Author Topic: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.  (Read 2754 times)

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Offline artag

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2021, 12:25:45 am »
In what applications do you want the heat from the bulb? A lava lamp?

Yes.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2021, 01:16:35 am »
I like dimmed lights in the evening, kind of glowing campfire kind of effect.  Hard to do well with LEDs...
Large numbers of dimmable LED bulbs do an excellent campfire simulation by flickering in a very unstable way as you turn the brightness down.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2021, 01:57:53 pm »
I like dimmed lights in the evening, kind of glowing campfire kind of effect.  Hard to do well with LEDs...
Large numbers of dimmable LED bulbs do an excellent campfire simulation by flickering in a very unstable way as you turn the brightness down.

Flickering is not necessarily what we're after in the living room application, though.  We are after the "red shift" as the filament runs cooler...

Not to mention the long bulb life...   probably rivaling LEDs?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2021, 05:31:43 pm »
I'm pretty sure that was a joke, flicker is obviously not desirable. I've found that trailing-edge dimmers work well to dim a lot of otherwise finicky LED bulbs.

Yes if you dim an incandescent lamp it can last many, many thousands of hours. As has been discussed before though, you pay for that extended life in energy costs. When an incandescent lamp is dimmed down to maybe 5% of full lumens it will still consume something like 50% of rated power. With LED the opposite is true, dim it down and it produces more lumens per watt.
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2021, 06:00:13 pm »
suprise suprise the  government managed to get things slightly wrong with there press release.More sensible information https://www.thelia.org.uk/news/569044/LIAs-response-to-the-Government-Press-release-on-new-lighting-regulations.htm
 

Offline coppice

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2021, 07:12:04 pm »
suprise suprise the  government managed to get things slightly wrong with there press release.More sensible information https://www.thelia.org.uk/news/569044/LIAs-response-to-the-Government-Press-release-on-new-lighting-regulations.htm
I guess "Linear Halogen R7s lamps over 2,700 lumens" is specifically worded to continue permitting the sale of R7s lamps for food warmers and therapy lamps.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2021, 07:14:18 pm »
I would like to see their list of exemptions. "Mains voltage Halogen capsules with G9 cap" - that'd be my oven. There is no alternative to a halogen in there.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2021, 07:18:09 pm »
I would like to see their list of exemptions. "Mains voltage Halogen capsules with G9 cap" - that'd be my oven. There is no alternative to a halogen in there.
Oven lamps need to be special high temperature versions of a G9 lamp. Hopefully the full version of the new regulations allows for these. I think their full base type may actually have a suffix after the G9, so they might be in the clear based on that.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2021, 07:26:38 pm »
I would like to see their list of exemptions. "Mains voltage Halogen capsules with G9 cap" - that'd be my oven. There is no alternative to a halogen in there.
Oven lamps need to be special high temperature versions of a G9 lamp. Hopefully the full version of the new regulations allows for these. I think their full base type may actually have a suffix after the G9, so they might be in the clear based on that.

There's no difference in the base. There's almost no difference in the lamp - slightly improved lifetime from the 'special' version, don't actually have to use them, especially as they cost five times as much and you're more likely to get the cover off if you have to change it more often..
 

Online Zero999

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2021, 07:29:38 pm »
I would like to see their list of exemptions. "Mains voltage Halogen capsules with G9 cap" - that'd be my oven. There is no alternative to a halogen in there.
Oven lamps need to be special high temperature versions of a G9 lamp. Hopefully the full version of the new regulations allows for these. I think their full base type may actually have a suffix after the G9, so they might be in the clear based on that.

There's no difference in the base. There's almost no difference in the lamp - slightly improved lifetime from the 'special' version, don't actually have to use them, especially as they cost five times as much and you're more likely to get the cover off if you have to change it more often..
Every other time they've had similar bans, oven lamps have been exempt. It's such a tiny amount of power, compared to the huge element and a lot of the heat just goes into the oven, where it's used.
suprise suprise the  government managed to get things slightly wrong with there press release.More sensible information https://www.thelia.org.uk/news/569044/LIAs-response-to-the-Government-Press-release-on-new-lighting-regulations.htm
I hope "Lower performing LED lamps" means those which don't meet longevity requirements, as well as efficiency.

Personally speaking, the only use I have for any kind of incandescent lamp is a dim bulb tester and I have a nice stockpile for it.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2021, 07:31:44 pm »
I would like to see their list of exemptions. "Mains voltage Halogen capsules with G9 cap" - that'd be my oven. There is no alternative to a halogen in there.
Oven lamps need to be special high temperature versions of a G9 lamp. Hopefully the full version of the new regulations allows for these. I think their full base type may actually have a suffix after the G9, so they might be in the clear based on that.

There's no difference in the base. There's almost no difference in the lamp - slightly improved lifetime from the 'special' version, don't actually have to use them, especially as they cost five times as much and you're more likely to get the cover off if you have to change it more often..
When I've tried using ordinary bulbs in ovens the base gunge has melted and let the lamp fall apart.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2021, 07:36:52 pm »
I would like to see their list of exemptions. "Mains voltage Halogen capsules with G9 cap" - that'd be my oven. There is no alternative to a halogen in there.
Oven lamps need to be special high temperature versions of a G9 lamp. Hopefully the full version of the new regulations allows for these. I think their full base type may actually have a suffix after the G9, so they might be in the clear based on that.

There's no difference in the base. There's almost no difference in the lamp - slightly improved lifetime from the 'special' version, don't actually have to use them, especially as they cost five times as much and you're more likely to get the cover off if you have to change it more often..
When I've tried using ordinary bulbs in ovens the base gunge has melted and let the lamp fall apart.

What gunge? A G9 is wire, quartz, and some gas. It's a capsule, not a screw lamp.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2021, 08:52:32 pm »
When I've tried using ordinary bulbs in ovens the base gunge has melted and let the lamp fall apart.
What gunge? A G9 is wire, quartz, and some gas. It's a capsule, not a screw lamp.
Oh, sorry, I confused the lamp types. Is there even a high temperature version of a G9 bulb?
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2021, 08:53:57 pm »
When I've tried using ordinary bulbs in ovens the base gunge has melted and let the lamp fall apart.
What gunge? A G9 is wire, quartz, and some gas. It's a capsule, not a screw lamp.
Oh, sorry, I confused the lamp types. Is there even a high temperature version of a G9 bulb?

The usual suspects sell specific versions for ovens - the gist of it seems to be a slightly different gas mix to improve life at the higher temperatures. I'm getting a couple years out of generic ones at a fifth the price, so they seem unworthy. That's giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming there actually is a difference..
 

Offline coppice

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2021, 08:56:13 pm »
The usual suspects sell specific versions for ovens - the gist of it seems to be a slightly different gas mix to improve life at the higher temperatures. I'm getting a couple years out of generic ones at a fifth the price, so they seem unworthy.
Lamps in modern ovens seem to fail quite quickly, even when you use the right bulbs. They used to last 10 years or more. I think they are moving the bulbs further into the oven and cooking them more. Even so, most ovens are still poorly lit.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #40 on: June 10, 2021, 09:00:30 pm »
The usual suspects sell specific versions for ovens - the gist of it seems to be a slightly different gas mix to improve life at the higher temperatures. I'm getting a couple years out of generic ones at a fifth the price, so they seem unworthy.
Lamps in modern ovens seem to fail quite quickly, even when you use the right bulbs. They used to last 10 years or more. I think they are moving the bulbs further into the oven and cooking them more. Even so, most ovens are still poorly lit.

It's not just ovens. I replaced some of the original, Japanese made lamps on a Honda after more than 10 years and 80k miles, and I was replacing the replacements every nine months after that. Can't just sell things once any more.
 

Offline andy2000

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #41 on: June 10, 2021, 10:11:28 pm »
It's not just ovens. I replaced some of the original, Japanese made lamps on a Honda after more than 10 years and 80k miles, and I was replacing the replacements every nine months after that. Can't just sell things once any more.

Watch out for car bulbs that advertise improved brightness, or whiteness.  They run the filaments hotter which significantly reduces life. 
 

Offline rdl

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2021, 11:40:02 pm »
I've never had an aftermarket replacement for any car/truck part last anywhere near as long as the original.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2021, 12:31:59 am »
Lamps in modern ovens seem to fail quite quickly, even when you use the right bulbs. They used to last 10 years or more. I think they are moving the bulbs further into the oven and cooking them more. Even so, most ovens are still poorly lit.
Add a diode in series with the bulb and use a higher wattage bulb to compensate.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2021, 01:42:08 am »
I'm pretty sure that was a joke, flicker is obviously not desirable. I've found that trailing-edge dimmers work well to dim a lot of otherwise finicky LED bulbs.

Yes if you dim an incandescent lamp it can last many, many thousands of hours. As has been discussed before though, you pay for that extended life in energy costs. When an incandescent lamp is dimmed down to maybe 5% of full lumens it will still consume something like 50% of rated power. With LED the opposite is true, dim it down and it produces more lumens per watt.

Dimmed LED doesn't have the same attractive color temperature as incandescent, though.

I didn't know they still consumed 50% of "bright" power when dimmed...  seems a lot?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2021, 04:04:08 am »
Dimmed LED doesn't have the same attractive color temperature as incandescent, though.

I didn't know they still consumed 50% of "bright" power when dimmed...  seems a lot?

Well like I said, they do make some that attempt to mimic the effect, it isn't perfect but it's not terrible either.

It's been a while since I've taken actual measurements but I know I was surprised. Dim a 60W bulb down to where it's consuming 30W and it will be very dim. If I have a chance later I'll dig out a dimmer and a kill a watt and try it again.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2021, 04:10:03 am »
Lamps in modern ovens seem to fail quite quickly, even when you use the right bulbs. They used to last 10 years or more. I think they are moving the bulbs further into the oven and cooking them more. Even so, most ovens are still poorly lit.

I wonder if your ovens are worse than ours in that respect? Every oven I can recall seeing has a 40W appliance bulb in it, they're a fairly standard looking lamp, just physically smaller than the typical A19. They put it in a simple reflector on the back wall, every one I can recall has it in the upper-right corner under a glass cover. 10 years sounds about right, I think I've replaced mine once and the one at our cabin once, the latter doesn't get used much so it may have been the original from 1973. They're not incredibly bright but always seemed adequate for seeing what's in the oven.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2021, 07:37:52 am »
Dimmed LED doesn't have the same attractive color temperature as incandescent, though.
Most dimmable LEDs remain a similar colour, when dimmed. There are special dimmable LEDs which reduce their colour temperature, when dimmed. It isn't a difficult effect to achieve. A high colour and low colour temperature LED, in the same package, with the appropriate controller would do the job. Search for dim to warm LED.

Quote
I didn't know they still consumed 50% of "bright" power when dimmed...  seems a lot?
Yes, it's that bad, because efficiency of an incandescent lamp drastically falls, with filament temerature.
 

Offline Nauris

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2021, 04:53:18 pm »
There is diagram about that in old Elfa catalog. It says that at 25% brightness power consumption is 50% but lifetime increases 300-fold
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2021, 05:06:20 pm »
There is diagram about that in old Elfa catalog. It says that at 25% brightness power consumption is 50% but lifetime increases 300-fold
Yes, it's a square law, if I remember rightly.

The increase in lifetime is outweighed by the drastically higher running cost. You're better off buying a 25W lamp, than dimming a 100W one to 25% of the brightness. The lamp will have to be replaced more frequently, but it will still work out cheaper.
 


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