Author Topic: UNI-T UT71E calibration question  (Read 53826 times)

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Offline saturation

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2011, 06:43:53 pm »
On the cheap, its possible to adjust any meter with non-metrological sources so long as the source is stable for a few minutes, and the reference meter is equal to or better than the DUT.  For accuracy, the reference meter needs to be calibrated.  Its not a preferred way because its non-standardized and difficulty to deploy to metrology houses.

For example, if you have a 5.00V source but if you measure it down to the uV its stable for 5 minutes say e.g. 5.0015V, you can measure it with reference meter, then DUT, adjust, measure again with DUT, reference etc., and repeat the cycle to insure at any time, the reference meter value = DUT value regardless of what the source is showing say 10 minutes later; you've now transferred the reference meter's accuracy to the DUT for this range.  If you have a calibrated meter with lesser resolution, and the DUT has higher resolution, you'll transfer the accuracy of the lesser meter.  If the source is too unstable at the uV level, but stable at mV level, then you're limited to the resolution of the source that is stable, that is mV, regardless of the reference meter.

The whole point of this exercise is to prioritize accuracy over resolution.




Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline LightagesTopic starter

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2011, 07:44:19 pm »
Because I live in the middle of a tech vacuum here, it is best that I have a couple of voltage standards to check my own meters. With this in mind I will be buying the necessary standards to do my own calibrations up to the 40V scale. The higher scales will be calibrated using additional measured smaller voltages (measured by the now partially calibrated meter) in series. I know this will not be ideal, but it will work for me.
 

Offline saturation

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2011, 08:47:53 pm »
Yes, that's precisely it.  When I lived in the Pacific, we had next to nothing [ worse in the 1980s] and getting gear took weeks or months before it ever showed up [if it didn't get stolen or damaged in transit]. 

I finally saw it 'suggested' when I received my Agilent 1252a, its actually in the calibration page of the manual.   I don't often see it mentioned anywhere.  Here the Agilent folks suggest the 3458a, probably one of the last 8.5 digits around, as the 1252a has a resolution of 1uV, but it may be possible to use a lesser meter for the other scales.




Because I live in the middle of a tech vacuum here, it is best that I have a couple of voltage standards to check my own meters. With this in mind I will be buying the necessary standards to do my own calibrations up to the 40V scale. The higher scales will be calibrated using additional measured smaller voltages (measured by the now partially calibrated meter) in series. I know this will not be ideal, but it will work for me.
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

alm

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2011, 10:32:04 pm »
On the cheap, its possible to adjust any meter with non-metrological sources so long as the source is stable for a few minutes, and the reference meter is equal to or better than the DUT.  For accuracy, the reference meter needs to be calibrated.  Its not a preferred way because its non-standardized and difficulty to deploy to metrology houses.
Sure, that works, as long as short-term stability and noise is good enough and you can generate the value it wants. This can actually be tricky at higher voltages and for AC. Do you have a stable 1000VDC source? Or something like a stable 300VAC 10kHz source? I've actually adjusted the 30V range of a multimeter with something like 7Vrms because that was the max. output of my only stable function generator. Not great for accuracy, but the previous cal constants had a slope of zero (result was 10V, regardless of input), so at least the accuracy got much better :).

For example, if you have a 5.00V source but if you measure it down to the uV its stable for 5 minutes say e.g. 5.0015V, you can measure it with reference meter, then DUT, adjust, measure again with DUT, reference etc., and repeat the cycle to insure at any time [...]
I've done this, I agree it works fine (although I wouldn't consider that meter calibrated). I don't like to invest much in calibration sources because they are basically single-purpose devices. Something like a multimeter is much more versatile, so I've always had to improvise. The more resolution the meter has, the more interesting this exercise becomes. Lab supplies are not very stable if you're measuring down to the µV level, and 1/4W resistors are completely unstable (not even for a few seconds) due to self heating from the test current. But fortunately I don't think the UT71E is in that territory.

The issue I see with the Uni-T meter is that the supplied calibration procedure suggests to me that the trimmer is only for the lowest VDC range, and the other ranges just require a certain input value. It doesn't show the option of entering an arbitrary value it should expect. In that case, you have to generate the 5.0000V +/- .03% or whatever the spec is, at least for a few minutes. Good luck doing that with some random LM723-based lab PSU. Even getting a potmeter to sit exactly on that value is hard, most pots have a fairly limited settability, even the multi-turn ones.

I finally saw it 'suggested' when I received my Agilent 1252a, its actually in the calibration page of the manual.   I don't often see it mentioned anywhere.  Here the Agilent folks suggest the 3458a, probably one of the last 8.5 digits around, as the 1252a has a resolution of 1uV, but it may be possible to use a lesser meter for the other scales.
The 8.5 digits may not actually be necessary (a 6.5 digit ~20ppm meter should be enough), maybe they just recommend it because most cal labs tend to have a reference multimeter like that around. But yes, extremely linear multimeters have largely replaced the old way of dividers and null meters. A stable source (although they probably don't abuse a lab supply to do it) and an accurate multimeter is all you need in that case. Sometimes even the pros struggle with accuracy, I think the calibration procedure for the HP 3468A 5.5 digit bench meter states that the reference multimeter (I think it was an HP 3455A) should be calibrated within 24h before calibrating the 3468A, because the 90 days accuracy spec was not good enough.
 

Offline nukie

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2011, 06:54:18 am »
Thank you very much for sharing the calibration instructions. I followed the youtube clip and calibrated my UT71D meter along side with my Fluke 8840A and now it is spot on. I only have a 60V power supply at this time so I only did the 1.9V and 19V, you will notice the reading changes as soon as you press the hold button. You don't have to mess with the RANGE key as you increase the voltage to 19v, the auto-ranging will take care of it. I pressed hold many times at the 1.9000v it doesn't affect the higher ranges. The meter is quite clever not to store 1.9000v into the 19.000v calibration.

The low range VDC measurement is now *calibrated* and higher range voltages remained the same. I didn't have any issues with the higher range voltages so I am going to leave as is. It's quite fun, now I can calibrate it as regularly as I wish.   ;)

There are different instructions for ACV and also Ohms calibration on youtube.



« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 07:01:56 am by nukie »
 

Offline saturation

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2011, 01:24:49 pm »
Yes, its not doable on all meters; the Fluke 87V for example, will not allow partial calibrations: doing only one or 2 ranges ... its all or none.  However, older Flukes in the series with pot adjustments you had free reign in choosing not only which range but what reference voltage to use.  The meter's linearity took care of the rest.  After the DIY calibration you can check values across the entire range of the meter from mV to kV to insure it matches your reference meter.  But truly, Fluke 80 series work well in heat and humidity, it never needed adjustment in 10 years, the only problem was performance checks, who was off, the Fluke or the reference voltage?  In the Pacific temp would swing from 75F to 120F daily, in the shade.

High frequency and voltage AC sources are not easy to come by, and its tricky doing the high current calibrations on AC and DC.  The good news, accurate AC isn't as critical in my need as DC.  But in the olden days we'd use AC voltage regulators [ typical in the boonies to run gear like PCs] and under no load provides stable 120-240Vac output at 60Hz typically down to 100mVac, most stable at 1Vac; that's what was available easily.

You can get stable low cost kV DC sources by looking for surplus electrophoretic power supplies, they deliver 3-6kV, old ones to 600Vdc and stable to the mV.  I got one on eBay for $10.  The stability is important because protein electrophoresis requires a stable reliable voltage source or the migration will be off; these power supplies are dumped by biological labs every year, they cost $1K-10K each new, and well, that's bioresearch!

Many new batteries, and my favorite now is eneloop NiMH LSD, have stable voltage outputs to the 10uV, even 1uV for a few minutes, particularly when using very high input impedance meters.  Fresh charge them, let them 'rest' for a day before using them as a votlage reference to transfer measurements between 2 meters.  You can series them to go from 1.2Vdc to XVdc but it gets noiser as the contacts and uV errors magnify with each series cell.

Precision resistors are stable to the 1-10 uV level, for many minutes, stock up on them when you find < = 0.01% and the higher the wattage, the less likely to drift due to thermal and electrical heating.  For best results use as low a voltage as possible for generating mA you need for cal.  Values in the mid Kohm are best, as megaohm types are noisiest and single digit ohms require too much power.

As for using resistors for precision voltage dividers you can too, but the weak link is the quality of the connection between any 2 resistors, soldering is the best bet.

On the cheap, its possible to adjust any meter with non-metrological sources so long as the source is stable for a few minutes, and the reference meter is equal to or better than the DUT.  For accuracy, the reference meter needs to be calibrated.  Its not a preferred way because its non-standardized and difficulty to deploy to metrology houses.
Sure, that works, as long as short-term stability and noise is good enough and you can generate the value it wants. This can actually be tricky at higher voltages and for AC. Do you have a stable 1000VDC source? Or something like a stable 300VAC 10kHz source? I've actually adjusted the 30V range of a multimeter with something like 7Vrms because that was the max. output of my only stable function generator. Not great for accuracy, but the previous cal constants had a slope of zero (result was 10V, regardless of input), so at least the accuracy got much better :).

For example, if you have a 5.00V source but if you measure it down to the uV its stable for 5 minutes say e.g. 5.0015V, you can measure it with reference meter, then DUT, adjust, measure again with DUT, reference etc., and repeat the cycle to insure at any time [...]
I've done this, I agree it works fine (although I wouldn't consider that meter calibrated). I don't like to invest much in calibration sources because they are basically single-purpose devices. Something like a multimeter is much more versatile, so I've always had to improvise. The more resolution the meter has, the more interesting this exercise becomes. Lab supplies are not very stable if you're measuring down to the µV level, and 1/4W resistors are completely unstable (not even for a few seconds) due to self heating from the test current. But fortunately I don't think the UT71E is in that territory.

The issue I see with the Uni-T meter is that the supplied calibration procedure suggests to me that the trimmer is only for the lowest VDC range, and the other ranges just require a certain input value. It doesn't show the option of entering an arbitrary value it should expect. In that case, you have to generate the 5.0000V +/- .03% or whatever the spec is, at least for a few minutes. Good luck doing that with some random LM723-based lab PSU. Even getting a potmeter to sit exactly on that value is hard, most pots have a fairly limited settability, even the multi-turn ones.

I finally saw it 'suggested' when I received my Agilent 1252a, its actually in the calibration page of the manual.   I don't often see it mentioned anywhere.  Here the Agilent folks suggest the 3458a, probably one of the last 8.5 digits around, as the 1252a has a resolution of 1uV, but it may be possible to use a lesser meter for the other scales.
The 8.5 digits may not actually be necessary (a 6.5 digit ~20ppm meter should be enough), maybe they just recommend it because most cal labs tend to have a reference multimeter like that around. But yes, extremely linear multimeters have largely replaced the old way of dividers and null meters. A stable source (although they probably don't abuse a lab supply to do it) and an accurate multimeter is all you need in that case. Sometimes even the pros struggle with accuracy, I think the calibration procedure for the HP 3468A 5.5 digit bench meter states that the reference multimeter (I think it was an HP 3455A) should be calibrated within 24h before calibrating the 3468A, because the 90 days accuracy spec was not good enough.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 02:13:54 pm by saturation »
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline pklawit

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2011, 11:08:24 am »
Hello Experts!

I have bought a Voltcraft VC940 DMM recently. According to what I have found over Internet
and to the label on the circuit board it is in fact UT-71E manufactured by Uni-Trend.

I would be very happy about that DMM as comparing to my old, 20 years old Metex.
But, there are two (or probably only one) problems, that I have found:
1. It does not show 0 on the mV range, when the probes are shorted.
    Actually it shows -14,34mV instead of 0,0.
2. On the temperature measurement with K probe connected it displays -363,42 degrees Celsius,
    or about -630 degrees Fahrenheit. I believe this error comes from the first one,
    as the K probe generates milivolts.

I have found and tried to use the calibrating procedure described in this thread,
but the problem is, that it is not valid for the mV range, I believe.
The procedure says, that on the 400mV range the VR2 resistor should be used to set the upper limit (199,V)
and then for higher ranges, the "software" calibration should be used.
But the procedure does not say anything, how to reach 0.0 readings on the 400mV range.

Anybody knows how to do that?
Problem is only on the 400mV range and temperature.
For other ranges DMM shows correctly 0.0 when the probes are shorted.

Regards,
Piotr
 

Offline pklawit

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2011, 11:22:41 am »
Hello again,

I have found kind of "workaround" for the 400mV range :-)
When I short the probes and it shows the buggy reading, I can press the REL button,
so from now it shows 0,0 and all readings are relative to the zero-offset.

Unfortunately this trick does not work for the temperature measurements :-(

Regards,
Piotr
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2011, 02:23:40 pm »
Piotr do a favor to your self and read the Users manual .
And if you have lost it , download the one for the UT-71E.



 

Offline pklawit

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2011, 05:09:55 pm »
Hi Kiriakos,

Nice try.
I have read the user manual. I have the original delivered with VC940.
Should I look for anything particular there?

Piotr.
 

Offline pklawit

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2011, 05:18:08 pm »
Hi Kiriakos, All,

I did addidional test.
I have set bench power supply to 0,190V, so 190mV.
Then I have connected Fluke 73 and the VC960 to the supply in parallel.

Fluke set to Volts range shows 0.190 VDC
Voltcraft set to Volts range shows 0,1903 VDC

Fluke set to milivolts range shows 190,3 mV
Voltcraft set to milivolts shows 175,4 mV

So, the Voltcraft substracts exactly the 14mV offset, that I have noticed shorting the probes.

So in my opinion it really needs some adjustment for the zero setting on the milivolt range.

Regards,
Piotr
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2011, 06:09:26 pm »
Piotr

This thread is all ready three pages long.

And the key point is that if you do not own, an reference DC source.
You have nothing in your hands as comparison point.

And all your current tests haves no point at all. 
If you do not spent money about building something like this ..
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1148.0

or buy this ..
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1032.0

Forget the calibration process. 
 

Offline LightagesTopic starter

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #37 on: June 10, 2011, 10:18:53 pm »
With your offset, it appears that you might be able to remove that offset by adjusting the trimpot. I still have not tried any calibration or adjustment of mine until I have a way of checking things correctly.

Although Kiriakos might be a little blunt, he is correct in that adjusting blindly to something else that is not known to be correct too is just fooling yourself.
 

alm

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2011, 02:16:14 pm »
Adjusting it to a random bench supply may not be a good idea, but these tests clearly show that there's something funny going on. The results of a second DMM connected in parallel show that the source is stable down to at least the 0.001mV.

Kiriakos is clearly in denial if he claims that these tests are worthless. Doing a performance verification with inferior equipment is possible. You will not be able to verify the performance down to the specified accuracy, but where not talking about 0.1% differences here.

Stupid question: they didn't happen to specify the mV accuracy as +140 digits, did they? ;)

I would complain to Conrad and try to get it repaired/replaced, either the calibration is out of whack or it is defective, most likely the latter. In DCV mode, shorting the probes should result in a value very close to zero.
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2011, 06:27:39 pm »
Well alm it is known that I always enjoy one good pillow fight   ;D
And so I will not miss even this one.

I bet that by reading the word Fluke 73, you did melt like an ice cream.
Memories and pride chocked you to the point, so to send at the hospital the fresh low cost one,
instead the old beaten hand held. (condition unknown)

Personally it took me long time in this forum,
to self educate my self about performance verification standards.
And I did spent some cash in the way about getting this chance of even touching the magic stuff.  :)

And today you are coming back to say that all that I need is a cheap LM7805 ?  :D

Today, by looking the active DHL tracking of the Agilent U1272A that comes as freeby,
I had become for an third or fourth time an believer !!!
There is a God out there , helping the ones who shows denial to use the LM7805 as reference standard.   ;)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=3232.0


The pillow fight ended ( Remove your helmets )  ;)
     


 
 

Offline pklawit

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2011, 06:43:54 pm »
Thanks to all for the conclusions/suggestions,

First of all, this is not a new unit, bought on Polish ebay.
I may return it, but the price was quite attractive and I would not be able to buy another
one for similar price. And apart of the mV and temperature it is perfect. Looks like new.

Second of all I thought, that if the problem is only with the offset on the mV range, shorting the probes
and using proper pot to get 0.0 on the display would solve everything, as the offset
seen for 0 and max of the range is the same.

Third of all, I'm working for a big company that has a department  responsible for periodic
calibration of all used meters (the Fluke that I was comparing readings is calibrated by them each year),
and maybe they could help me with the VC-940 calibration, but I would like not to mess every range
and only use the pot responsible for the zero offset on mV range.

There are 5 pots on the board, VR1 to VR5.
VR2 is for setting the upper limit on the mV range. So there are 4 remaining.
Nobody has the schematic of the UT-71 ?

Thanks and greetings,
Piotr
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2011, 07:20:04 pm »
Piotr just answer to me this simple question.
What stopping you from contacting directly UNI-T by email, and request the info ?
At the page 2 , another person did just that, and got plenty of help by the company.


Even so next to every VR there is markings on the PCB .
According to my magic sphere by looking an similar one,
you should have there markings like  
DCV
ACV
ACV0
CAP
  
Just by looking at them, you can tell what its one does.
 

« Last Edit: June 11, 2011, 07:21:58 pm by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Offline pklawit

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2011, 07:23:37 pm »
Look at this :-) :
http://www.uni-trend.com.cn/feedback.asp?yy=%D6%D0%CE%C4&lmm=&lmbs=&page=359

Google translator did great job here:

Moderators Reply to: 2006-12-11 8:47:03
  Hello:
     UT70B drawings have email to you, please find a
     Debugging components in this table is as follows (if no professional calibration equipment, do not secretly debug):
DC V VR1/2K
AC V VR2/10K
? low temperature VR6/1K VR4/3K
? low temperature VR7/1K VR5/3K

UNI-T Customer Service Center


Would be good to have at least such list of VRs for the UT71 series.

Regards,
Piotr
 

Offline pklawit

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2011, 09:29:24 am »
Hi Kiriakos,

Unfortunately there is no any additional info near the pots, just the VR1 - VR5.
I have already emailed Uni-Trend twice - once via email on their WEB page
and second time on their forum. Ok, I will wait a bit longer, maybe they'll respond.

Greetings,
Piotr
 

Offline pklawit

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2011, 07:08:32 pm »
Ok, I will answer my own question, maybe it will be useful for somebody else.
I've found this in the calibration procedure for Voltcraft VC920/940/960:

VR1 - ACA, to set 1,0A current, 60Hz on the 10A range
VR2 - DCV, to set 190mV on the 400mV range
VR3 - ACV, to set 2,0V voltage, 60Hz on the 4V range
VR4 - temperature - to set ambient temperature when probes are shorted
VR5 - ACV, to adjust AC voltage readings less than 50 digits

Unfortunately none of them is responsible for setting the zero-offset on the DC milivolts range.
I hope that on Monday Uni-Trend will respond to my email.

Regards,
Piotr
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2011, 08:04:09 pm »
Piotr I have the impression that you are a bit confused.
Why in earth one DMM with relative function to need an pot so to set the DCV0 ?

Why you trust more one DMM with out relative mode ?

Quote
So, the Voltcraft substracts exactly the 14mV offset, that I have noticed shorting the probes.

It could subtracts as much it needs so bring down any interference measured as voltage at the range of 0mV.
Your old Fluke does not subtract anything.

The only way to test one fresh multimeter are with another fresh one next to it.

I was hoping that some else will jump in so to inform you,
but I did not see any one.  
My prediction is that UNI-T will say the same.
That the setting of DCV to Zero is an automated process , no pot or setting needed.

  
 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 08:05:58 pm by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Offline pklawit

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2011, 08:25:55 am »
Hi Kiriakos,

Well, I just don't think, that setting the DMM to zero on the mV range with the REL function
should be a normal task before each measurement.
In fact the resolution on the Volts range is just 10 times worse than on the mV range:
- on the Volts range when probes are shorted it shows 0,0000 V (so with 0.1mV resolution),
- on the mV range it shows -014,26mV (so 0.01mV resolution)

Why then on the Volts range it goes properly to 0.0000V and on the mV range it shows
-0.01426V?.
I do not have to use REL function to get 0 on the Volts and I think it should be the same on the mV.

And the second problem - the temperature readings - in my opinion it comes exactly from the
zero-offset on the mV range, thus using the REL function on the mV range will not solve
the temperature readings (-360 Celsjus degree - this is a joke I believe).

Piotr

Still waiting
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #47 on: June 13, 2011, 11:43:34 am »
Hi Kiriakos,

Well, I just don't think, that setting the DMM to zero on the mV range with the REL function
should be a normal task before each measurement.


If you do have electrical interference in your test lab or room, yes it is. 
And only the sensitive DMM will detect it.
 

Offline pklawit

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2011, 12:21:55 pm »
I have called UNI-Trend service in Poland.
According to them when probes are shorted, on the mV range meter is allowed to bounce
from -0.02 to +0.02mV. Something like -14mV is unacceptable.
They have told me, that some calibration data like the zero offset are stored in the processor's
memory and can only be changed by connecting programmer to the processor.
In their opinion the memory has been erased or corrupted by electric shock for example.
In Poland they do not have equipment to fix it and the only thing they do is to replace the meter
if still under warranty.
So, I'm returning my to the seller, as there seems to be no chance to get it fixed by simple calibration tricks.

Regards,
Piotr
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: UNI-T UT71E calibration question
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2011, 04:31:48 pm »
I have called UNI-Trend service in Poland.
In their opinion the memory has been erased or corrupted by electric shock for example.

So, I'm returning my to the seller, as there seems to be no chance to get it fixed by simple calibration tricks.

Regards,
Piotr


Do not forget to give a nice red dot to the seller, and write the reason and the DMM model on his feedback.
Your story sounded fishy from the start, but it was not your fault.  :)

I am sorry for this turn out, many kids they sale on ebay their half damaged goods.
Take care. 


 


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