Author Topic: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.  (Read 2609 times)

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Offline Gyro

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2021, 06:40:37 pm »
Lamps in modern ovens seem to fail quite quickly, even when you use the right bulbs. They used to last 10 years or more. I think they are moving the bulbs further into the oven and cooking them more. Even so, most ovens are still poorly lit.
Add a diode in series with the bulb and use a higher wattage bulb to compensate.

But unfortunately may disable 'AC' spec RCDs (can't remember the US term for the moment GFCI) which may have poor DC imbalance tolerance due to current transformer saturation.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 06:53:13 pm by Gyro »
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Offline james_s

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2021, 09:40:08 pm »
The interesting thing about that graph is just how drastically life decreases with only a modest increase in operating voltage. At just 1.05 times rated voltage the lifespan is cut to *half*. That's 126V over here in 120V land, not completely unheard of, one place I lived for a while was a bit lively, typically 124-125V. I was pretty much all CFL by the time I lived there though but that should have made incandescent lamp life substantially shorter.
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2021, 10:27:40 pm »
[...] at 25% brightness power consumption is 50% but lifetime increases 300-fold

That makes sense - this house has a ceiling full of recessed incandescent lamps that are always dimmed.  I can't recall the last time I had to change one of those bulbs...   elsewhere in the house, LED, CFL, etc., are not able to keep up with the "old tech" in terms of reliability!
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2021, 12:25:56 am »
Quote
The interesting thing about that graph is just how drastically life decreases with only a modest increase in operating voltage
Especially noticeable here in the uk when using lamp stock meant for the 230v european market,yea were all supposed to be harmonized at 230V,but when your voltage is sitting at 250v(within spec) the 300 hour lamp life becomes noticeable shorter.
  One major downside of leds is they dont fade to black like an incandescent,even the best dimmers ive seen still  snap off at some point instead of a nice gentle fade.
 

Offline TheBay

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2021, 12:38:18 am »
The supply here is 245-250V+, as most products are designed now for the "harmonised" voltage standard, bulbs and heater elements (such as ovens, showers and kettles) don't last as long as they should. Also some capacitors in SMPSU's are right on their limit for a 230V rated supply and do not cope very well with the UK voltage.

I remember when products (usually with linear transformers) had a 220/230 and 240V setting.

My lutron system will fade incandescent/halogen bulbs down so low they are barely visible, it is a fantastic system but it does not play nicely with some LED's and none will dim as low as traditional bulbs.

Quote
The interesting thing about that graph is just how drastically life decreases with only a modest increase in operating voltage
Especially noticeable here in the uk when using lamp stock meant for the 230v european market,yea were all supposed to be harmonized at 230V,but when your voltage is sitting at 250v(within spec) the 300 hour lamp life becomes noticeable shorter.
  One major downside of leds is they dont fade to black like an incandescent,even the best dimmers ive seen still  snap off at some point instead of a nice gentle fade.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 12:41:19 am by TheBay »
 

Offline madires

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2021, 02:25:35 pm »
Dimming LEDs via SCR/TRIAC based dimmers meant for incandescents seems to me the worst work-around possible.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2021, 06:03:39 pm »
The supply here is 245-250V+, as most products are designed now for the "harmonised" voltage standard, bulbs and heater elements (such as ovens, showers and kettles) don't last as long as they should. Also some capacitors in SMPSU's are right on their limit for a 230V rated supply and do not cope very well with the UK voltage.

I remember when products (usually with linear transformers) had a 220/230 and 240V setting.

My lutron system will fade incandescent/halogen bulbs down so low they are barely visible, it is a fantastic system but it does not play nicely with some LED's and none will dim as low as traditional bulbs.
Do some LED bulbs run at reduced brightness? Many modern LED lamps contain a high voltage string of LEDs and a linear regulator, which drops the last 20V or so. It works fine, when the mains voltage is within the normal specification and the lamp is cool enough, but if the voltage is too high, the linear regulator can overheat, causing it to throttle back the current limit.

Have you spoken to whoever runs your local electricity grid?

If they won't reduce the voltage, you could reduce the voltage to your house by adding an autotransformer. A 1kVA 230V:25V mains transformer, wired as an autotransformer (check the phasing of course) could be used to knock off just over 20V off the supply voltage and should give enough current capacity to power a ring of sockets and a lighting circuit. I don't know if such an arrangement would conform to the wiring regulations. Ask an electrician, if you're unsure.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2021, 06:06:41 pm »
Dimming LEDs via SCR/TRIAC based dimmers meant for incandescents seems to me the worst work-around possible.

Well the idea is the dimmers are already there, and they want people to buy the bulbs. Most of us here could replace a dimmer with a new one easily but most ordinary people have to hire an electrician or handyman and that's expensive. Trailing edge dimmers do work much better than the inexpensive triac type though.

I do have some that will dim some LED bulbs down to a very dim glow rather than snapping off. They are dimmers that were originally meant for dimmable CFL and have a pot behind the faceplate that you can use to set the bottom end to avoid having a dead band where the lamps just go out.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 06:09:47 pm by james_s »
 

Offline TheBay

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2021, 06:18:58 pm »
I've had numerous bits of monitoring test equipment put here from Western Power Distribution, I started logging the voltage here and the fluctuations (Flickering bulbs, noisy EI and Toroid transformers) And could see it was going up and down +/- 20V some days and also 47-51Hz. When one of the engineers visited here I showed him what was going on in my workshop and he took it very seriously (Probably helped he was also a radio ham) The problem is I live a few feet away from a larger Wafer Fabrication plant, it was INMOS then International Rectifier (Not sure what it is called now) And that uses a crapptone of electricity so we are all affected here when they put a big load on the grid, even though they have their own substation etc. So it's very hard for them to compensate for the properties near by. In addition to that the HUGE EX LG Electronics plant is just a stone throw down the road and that contains the largest data centre in Europe, not to mention other manufacturing plants. So I've given up as there isn't much they can realistically do and we are moving house this year hopefully!


The supply here is 245-250V+, as most products are designed now for the "harmonised" voltage standard, bulbs and heater elements (such as ovens, showers and kettles) don't last as long as they should. Also some capacitors in SMPSU's are right on their limit for a 230V rated supply and do not cope very well with the UK voltage.

I remember when products (usually with linear transformers) had a 220/230 and 240V setting.

My lutron system will fade incandescent/halogen bulbs down so low they are barely visible, it is a fantastic system but it does not play nicely with some LED's and none will dim as low as traditional bulbs.
Do some LED bulbs run at reduced brightness? Many modern LED lamps contain a high voltage string of LEDs and a linear regulator, which drops the last 20V or so. It works fine, when the mains voltage is within the normal specification and the lamp is cool enough, but if the voltage is too high, the linear regulator can overheat, causing it to throttle back the current limit.

Have you spoken to whoever runs your local electricity grid?

If they won't reduce the voltage, you could reduce the voltage to your house by adding an autotransformer. A 1kVA 230V:25V mains transformer, wired as an autotransformer (check the phasing of course) could be used to knock off just over 20V off the supply voltage and should give enough current capacity to power a ring of sockets and a lighting circuit. I don't know if such an arrangement would conform to the wiring regulations. Ask an electrician, if you're unsure.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2021, 06:31:31 pm »
I've had numerous bits of monitoring test equipment put here from Western Power Distribution, I started logging the voltage here and the fluctuations (Flickering bulbs, noisy EI and Toroid transformers) And could see it was going up and down +/- 20V some days and also 47-51Hz. When one of the engineers visited here I showed him what was going on in my workshop and he took it very seriously (Probably helped he was also a radio ham) The problem is I live a few feet away from a larger Wafer Fabrication plant, it was INMOS then International Rectifier (Not sure what it is called now) And that uses a crapptone of electricity so we are all affected here when they put a big load on the grid, even though they have their own substation etc. So it's very hard for them to compensate for the properties near by. In addition to that the HUGE EX LG Electronics plant is just a stone throw down the road and that contains the largest data centre in Europe, not to mention other manufacturing plants. So I've given up as there isn't much they can realistically do and we are moving house this year hopefully!

That's one of the rare applications where I might actually look at getting a big double conversion UPS and put a whole circuit on it. One of those buck/boost voltage stabilizer transformers might actually be useful there too. I never had a use for any of that stuff here, my voltage is stable to within a couple of volts.
 
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #60 on: June 12, 2021, 06:56:45 pm »
Quote
The supply here is 245-250V+

Quote
Have you spoken to whoever runs your local electricity grid?

Why would they care ,250v is still within spec by a full 3 volts

Quote
I do have some that will dim some LED bulbs down to a very dim glow rather than snapping off. They are dimmers that were originally meant for dimmable CFL and have a pot behind the faceplate that you can use to set the bottom end to avoid having a dead band where the lamps just go out.
But at the end of the range theirs still a visable snap from light to dark when compared to incandescent,the only successful way ive seen of achieving a nice fade to black with leds involved mechanical shutters
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 06:58:30 pm by themadhippy »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #61 on: June 12, 2021, 08:12:10 pm »
But at the end of the range theirs still a visable snap from light to dark when compared to incandescent,the only successful way ive seen of achieving a nice fade to black with leds involved mechanical shutters

They go down dim enough that they are not producing any useful light by that point anyway, the snap to off is not noticeable at all, you'd almost never turn the light down that low on purpose. It looks quite a bit brighter in the picture than it does standing there because the room is on the back side of the house shaded by trees so it's quite dark in there right now. At night this setting is pretty close to the amount of light from a single candle.

I have some other lamps made by Cree that are in one of the bathrooms, they are not on a dimmer but turning them off they produce a noticeable fade, probably 200ms from full brightness all the way down to off. I haven't tried one on a dimmer but I suspect it would behave similarly.
 

Offline paulca

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #62 on: June 12, 2021, 09:26:10 pm »
You can buy self dimming bulbs, they are just a smart bulb with bluetooth and a dimmer thing that clips over your light socket with buttons/knob.

I have a few "transient rooms" like hallways, bathrooms with motion sensed lights.  They are set to 50% brightness except between midnight and 6am when they are 25%.  Works a treat.  Even in a bathroom or hallway, you don't need the bulb on 100% brightness, if you do, you probably need a bigger lamp.
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #63 on: June 12, 2021, 10:27:42 pm »
Quote
They go down dim enough that they are not producing any useful light by that point anyway, the snap to off is not noticeable at all, you'd almost never turn the light down that low on purpose
Maybe not in a domestic environment,but in a theater it  can be  very noticeable.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2021, 04:37:05 am »
Maybe not in a domestic environment,but in a theater it  can be  very noticeable.

I had assumed we were talking about a domestic environment. A theater is somewhat more specialized and may need a more specialized solution. It's certainly possible to dim LEDs smoothly all the way down to zero, there are technical issues doing so with a triac dimmer meant for incandescent lamps. I have some that will go down even lower than those Philips lamps on a trailing edge dimmer though.
 

Offline SimonM

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Re: UK to attempt to ban the sale of halogen bulbs.
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2021, 06:34:57 am »
it was INMOS then International Rectifier (Not sure what it is called now)

Not a million million microns from the ONS then?

Simon
 
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