USB-C charging law in the EU.

[AVGresponding]

Well, in practice rechargeable-battery-operated tablets, cameras, video games, navigation systems, earbuds etc. will include WiFi and/or Bluetooth functionality, so they are radio equipment. Not sure whether a device without any radio interface would be outside of the scope of the planned rules, but I am not aware of any radio-less current product in these categories anyway.

Still lots of cameras out there that don't have wireless functionality.

Notably absent from the list are battery operated power tools, which rarely have wireless functionality. My opinion is that those should be required to have USB-C and/or an IEC mains input on the tool or on the battery unless they are IP65 rated or greater.

No, just no. The power output of usb-c isn't up to the job in any case, for the bigger batteries and the requirement for fast charging, but apart from that, keep shitty, fragile consumer crap out of my workplace, thank you very much. Also that would require impractical increases of size for batteries or tools. No.

[JPortici]

To do so the BMS system as well as a boost converter is needed for devices that requires higher voltage than USB-C is capable to provide.

USB-PD goes up to 48V for the latest version. More than that and just putting an IEC mains input on the device would make most sense in most cases.

This EU press release has a list of objects that require USB-C charging:  https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/10/24/common-charger-eu-ministers-give-final-approval-to-one-size-fits-all-charging-port/
Question:  is that list exhaustive?
Mention is made of a later deadline for laptops.

Seems odd to mention video game *consoles* rather than video game *controllers*. Are they trying to limit new game consoles to 240W of power use or was that a misprint?

I think if a console has battery charging in it, limiting it to 240W is a reasonable request. Think about a PSP or a Oculus headset, not a PS5 or Xbox.

The Switch itself is a good example: the USB C port supports fast charging, and if you connect it to the dock, also audio/video output, ethernet, memory, accessories. Controllers are either wired or with wireless charge

Why can't they just let the market decide how things are made?

Ah yes, the good old times in which every phone maker and model had a different barrel plug and/or data connector with proprietary protocol for data transfert. Damn the EU and their memorandums that suggested manufacturers to adopt USB for power and data transferts or it would be mandated by law anyway. The world has truly suffered from that intrusion in the free market and its self regulation (it would have taken just a little more time, trust me)

[Bud]

Not sure what you mean. Obviously USB-C is a fragile connector no matter how much materials you wrap around it. A slight vertical push on a plugged connector is all that us needed to bend and crack the mating part.

Nonsense. It’s not “obviously” fragile, nor is it independent of the “materials you wrap around it”. Smart manufacturers use molded or milled slots in a thick part of the enclosure to mechanically guide the plug, so that it’s the enclosure, not the socket, taking all the force. This has proven to be very reliable.

Proven? Bullshit with capital B.

[wraper]

Not sure what you mean. Obviously USB-C is a fragile connector no matter how much materials you wrap around it. A slight vertical push on a plugged connector is all that us needed to bend and crack the mating part.

Nonsense. It’s not “obviously” fragile, nor is it independent of the “materials you wrap around it”. Smart manufacturers use molded or milled slots in a thick part of the enclosure to mechanically guide the plug, so that it’s the enclosure, not the socket, taking all the force. This has proven to be very reliable.

Proven? Bullshit with capital B.

Many phones and tablets are proven to survive just fine with connector cycled every day and device dropped or pulled hard by the user with cable inserted. Unless it's SMT only and without TH mounting tabs most of USB-C female connectors will run circles around round charging connectors, most of other other large connectors, and especially full size USB A and B. When seeing broken USB-C and micro, people forget that large connectors that may seem more reliable do not get nearly as much abuse.

[wraper]

BTW I worked in mobile phone repair service for several years a bit more than a decade ago. And from repairing many thousands of phones I can say that micro USB connector itself was almost never damaged, even when ripped off the board (types with poor mounting). Also there were certain types of them with heavy TH mounting of which I haven't seen a single one damaged or ripped of the board. They were totally indestructible.

[CJay]

Seems odd to mention video game *consoles* rather than video game *controllers*. Are they trying to limit new game consoles to 240W of power use or was that a misprint?

Does it meniton anywhere that you can only have one USB-C port for power only I can see how a 240W limit could easily be bypassed

[CJay]

BTW I worked in mobile phone repair service for several years a bit more than a decade ago. And from repairing many thousands of phones I can say that micro USB connector itself was almost never damaged, even when ripped off the board (types with poor mounting). Also there were certain types of them with heavy TH mounting of which I haven't seen a single one damaged or ripped of the board. They were totally indestructible.

I keep seeing this argument about USB-C connectors yet despite handling nearly 900 (I just checked, 896) laptops with associated USB-C chargers and accessories this year alone I'm yet to find one that's got a broken connector.

*edit* Also, a couple hundred phones with USB-C, still not one broken USB-C socket. A good number of screens mind...

Really makes me wonder what sort of gorilla you'd need to be to wreck one

I have seen a couple of damaged Micro USB connectors in phones, I think they resulted from people forcing the plug in the wrong way round.

[tooki]

Not sure what you mean. Obviously USB-C is a fragile connector no matter how much materials you wrap around it. A slight vertical push on a plugged connector is all that us needed to bend and crack the mating part.

Nonsense. It’s not “obviously” fragile, nor is it independent of the “materials you wrap around it”. Smart manufacturers use molded or milled slots in a thick part of the enclosure to mechanically guide the plug, so that it’s the enclosure, not the socket, taking all the force. This has proven to be very reliable.

Proven? Bullshit with capital B.

LMAO at your unfounded certainty.

I didn’t say that all USB-C ports have proven to be reliable, just the ones where the port is well protected by a thick, precisely manufactured and aligned enclosure.

P.S. The phrase “X has proven to be Y…” doesn’t mean ”proof” in the absolute sense; it simply means “X has demonstrated to be Y.”

[vad]

Why can't they just let the market decide how things are made?

Then look at your healthcare system as example of how well "free market" works. Hint: no government pays nearly as much per capita and at the same time many manage to get free healthcare for every citizen. And even when it's 100% paid by patient it's still way less than insurance copayment in US.

Bad example. In the US, the healthcare system and health insurance industry have been heavily regulated since the era of FDR, and healthcare costs are significantly influenced by tort laws.

[tooki]

Why can't they just let the market decide how things are made?

Then look at your healthcare system as example of how well "free market" works. Hint: no government pays nearly as much per capita and at the same time many manage to get free healthcare for every citizen. And even when it's 100% paid by patient it's still way less than insurance copayment in US.

Bad example. In the US, the healthcare system and health insurance industry have been heavily regulated since the era of FDR, and healthcare costs are significantly influenced by tort laws.

Ehhhh... I don’t think you can say that. Healthcare products are no more or less regulated than in any other developed nation. And the US healthcare system is fairly lightly regulated compared to other developed countries.

Also, the effect of tort on the US healthcare system is not nearly as big as it’s usually made out to be. (I used to believe it was a major factor, but I’ve since come to learn this is not supported by the data.)

[NiHaoMike]

No, just no. The power output of usb-c isn't up to the job in any case, for the bigger batteries and the requirement for fast charging, but apart from that, keep shitty, fragile consumer crap out of my workplace, thank you very much. Also that would require impractical increases of size for batteries or tools. No.

What power tool charger you have that's greater than 240W? Only ones I can think of are the ones for cordless mowers, but that's already big enough for an IEC mains input to make sense. (And the ability to run either corded or cordless would be nice for the majority of cases where a large part of the lawn is easily within reach of an outlet using a reasonable length extension cord, but part of it is not.)

[Icchan]

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/10/24/common-charger-eu-ministers-give-final-approval-to-one-size-fits-all-charging-port/

There only single thin ont hat category list that i'm even tad iffy about: digital cameras and video game consoles

I mean... if they're portable and rechargeable... sure. But for PS5 or similar? Naaah... and I think the reason is that these rules apply only if the thing is RECARGEABLE or capable of running from max 24v 60W-100W supply or lower.

I mean they're not idiots. Obviously not going to charge your EV from USB-C now are you? What they're trying to do is to reduce e-waste, and tons and tons of e-waste is proprietary charging and powersupply solutions manufacturers use for no reason what so ever.

And this goes good ways to get that shit in line.

[David Hess]

Not sure what you mean. Obviously USB-C is a fragile connector no matter how much materials you wrap around it. A slight vertical push on a plugged connector is all that us needed to bend and crack the mating part.

I agree, and I dread when the USB-C connector on my phone or laptop fails.  The Framework laptop allows the user to replace the USB-C module.  My own laptop has *two* USB-C ports and both support bidirectional power, but later models only have one, of course.

Bunch of busy-bodies with nothing better to do.

Why can't they just let the market decide how things are made? I smell a billionaire-wanna-be in the making here. Somebody is trying to reap some money. I don't know who, but somebody!

Separate adapters and charging systems do produce more waste, but so do batteries.  I would have preferred that they charge a Pigouvian tax based on the negative externalities of disposing of the extra waste, including batteries, but I suspect this was not politically feasible.

Ah yes, the good old times in which every phone maker and model had a different barrel plug and/or data connector with proprietary protocol for data transfert.

The USB-C PD protocol supports cryptographic authentication so manufacturers are still free to tie their products to their chargers.  It was part of the standard from the very start.  I predict nothing will change, only now the chargers will look like they should be compatible when they are not.

With that said, my Samsung phone is incredibly picky about which USB-C chargers support "fast charging".  It even pops up a message taunting me when an "unauthorized" charger is connected.

[PlainName]

The USB-C PD protocol supports cryptographic authentication so manufacturers are still free to tie their products to their chargers.

Seems to defeat the point of mandating USB-C and, as you  note, just adds confusion as to why your device isn't charging.

[CJay]

The USB-C PD protocol supports cryptographic authentication so manufacturers are still free to tie their products to their chargers.  It was part of the standard from the very start.  I predict nothing will change, only now the chargers will look like they should be compatible when they are not.

With that said, my Samsung phone is incredibly picky about which USB-C chargers support "fast charging".  It even pops up a message taunting me when an "unauthorized" charger is connected.

Yup, just like Apple have done for years.

At least the USB-C crypto authentication is intended in good faith, unlike the Apple one which was always designed to lock out other manufacturers unless they paid to join the party.

[wraper]

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2022/10/24/common-charger-eu-ministers-give-final-approval-to-one-size-fits-all-charging-port/

There only single thin ont hat category list that i'm even tad iffy about: digital cameras and video game consoles

I mean... if they're portable and rechargeable... sure. But for PS5 or similar? Naaah... and I think the reason is that these rules apply only if the thing is RECARGEABLE or capable of running from max 24v 60W-100W supply or lower.

I mean they're not idiots. Obviously not going to charge your EV from USB-C now are you? What they're trying to do is to reduce e-waste, and tons and tons of e-waste is proprietary charging and powersupply solutions manufacturers use for no reason what so ever.

And this goes good ways to get that shit in line.

Word charging port means it's used for charging. If device has no charging capability this law does not apply. Also this is a press release, look into actual document where it's explicitly said handheld videogame consoles. All the fuss over refusing to understand what it's all about.

[tooki]

The USB-C PD protocol supports cryptographic authentication so manufacturers are still free to tie their products to their chargers.  It was part of the standard from the very start.  I predict nothing will change, only now the chargers will look like they should be compatible when they are not.

With that said, my Samsung phone is incredibly picky about which USB-C chargers support "fast charging".  It even pops up a message taunting me when an "unauthorized" charger is connected.

Yup, just like Apple have done for years.

At least the USB-C crypto authentication is intended in good faith, unlike the Apple one which was always designed to lock out other manufacturers unless they paid to join the party.

That is completely untrue: Apple’s USB-C devices are happy to charge from standard chargers.

The sole exception is the very first USB-C MacBook, whose USB-C implementation followed the preliminary USB PD standard (the only version out at the time). For whatever reason, the at the last minute the USB Forum changed the voltages in the final USB PD standard, stranding that MacBook that uses a voltage unsupported in chargers built to the final standard. All subsequent Apple devices with USB-C charging are happy to charge with third party chargers.

[mendip_discovery]

I do find it interesting that the company that pioneered the use if USB in the first place was one of the slowest to change thier chargers for phones. They are the ones that have forced the hand of the EU.

The USB charging ports I often come across as designed for iPhones so don't support fast charging or even have the current to charge the phone in some cases. But that might improve with these regulations but I won't hold my breath.

Let's just hope they don't go silly and start insisting every charger has to be USB.

[tooki]

I do find it interesting that the company that pioneered the use if USB in the first place was one of the slowest to change thier chargers for phones. They are the ones that have forced the hand of the EU.

As I said, they were reluctant to change because they already had the reputation of changing their connectors too frequently. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t…

(But I am a bit perplexed that it took as long as it did, since they had already moved almost everything else to USB-C already. For me, it went from USB-C on my iPad being the weirdo among my Apple devices, with everything else using Lightning, to everything using USB-C except for the iPhone, with its Lightning being the oddball. Once I get a new iPhone, I’ll be able to just carry USB-C cables for all my devices, both Apple and otherwise.)

[AVGresponding]

No, just no. The power output of usb-c isn't up to the job in any case, for the bigger batteries and the requirement for fast charging, but apart from that, keep shitty, fragile consumer crap out of my workplace, thank you very much. Also that would require impractical increases of size for batteries or tools. No.

What power tool charger you have that's greater than 240W? Only ones I can think of are the ones for cordless mowers, but that's already big enough for an IEC mains input to make sense. (And the ability to run either corded or cordless would be nice for the majority of cases where a large part of the lawn is easily within reach of an outlet using a reasonable length extension cord, but part of it is not.)

Any modern real power tool with a fast charger. Personal example would be my DeWalt fast charger that does an 18V 5.0Ah battery in 20 minutes. Then there's the DeWalt FlexVolt, not sure what the charge power is on those but it's going to be more than 240W. Pretty sure all the main manufacturers have a fast charger for their pro/pro-sumer grade tools.

This is besides the point in any case, as these things are just too flimsy to survive more than a few days on any construction site I've ever worked on.

NB: You septics call 18V Li-ion batteries 20V, for some reason.

[wraper]

NB: You septics call 18V Li-ion batteries 20V, for some reason.

Manufacturers call them so to begin with  . It depends on what voltage you take, nominal or fully charged. Also if we start nitpicking, septics do not talk, they collect excrements.

[Monkeh]

No, just no. The power output of usb-c isn't up to the job in any case, for the bigger batteries and the requirement for fast charging, but apart from that, keep shitty, fragile consumer crap out of my workplace, thank you very much. Also that would require impractical increases of size for batteries or tools. No.

What power tool charger you have that's greater than 240W?

As stated, any fast charger for modern size packs may exceed 240W or 5A. USB-C until recently was limited to 20V - you need 21V to charge an 18V pack. You're also now adding extra connectors to a device already equipped with all the contacts it needs.

You can have a USB-C port on your toy drill you use to assemble Ikea furniture. There is no demand for such on serious tools.

[CJay]

Any modern real power tool with a fast charger. Personal example would be my DeWalt fast charger that does an 18V 5.0Ah battery in 20 minutes. Then there's the DeWalt FlexVolt, not sure what the charge power is on those but it's going to be more than 240W. Pretty sure all the main manufacturers have a fast charger for their pro/pro-sumer grade tools.

The highest current Dewalt charger have is the XR12A, that's 12 Amps at 18V which can charge a 9AH battery in 45 minutes so that would seem roughly analogous to your 5AH battery in 20 mins.

However, a quick cig packet calculation will tell you that 12 amps at 18V is 216W and, if you actually read the spec sheet of the charger,  it only charges to 80% in that 45/20 minutes, a full charge will take a lot longer.

For your reference and to help you not look silly in future, the power formula:

P=VI

[NiHaoMike]

This is besides the point in any case, as these things are just too flimsy to survive more than a few days on any construction site I've ever worked on.

Note how I mentioned that IP65 or greater should be exempt, ruggedize it to at least that level and it wouldn't be required to have USB-C charging. That still leaves how to standardize the ones that do go that route, I suppose Qi charging would make sense for the smaller ones. For the bigger ones, some sort of standardized rugged connector would be the way to go.

[Siwastaja]

The USB-C PD protocol supports cryptographic authentication so manufacturers are still free to tie their products to their chargers.  It was part of the standard from the very start.  I predict nothing will change, only now the chargers will look like they should be compatible when they are not.

It seems you were deep frozen in 2017, but hello again and welcome to year 2023! You know, that USB-C thing happened many years ago, and despite your warranted fears, none of that nasty stuff happened, and I have never heard anyone have any compatibility problems whatsoever with USB-C chargers and devices, which are everywhere. I'm very glad your prediction was wrong.