EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: paulca on June 09, 2021, 10:42:19 am
-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57407233 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57407233)
Now, correct me if I am wrong, a halogen bulb is only inefficient if the heat output is waste. In many applications you do indeed want the heat from the bulb.
I'm going to hope that this will mean that supermarkets will not stock halogen alternatives in their light bulb shelf, but products designed to use halogen or incandescent bulbs for specific reasons .... you should still be able to buy new bulbs?
Also they want to ban fluorescents too. I don't see that happening.
-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57407233 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57407233)
Now, correct me if I am wrong, a halogen bulb is only inefficient if the heat output is waste. In many applications you do indeed want the heat from the bulb.
I'm going to hope that this will mean that supermarkets will not stock halogen alternatives in their light bulb shelf, but products designed to use halogen or incandescent bulbs for specific reasons .... you should still be able to buy new bulbs?
Also they want to ban fluorescents too. I don't see that happening.
In what applications do you want the heat from the bulb? A lava lamp?
When it's cold, it's better to use a heat pump to warm your house, rather than resistive heating in light bulbs.
I hope they clamp down on some of the crappy LED lamps which don't last as long, as they should.
-
There are many use cases for where you need light and mild heat or just mild, sub 100W of heat.
Pet enclosures for reptiles.
Some aquatics / aquariums.
Some hydroponics.
Some horticulture.
Chemistry such as brewing/fermenting things.
Halogen cookers.
Preheating circuit boards for soldering.
Sure some of those could be replaced with a £4000 HVAC system!
Also. HVAC systems are not the be all and end all of home heating systems. They only really work in modern homes built in the last few decades and in places where summer is hot enough for the air con function to be needed.
On environmental terms, while an HVAC unit might claim a GOP of 4 or 5, they very often don't run anywhere near that, especially in colder climes in winter. They have to hit a GOP of 3 to be as efficient as a direct heat from burning the fossil fuel in the home instead of the power plant.
-
There are many applications where the heat is what you need but this ban targets the lighting applications I think. So, this won't affect the niche, special purpose applications directly. Indirectly, incandescent/halogen/IR bulbs are going to be less popular so expect their retail price to raise.
It is also true that incandescent type bulbs are 100% efficient when you consider that no energy is wasted but instead emitted by radiation, convection and transmission. In residential applications when you heat a house anyway then this works just like a 98% efficient heater with 2% efficient light source in one package. Leds go closer to 90%/10% proportions. So at any given light flux required, you can use 2%/10% = 20% of energy and emit 20% of 90%/98% = 18.4% of heat of incandescent. Of course if this is illuminating solar freakin roadways application in the middle of the winter and you melt snow with resistive heater anyway then this saving does not make any sense.
-
I'm sure they just mean ordinary Halogen lamps , the lower energy replacements ordinary filament lamps. You can still legally buy special purpose filament lamps (eg.Oven ones).
Halogen cookers don't count as lamps, they're heating elements - as much IR as possible. Likewise industrial IR heaters.
It's about time they got rid of Halogen downlighters anyway, they consume vast amounts of power for very little overall room brightness and older, non intumescent sealed ones are a fire risk in ceiling cavities.
-
It's about time they got rid of Halogen downlighters anyway, they consume vast amounts of power for very little overall room brightness and older, non intumescent sealed ones are a fire risk in ceiling cavities.
I had an uplighter in my last place which had a double height ceiling for one half of the apartment. It was only when I came to change the bulb in it that I discovered it was a 400W 3 inch floodlight bulb! Thankfully I only ever turned it on at about 5% brightness.
-
I guess we're rapidly approaching the point in time where incandescents have been gone long enough and halogens are on their way out that anybody wanting to build a dim bulb tester for their workbench is going to have to search around for NOS lightbulbs.
-
There are many use cases for where you need light and mild heat or just mild, sub 100W of heat.
Pet enclosures for reptiles.
Some aquatics / aquariums.
Some hydroponics.
Some horticulture.
Chemistry such as brewing/fermenting things.
For those relatively low temperature use cases below 100W, a Peltier makes a pretty good heater, getting especially good COP if the temperature needed is not that much above room temperature.
Halogen is not really what you want for heating since the point is to get more light for the same power consumption. A heat lamp would use a thicker filament running at a lower than usual temperature in an argon or vacuum bulb.
-
I'm sure incandescent bulbs will be available for a long time still... then they'll start to become valuable, and "harvested" older ones will start to appear on eBay...
-
In what applications do you want the heat from the bulb? A lava lamp?
There are several common uses of halogen lamps, that are ONLY trying to produce heat. If they simply ban halogen lamps, will they crush those applications. e.g. halogen ovens and hobs, infra red therapy lamps, and food warmers at self service counters.
-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57407233 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57407233)
Now, correct me if I am wrong, a halogen bulb is only inefficient if the heat output is waste. In many applications you do indeed want the heat from the bulb.
I'm going to hope that this will mean that supermarkets will not stock halogen alternatives in their light bulb shelf, but products designed to use halogen or incandescent bulbs for specific reasons .... you should still be able to buy new bulbs?
Also they want to ban fluorescents too. I don't see that happening.
Because it's 1% of the applications?
Yes, probably halogen will disappear from the supermarket, and you can still buy it in pet shop. Or you might need to buy a second IR lamp.
-
Also 12V bulbs? That would create a lot of e-junk because all "halogen transformers" (actually crude SMPSUs) would need to be replaced too. They aren't suited for 12V LED bulbs.
-
I'm sure incandescent bulbs will be available for a long time still...
Theirs a nice little loop hole in the legislation so good ole incandescent lamps can still be found by using the magic phrases "rough service"
One thing they have also mumbled about,but doesn't seem to be widely reported is the banning of light fittings with non replaceable lamps,that's going to be interesting considering the uk building regs for meeting energy efficiency either require non replaceable lamps or use of a lamp base that's incompatible with non energy efficient lamps,are we going to see a sudden increase of incompatibility between manufacturers?
-
There are many use cases for where you need light and mild heat or just mild, sub 100W of heat.
Pet enclosures for reptiles.
Some aquatics / aquariums.
Some hydroponics.
Some horticulture.
Chemistry such as brewing/fermenting things.
Halogen cookers.
Preheating circuit boards for soldering.
Sure some of those could be replaced with a £4000 HVAC system!
Also. HVAC systems are not the be all and end all of home heating systems. They only really work in modern homes built in the last few decades and in places where summer is hot enough for the air con function to be needed.
On environmental terms, while an HVAC unit might claim a GOP of 4 or 5, they very often don't run anywhere near that, especially in colder climes in winter. They have to hit a GOP of 3 to be as efficient as a direct heat from burning the fossil fuel in the home instead of the power plant.
Read the article again. It talks about halogen light bulbs, not heat lamps, which won't be banned.
Also 12V bulbs? That would create a lot of e-junk because all "halogen transformers" (actually crude SMPSUs) would need to be replaced too. They aren't suited for 12V LED bulbs.
There are plenty of 12V LED retrofit lamps, specifically designed to work with electronic transformers. I've installed them in my parents' bathroom and they work perfectly.
Here's an application note by Maxim about it.
https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/5372/ (https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/5372/)
-
Very annoying - I have a fan with in built lights and the controller for it does not work with LEDs in, even if they claim they are dimmable
-
Every year they "Attempt to Ban" halogen and also incandescent bulbs but yet I can always find them for sale.
I've got a Lutron lighting system that will only play nicely with certain dimmable LED bulbs and I have no idea if they will work or not without buying them and trying them. I really do not want to rip that system out as it works so well.
Why is it 90% of LED bulbs are "Warm" colour temperature, they are a lot warmer than a halogen or traditional incandescent bulbs and look disgusting IMHO. Not to mention the CRI on the box being complete nonsense.
I bought some Philips 4000K LED bulbs a while back and have been really impressed but they seem to be discontinued sadly. They have a really high CRI and are a decent replacement.
-
I'm sure incandescent bulbs will be available for a long time still...
Theirs a nice little loop hole in the legislation so good ole incandescent lamps can still be found by using the magic phrases "rough service"
One thing they have also mumbled about,but doesn't seem to be widely reported is the banning of light fittings with non replaceable lamps,that's going to be interesting considering the uk building regs for meeting energy efficiency either require non replaceable lamps or use of a lamp base that's incompatible with non energy efficient lamps,are we going to see a sudden increase of incompatibility between manufacturers?
The ironic thing about that is "rough service" applications like the work light I use while working on cars are one of the first things I switched to LED. Even incandescent lamps marketed as rough service are nowhere near as tough as an LED bulb.
Personally I dislike bans, I would rather see a tax on less efficient sources used to fund development of more efficient sources. Just gently nudge people toward higher efficiency while greasing the path.
-
Why is it 90% of LED bulbs are "Warm" colour temperature, they are a lot warmer than a halogen or traditional incandescent bulbs and look disgusting IMHO. Not to mention the CRI on the box being complete nonsense.
Because standard incandescent lamps are 2700k and that is what most people are used to so most LED bulbs are also 2700k. A major goal in developing the bulbs in the first place was to make them look as much like what they were trying to replace as possible so ordinary people would buy them.
Personally I've started using quite a few tuneable CCT smart bulbs. I don't really care about the overall "smart" features but I love being able to dial in the color temperature. The Philips Hue white ambiance series are less than half the price of the full RGB bulbs and offer a very nice range from about 2200k to 6500k.
-
Why is it 90% of LED bulbs are "Warm" colour temperature, they are a lot warmer than a halogen or traditional incandescent bulbs and look disgusting IMHO.
Where we live most shops have bigger stocks of daylight bulbs than warm white ones. Whether that is because they sell more daylight ones, or because the warm ones sell out fastest I don't know.
-
I agree that the so-called "warm white" looks horrible. The last time I looked best I could find was 3000k but that's only a minimal improvement. Today I looked on Amazon and there are plenty of 4000k available. You can even get CRI 90+ (so they say). I'm probably going to order some tonight.
-
The "Warm" Led bulbs seem to be nowhere near the kelvin of the incandescent bulbs, they are a lot warmer, certainly in the UK and for the past few years most of our bulbs switched to halogen which were around 3000K or more. These "Warm" bulbs just make everything look dull and tobacco stained, not to mention poor CRI.
Why is it 90% of LED bulbs are "Warm" colour temperature, they are a lot warmer than a halogen or traditional incandescent bulbs and look disgusting IMHO. Not to mention the CRI on the box being complete nonsense.
Because standard incandescent lamps are 2700k and that is what most people are used to so most LED bulbs are also 2700k. A major goal in developing the bulbs in the first place was to make them look as much like what they were trying to replace as possible so ordinary people would buy them.
Personally I've started using quite a few tuneable CCT smart bulbs. I don't really care about the overall "smart" features but I love being able to dial in the color temperature. The Philips Hue white ambiance series are less than half the price of the full RGB bulbs and offer a very nice range from about 2200k to 6500k.
-
I like dimmed lights in the evening, kind of glowing campfire kind of effect. Hard to do well with LEDs...
-
Yeah, I do prefer the warm white for general living area use and at night. When I said they looked horrible I mostly was thinking for use in work areas. On the other hand, the so called "daylight" (5000k+) to me, is far too blue to use anywhere. Maybe it has something to do with CRI.
-
The "Warm" Led bulbs seem to be nowhere near the kelvin of the incandescent bulbs, they are a lot warmer, certainly in the UK and for the past few years most of our bulbs switched to halogen which were around 3000K or more. These "Warm" bulbs just make everything look dull and tobacco stained, not to mention poor CRI.
Most of the ones I have look pretty close to incandescent. Halogen replacements for standard bulbs have been available but they've always been relatively expensive so they never really caught on here. The better LED bulbs typically have better color, the cheap ones often look a bit crappy. In a lot of cases I think the CRI has more to do with how good it looks than the CCT.
-
I like dimmed lights in the evening, kind of glowing campfire kind of effect. Hard to do well with LEDs...
The Philips Hue white ambiance lamps do a pretty good job of it, going all the way down to 2200k. Philips also offers their "Warm Glow" series which are non-adjustable but get warmer as they dim. Not quite as nice as incandescent but passable for most of my applications.
-
In what applications do you want the heat from the bulb? A lava lamp?
Yes.
-
I like dimmed lights in the evening, kind of glowing campfire kind of effect. Hard to do well with LEDs...
Large numbers of dimmable LED bulbs do an excellent campfire simulation by flickering in a very unstable way as you turn the brightness down.
-
I like dimmed lights in the evening, kind of glowing campfire kind of effect. Hard to do well with LEDs...
Large numbers of dimmable LED bulbs do an excellent campfire simulation by flickering in a very unstable way as you turn the brightness down.
Flickering is not necessarily what we're after in the living room application, though. We are after the "red shift" as the filament runs cooler...
Not to mention the long bulb life... probably rivaling LEDs?
-
I'm pretty sure that was a joke, flicker is obviously not desirable. I've found that trailing-edge dimmers work well to dim a lot of otherwise finicky LED bulbs.
Yes if you dim an incandescent lamp it can last many, many thousands of hours. As has been discussed before though, you pay for that extended life in energy costs. When an incandescent lamp is dimmed down to maybe 5% of full lumens it will still consume something like 50% of rated power. With LED the opposite is true, dim it down and it produces more lumens per watt.
-
suprise suprise the government managed to get things slightly wrong with there press release.More sensible information https://www.thelia.org.uk/news/569044/LIAs-response-to-the-Government-Press-release-on-new-lighting-regulations.htm (https://www.thelia.org.uk/news/569044/LIAs-response-to-the-Government-Press-release-on-new-lighting-regulations.htm)
-
suprise suprise the government managed to get things slightly wrong with there press release.More sensible information https://www.thelia.org.uk/news/569044/LIAs-response-to-the-Government-Press-release-on-new-lighting-regulations.htm (https://www.thelia.org.uk/news/569044/LIAs-response-to-the-Government-Press-release-on-new-lighting-regulations.htm)
I guess "Linear Halogen R7s lamps over 2,700 lumens" is specifically worded to continue permitting the sale of R7s lamps for food warmers and therapy lamps.
-
I would like to see their list of exemptions. "Mains voltage Halogen capsules with G9 cap" - that'd be my oven. There is no alternative to a halogen in there.
-
I would like to see their list of exemptions. "Mains voltage Halogen capsules with G9 cap" - that'd be my oven. There is no alternative to a halogen in there.
Oven lamps need to be special high temperature versions of a G9 lamp. Hopefully the full version of the new regulations allows for these. I think their full base type may actually have a suffix after the G9, so they might be in the clear based on that.
-
I would like to see their list of exemptions. "Mains voltage Halogen capsules with G9 cap" - that'd be my oven. There is no alternative to a halogen in there.
Oven lamps need to be special high temperature versions of a G9 lamp. Hopefully the full version of the new regulations allows for these. I think their full base type may actually have a suffix after the G9, so they might be in the clear based on that.
There's no difference in the base. There's almost no difference in the lamp - slightly improved lifetime from the 'special' version, don't actually have to use them, especially as they cost five times as much and you're more likely to get the cover off if you have to change it more often..
-
I would like to see their list of exemptions. "Mains voltage Halogen capsules with G9 cap" - that'd be my oven. There is no alternative to a halogen in there.
Oven lamps need to be special high temperature versions of a G9 lamp. Hopefully the full version of the new regulations allows for these. I think their full base type may actually have a suffix after the G9, so they might be in the clear based on that.
There's no difference in the base. There's almost no difference in the lamp - slightly improved lifetime from the 'special' version, don't actually have to use them, especially as they cost five times as much and you're more likely to get the cover off if you have to change it more often..
Every other time they've had similar bans, oven lamps have been exempt. It's such a tiny amount of power, compared to the huge element and a lot of the heat just goes into the oven, where it's used.suprise suprise the government managed to get things slightly wrong with there press release.More sensible information https://www.thelia.org.uk/news/569044/LIAs-response-to-the-Government-Press-release-on-new-lighting-regulations.htm (https://www.thelia.org.uk/news/569044/LIAs-response-to-the-Government-Press-release-on-new-lighting-regulations.htm)
I hope "Lower performing LED lamps" means those which don't meet longevity requirements, as well as efficiency.
Personally speaking, the only use I have for any kind of incandescent lamp is a dim bulb tester and I have a nice stockpile for it.
-
I would like to see their list of exemptions. "Mains voltage Halogen capsules with G9 cap" - that'd be my oven. There is no alternative to a halogen in there.
Oven lamps need to be special high temperature versions of a G9 lamp. Hopefully the full version of the new regulations allows for these. I think their full base type may actually have a suffix after the G9, so they might be in the clear based on that.
There's no difference in the base. There's almost no difference in the lamp - slightly improved lifetime from the 'special' version, don't actually have to use them, especially as they cost five times as much and you're more likely to get the cover off if you have to change it more often..
When I've tried using ordinary bulbs in ovens the base gunge has melted and let the lamp fall apart.
-
I would like to see their list of exemptions. "Mains voltage Halogen capsules with G9 cap" - that'd be my oven. There is no alternative to a halogen in there.
Oven lamps need to be special high temperature versions of a G9 lamp. Hopefully the full version of the new regulations allows for these. I think their full base type may actually have a suffix after the G9, so they might be in the clear based on that.
There's no difference in the base. There's almost no difference in the lamp - slightly improved lifetime from the 'special' version, don't actually have to use them, especially as they cost five times as much and you're more likely to get the cover off if you have to change it more often..
When I've tried using ordinary bulbs in ovens the base gunge has melted and let the lamp fall apart.
What gunge? A G9 is wire, quartz, and some gas. It's a capsule, not a screw lamp.
-
When I've tried using ordinary bulbs in ovens the base gunge has melted and let the lamp fall apart.
What gunge? A G9 is wire, quartz, and some gas. It's a capsule, not a screw lamp.
Oh, sorry, I confused the lamp types. Is there even a high temperature version of a G9 bulb?
-
When I've tried using ordinary bulbs in ovens the base gunge has melted and let the lamp fall apart.
What gunge? A G9 is wire, quartz, and some gas. It's a capsule, not a screw lamp.
Oh, sorry, I confused the lamp types. Is there even a high temperature version of a G9 bulb?
The usual suspects sell specific versions for ovens - the gist of it seems to be a slightly different gas mix to improve life at the higher temperatures. I'm getting a couple years out of generic ones at a fifth the price, so they seem unworthy. That's giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming there actually is a difference..
-
The usual suspects sell specific versions for ovens - the gist of it seems to be a slightly different gas mix to improve life at the higher temperatures. I'm getting a couple years out of generic ones at a fifth the price, so they seem unworthy.
Lamps in modern ovens seem to fail quite quickly, even when you use the right bulbs. They used to last 10 years or more. I think they are moving the bulbs further into the oven and cooking them more. Even so, most ovens are still poorly lit.
-
The usual suspects sell specific versions for ovens - the gist of it seems to be a slightly different gas mix to improve life at the higher temperatures. I'm getting a couple years out of generic ones at a fifth the price, so they seem unworthy.
Lamps in modern ovens seem to fail quite quickly, even when you use the right bulbs. They used to last 10 years or more. I think they are moving the bulbs further into the oven and cooking them more. Even so, most ovens are still poorly lit.
It's not just ovens. I replaced some of the original, Japanese made lamps on a Honda after more than 10 years and 80k miles, and I was replacing the replacements every nine months after that. Can't just sell things once any more.
-
It's not just ovens. I replaced some of the original, Japanese made lamps on a Honda after more than 10 years and 80k miles, and I was replacing the replacements every nine months after that. Can't just sell things once any more.
Watch out for car bulbs that advertise improved brightness, or whiteness. They run the filaments hotter which significantly reduces life.
-
I've never had an aftermarket replacement for any car/truck part last anywhere near as long as the original.
-
Lamps in modern ovens seem to fail quite quickly, even when you use the right bulbs. They used to last 10 years or more. I think they are moving the bulbs further into the oven and cooking them more. Even so, most ovens are still poorly lit.
Add a diode in series with the bulb and use a higher wattage bulb to compensate.
-
I'm pretty sure that was a joke, flicker is obviously not desirable. I've found that trailing-edge dimmers work well to dim a lot of otherwise finicky LED bulbs.
Yes if you dim an incandescent lamp it can last many, many thousands of hours. As has been discussed before though, you pay for that extended life in energy costs. When an incandescent lamp is dimmed down to maybe 5% of full lumens it will still consume something like 50% of rated power. With LED the opposite is true, dim it down and it produces more lumens per watt.
Dimmed LED doesn't have the same attractive color temperature as incandescent, though.
I didn't know they still consumed 50% of "bright" power when dimmed... seems a lot?
-
Dimmed LED doesn't have the same attractive color temperature as incandescent, though.
I didn't know they still consumed 50% of "bright" power when dimmed... seems a lot?
Well like I said, they do make some that attempt to mimic the effect, it isn't perfect but it's not terrible either.
It's been a while since I've taken actual measurements but I know I was surprised. Dim a 60W bulb down to where it's consuming 30W and it will be very dim. If I have a chance later I'll dig out a dimmer and a kill a watt and try it again.
-
Lamps in modern ovens seem to fail quite quickly, even when you use the right bulbs. They used to last 10 years or more. I think they are moving the bulbs further into the oven and cooking them more. Even so, most ovens are still poorly lit.
I wonder if your ovens are worse than ours in that respect? Every oven I can recall seeing has a 40W appliance bulb in it, they're a fairly standard looking lamp, just physically smaller than the typical A19. They put it in a simple reflector on the back wall, every one I can recall has it in the upper-right corner under a glass cover. 10 years sounds about right, I think I've replaced mine once and the one at our cabin once, the latter doesn't get used much so it may have been the original from 1973. They're not incredibly bright but always seemed adequate for seeing what's in the oven.
-
Dimmed LED doesn't have the same attractive color temperature as incandescent, though.
Most dimmable LEDs remain a similar colour, when dimmed. There are special dimmable LEDs which reduce their colour temperature, when dimmed. It isn't a difficult effect to achieve. A high colour and low colour temperature LED, in the same package, with the appropriate controller would do the job. Search for dim to warm LED.
I didn't know they still consumed 50% of "bright" power when dimmed... seems a lot?
Yes, it's that bad, because efficiency of an incandescent lamp drastically falls, with filament temerature.
-
There is diagram about that in old Elfa catalog. It says that at 25% brightness power consumption is 50% but lifetime increases 300-fold
-
There is diagram about that in old Elfa catalog. It says that at 25% brightness power consumption is 50% but lifetime increases 300-fold
Yes, it's a square law, if I remember rightly.
The increase in lifetime is outweighed by the drastically higher running cost. You're better off buying a 25W lamp, than dimming a 100W one to 25% of the brightness. The lamp will have to be replaced more frequently, but it will still work out cheaper.
-
Lamps in modern ovens seem to fail quite quickly, even when you use the right bulbs. They used to last 10 years or more. I think they are moving the bulbs further into the oven and cooking them more. Even so, most ovens are still poorly lit.
Add a diode in series with the bulb and use a higher wattage bulb to compensate.
But unfortunately may disable 'AC' spec RCDs (can't remember the US term for the moment GFCI) which may have poor DC imbalance tolerance due to current transformer saturation.
-
The interesting thing about that graph is just how drastically life decreases with only a modest increase in operating voltage. At just 1.05 times rated voltage the lifespan is cut to *half*. That's 126V over here in 120V land, not completely unheard of, one place I lived for a while was a bit lively, typically 124-125V. I was pretty much all CFL by the time I lived there though but that should have made incandescent lamp life substantially shorter.
-
[...] at 25% brightness power consumption is 50% but lifetime increases 300-fold
That makes sense - this house has a ceiling full of recessed incandescent lamps that are always dimmed. I can't recall the last time I had to change one of those bulbs... elsewhere in the house, LED, CFL, etc., are not able to keep up with the "old tech" in terms of reliability!
-
The interesting thing about that graph is just how drastically life decreases with only a modest increase in operating voltage
Especially noticeable here in the uk when using lamp stock meant for the 230v european market,yea were all supposed to be harmonized at 230V,but when your voltage is sitting at 250v(within spec) the 300 hour lamp life becomes noticeable shorter.
One major downside of leds is they dont fade to black like an incandescent,even the best dimmers ive seen still snap off at some point instead of a nice gentle fade.
-
The supply here is 245-250V+, as most products are designed now for the "harmonised" voltage standard, bulbs and heater elements (such as ovens, showers and kettles) don't last as long as they should. Also some capacitors in SMPSU's are right on their limit for a 230V rated supply and do not cope very well with the UK voltage.
I remember when products (usually with linear transformers) had a 220/230 and 240V setting.
My lutron system will fade incandescent/halogen bulbs down so low they are barely visible, it is a fantastic system but it does not play nicely with some LED's and none will dim as low as traditional bulbs.
The interesting thing about that graph is just how drastically life decreases with only a modest increase in operating voltage
Especially noticeable here in the uk when using lamp stock meant for the 230v european market,yea were all supposed to be harmonized at 230V,but when your voltage is sitting at 250v(within spec) the 300 hour lamp life becomes noticeable shorter.
One major downside of leds is they dont fade to black like an incandescent,even the best dimmers ive seen still snap off at some point instead of a nice gentle fade.
-
Dimming LEDs via SCR/TRIAC based dimmers meant for incandescents seems to me the worst work-around possible.
-
The supply here is 245-250V+, as most products are designed now for the "harmonised" voltage standard, bulbs and heater elements (such as ovens, showers and kettles) don't last as long as they should. Also some capacitors in SMPSU's are right on their limit for a 230V rated supply and do not cope very well with the UK voltage.
I remember when products (usually with linear transformers) had a 220/230 and 240V setting.
My lutron system will fade incandescent/halogen bulbs down so low they are barely visible, it is a fantastic system but it does not play nicely with some LED's and none will dim as low as traditional bulbs.
Do some LED bulbs run at reduced brightness? Many modern LED lamps contain a high voltage string of LEDs and a linear regulator, which drops the last 20V or so. It works fine, when the mains voltage is within the normal specification and the lamp is cool enough, but if the voltage is too high, the linear regulator can overheat, causing it to throttle back the current limit.
Have you spoken to whoever runs your local electricity grid?
If they won't reduce the voltage, you could reduce the voltage to your house by adding an autotransformer. A 1kVA 230V:25V mains transformer, wired as an autotransformer (check the phasing of course) could be used to knock off just over 20V off the supply voltage and should give enough current capacity to power a ring of sockets and a lighting circuit. I don't know if such an arrangement would conform to the wiring regulations. Ask an electrician, if you're unsure.
-
Dimming LEDs via SCR/TRIAC based dimmers meant for incandescents seems to me the worst work-around possible.
Well the idea is the dimmers are already there, and they want people to buy the bulbs. Most of us here could replace a dimmer with a new one easily but most ordinary people have to hire an electrician or handyman and that's expensive. Trailing edge dimmers do work much better than the inexpensive triac type though.
I do have some that will dim some LED bulbs down to a very dim glow rather than snapping off. They are dimmers that were originally meant for dimmable CFL and have a pot behind the faceplate that you can use to set the bottom end to avoid having a dead band where the lamps just go out.
-
I've had numerous bits of monitoring test equipment put here from Western Power Distribution, I started logging the voltage here and the fluctuations (Flickering bulbs, noisy EI and Toroid transformers) And could see it was going up and down +/- 20V some days and also 47-51Hz. When one of the engineers visited here I showed him what was going on in my workshop and he took it very seriously (Probably helped he was also a radio ham) The problem is I live a few feet away from a larger Wafer Fabrication plant, it was INMOS then International Rectifier (Not sure what it is called now) And that uses a crapptone of electricity so we are all affected here when they put a big load on the grid, even though they have their own substation etc. So it's very hard for them to compensate for the properties near by. In addition to that the HUGE EX LG Electronics plant is just a stone throw down the road and that contains the largest data centre in Europe, not to mention other manufacturing plants. So I've given up as there isn't much they can realistically do and we are moving house this year hopefully!
The supply here is 245-250V+, as most products are designed now for the "harmonised" voltage standard, bulbs and heater elements (such as ovens, showers and kettles) don't last as long as they should. Also some capacitors in SMPSU's are right on their limit for a 230V rated supply and do not cope very well with the UK voltage.
I remember when products (usually with linear transformers) had a 220/230 and 240V setting.
My lutron system will fade incandescent/halogen bulbs down so low they are barely visible, it is a fantastic system but it does not play nicely with some LED's and none will dim as low as traditional bulbs.
Do some LED bulbs run at reduced brightness? Many modern LED lamps contain a high voltage string of LEDs and a linear regulator, which drops the last 20V or so. It works fine, when the mains voltage is within the normal specification and the lamp is cool enough, but if the voltage is too high, the linear regulator can overheat, causing it to throttle back the current limit.
Have you spoken to whoever runs your local electricity grid?
If they won't reduce the voltage, you could reduce the voltage to your house by adding an autotransformer. A 1kVA 230V:25V mains transformer, wired as an autotransformer (check the phasing of course) could be used to knock off just over 20V off the supply voltage and should give enough current capacity to power a ring of sockets and a lighting circuit. I don't know if such an arrangement would conform to the wiring regulations. Ask an electrician, if you're unsure.
-
I've had numerous bits of monitoring test equipment put here from Western Power Distribution, I started logging the voltage here and the fluctuations (Flickering bulbs, noisy EI and Toroid transformers) And could see it was going up and down +/- 20V some days and also 47-51Hz. When one of the engineers visited here I showed him what was going on in my workshop and he took it very seriously (Probably helped he was also a radio ham) The problem is I live a few feet away from a larger Wafer Fabrication plant, it was INMOS then International Rectifier (Not sure what it is called now) And that uses a crapptone of electricity so we are all affected here when they put a big load on the grid, even though they have their own substation etc. So it's very hard for them to compensate for the properties near by. In addition to that the HUGE EX LG Electronics plant is just a stone throw down the road and that contains the largest data centre in Europe, not to mention other manufacturing plants. So I've given up as there isn't much they can realistically do and we are moving house this year hopefully!
That's one of the rare applications where I might actually look at getting a big double conversion UPS and put a whole circuit on it. One of those buck/boost voltage stabilizer transformers might actually be useful there too. I never had a use for any of that stuff here, my voltage is stable to within a couple of volts.
-
The supply here is 245-250V+
Have you spoken to whoever runs your local electricity grid?
Why would they care ,250v is still within spec by a full 3 volts
I do have some that will dim some LED bulbs down to a very dim glow rather than snapping off. They are dimmers that were originally meant for dimmable CFL and have a pot behind the faceplate that you can use to set the bottom end to avoid having a dead band where the lamps just go out.
But at the end of the range theirs still a visable snap from light to dark when compared to incandescent,the only successful way ive seen of achieving a nice fade to black with leds involved mechanical shutters
-
But at the end of the range theirs still a visable snap from light to dark when compared to incandescent,the only successful way ive seen of achieving a nice fade to black with leds involved mechanical shutters
They go down dim enough that they are not producing any useful light by that point anyway, the snap to off is not noticeable at all, you'd almost never turn the light down that low on purpose. It looks quite a bit brighter in the picture than it does standing there because the room is on the back side of the house shaded by trees so it's quite dark in there right now. At night this setting is pretty close to the amount of light from a single candle.
I have some other lamps made by Cree that are in one of the bathrooms, they are not on a dimmer but turning them off they produce a noticeable fade, probably 200ms from full brightness all the way down to off. I haven't tried one on a dimmer but I suspect it would behave similarly.
-
You can buy self dimming bulbs, they are just a smart bulb with bluetooth and a dimmer thing that clips over your light socket with buttons/knob.
I have a few "transient rooms" like hallways, bathrooms with motion sensed lights. They are set to 50% brightness except between midnight and 6am when they are 25%. Works a treat. Even in a bathroom or hallway, you don't need the bulb on 100% brightness, if you do, you probably need a bigger lamp.
-
They go down dim enough that they are not producing any useful light by that point anyway, the snap to off is not noticeable at all, you'd almost never turn the light down that low on purpose
Maybe not in a domestic environment,but in a theater it can be very noticeable.
-
Maybe not in a domestic environment,but in a theater it can be very noticeable.
I had assumed we were talking about a domestic environment. A theater is somewhat more specialized and may need a more specialized solution. It's certainly possible to dim LEDs smoothly all the way down to zero, there are technical issues doing so with a triac dimmer meant for incandescent lamps. I have some that will go down even lower than those Philips lamps on a trailing edge dimmer though.
-
it was INMOS then International Rectifier (Not sure what it is called now)
Not a million million microns from the ONS then?
Simon