USA --> Metric

[GK]

Why do you think so many people still use fractions in shops and on the jobsite....because we're too dumb to know decimals exist? 

All I wrote is that "all of my imperial/metric rulers have 1/16 divisions on the imperial edge" 

But continuing with the theme.... if I have a piece of wood that is 50mm wide and I want to find the center, it's just 25mm. Like, duh. I'm struggling to see the "great advantage" of traditional imperial fractions here.

[Rigby]

27/64, 0x1B shifted right 6 times.

[nctnico]

What is the diagonal distance of the monitor you are reading this?
Mine is 10.1" (Asus transformer prime with keyboard dock)

That is a perfect way to demonstrate inches are inaccurate  There is nothing more deceitful than monitor sizes. Back in the CRT days they would measure the size almos between the mounting posts. LCD is a little bit better where they usually specify the edge of the panel.

[SirNick]

Sticking to an established system because it would be costly and difficult to switch is a ridiculous excuse.  The more global we get, the more we will be forced to deal with metric anyway.  Meanwhile, the rest of the world has been putting up with converting all their native measurements to our archaic system, so they can communicate with our lazy, ego-centric desire to avoid a bothersome transition.

The metric system has a very profound advantage:  It's what everyone else uses.  Maintaining two systems helps no one, not even us over the long term.  Delaying the inevitable only prolongs the pain.

I realize it's not going to change overnight, and it's also not going to come as a mandate from the government.  Everyone with an interest in getting on with it just needs to start making it a little more uncomfortable to keep up this foolishness in their own little circle of influence.  We have 2L bottles and often see things in mm and deg. C.  It won't be that hard to have metric measurements start creeping in to other parts of our lives.  Let the entrenched industries have their way until it does become cost-effective to switch.  Until then, there's no reason we can't enjoy a nice, cold (8C) beer. 

[Rigby]

That's not the fault of the inch or any other unit of measure.  Don't confuse lies with inaccuracy.

Like most things, there are different ways to do it.  If the rest of the world has standardized, then the US should, too, good or bad.  Otherwise a lot more time will be spent in discussions like this one than it would actually take to make things better by standardizing.

The point isn't that one is better or worse, its that we (the US) think that we know better than everyone else, or that every other country is wrong, or that we're too busy or important or whatever to actually make the switch.  My daughter pulls this noise whenever its time for her to do something she doesn't want to do, and she's just whining because she'd rather play Minecraft than take a shower.

The US is the same way.  We are the whiny child of the world that strong arms others until they capitulate or we leave and take our toys with us.  Any American that doesn't agree with me and HASNT lived multiple consecutive years outside of the US should do so before they disagree with me.  There's a lot to be learned by living away from your home country, no matter where you're from.  Learning that imperial vs. Metric is just a symptom was part of that for me.

[miguelvp]

27/64, 0x1B shifted right 6 times.

areyouawizard.png

LOL, nah.

In decimal if you want to divide by 10 you shift the number one to the right, divide by 1000 then 3 to the right because:
10^0=1
10^1=10
10^2=100
10^3=1000

so 234,667/10,000 = 23.4667 right?

Same thing with binary
2^0=1
2^1=2
2^2=4
2^3=8
2^4=16
2^5=32
2^6=64
...

so what is 0x43bc2a in binary 0100 0011 1011 1100 0010 1010 divided by 64 shift it 6 times to the right
0100 0011 1011 1100 00(.)10 1010 or 0x010ef0 integral part and 0xa8 for the fractional part.

Same math that applies to decimal applies to binary. and since imperial fractions are 1/2 1/4 1/8 1/16 1/32 etc.. it translates very nicely to fix point or floating point for that matter.

so on floating point where the mantissa has a binary (1.) implied
the mantissa of 0100 0011 1011 1100 00(.)10 1010 will be

(01.)0000111011110000(.)101010 x 2^16 (because the period is 16 digits to the right so
0000 1110 1111 0000 1010 1000
the exponent 16 (0x10 hex) add that to the bias (127 or 0x7F in hex) of IEEE floating point representation so 143 decimal 0x8F hex and 0 for the sign and you have your float.


s     exp             mantissa
0 | 1000 1111 | 0000 1110 1111 0000 1010 100

organize it right and convert to hex
0100 0111 1000 0111 0111 1000 0101 0100

0x47877854, that should represent 69360.65625 which is the answer of  0x43bc2a divided by 64.



So it's base 2 divisions are simple to do and they store nicely in your system, Imperial wins

I kid, I like both, and I can use either, but for tooling using based 2 fractions wins. Since binary can't divide by 5 without error. So our tool fractional sizes as odd as they seem actually have an advantage as far as computers go.

[zapta]

The metric system has a very profound advantage:  It's what everyone else uses.

By this logic the French should switch to English.

[SirNick]

No, 'cause they're all mimes.  That would make no sense at all.

[Corporate666]

Sticking to an established system because it would be costly and difficult to switch is a ridiculous excuse.  The more global we get, the more we will be forced to deal with metric anyway.  Meanwhile, the rest of the world has been putting up with converting all their native measurements to our archaic system, so they can communicate with our lazy, ego-centric desire to avoid a bothersome transition.

The metric system has a very profound advantage:  It's what everyone else uses.  Maintaining two systems helps no one, not even us over the long term.  Delaying the inevitable only prolongs the pain.

I realize it's not going to change overnight, and it's also not going to come as a mandate from the government.  Everyone with an interest in getting on with it just needs to start making it a little more uncomfortable to keep up this foolishness in their own little circle of influence.  We have 2L bottles and often see things in mm and deg. C.  It won't be that hard to have metric measurements start creeping in to other parts of our lives.  Let the entrenched industries have their way until it does become cost-effective to switch.  Until then, there's no reason we can't enjoy a nice, cold (8C) beer. 

I don't think the cost is a ridiculous excuse at all - it's actually the only excuse that really makes sense.  The costs of switching would far outweigh the benefits, otherwise we would have switched already.  So calling for the switch to be made is really calling for something that will cost alot more than we'll get out of it.

Like a high speed train from San Fran to LA, or something

[Richard Crowley]

By this logic the French should switch to English.

Well, the Metric System appears to be the only enduring after-effect of the French Revolution.

We (USA) use the same amps, volts, ohms and watts that everyone else uses. And those are "metric" aren't they?   

[zapta]

I don't think the cost is a ridiculous excuse at all - it's actually the only excuse that really makes sense. 

Well said!

A long engineering thread that discusses a proposed solution but completely ignores the cost side. Strange.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

I don't think the cost is a ridiculous excuse at all - it's actually the only excuse that really makes sense. 

Well said!

A long engineering thread that discusses a proposed solution but completely ignores the cost side. Strange.

I don't know how you calculate those costs.
But you are also completely ignoring the costs of not changing and/or the potential savings of changing.

[Richard Crowley]

But you are also completely ignoring the costs of not changing and/or the potential savings of changing.

No, I think that is exactly what he was considering, and I agree completely.

Even nominally "metric" countries still use imperial units in many places.

[miguelvp]

Well, the Metric System appears to be the only enduring after-effect of the French Revolution.

Thank God the French republican calendar didn't go through and was abolished by Napoleon.

Imagine 12 months 30 days each, each month with 3 decades, rest was on the last day of the decade (1 day out of 10) at the end of the year having 5 days (6 on leap years) of revolution celebratory days that didn't belong to any month. and a 10h/day clock with 100 minutes per hour and one hundred seconds (probably not SI seconds).



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar#Decimal_time

¡Oh là là!

And I like the French, they did help us a lot to gain our independence.

About the cost, well it would be tremendous, all the industries will have to retooled, everything redesigned, all the infrastructure replaced, will be nuts! (Imperial nuts at that).

[Bored@Work]

Since binary can't divide by 5 without error. So our tool fractional sizes as odd as they seem actually have an advantage as far as computers go.

This is just once again making up an example so it fits the argument. We can do that to:

Counter example 1:

Divide 1010(bin) by 5(dec) and you have a binary divided by 5 without error.

Counter example 2:

You want something with a fraction? No problem: 10.1(bin)/5(dec) = 0.1(bin)

Hint: For those who want to make up some examples, the trick is to start with a multiple or fraction of the divider. Want to show that the ancient Egyptians knew some magic about space? Take some size measurement on some ancient pyramid. Doesn't matter what. Divide the distance earth-moon by that number. Not a round number? "adjust" the distance earth-moon to be a multiple of the obscure pyramid measurement in your calculation. It is anyhow not constant. Run the calculation again, publish a parascience paper about your discovery "Ancient Egyptians based Pyramid Size on Earth-Moon distance". Ignore the naysayers who reproduce your results using metric and who complain that the numbers look rather ugly.

I don't think the cost is a ridiculous excuse at all - it's actually the only excuse that really makes sense.

Not really, that argument also doesn't hold water.

a) Production in the US is low (check out current pictures of Detroit ...). There isn't simply that much there to be changed.

b) The argument always assumes it has to be done as a big-bang. Which is not true. You can gradually change. Actively taking up opportunities, instead of working twice as hard to ignore opportunities.

You need to update a process? Introduce metric for that process. Old machine broken? Replace it with a new one showing measurements in SI units. Your office runs out of supplies? Order the next batch of paper and envelopes in A and C sizes (and kick your IT guy to adjust the paper tray in your printer one notch to hold A4). A rusty roadsign needs replacement? Replace it with one showing distances in km, and write km behind each number.

c) Those countries who changed in the past didn't go bankrupt, the world didn't come to an end and hell didn't take over.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Well even if you don't want to change to metric. Do you think it is a better system?

As far as changing over, you are already doing it, but some of you haven't noticed.

I still think he was ignoring to costs of delaying the change to metric.
I for one really don't want to take two sets of spanners, two sets of Allen keys to a job. You surely will admit there is a cost in this.

[miguelvp]

Since binary can't divide by 5 without error. So our tool fractional sizes as odd as they seem actually have an advantage as far as computers go.

This is just once again making up an example so it fits the argument. We can do that to:

Counter example 1:

Divide 1010(bin) by 5(dec) and you have a binary divided by 5 without error.

Counter example 2:

You want something with a fraction? No problem: 10.1(bin)/5(dec) = 0.1(bin)

I said "our tool fractional sizes" so they are integers divided by base 2 integers representing values less than 1.
they have non error binary floating point representation all the way up to 1/16777216 increments or 2^-24. So you can store 16777215/16777216 and still be a non round off value.

Edit: And that's for 32 bit floats, with doubles well it goes even further.

No tricks, just coincidence that our tool fractions are base 2 fractions.

[miguelvp]

It's ok, you guys change everything to metric. We will be the only ones enjoying a pint  of beer at the bar.

Now, tell me that you'll be ok changing that and ask the barkeep  "I'll have a 473ml"

[IanB]

Now, tell me that you'll be ok changing that and ask the barkeep  "I'll have a 473ml"

Then you are definitely missing out on 95 ml 

[miguelvp]

yeah, the old imperial one not our pint, oops. But I rather tell the missus that I only had 3 pints than over a liter and a half.

[GK]

 

It's either a Middy, Pot, Handle or a Schooner down here.

[flolic]

Now, tell me that you'll be ok changing that and ask the barkeep  "I'll have a 473ml"

No, but then you'll be asking barkeeper for half liter like we all do on a Old Continent (sans UK)
So, that's even better 

[John Coloccia]

Why do you think so many people still use fractions in shops and on the jobsite....because we're too dumb to know decimals exist? 

All I wrote is that "all of my imperial/metric rulers have 1/16 divisions on the imperial edge" 

But continuing with the theme.... if I have a piece of wood that is 50mm wide and I want to find the center, it's just 25mm. Like, duh. I'm struggling to see the "great advantage" of traditional imperial fractions here.

I guess you think it's cute to pick 50mm, instead of something like 15.7mm.  Whatever.  I don't really care if anyone else sees the usefulness of fractions in the shop.  It seems rather short sighted and close minded to me, but what else is new.  I'm just trying to explain why it's still in widespread use.  It's because it's USEFUL.

[GK]

Why do you think so many people still use fractions in shops and on the jobsite....because we're too dumb to know decimals exist? 

All I wrote is that "all of my imperial/metric rulers have 1/16 divisions on the imperial edge" 

But continuing with the theme.... if I have a piece of wood that is 50mm wide and I want to find the center, it's just 25mm. Like, duh. I'm struggling to see the "great advantage" of traditional imperial fractions here.

I guess you think it's cute to pick 50mm, instead of something like 15.7mm.  Whatever.  I don't really care if anyone else sees the usefulness of fractions in the shop.  It seems rather short sighted and close minded to me, but what else is new.  I'm just trying to explain why it's still in widespread use.  It's because it's USEFUL.

And I find it "cute" that you picked a measurement that was a particularly convenient fraction of an inch! Of course measuring stuff out in easily divisible fractions of an inch makes the imperial system easier to use in some situations, but that hardly makes the imperial system better or generally easier to use than the metric system.

[John Coloccia]

Are you familiar with traditional Japanese woodworking measure?  Its even loonies than imperial units, but its VERY convenient for woodworking. The point is that standardizing for the sake of standardizing is not necessarily the best approach. There are advantages to using the most appropriate system for the task at hand.

And again, units have nothing to do with whether you use fractions or decimals. Many tasks would be much simpler with fractional metric measurement.