USB-C charging law in the EU.

[PlainName]

A multi-vendor standard line of batteries would be the right step, but I doubt it's happening.

Like this one that’s been around for years?

https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/

Only one I recognise from there is Metabo (and my only such tool from them is wired). Seems like the only way to get them all on board is to mandate something...

[Monkeh]

I'm sorry, but I don't like bullshit

Then please don't try and pass a 5V input boost converter off as a 48V input buck capable of safely charging and balancing a 5S pack at 8A.

You've not spent a lot of time working with power tools in real world conditions, I'm certain.

[SiliconWizard]

NB: You septics call 18V Li-ion batteries 20V, for some reason.

Manufacturers call them so to begin with  . It depends on what voltage you take, nominal or fully charged. Also if we start nitpicking, septics do not talk, they collect excrements.

No, it's an American thing, Bigger is better, our American group MD believes this bullshit. Dewalt sell in the US and Europe, same batteries in the US are 20V and Europe 18V, standards were established for a reason.

I don't know if it's exclusivelty an american thing. But they did do the same crap even with software versions, look how inflated versions of web browsers have become ever since Google started ridiculous version numbers with Chrome. Everyone followed. Bigger is better, right?

And back to batteries, yes, using the max charged voltage as a marketing tool instead of the nominal voltage, is at best misleading.

[magic]

Most mainstream browsers are American, and three of them from California to boot.
It was inevitable

[Siwastaja]

A multi-vendor standard line of batteries would be the right step, but I doubt it's happening.

Like this one that’s been around for years?

https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/

Not a true alliance either, it's just one large corporation and their compatible sub-brands are not competing with each other, they are just for different fields, most never-heard niche.

Real compatibility alliance would mean e.g. that Makita, Bosch, Milwaukee, Metabo, Panasonic (or whatever is their current name) etc. power tools would have cross-compatible batteries. Not going to happen by the free market.

Think about it: their "alliance" claims compatibility to over 300 machines, but to compare, Makita LXT alone says they have over 325 machines. This 300 is the magic number of power tools for any single manufacturer.

[Siwastaja]

Sure, because a single SO8 charger is such a burden, especially that you need an inductor and maybe a couple tens of microfarad of capacitors with it. So your reasoning that his much circuit
...
in a battery pack is more environmentally harmful than this:
...
Which you throw out when the battery pack is not working anymore.

You are absolutely right when it comes to single use consumer power tools. Even better than integrated charger on the pack, would be integrated-battery-and-charger-within-device, as I said above. All of this from USB-C with a crappy plastic cap, which would be lost around the same time when the DC motor brushes wear out or a plastic gear snaps. It would be good for drilling a few hundred holes and driving a few hundred screws, during a year or two, and charged like 5-10 times. Amount of e-waste is minimized when everything breaks down at the same time, and modularity (and overhead caused by it; e.g. battery connectors and separate plastic casing) is minimized.

On the other hand, in mid- or high-end power tools which see real (not only occasional) use, professional or home (e.g. larger renovations), these large dedicated chargers for swappable packs last for years, are used a lot, so not an e-waste problem.

[David Hess]

A multi-vendor standard line of batteries would be the right step, but I doubt it's happening.

Like this one that’s been around for years?

https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/

I have seen those before and would have declined such a standard for the same reason of poor ergonomics that I declined everything except the Milwaukee M12 standard.

[wraper]

A multi-vendor standard line of batteries would be the right step, but I doubt it's happening.

Like this one that’s been around for years?

https://www.cordless-alliance-system.com/

Not a true alliance either, it's just one large corporation and their compatible sub-brands are not competing with each other, they are just for different fields, most never-heard niche.

Real compatibility alliance would mean e.g. that Makita, Bosch, Milwaukee, Metabo, Panasonic (or whatever is their current name) etc. power tools would have cross-compatible batteries. Not going to happen by the free market.

Think about it: their "alliance" claims compatibility to over 300 machines, but to compare, Makita LXT alone says they have over 325 machines. This 300 is the magic number of power tools for any single manufacturer.

It's certainly not a single corporation. However I suspect most of them are under umbrella of the same holding company and others are not really tool producers but sell rebranded tools that can be used with other products they actually produce. Fischer for example.

[tszaboo]

I'm sorry, but I don't like bullshit

Then please don't try and pass a 5V input boost converter off as a 48V input buck capable of safely charging and balancing a 5S pack at 8A.

You've not spent a lot of time working with power tools in real world conditions, I'm certain.

This is a 3S pack charger with PD. You seem to go for a hyperbole immediately, so I also should clarify that it also not enough to charge an electric car. I have half a dozen battery powered power tool at home, all of which could be USB PD powered, and this is applicable to 95% of the people.

[Siwastaja]

so I also should clarify that it also not enough to charge an electric car

Of course it could - given enough time. Think about the possibilities of USB-C charging your EV at 200W; at 200Wh/km, that's one km charged every hour!

[nctnico]

Sure, because a single SO8 charger is such a burden, especially that you need an inductor and maybe a couple tens of microfarad of capacitors with it. So your reasoning that his much circuit
...
in a battery pack is more environmentally harmful than this:
...
Which you throw out when the battery pack is not working anymore.

You are absolutely right when it comes to single use consumer power tools. Even better than integrated charger on the pack, would be integrated-battery-and-charger-within-device,

Even better: buy the version with a power cord! For occasional use around the home battery operated power tools make no sense at all both financially and ergonimically. An extension cord is pretty cheap compared to buying batteries. When you need the tool, the battery will be near empty so you'd need to wait for the battery to charge. And when the battery runs out, you need to take a long break. On top of that, you don't need to lift the relatively heavy battery pack all the time.

[AVGresponding]

Sure, because a single SO8 charger is such a burden, especially that you need an inductor and maybe a couple tens of microfarad of capacitors with it. So your reasoning that his much circuit
...
in a battery pack is more environmentally harmful than this:
...
Which you throw out when the battery pack is not working anymore.

You are absolutely right when it comes to single use consumer power tools. Even better than integrated charger on the pack, would be integrated-battery-and-charger-within-device,

Even better: buy the version with a power cord! For occasional use around the home battery operated power tools make no sense at all both financially and ergonimically. An extension cord is pretty cheap compared to buying batteries. When you need the tool, the battery will be near empty so you'd need to wait for the battery to charge. And when the battery runs out, you need to take a long break. On top of that, you don't need to lift the relatively heavy battery pack all the time.

There are benefits and drawback to both; corded power tools are frequently more awkward to use because they have to be plugged in near enough to the job, and they are a trip and shock hazard.

[tom66]

Even better: buy the version with a power cord! For occasional use around the home battery operated power tools make no sense at all both financially and ergonimically. An extension cord is pretty cheap compared to buying batteries. When you need the tool, the battery will be near empty so you'd need to wait for the battery to charge. And when the battery runs out, you need to take a long break. On top of that, you don't need to lift the relatively heavy battery pack all the time.

I really have no idea where you get this early 2000's idea from that corded is somehow better.  My lithium ion Bosch tools recharge in 30 minutes, the battery pack (2Ah) is quite light, I only charge them about once every few weeks for my usage profile (home DIYer), and they keep charge for months on end.  Do they cost more than corded tools ... well, yes, for the first one or two because you need batteries and chargers, but afterwards you just buy the battery-free tool sets and they're just as cheap if not cheaper than the mains powered ones.  Ergonomically I'd much rather prefer a slightly heavier power tool than a long cord hanging from it.

There is a good reason why the mainstream manufacturers only make corded tools where cordless is impractical, e.g. SDS hammer drills which need long endurance times or very high power outputs, and that's because customers definitely prefer battery power over a cable.  For instance, try finding a corded impact driver now.  They do exist but there's vastly fewer available compared to the battery-powered options, most manufacturers having a consumer, prosumer and professional option for instance.

[nctnico]

Even better: buy the version with a power cord! For occasional use around the home battery operated power tools make no sense at all both financially and ergonimically. An extension cord is pretty cheap compared to buying batteries. When you need the tool, the battery will be near empty so you'd need to wait for the battery to charge. And when the battery runs out, you need to take a long break. On top of that, you don't need to lift the relatively heavy battery pack all the time.

I really have no idea where you get this early 2000's idea from that corded is somehow better.  My lithium ion Bosch tools recharge in 30 minutes, the battery pack (2Ah) is quite light, I only charge them about once every few weeks for my usage profile (home DIYer), and they keep charge for months on end.

Corded IS better! My Makita corded screw driver (with an extra long, high quality rubber cord) plugs in a wall socket and is ready to go. Instantly. No preparation, no charging, no charger that sits somewhere. I used to have various versions of Makita battery operated cordless drills for 20 years or so but dealing with the batteries annoyed the hell out of me. Allways empty (or running out) when I needed it. Especially when some unplanned job turns up. I got rid of them and never looked back.

Edit: typo (thanks wraper for noting!)

[wraper]

Even better: buy the version with a power cord! For occasional use around the home battery operated power tools make no sense at all both financially and ergonimically. An extension cord is pretty cheap compared to buying batteries. When you need the tool, the battery will be near empty so you'd need to wait for the battery to charge. And when the battery runs out, you need to take a long break. On top of that, you don't need to lift the relatively heavy battery pack all the time.

I really have no idea where you get this early 2000's idea from that corded is somehow better.  My lithium ion Bosch tools recharge in 30 minutes, the battery pack (2Ah) is quite light, I only charge them about once every few weeks for my usage profile (home DIYer), and they keep charge for months on end.

Corded IS better! My Makita cordless screw driver (with an extra long, high quality rubber cord) plugs in a wall socket and is ready to go. Instantly. No preparation, no charging, no charger that sits somewhere. I used to have various versions of Makita battery operated cordless drills for 20 years or so but dealing with the batteries annoyed the hell out of me. Allways empty (or running out) when I needed it. Especially when some unplanned job turns up. I got rid of them and never looked back.

No thank you. Socket is often not available near enough. Then you need extension cord, often a very long one. And cable is interfering with the job and looping around that extension cord all of the time.

Makita cordless screw driver (with an extra long, high quality rubber cord)

That's a non sequitur.

[PlainName]

I used to have various versions of Makita battery operated cordless drills for 20 years or so but dealing with the batteries annoyed the hell out of me.

Not surprised. NiCd and NiMh batteried did everything you say: went flat on their own quickly, relatively gutless, take ages to charge. It was the same with cars - no-one (except youtube wannabes, would make a lead-acid powered car). But Li-ion has been a game changer and things that were a drag even 10 years ago are pretty cool now. Hell, I even prefer battery drills because of the better balance provided by the battery counterweight now.

But they are not magical. Just because they are great for many things doesn't make them perfect for everything, and a sensible discussion will bear that in mind rather than using extreme edge cases to 'prove' they are shit for the other 99% of cases too. Or vice versa, of course.

[Siwastaja]

Even better: buy the version with a power cord! For occasional use around the home battery operated power tools make no sense at all both financially and ergonimically. An extension cord is pretty cheap compared to buying batteries. When you need the tool, the battery will be near empty so you'd need to wait for the battery to charge. And when the battery runs out, you need to take a long break. On top of that, you don't need to lift the relatively heavy battery pack all the time.

I wholeheartedly agree with this unpopular opinion. However big game changer li-ion has been, batterization of every random power tool has gone too far. Corded tools are a bit PITA sometimes, but finding out the battery is empty then start looking for the charger you tossed in some drawer somewhere is even bigger PITA. And if you have three random cheap Chinese power tools, you likely have three different batteries and three chargers. OTOH, cheap mains-powered power tools have crap efficiency, but it doesn't matter for occasional use; the main point is, they are much cheaper and simpler than the battery equivalents.

And for occasional use, corded tools have no expiration date, unlike li-ion batteries (especially cheap). Many 30-year old power tools still work, even the cheap ones, with light use.

For serious use, one obviously buys full set of tools they need, quick charger and enough batteries, from one brand, which would be at least a 1000EUR investment, but this isn't relevant to most home owners who do small stuff every now and then.

Obviously a good Makita LXT set is going to win over a random corded power tool, but if you do a fair comparison of cheap crap versus cheap crap, the corded is even cheaper and has fewer parts and does the same job.

[nctnico]

And for occasional use, corded tools have no expiration date, unlike li-ion batteries (especially cheap). Many 30-year old power tools still work, even the cheap ones, with light use.

That is a good point indeed. For occasional use you won't even wear a device out before the batteries go obsolete. A couple of years ago I threw out a Makita cordless drill which was like brand new but the batteries where dead and no replacements (at least not for a decent price). Such a waste of materials and money!

[tom66]

Corded IS better! My Makita corded screw driver (with an extra long, high quality rubber cord) plugs in a wall socket and is ready to go. Instantly. No preparation, no charging, no charger that sits somewhere. I used to have various versions of Makita battery operated cordless drills for 20 years or so but dealing with the batteries annoyed the hell out of me. Allways empty (or running out) when I needed it. Especially when some unplanned job turns up. I got rid of them and never looked back.

Edit: typo (thanks wraper for noting!)

And don't forget you might need to get out the extension lead because there is no socket anywhere near where you need it. Meanwhile I always have at least one charged battery in my tool draw, so in the worst case  5 seconds later I have a working tool.  The batteries don't appreciably discharge themselves when unused. 

But, horses for courses, if you like corded tools then keep buying them - someone must, they still make them!

[wraper]

IMHO corded tools are good when you don't need to move them around or it's a really extensive use of high consumption tool that changing the batteries is more cumbersome that dealing with stupid cable. Of course the major aspect is cost. You probably don't want an expensive battery powered angle grinder for occasional domestic use when you can get good enough corded tool for basically peanuts.

[nctnico]

And what is the problem with an extension cord? I have some good quality rubber ones which lay flat (don't coil up) and don't get stiff when cold.

[tszaboo]

Sure, because a single SO8 charger is such a burden, especially that you need an inductor and maybe a couple tens of microfarad of capacitors with it. So your reasoning that his much circuit
...
in a battery pack is more environmentally harmful than this:
...
Which you throw out when the battery pack is not working anymore.

You are absolutely right when it comes to single use consumer power tools. Even better than integrated charger on the pack, would be integrated-battery-and-charger-within-device,

Even better: buy the version with a power cord! For occasional use around the home battery operated power tools make no sense at all both financially and ergonimically. An extension cord is pretty cheap compared to buying batteries. When you need the tool, the battery will be near empty so you'd need to wait for the battery to charge. And when the battery runs out, you need to take a long break. On top of that, you don't need to lift the relatively heavy battery pack all the time.

Yeah, my impact drill, angle grinder and sander for example are all wired. It's better that way, and the tool is more durable. I also went with the semi-professional series, these are all tools that will last a lifetime with the usage they get from me. Plus they are often really really cheap.
But that's beside the point. I don't think we will get a 700W angle grinder with USB-C, but I would like to have the 12V battery packs with USB.

[wraper]

I can say about recent experience at doing stuff at my home. Wired power tools connected to 25m extension cord were a major nuisance when I was redoing poorly installed rolling gate and its automatics that are squeezed in between of a fence and bushes.

[PlainName]

Isn't the proof of the pudding in the eating? Justifying purchases isn't quite the same as seeing which one you reach for if you have the choice. For me, and for most tools I have the wired and battery equivalent, it's usually the battery job for the convenience and lack of wires. Particularly with spinning disk stuff (angle grinders, circular saws) the cable is an assassin looking for a victim.

But there are exceptions: the Bosch wired multi-tool gets used in preference except when there is no power point available. No idea why that's the odd one.

[NiHaoMike]

I would like to see more power tools that have the option of running either cordless or corded. Ryobi made some a few years ago, great for users but not so good for manufacturers looking to sell new batteries.