General > General Technical Chat
Unusual design of a free-flow hydropower station
tggzzz:
It is becoming difficult for me to distinguish Hydro from a troll. That's troll as in http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/t/troll.html , not the lazy journalism sense.
EDIT: an alternative is "fanatic", as in "A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject", often attributed to WinstonChurchill https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/01/fanatic/
Kasper:
--- Quote from: Hydro on January 22, 2024, 06:55:20 am ---I know what is it.
I just asked you, maybe you meant something else, because in this topic we are talking about water, which has nothing to do with electric current and buck SMPS.
Thought maybe you were just lost?
--- End quote ---
When I learned electronics, I used analogies of fluids in pipes to wrap my head around it. Later, I learned fluids and used my electronics knowledge to wrap my head around it.
You haven't defined what you mean by 'speed' and 'flow' so it's hard to talk fluids. I hoped that being on EEVBLOG forum meant you are familiar with electronics and that would help you learn fluids.
Some basic equations that describe electronics also work for fluids and mechanical systems. Boost SMPS for example are quite similar to ram pumps. Buck SMPS are similar to dams.
Seems you have focussed solely on the topic, fluids, and not the broader picture, we are on EEVBLOG forum.
Much like how focussing on current makes it seem like a buck SMPS breaks some conservation rule, if you fail to see the broader picture: power. It is power that is bound by a conservation rule, current can increase but power output can not be greater than power input.
pcprogrammer:
--- Quote from: Hydro on January 22, 2024, 02:05:44 pm ---This gives someone the false impression that I need some attention.
I repeat - I don’t need the attention of amateurs and clowns !
If you are not able to carefully read at least the essence of the topic, and you have nothing substantive to say, then it is better to pass by.
--- End quote ---
Why else are you actively pushing this on this forum then. In the end we all like attention.
But calling us amateurs and clowns make you the one who is ignorant. Sure I'm no expert in the field of hydro power, but do have a reasonable understanding of physics, and it all boils down to that.
The whole premise of the systems described is about releasing the potential energy from water be it flowing or still standing. The only way to achieve this is with a difference in height and that can only be very small in all the new so called promising structures described here, resulting in not a lot of gain over a traditional system.
But you are so convinced that these new methods are the golden ticket to a better future that your mind has been made up.
The argument that the device in the first video is only a small scale experiment to prove a point and that up scaling will definitely make it better, is in my perspective a load of garbage, because up scaling will bring other problems with friction and finding locations to even be able to apply it if it works, that it is like being on a road to nowhere.
But I will leave you be in most likely a soon to be empty space.
Hydro:
--- Quote from: pcprogrammer on January 22, 2024, 07:55:40 pm ---Why else are you actively pushing this on this forum then. In the end we all like attention.
--- End quote ---
We all like attention. But not the attention of amateurs and clowns.
That's exactly what I said.
--- Quote ---But calling us amateurs and clowns make you the one who is ignorant.
--- End quote ---
It is not calling things by their proper names that is considered ignorant, but amateurism that wants to appear significant.
I don’t call anyone in particular amateurs and clowns. I call amateurs and clowns precisely those amateurs and clowns who make statements without citing facts, documents, or calculations.
Then everyone can determine their status based on this.
You make such statements. (so determine your status yourself).
But this is no longer my problem, but more yours.
--- Quote ---Sure I'm no expert in the field of hydro power, but do have a reasonable understanding of physics, and it all boils down to that.
..........
The argument that the device in the first video is only a small scale experiment to prove a point and that up scaling will definitely make it better, is in my perspective a load of garbage, because up scaling will bring other problems with friction and finding locations to even be able to apply it if it works, that it is like being on a road to nowhere.
--- End quote ---
If you do have a reasonable understanding of physics, then you should know perfectly well what the “critical mass” is in a nuclear reaction. So size matters.
As the size increases, other technical and engineering difficulties inevitably arise, but this in no way denies the importance of nuclear reactions and the performance of nuclear reactors and power plants.
By declaring that upscaling (no matter what) is a load of garbage, without calculations and arguments, you put yourself in the above status.
--- Quote ---But you are so convinced that these new methods are the golden ticket to a better future that your mind has been made up.
But I will leave you in most likely a soon to be empty space.
--- End quote ---
The place will not remain empty. It will only be freed from the opinions of amateurs and clowns, and this is even for the better.
But it will never be empty.
It is viewed by a lot of people who are not amateurs and clowns, but who have nothing to say or object to the topic. They only receive information and understand it.
Again.
The “Overton window” (understanding the essence of things) does not open immediately.
If you are an inquisitive and intelligent person, then just be patient, get information, compare the facts, analyze where you need it or have doubts - do the math yourself.
The Overton Window will open and you will understand the essence.
It was the same with me
Hydro:
--- Quote from: Hydro on January 22, 2024, 08:41:37 am ---1. There are definitely analogies between electric current and water flow. But they are never complete.
This is exactly the case if you haven't noticed.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Kasper on January 22, 2024, 04:00:34 pm ---When I learned electronics, I used analogies of fluids in pipes to wrap my head around it. Later, I learned fluids and used my electronics knowledge to wrap my head around it.
You haven't defined what you mean by 'speed' and 'flow' so it's hard to talk fluids. I hoped that being on EEVBLOG forum meant you are familiar with electronics and that would help you learn fluids.
Some basic equations that describe electronics also work for fluids and mechanical systems. Boost SMPS for example are quite similar to ram pumps. Buck SMPS are similar to dams.
Seems you have focussed solely on the topic, fluids, and not the broader picture, we are on EEVBLOG forum.
Much like how focussing on current makes it seem like a buck SMPS breaks some conservation rule, if you fail to see the broader picture: power. It is power that is bound by a conservation rule, current can increase but power output can not be greater than power input.
--- End quote ---
Fine.
Let's do this.
I will now give you a dozen analogies between hydrodynamics and electrical engineering.
And then I will give you the terms of hydrodynamics and you yourself will have to find analogies for them.
When you'll say that you cannot do this, I will explain to you why.
So.
Direct current = fluid flow in a pipe
Alternating current - there are no analogies in hydrodynamics
Active power - flow power
Reactive power - there are no analogies in hydrodynamics
current = flow rate in the pipe
voltage = static pressure, dam height, pump pressure
Kirchhoff's circuit laws (in a particular case - Ohm's Law) = Bernoulli's Equation
wire thickness = pipe cross-section
resistance = pipe wall roughness
electric motor = hydraulic turbine
electric generator = water pump
electric arc = water hammer
upd.......
inductor - long pipe
battery, capacitor - reservoir, tank, dam
Now you....
gravity flow, free water
Turbulent
laminar
critical flow
subcritical flow
law of continuity of flow.
channel depth/width (note - they are by no means equivalent)
flow speed (this is not flow rate)
Reynolds number
Froud number
Prandtl number
gravity acceleration
hydraulic jump
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