EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: Ampera on April 20, 2018, 06:02:45 am
-
Уитх тхис ниу сервер клустер тхат гниф мовед тхе форумс овер то, тхе форум ноу сеемс то хаве Уникоде суппорт. То тест, И ам тйпинг тхис мессаге фонетикаллй ин сйрилликс, халф бекаузе и консидер ит то бе коол, анд халф бекаузе и уас тоо лазй ин Руссиан класс то леарн анйтхинг елсе. И имагине то нативе Руссиан (ор симилар) спеакерс, тхис лоокс реаллй уеирд.
If I get complaints, and nobody knows what I'm on about, I can put that in Latin glyphs.
🕴️🕴️🕴️🕴️🕴️🕴️
-
Well, this was something to read.
Тест. Русский.
Now we will see all the glory of that Asian spam we are getting from time to time.
-
ʎıʞǝs˙ ʇɥɐʇ ʍɐs ɐuuoʎıuƃ ʇo ɹǝɐp˙
-
Let us just hope that the advent of full UTF-8 support on the forum (Thanks Gnif!) doesn't cause an outbreak of even more incomprehensible garbage produced by the crowd whose proper punctuation to smiley ratio is the same as the tooth to tattoo ratio of some fiddle-playing horror movie hillbilly.
Meantime, it is with great pleasure that I can now say things like: ± 5µV/√Hz at 300°K …
-
L̶̛̈͋̀͛ͥ̃ͬ̐͊͐͡҉͚̥̥͎̠̬͚͉e̖͇̗̠̬͓̫̱̖̗͔͊͋̉̔̍̑̕͡ͅt̨̡̛̪͕̻͖͎̗̞̻̜͕̐̒̊̔̎ͮͫ̊͊̋̍͑̌ͅͅ'̦̭̦̮̯̺̲ͫ̊̒̆̀̚͜͜s̨̧̛͍͈̙̜͇̬̳͈̝̞̼͈̺̋ͭ̇̏ͯ ̛̈́͆ͥ͗̄̀ͣͯ̀͘͏͈̠̱͉̲̰̮̤͕̼̻̰̰̯̤j̨̪̖̝͈̜̠̙̺͂̌̓̀ͦͩ̐̌̆̈̊̈̃́͊ͪͨ͛͟ụ̶̭̳̙͈̪̪̘͚̝̻̤̱̠̭̩͗ͫ̔̇̎͗̓̑ͧͫ̃͒́ͥ͋͛̓̃ͯ̕ͅͅs̢̨̳͙̞̱̬ͫ̽̏̈́ͪ̄̑̀̀ͣͦͯ̚͘͞ţ̺͇̯̞̦̺̰͕͉͖̲̻̫̣̖̳̋͑ͦͣ͊͊̈́ͦ̂̚͘͢ͅ ̵̸̧̨͈̻͇̣ͩ̅͆̈ͦ͐̅͒̒ͫ͑ͫ͗͒̀̚ḫ̴͍̟̤̲̬̗̤̜͐̃͂ͫ̓ͨͣͬ̓o̢̝͎̮̝ͦ͊͋̽̓̀͟͝p̸̛̹̩͇̫̰̪͚͙̰̗̭ͫͨͤͦ̀̒͌͒͘ͅę̴̤̜̤͖̟̳̱͍͚̪̓̍̆ͨ̋ͫͪ̿͒́ͫ̂ͨ̔̚͢ ̸̴̶̨̖͙̟̖̣̭̪̆̍ͭͪͅͅp̓͋͆͏̴̢̮͍͓̪͚͇̲̞̟́e͔̭̗̪͎ͧ̈́͋̇̔͒̾̂̃̑̀́o̢̱̖͔͔̟̘͎̗̗͍͙̰͎̝͇̣͔̟͊ͧ̈͊̍͠ͅp͚̤̳͎̻̥̼̰ͭͩ͂̎̉́ͮ̐̇ͨ̈́̈ͧͣ͊̎ͦ̓͠ͅl̵̶̯̙̥̩͙͓̝̗̰̲̩͉͕̲̹̬̻̮͒ͭͥͭ̋̃̀͘e̷̡̨͕̪͙͚̠̬͙͕̰̗͎̻͓͓̰̳̗̝͂̆̏͋̊͌ͧͯ̔ͫͦͨ̍̐͜͠ ͎̯̮̯̦̘͓̝͔͇͇̬͖̼͖̼ͯ̈̀̊ͣͥ̿ͣ͒̈́͒̓ͩ̾ͤ͢͡w̙̺͎̖͙̥̮̜ͧ͌̅̽ͫͦͧ́͜͡͠o̡̢̘̼͖̟̙̤̫̠͔ͩ̽̂͐ͭͨ͊ͣ̔͐̀ͮ̾ͬ͒͝n̑͌ͥ̓͆͒̂͌̈́ͤ̉ͧ͐̕͏̙̗̙̥̬̬̞̺̘͔̀͝'͖̩̤̫̭̝̜̭̓ͤ͑͋̕͜͟͞t̶̵̫̖̙͈̖͉̠͎͍̹̫̺̥̙̜̲͉̥̃ͤ͗͠ ̷̫̣̺̟͕̣͈̺̮̣ͦ͑ͩ̆̿͒̋͊̉ͬ̏̊͂̕̕̕͠s̹̱̭̪̦̭͖̪̬̖̥̰̜̤ͣ́́͂̍͗̅͋͊́̚͠͞t̷̶̨̡̞̠̬̣̲̹̮̠̝̖̗̬̫̩̫͍͖̦̤͂ͪ͐ͨ͐̀a̶̲̦͈̝̳̟̳͓̗̙͔͙̱ͧͯ͗̿̀̕͡͞ͅr̶̴̡͓̩͍̜̮͙̦̂ͫ̃̔ͦ̎͗͊ͮͬ͞t̢̡̙̮͓̰͇̣̤͚͓̗̮̝͈̏̅̈́̃͊ͧ͑̏̑̐̅̃ ̩͈͉̹̻̠̾̊̾͐ͥ͌ͩ̑̊̾̈ͫͤͯ͟͡ͅp͋́̐̂͋̔͑̆ͬͫͨ͊ͭ̃̆̚̕͏̷͎͕͚͍̯̯̲͕̣̳̹̭̯̙ͅơ̧̘͎͎̞͉ͬͨͫͥ̓͂̏́ͨ̂͘̕s͖̤̩̼͉͍̘̖͕̳͍̩̠͓̬̆͑̃ͩͪ̏̍̌̈́͐̀̀t̵̹̻͕̰̯̯̺̗͕̠̣̮̭͔̜̋͗̿̿͊̚i̵̢͔̩̘̗̤̞̩̭̖̤̥͓̟͗̎̉̂̃ͦ̍ͥ̿͐̃̿ͪͪ̅̃̆́͘ǹ̵̎̓̃̚͟͟͏̘̖̤͖̗̹̮̫̺̤̝̜̦͕͔̤̦g̖̜̯̲̬̟͈̜̑̔̓ͣ̊̎ͯͦ̇̏̄͐̄ͮ̿̏́̀͢ ̴̷͇̱̝̬̝̞͉̘͍͖̲̫̥̻̳͈̬͒̈̐ͣ̄̆͋ͪ̎ͣ̆͛̿ͣͣͩ͆́c̵̛̞͙̞̹ͧ̂ͤͮͥ̀̚̕r̷̢̻̯̯̤̓͑͋͌͋͋ͤ͂͢ā̵̮̥̮͙͈̐͑ͥͦ̈ͭ̽̀p̴̵̡͙͖̳̳̭͈̰͉͍̗̗̪͙͓̟̩͉ͬ̅̈̄ͭ͡ͅ ̴̨̱͖̝̪̠̟͕͆ͫͪ̆͘l͍̲͓̻̹̼̖̘̬̩͓̻̖̘͎̩̩ͨ̓̍ͪͣ̏̄̕͟͝͠į̵̯̙̼͓̻̻̪͓̰̳̟̱̲̖͕̣̀͛͊̓̿̌̐̋̊ͪ̓̉́̈́̂ͪ̓͐̕͢͞ķ̸̸̶̯̼͎̙͕̯̹̤͉̱̼̦͚̰͕̖̺̙̞͂͆̆̿͛͗͐̔̿ͨ́̚ę̛̰̹͚̮̠̗͚͇͊͂͂ͩͭ́͂ͫ̀͢͡ ̛̄̏͌ͯ͑ͮͪ̀ͧ̓ͤ͏̷͕̘̫͙̥̺͓͔̖̩͎̞̯̖̘̯̰̬t̴̙̞̼̞̜̭̼͖͎͎̳̓̆͛ͤ̈́͂̑ͫ̕͞ͅh̶͓̣̥̫͓̜͂͂ͮͬ̑͢ͅḭ̴̧͖͉̠̫͕̮͓̜̿̇̍͊̑ͣͭ̔̌̉̈̊ͥ́͢͞ş̦̞̳͙̦̬͔͎͓̖̹͉̺̈́͆̓͌͐ͪͩ̑ͭͭ̓͆͋ͬ̈́̑ͩͦ̓͟
(just testing) ,,,
🚑 🚔 🚗 ✈
-
Уитх тхис ниу сервер клустер тхат гниф мовед тхе форумс овер то, тхе форум ноу сеемс то хаве Уникоде суппорт. То тест, И ам тйпинг тхис мессаге фонетикаллй ин сйрилликс, халф бекаузе и консидер ит то бе коол, анд халф бекаузе и уас тоо лазй ин Руссиан класс то леарн анйтхинг елсе. И имагине то нативе Руссиан (ор симилар) спеакерс, тхис лоокс реаллй уеирд.
Frankly this looks hilarious :-DD
-
Is there a reason we can't stick with ASCII? ASCII works everywhere, it's also compatibel with software that expects UTF-8.
Some people don't understand +/-5uV? It really needs to be written like ±5µV? Why not degr. instead of °?
It avoids all kinds of errors.
-
Is there a reason we can't stick with ASCII? ASCII works everywhere, it's also compatibel with software that expects UTF-8.
Some people don't understand +/-5uV? It really needs to be written like ±5µV? Why not degr. instead of °?
It avoids all kinds of errors.
The database can be ASCII, etc... but how should it handle when people post Unicode characters?
Even things as stupid as encoded double quotes can vary between locales.
IMO it is best to cater for all possible scenarios and just use utf8 encoding (btw, we are using utf8mb4, which covers everything).
-
Is there a reason we can't stick with ASCII? ASCII works everywhere, it's also compatibel with software that expects UTF-8.
Some people don't understand +/-5uV? It really needs to be written like ±5µV? Why not degr. instead of °?
It avoids all kinds of errors.
This caused so much pain in the ass all these years. Someone asks about buying some obscure part. You cannot post search terms needed to find that on taobao. Or one cannot type a name of some Russian component for others be able to search for. You can post a picture with text, but it's pretty much useless as unknowing person won't be able to type that as characters are not familiar.
-
Is there a reason we can't stick with ASCII? ASCII works everywhere, it's also compatibel with software that expects UTF-8.
Why can't we stick with horse-drawn transport. Horses work everywhere, etc. etc.
This is a highly international electronics forum so it hits in two places.
The international nature immediately hits things like a recent thread where people where trying to swap names for components in various languages and a Polish guy couldn't type the Polish names properly because ASCII doesn't include the Polish alphabet.
It is a right pain in the butt trying to refer to the everyday mathematics of electronics when you have to spell out things like alpha, beta, square root, sigma, ohm, tau, zeta etc. or have to drop into the weird world of \$ \LaTeX \$ (via mathjax).
-
简体中文
繁體中文
-
ເປັນຫຍັງທ່ານຈຶ່ງພະຍາຍາມແປພາສານີ້ ?
-
ເປັນຫຍັງທ່ານຈຶ່ງພະຍາຍາມແປພາສານີ້ ?
ເນື່ອງຈາກວ່າຂ້າພະເຈົ້າຢາກຮູ້ວ່າສິ່ງທີ່ມັນເວົ້າ!
-
ເປັນຫຍັງທ່ານຈຶ່ງພະຍາຍາມແປພາສານີ້ ?
ເນື່ອງຈາກວ່າຂ້າພະເຈົ້າຢາກຮູ້ວ່າສິ່ງທີ່ມັນເວົ້າ!
ແລະທ່ານມີຄວາມສຸກໃນປັດຈຸບັນ?
-
Will be there any new rules about how to use unicode or we will have "private" conversations between members from same country inside topics?
-
Well we don't at the moment, and probably 90% of the non-english speakers on here have languages with representations in Latin scripts. The only people I've regularly seen having a conversation in a non-english language are the Dutch. A non-problem I think, once people have got over the novelty of speaking in Thai or transliterating English to unfamiliar scripts.
-
Well we don't at the moment, and probably 90% of the non-english speakers on here have languages with representations in Latin scripts. The only people I've regularly seen having a conversation in a non-english language are the Dutch. A non-problem I think, once people have got over the novelty of speaking in Thai or transliterating English to unfamiliar scripts.
Aye, I don't think Unicode support is going to be a problem.
Also, ASCII? Really? Everybody knows that the real shit is with EBCDIC!
-
... and probably 90% of the non-english speakers on here ...
Electronic engineers can at least read and write basic english. How else are they supposed to read datasheets?
So, in the end ASCII is enough on an electronics forum.
-
... and probably 90% of the non-english speakers on here ...
Electronic engineers can at least read and write basic english. How else are they supposed to read datasheets?
So, in the end ASCII is enough on an electronics forum.
I think you'll find that most people here disagree with this.
Many people here have pushing longing for uni code support on this forum for a long time. The main reason I like it is for the Ω symbol, which is very important for an electronics forum. The µ character has been supported for a long time. I don't know why, since it isn't a standard ASCII glyph. I think mathematical symbols such as √ are also good. There's LaTeX maths support, but it gets blocked when I'm at work by the firewall.
If you don't like Unicode, then you don't have to use it.
-
The µ character has been supported for a long time. I don't know why, since it isn't a standard ASCII glyph.
Because it was a superset of ASCII, not ASCII. Probably something like CP-1252 or ISO 8859-15.
-
What does good ole google translate say about this? it translates to :
Uith this niu server cluster that gnif moved the forums over to, the forum nou seems to have Unikode support. To test, I am sending this message to fonetikallj in sjrilliks, half bekauze and consider it to be kool, and half bekauze and uas too lazj in Russian class to learn anjthing else. I imagine native Russian (or similar) speakers, this looks reallue ueird.
Уитх тхис ниу сервер клустер тхат гниф мовед тхе форумс овер то, тхе форум ноу сеемс то хаве Уникоде суппорт. То тест, И ам тйпинг тхис мессаге фонетикаллй ин сйрилликс, халф бекаузе и консидер ит то бе коол, анд халф бекаузе и уас тоо лазй ин Руссиан класс то леарн анйтхинг елсе. И имагине то нативе Руссиан (ор симилар) спеакерс, тхис лоокс реаллй уеирд.
-
... and probably 90% of the non-english speakers on here ...
Electronic engineers can at least read and write basic english. How else are they supposed to read datasheets?
Not all datasheets are in English by default. Back in the old days French and German companies made datasheets in their own language because most people in those countries couldn't understand English. Nowadays the same is very true for China and (probably) Japan.
-
Meantime, it is with great pleasure that I can now say things like: ± 5µV/√Hz at 300°K …
...and then you will get pedants pointing out that it is not proper to use the degree symbol with Kelvin, so it should just be: ± 5µV/√Hz at 300 K
-
... and probably 90% of the non-english speakers on here ...
Electronic engineers can at least read and write basic english. How else are they supposed to read datasheets?
So, in the end ASCII is enough on an electronics forum.
But at least it means that Rüdiger and Phillipé can spell their names correctly and the rest of us can enjoy a little concise mathematical notation. I don't know why you're so determined to be such a stuck-in-the-mud about it. I suspect that you've probably got another ℵ0 reasons why it's a bad idea (little mathematical joke there). Oh — those hyphens remind me — it also allows the typographically minded of us to enjoy a proper em dash.
-
± 5µV/√Hz at 300 K
WTF where did the ± come from !
-
Meantime, it is with great pleasure that I can now say things like: ± 5µV/√Hz at 300°K …
...and then you will get pedants pointing out that it is not proper to use the degree symbol with Kelvin, so it should just be: ± 5µV/√Hz at 300 K
It was a pain having to put 0.5 rather than √. The degree symbol was possible by using lower case o with a subscipt, but it didn't look as quite good as the real thing: see if you can spt the difference: 360o vs 360°?
-
± and ° were already supported as they are part of Latin-1 or whatever codepage smf defaults to.
Also, any serious engineering formulas already required MathJax.
-
± and ° were already supported as they are part of Latin-1 or whatever codepage smf defaults to.
I didn't know that. I suppose that was another problem: it wasn't obvious to most people what characters were supported and what weren't. One couldn't be sure whether they would get the true character or just a question mark.
-
Was the solution much different to my old sugestion? (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/suggestions/forum-is-on-mysql-should-be-on-postgresql-for-maximum-robustness/msg929960/#msg929960)
Lets try an Ω while I'm here :-+
-
What does good ole google translate say about this? it translates to :
Uith this niu server cluster that gnif moved the forums over to, the forum nou seems to have Unikode support. To test, I am sending this message to fonetikallj in sjrilliks, half bekauze and consider it to be kool, and half bekauze and uas too lazj in Russian class to learn anjthing else. I imagine native Russian (or similar) speakers, this looks reallue ueird.
Уитх тхис ниу сервер клустер тхат гниф мовед тхе форумс овер то, тхе форум ноу сеемс то хаве Уникоде суппорт. То тест, И ам тйпинг тхис мессаге фонетикаллй ин сйрилликс, халф бекаузе и консидер ит то бе коол, анд халф бекаузе и уас тоо лазй ин Руссиан класс то леарн анйтхинг елсе. И имагине то нативе Руссиан (ор симилар) спеакерс, тхис лоокс реаллй уеирд.
Google Translate is only of partial help here, because I'm not speaking another language. It's English using the Russian Cyrillic alphabet. Google Translate is just using a phonetic transliteration, and because of my need to get creative with the alphabet, with it not having sounds like þ and ƿ, it comes out looking strange.
To speakers of a Cyrillic-using language like Russian, Ukrainian, Macedonian (there are differences, so it is probably not completely legible to many) it's, or at least I hope it is, a funny play on the languages.
-
± and ° were already supported as they are part of Latin-1 or whatever codepage smf defaults to.
I didn't know that. I suppose that was another problem: it wasn't obvious to most people what characters were supported and what weren't. One couldn't be sure whether they would get the true character or just a question mark.
A few weeks back I tried to solve that problem for myself. I tried all the possibly useful characters that where a meta-key away on my keyboard and checked what posted and came back with the same encoding.
The characters I tried were: π∏µΩ∂∆√–≠≈∑∫°˚±…
And the ones that survived the round trip were: µ°±–…
-
Let us just hope that the advent of full UTF-8 support on the forum (Thanks Gnif!) doesn't cause an outbreak of even more incomprehensible garbage produced by the crowd whose proper punctuation to smiley ratio is the same as the tooth to tattoo ratio of some fiddle-playing horror movie hillbilly.
Meantime, it is with great pleasure that I can now say things like: ± 5µV/√Hz at 300°K …
That was possible a year ago...
-
Let us just hope that the advent of full UTF-8 support on the forum (Thanks Gnif!) doesn't cause an outbreak of even more incomprehensible garbage produced by the crowd whose proper punctuation to smiley ratio is the same as the tooth to tattoo ratio of some fiddle-playing horror movie hillbilly.
Meantime, it is with great pleasure that I can now say things like: ± 5µV/√Hz at 300°K …
That was possible a year ago...
As minimum, square root wasn't possible. Also I gave up on using any symbols. It's pretty much pointless to make a post just to figure out which 10% of them will work, as preview would show everything correctly. Then edit to redo everything, nothing but waste of time.
-
I mean, regardless of what you say, you could have always taken a screencap of the text and, if you were very clever, embedded it into the text of the page, which would be seamless some of the time on some versions of the forum site.
This, however, definitely makes text input way nicer. It's only rarely that I face this problem, but it comes up every so often.
-
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Thank you for your hard work, admins :)
Tim
-
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
THIS WAS A MISTAKE
BURN THE FORUMS, THERE IS NO FIXING THIS :scared: :scared: :scared:
-
Not all datasheets are in English by default.
Most of them are. So, again, how can an electronics engineer do his job if can't read basic english?
-
So your telling me that EEs around the world in Japan, France, Spain, Germany, Russia, every single one of them has to and can speak basic English. What about in the former Soviet Union? There weren't any English datasheets then. What about in places like China, where the are almost a billion native Mandarin speakers.
-
± 5µV/√Hz at 300 K
WTF where did the ± come from !
:-DD
-
So your telling me that EEs around the world in Japan, France, Spain, Germany, Russia, every single one of them has to and can speak basic English.
No, I didn't say that...
-
"Most of them are. So, again, how can an electronics engineer do his job if can't read basic english?"
How can an EE do his job if he can't read basic English.
I don't know what you intended, but in the English I was taught, saying that all EEs can't do their job if they can't read basic English, which is what you said, means exactly that. Every single EE, around the world, as you stated, without any additional localization or clarifications, must read basic English.
-
Every single EE, around the world, as you stated, without any additional localization or clarifications, must read basic English.
Practically, yes. How else can they do their job?
-
Every single EE, around the world, as you stated, without any additional localization or clarifications, must read basic English.
Practically, yes. How else can they do their job?
By reading datasheets that are printed in another language, like Mandarin.
-
TBH, I don't remember any EE engineer I've ever met that couldn't understand English. Most of them can also speak and write the language.
-
Every single EE, around the world, as you stated, without any additional localization or clarifications, must read basic English.
Practically, yes. How else can they do their job?
By reading datasheets that are printed in another language, like Mandarin.
Most of the EEs in China never touch anything but Mandarin text books and documentation. Japan is similar. Most of them know some English, but only a small percentage know English well enough to be able to cope with an English book.
-
It's not only about the English datasheets. It's the CAD/CAM software, and computers, too.
Until just years ago, computers were all English (without the Unicode havoc >:D ), and EE CAD/CAM tools were teach in schools, together with programming classes, which were English, too. That is why, in EE Universities we have had English classes, which were not optional. Instead, there was an option to choose between beginner or advanced English.
About the amount of English in datasheets, I bet the datasheet vocabulary is about 100 words, or so. Same for programming.
-
Seriously, what are you on about? Localization has been widespread for 30 years.
In the classic MacOS, German, French, and Italian versions of the system were available only a couple years after the platform was announced.
KanjiTalk was released in 1986! WorldScript, with CJK, Hebrew, Arabic, etc, was released in 1993 with System 7.1.
I know Windows had something similar, but not the exact dates. It certainly existed by the Windows 3.1 timeframe (1992).
-
Localization available, yes, widespread used, not so sure. At least not here, in Romania. While we have officially Romanian keyboards, basically nobody is using them. Special characters in writing? Nobody cares. In fact, I've seen people in their 20's or 30's writing handwritten text on paper without using the Romanian diacritics, like they were handwriting with ASCII ^-^, which is pretty weird if you ask me.
Localization was used mostly by occasional computer users. It was, and it is still weird. The localized translations are hilarious and misleading. Then, it was the Windows legacy. As opposed to Linux, Windows does not have had a mechanism to localize dialogues and software messages. I don't know if Windows 7/10 have a localization mechanism embedded into OS, but until XP, I didn't has one. Mac/Apples were more like a curiosity here.
There might be other parts of the world where localization is used, but here and for EE, not so much. In fact, at all.
I remember when we were doing some automation for the power grid. The requirement was that all the messages, buttons and dialogues must be in Romanian. Well, it was a pain to translate it, almost impossible. For example, there were sentences when various messages were composed using parts of a sentence. Like "There are" and "no errors". This example is trivial, but some sentences were really tricky, composed by 2-3 parts, and could not be assembled in Ro by the same logic as in En. The phrase structure was different.
Well, eventually we manage to translate that software (it was from General Electric, so native English we could say), but then guess what: we start deploying the translated software all over the country, then when we arrived to the North East side, many engineers in the power stations were less proficient in Romanian, they were speaking Hungarian, so they almost couldn't understand the Romanian translations. Yet, they were proficient in English.
Localization is for occasional computer users, heavy users use US English, at least here, where I live. All the company I worked for, I mean ALL of them, were using English in computers and CAD/CAM, and some of those companies were using English in Emails and meetings, too.
-
Every single EE, around the world, as you stated, without any additional localization or clarifications, must read basic English.
Practically, yes. How else can they do their job?
By reading datasheets that are printed in another language, like Mandarin.
Where do you find them at, for example, the website of Texas Instruments?
-
Every single EE, around the world, as you stated, without any additional localization or clarifications, must read basic English.
Practically, yes. How else can they do their job?
By reading datasheets that are printed in another language, like Mandarin.
Where do you find them at, for example, the website of Texas Instruments?
http://www.ti.com.cn/product/cn/MSP430FR2000/technicaldocuments (http://www.ti.com.cn/product/cn/MSP430FR2000/technicaldocuments)
That took, like, three seconds.
-
The big problem with unicode is that it's become a fragmented standard, with numerous different implementations. Worst is Microsoft Word's use of characters that are only available in 32-bit unicode. For no sensible purpose either, the characters in question are just a fancy style of double quotes. So for the sake of this stupid piece of frippery they've created a problem for everyone.
On the Web, pages tend to use UTF-8 but Javascript only understands UTF-16, and PHP basically doesn't understand Unicode. So, when you try to do string comparisons on Web data the outcome is basically pot luck.
A problem you frequently meet is that of unicode filenames on websites, where the file can be saved to disk but cannot be opened by the associated application.
-
Well in all instances we are covered now, the database is using utf8mb4 (4-Byte UTF-8 Unicode Encoding) which covers every possible encoding.
-
Nice work, but why bother the effort?
If the answer is "just to display +/- like symbols", then it doesn't makes much sense, IMO. It's an English forum, mainly for electronics related topics of EE. I don't think EEvblog users have difficulties understanding what uV stands for. Probably most of the users won't waste time looking how to type the appropriate symbol anyway.
I think the real answer is because I can, and because it is cool to have it. Long story short, I'm not a fan of Unicode. It comes with a lot of problems, but no major benefits for English.
-
Nice work, but why bother the effort?
If the answer is "just to display +/- like symbols", then it doesn't makes much sense, IMO. It's an English forum, mainly for electronics related topics of EE. I don't think EEvblog users have difficulties understanding what uV stands for. Probably most of the users won't waste time looking how to type the appropriate symbol anyway.
I think the real answer is because I can, and because it is cool to have it. Long story short, I'm not a fan of Unicode. It comes with a lot of problems, but no major benefits for English.
The problem was worse than that: at best, 7-bit ASCII was supported, not even a traditional full 8-bit encoding like CP437 or ISO-8859-1. Extended characters are commonly encountered: besides the \$\Omega\$ hack which we no longer need on the toolbar*, even just simple things like accents ("naïve" makes it into the English dictionary), let alone foreign language excerpts which were completely impossible to quote here. It's hard to discuss something, even if the discussion is in unaccented English, when the source is not. :o
*But, speaking of which, since we still have jsLaTeX here, I wonder if we could add a button or two, e.g., "insert inline math", "insert display math", and it's just a dialog where you enter your code. (But preferably, the dialog could also have a link to the code reference, or some helpers or such -- this could get quite deep quite quickly of course, and that immediately moves beyond the capability of an alert dialog, to a full HTML-CSS popover workbox or the like, and...) Just something simple like that, I think would help improve its use. :)
Tim
-
Nice work, but why bother the effort?
If the answer is "just to display +/- like symbols", then it doesn't makes much sense, IMO. It's an English forum, mainly for electronics related topics of EE. I don't think EEvblog users have difficulties understanding what uV stands for. Probably most of the users won't waste time looking how to type the appropriate symbol anyway.
I think the real answer is because I can, and because it is cool to have it. Long story short, I'm not a fan of Unicode. It comes with a lot of problems, but no major benefits for English.
Yeah it's certainly "better" when thousands of people constantly jump through hoops and figure out workarounds instead of fixing the problem at it's core a single time :palm:. And it's not nearly limited to +/-.
-
Every single EE, around the world, as you stated, without any additional localization or clarifications, must read basic English.
Practically, yes. How else can they do their job?
By reading datasheets that are printed in another language, like Mandarin.
Where do you find them at, for example, the website of Texas Instruments?
http://www.ti.com.cn/product/cn/MSP430FR2000/technicaldocuments (http://www.ti.com.cn/product/cn/MSP430FR2000/technicaldocuments)
That took, like, three seconds.
Wow, I didn't know that. Impressive! What about Microchip, STMicroelectronics, Maxim Integrated and Nexperia?
-
We weren't even using ASCII, as old English characters like þ, ð, and æ I know worked.
Not to mention why are you even complaining? It's not like it affects you, or anybody else in any significant way. Complaining about the fact that you have more hardware characters to work with is like complaining that you hate the typewriter your using because you can do 90 WPM on it and it doesn't jam, whereas your old one jammed at 30.
This is an English EE forum, but we still can find use for more characters. The upgrade has been done, and by the sound and time of it, I don't think it was that much of an extra hassle.
Another thing. I actually found it impressive that Ti had Chinese spec sheets on their website, considering they are out of Texas. Just take a look at how many electronics companies there are in China and Japan. You can see that there are datasheets in other languages, if they are being made in other languages, there must be EEs reading them.
-
Wow, I didn't know that. Impressive! What about Microchip, STMicroelectronics, Maxim Integrated and Nexperia?
I suggest you answer your own question by following the same steps I did:
1: Go to their website
2: Pick a random part
3: Look for a langauge option
-
Wow, I didn't know that. Impressive! What about Microchip, STMicroelectronics, Maxim Integrated and Nexperia?
I suggest you answer your own question by following the same steps I did:
1: Go to their website
2: Pick a random part
3: Look for a langauge option
Ok I checked the Microchip website: No language options, neither for the datasheets or the website.
STMicroelectronics: website can be set to chinese or japanese. Datasheets remain in english only.
Maxim Integrated: website can be set to chinese or japanese. Datasheets remain in english only.
Nexperia: website can be set to chinese. Datasheets remain in english only.
So, electronic engineers don't need to be able to read basic english? They simply avoid the above manufacturers (and probably others as well)?
-
Wow, I didn't know that. Impressive! What about Microchip, STMicroelectronics, Maxim Integrated and Nexperia?
I suggest you answer your own question by following the same steps I did:
1: Go to their website
2: Pick a random part
3: Look for a langauge option
Ok I checked the Microchip website: No language options, neither for the datasheets or the website.
STMicroelectronics: website can be set to chinese or japanese. Datasheets remain in english only.
Maxim Integrated: website can be set to chinese or japanese. Datasheets remain in english only.
Nexperia: website can be set to chinese. Datasheets remain in english only.
So, electronic engineers don't need to be able to read basic english? They simply avoid the above manufacturers (and probably others as well)?
Carol (I've anglicized your name as that would seem to suit your sensibilities more), what is it that you hope to get, to achieve, with this line of argument?
-
Wow, I didn't know that. Impressive! What about Microchip, STMicroelectronics, Maxim Integrated and Nexperia?
I suggest you answer your own question by following the same steps I did:
1: Go to their website
2: Pick a random part
3: Look for a langauge option
Ok I checked the Microchip website: No language options, neither for the datasheets or the website.
STMicroelectronics: website can be set to chinese or japanese. Datasheets remain in english only.
Maxim Integrated: website can be set to chinese or japanese. Datasheets remain in english only.
Nexperia: website can be set to chinese. Datasheets remain in english only.
So, electronic engineers don't need to be able to read basic english? They simply avoid the above manufacturers (and probably others as well)?
Carol (I've anglicized your name as that would seem to suit your sensibilities more), what is it that you hope to get, to achieve, with this line of argument?
Originally, it was a reply to the reply of TwoOfFive who stated that electronic engineers can still do their job when they are not able to read
basic english: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/unicode/msg1487445/#msg1487445 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/unicode/msg1487445/#msg1487445)
-
Which is true. There are non-English datasheets in the world. To my knowledge, most of that technical writing is done by EEs, so if they can all magically understand English, why do Chinese datasheets exist?
Not to mention, just because those specific, likely US/Europe oriented websites don't have their datasheets in another language, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I bet you that in order for an EE company to be taken seriously, they have to release datasheets in Mandarin.
Your logic is worse than Jeremy Clarkson's.
-
Which is true. There are non-English datasheets in the world. To my knowledge, most of that technical writing is done by EEs, so if they can all magically understand English, why do Chinese datasheets exist?
Not to mention, just because those specific, likely US/Europe oriented websites don't have their datasheets in another language, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I bet you that in order for an EE company to be taken seriously, they have to release datasheets in Mandarin.
Your logic is worse than Jeremy Clarkson's.
Probably the situation is getting slowly better for chinese engineers.
Maybe in the future an EE only needs to be able to read basic english or basic mandarin. Who knows.
What about EE's in Europe (apart from the UK ofcourse), should they be able to read basic english?
What about EE's in Mexico and South-America? Russia? The Middle-East?
You think EE's don't need to be able to read basic english?
-
Originally, it was a reply to the reply of TwoOfFive who stated that electronic engineers can still do their job when they are not able to read
basic english: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/unicode/msg1487445/#msg1487445 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/unicode/msg1487445/#msg1487445)
Which is true. There are non-English datasheets in the world. To my knowledge, most of that technical writing is done by EEs, so if they can all magically understand English, why do Chinese datasheets exist?
TwoOfFive probably hasn't seen the world much. Anyone you meet in a professional context from any part of the world will have some competence or fluency in English. English is the international language of communication.
Trust me, I have decades of professional experience working as an engineer, and everyone I have worked with from anywhere, be it Asia, Europe, Middle East, Africa, South America, anywhere in the world, they all have conversed naturally in English, both spoken and written. It may be unfair they have to do this when native English speakers get a free ride, but it is how it is.
-
It may be unfair they have to do this when native English speakers get a free ride, but it is how it is.
One language has to win - right now it's English.
-
It may be unfair they have to do this when native English speakers get a free ride, but it is how it is.
One language has to win - right now it's English.
As a 'Murican who only speaks 'Murican, I'm thankful for this. :D
Not that I'm completely unworldly; I did study French for four years in school. But where did that get me? Nulle part!
-
Originally, it was a reply to the reply of TwoOfFive who stated that electronic engineers can still do their job when they are not able to read
basic english: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/unicode/msg1487445/#msg1487445 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/unicode/msg1487445/#msg1487445)
Which is true. There are non-English datasheets in the world. To my knowledge, most of that technical writing is done by EEs, so if they can all magically understand English, why do Chinese datasheets exist?
TwoOfFive probably hasn't seen the world much. Anyone you meet in a professional context from any part of the world will have some competence or fluency in English. English is the international language of communication.
Trust me, I have decades of professional experience working as an engineer, and everyone I have worked with from anywhere, be it Asia, Europe, Middle East, Africa, South America, anywhere in the world, they all have conversed naturally in English, both spoken and written. It may be unfair they have to do this when native English speakers get a free ride, but it is how it is.
By absolutely no means get me wrong, I will concede that the majority may have some English knowledge, but there must be some groups of EEs that don't. Considering there are only 1.5 billion English speakers in the world, I find it hard to believe that entire 6 billion person group does not have any EEs in it.
If we want to talk about what language will win in the end, we all know it's going to be Cornish. The widespread acceptance of the language and it's mass appeal makes me think that it's current speaker base of only 500 will be completely temporary.
-
Ok I checked the Microchip website: No language options, neither for the datasheets or the website.
http://www.microchip.co.jp/download/index.php?Mode=4&CategoryID=08ff3e00bf7fedc9fd6adb0aa9a3499b55a4aff3 (http://www.microchip.co.jp/download/index.php?Mode=4&CategoryID=08ff3e00bf7fedc9fd6adb0aa9a3499b55a4aff3)
-
What about EE's in Mexico and South-America? Russia? The Middle-East?
Do you realize there are tons of components with names using Cyrillic and datasheets in Russian only? In the past you couldn't write such part number properly, and adding picture did not help much as people wouldn't be able to type them in the search anyway. Say, ЭКР1568ХА2 or КТ361Б, even P and X are not what you may think. They are completely different letters and same looking Latin letters won't work for search.
-
It may be unfair they have to do this when native English speakers get a free ride, but it is how it is.
One language has to win - right now it's English.
If you count native and non native speakers together, English and Mandarin Chinese are on par. As of native speakers, Mandarin wins by factor of 2.5.
-
If you count native and non native speakers together, English and Mandarin Chinese are on par. As of native speakers, Mandarin wins by factor of 2.5.
But that isn't the question. If engineers from different countries with different languages meet, or exchange emails, or hold telephone calls, they converse in English, not Chinese...
-
If you count native and non native speakers together, English and Mandarin Chinese are on par. As of native speakers, Mandarin wins by factor of 2.5.
But that isn't the question. If engineers from different countries with different languages meet, or exchange emails, or hold telephone calls, they converse in English, not Chinese...
The fact is there is too much stuff available in non English only which was never intended for English speakers. And time to time people ask for help or just want to discuss that. If you think that all world spins around English, you are wrong.
-
Trust me, I have decades of professional experience working as an engineer, and everyone I have worked with from anywhere, be it Asia, Europe, Middle East, Africa, South America, anywhere in the world, they all have conversed naturally in English, both spoken and written. It may be unfair they have to do this when native English speakers get a free ride, but it is how it is.
What you are talking about is confirmation bias. Sure you were taking with people who speak english to some extent. Because those who don't won't speak/work with you, to begin with.
-
Ok I checked the Microchip website: No language options, neither for the datasheets or the website.
http://www.microchip.co.jp/download/index.php?Mode=4&CategoryID=08ff3e00bf7fedc9fd6adb0aa9a3499b55a4aff3 (http://www.microchip.co.jp/download/index.php?Mode=4&CategoryID=08ff3e00bf7fedc9fd6adb0aa9a3499b55a4aff3)
Good catch!
-
What about EE's in Mexico and South-America? Russia? The Middle-East?
Do you realize there are tons of components with names using Cyrillic and datasheets in Russian only? In the past you couldn't write such part number properly, and adding picture did not help much as people wouldn't be able to type them in the search anyway. Say, ЭКР1568ХА2 or КТ361Б, even P and X are not what you may think. They are completely different letters and same looking Latin letters won't work for search.
How does that help an EE in Mexico? Or Brazil?
-
What about EE's in Mexico and South-America? Russia? The Middle-East?
Do you realize there are tons of components with names using Cyrillic and datasheets in Russian only? In the past you couldn't write such part number properly, and adding picture did not help much as people wouldn't be able to type them in the search anyway. Say, ЭКР1568ХА2 or КТ361Б, even P and X are not what you may think. They are completely different letters and same looking Latin letters won't work for search.
How does that help an EE in Mexico? Or Brazil?
Simply. Someone acquired Russian made device which needs repair (I've seen many cases of this). That someone has two choices, ask for help to find the components and documentation, just typing component name in Russian is already a great help. Second choice is to forget about the repair.
-
What about EE's in Mexico and South-America? Russia? The Middle-East?
Do you realize there are tons of components with names using Cyrillic and datasheets in Russian only? In the past you couldn't write such part number properly, and adding picture did not help much as people wouldn't be able to type them in the search anyway. Say, ЭКР1568ХА2 or КТ361Б, even P and X are not what you may think. They are completely different letters and same looking Latin letters won't work for search.
How does that help an EE in Mexico? Or Brazil?
Simply. Someone acquired Russian made device which needs repair (I've seen many cases of this). That someone has two choices, ask for help to find the components and documentation, just typing component name in Russian is already a great help. Second choice is to forget about the repair.
I see. And what about electronic engineers who actually design stuff? Should they be able to read basic english?
Because that is what I intended to ask.
-
I see. And what about electronic engineers who actually design stuff? Should they be able to read basic english?
Because that is what I intended to ask.
If it is Russian engineer who is designing military stuff, I perfectly see having no issue without a knowledge of English. In any case, I've seen many (actually most) fairly intelligent people there who either don't know English at all or know very poorly.
-
What you are talking about is confirmation bias. Sure you were taking with people who speak english to some extent. Because those who don't won't speak/work with you, to begin with.
It may also be because I am not an EE. I work in a branch of engineering that involves lots of international business dealings and world-wide travel. English is the lingua franca of international commerce. If one of my German colleagues meets with one of my French colleagues, they will speak English together. Similarly with my Japanese colleagues, my Chinese colleagues, my Latin American colleagues. It is how the world works. People will of course switch to Chinese if they are both comfortable with the language, otherwise they will converse in English.
-
What you are talking about is confirmation bias. Sure you were taking with people who speak english to some extent. Because those who don't won't speak/work with you, to begin with.
It may also be because I am not an EE. I work in a branch of engineering that involves lots of international business dealings and world-wide travel. English is the lingua franca of international commerce. If one of my German colleagues meets with one of my French colleagues, they will speak English together. Similarly with my Japanese colleagues, my Chinese colleagues, my Latin American colleagues. It is how the world works. People will of course switch to Chinese if they are both comfortable with the language, otherwise they will converse in English.
If you meet some average Joe in Japan, China or even Russia, especially outside of major cities, you'll have pretty slim chance to have even barely meaningful talk in English.
(https://i.redditmedia.com/VsYYcZv2kGRrATAaCXKpYCkZVVrSVZD-HKf0rV4OBGY.png?w=1024&s=72c083cb869483ac1700aec6eb32c58a)
-
If you meet some average Joe in Japan, China or even Russia, especially outside of major cities, you'll have pretty slim chance to have even barely meaningful talk in English.
Of course, but again you are being deliberately obtuse. We are not talking about average Joe's, we are talking about professional engineers engaged in international business and commerce, as you well know.
-
If you meet some average Joe in Japan, China or even Russia, especially outside of major cities, you'll have pretty slim chance to have even barely meaningful talk in English.
Of course, but again you are being deliberately obtuse. We are not talking about average Joe's, we are talking about professional engineers engaged in international business and commerce, as you well know.
OK, I know a lot of chemists working in analytical laboratories in Russia (as example of pretty qualified people). Most of documentation (methods, standards, manuals) originally are in English. They fucking pay big money to get them translated :palm:. Most customers are non Russian as well. So out of those ~40 chemists, maybe like 3-5 somewhat know English on entry level. Other are completely clueless in English. None of them can read documentation without machine translation.
Only some office people talk in English, but I'd guess that was a requirement when hired.
Actually when I happen to arrive there, I'm like a god of English. Yet I cannot even write grammatically correct.
-
... If one of my German colleagues meets with one of my French colleagues, they will speak English together. Similarly with my Japanese colleagues, my Chinese colleagues, my Latin American colleagues. ...
How do you know what they speak when you are not there?
I know plenty of Germans who speak good French or Italian as well as German and English. I've done business in France, in French with a Frenchman and two Germans, and two Brits in attendance.
-
It may also be because I am not an EE. I work in a branch of engineering that involves lots of international business dealings and world-wide travel. English is the lingua franca of international commerce. If one of my German colleagues meets with one of my French colleagues, they will speak English together. Similarly with my Japanese colleagues, my Chinese colleagues, my Latin American colleagues. It is how the world works. People will of course switch to Chinese if they are both comfortable with the language, otherwise they will converse in English.
I don't think any rational person would deny that English is the lingua franca of the modern world, or that the majority of international meetings are conducted in English. The thing is most of the world isn't participating in those meetings, because of their limited to non-existent English. Try walking around the offices of an electronics multinational in China, and chat with the people. You'll generally have good success. Try the same in a local Chinese company and they'll run off to hunt for the one or two people with good enough English to hold a conversation with you. They usually have one or two on staff specifically to deal with international issues.
-
English is the lingua franca of international commerce.
Absolutely. Same for business, engineering, science, and so on.
I don't understand where from came this argument that English is not the de facto international language. :-//
-
English is the lingua franca of international commerce.
Absolutely. Same for business, engineering, science, and so on.
I don't understand where from came this argument that English is not the de facto international language. :-//
I did not see such argument. The argument confronted was that as English is an international language, everything else is irrelevant. And therefore typing in English only is sufficient for every case. Which IMO is plain stupid statement.
-
My logic was (short story):
- Electronic Design Engineers are able to read basic english
- because of that, ASCII coding suffice
-
My logic was (short story):
- Electronic Design Engineers are able to read basic english
- because of that, ASCII coding suffice
And your logic is faulty.
Ω ± µ ¹ ² ³ × ÷ √
None of these symbols exist in ASCII. ASCII is not sufficient. Just because you think only in terms of the written word and/or are unable to learn how to type symbols does not mean they are not needed.
-
My logic was (short story):
- Electronic Design Engineers are able to read basic english
- because of that, ASCII coding suffice
How about you go and learn some basic English then, instead of wasting everyone's time with pointless and invalid arguments? You keep on blabbering about how you cannot be an Elecronics Engineer without a grasp of basic English yet you haven't even learned that you're supposed to spell it with a capital "E". It doesn't get more basic than that.
Also, I can finally spell the name of a city I live in properly, at last.
What the hell is wrong with you to keep arguing for having less choice? Or do you just have to have an opposite opinion to everyone else, no matter what, because it somehow makes you feel smarter? Go away.
-
I cannot think of a single POSSIBLE disadvantage to having Unicode support on the forum. None that would justify it's removal.
ASCII is as basic of an encoding scheme as it gets, designed to be the minimal required standard for character translation from machine to machine.
I think there have to still be some EEs not working in English. Whether that is true or not is a matter of subjection, and the fact that with a pool of 7.6 billion people, and 1.5 billion English speakers, there has to be one person in that 5.1 billion excess that is a capable, functioning EE. Regardless, this forum isn't always about EE. Current issues relating to tech, and people in general is often brought up here. Strange product names in other languages, or someone asking for a quick translation of some text might pop up. The point isn't, if there isn't an immediate apparent to me, a single user, it should be ripped out, is not an adequate reason for not having Unicode support.
-
What the hell is wrong with you to keep arguing for having less choice?
"Epic tales "The Song of Coaming", "The Song of Turret Platform" and "Legend of the Smoothness of Movement" bring to us, albeit in somewhat tedious form, majestic picture of colossal battles without reason"
(ц)Иван Кошкин "Краткий биографический словарь древних участников форума, часть вторая" (http://vif2ne.org/nvk/forum/archive/1282/1282975.htm)