivial'.

What if someone likes leaving the windows open but keeps the thermostat at 18°C?  Should they get a discount?  What if most the house is 16°C but your office is 20°C, does that qualify?  What about people that upgrade their insulation?

Pay per use billing seems a lot easier and more fair.  Use less energy, get a lower energy bill. 

[Kasper]

Missed the part about peak times but again, billing schemes could drive that with much less bureaucracy and more fairness.

[themadhippy]

The uk has a new method of cutting down on grid demand,pricing the poor out of the market.