Author Topic: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.  (Read 17670 times)

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Offline sokoloff

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2020, 11:13:10 pm »
Whoop de doo, it's "symmetrical" so stupid lazy consumers who are too clumsy and lazy, don't plug it in the wrong way around. Don't see the issue tbh - when was the last time anyone complained that inserting a polarised mains plug into a wall outlet was "a problem"? The 12th of never is when.
Well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30K2hhnV88I&feature=youtu.be&t=216
 

Online wraper

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2020, 11:40:08 pm »
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2020, 01:34:14 am »
Rant noted.  With all apologies for small sample size, my extended family has a good mixture of Apple, Android and other small electronic products.  And have had cable failures in all of them.  My observation is that the failure rate is more dependent on the user than on the configuration.  With a couple of family members able to generate high failure rates on the "respected" Apple products.

If you want a truly reliable connector system go with military or industrial connectors.  You will take a substantial size and convenience hit.  Those jack screws take time to tighten/loosen.  Same for screwing in circular connector shells.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2020, 02:39:44 am »
And have had cable failures in all of them.  My observation is that the failure rate is more dependent on the user than on the configuration.  With a couple of family members able to generate high failure rates on the "respected" Apple products.
It's because apple bent the knee to goddamn stupid Greenpeace activists and doesn't use PVC since 2009. The result is cable insulation splitting after a few months of use which results in tons of e-waste filling landfills.
 

Offline dl6lr

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2020, 06:13:20 am »
And have had cable failures in all of them. 

A failing cable is easy to replace, a failing connector on the PCB is not that easy to replace (for the end user). The latter was a major problem with Mini-USB, where the contacts of the "sockets" failed and the cable side stayed OK. One of the design goals of Micro USB was, that the cable "plug" will fail and not the contacts of the PCB side. In my personal view, they reached that goal. A weakness of Micro-USB cables seems to be the rather poor springs that should hold the cable in the socket and that will fail easily, requiring a new cable more often than necessary. I had several cables that will just fall out of the device on minor movements within a year of usage.

If you want a truly reliable connector system go with military or industrial connectors.

Anyone remembers the IBM multi port Microchannel cards? They had a multi contact connector and a thick cable (going to the break out box) that stiff, you could use it to push back your truck. A colleague broke the card and the slot it was in by moving his PC, not minding the cable in the back... A more robust connector alone is not a solution for every situation.
And I have seen industrial/military grade devices where the user has "successfully contacted" a D-SUB or ribbon connector the wrong way. :clap: Do not use force, just grab a bigger hammer...

Regards, Bernd
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2020, 11:29:41 am »
And have had cable failures in all of them.  My observation is that the failure rate is more dependent on the user than on the configuration.  With a couple of family members able to generate high failure rates on the "respected" Apple products.
It's because apple bent the knee to goddamn stupid Greenpeace activists and doesn't use PVC since 2009. The result is cable insulation splitting after a few months of use which results in tons of e-waste filling landfills.

You may be right about a weakening of Apple's design.  But the differential failure rate applies to different users of the same products.  Some people are just hamfisted.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2020, 11:32:27 am »


This, more than anything, is why I love USB-C
I don't care about anything else, just this.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2020, 12:41:36 pm »
And have had cable failures in all of them. 

A failing cable is easy to replace, a failing connector on the PCB is not that easy to replace (for the end user). The latter was a major problem with Mini-USB, where the contacts of the "sockets" failed and the cable side stayed OK. One of the design goals of Micro USB was, that the cable "plug" will fail and not the contacts of the PCB side. In my personal view, they reached that goal. A weakness of Micro-USB cables seems to be the rather poor springs that should hold the cable in the socket and that will fail easily, requiring a new cable more often than necessary. I had several cables that will just fall out of the device on minor movements within a year of usage.

If you want a truly reliable connector system go with military or industrial connectors.

Anyone remembers the IBM multi port Microchannel cards? They had a multi contact connector and a thick cable (going to the break out box) that stiff, you could use it to push back your truck. A colleague broke the card and the slot it was in by moving his PC, not minding the cable in the back... A more robust connector alone is not a solution for every situation.
And I have seen industrial/military grade devices where the user has "successfully contacted" a D-SUB or ribbon connector the wrong way. :clap: Do not use force, just grab a bigger hammer...

Regards, Bernd

The old school GPIB parallel cables are also strong enough to be used as spare parts for your local suspension bridge!  :D

The downsides of such high quality are:  size, weight, and cost!
 

Online wraper

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2020, 04:11:52 pm »
And have had cable failures in all of them.  My observation is that the failure rate is more dependent on the user than on the configuration.  With a couple of family members able to generate high failure rates on the "respected" Apple products.
It's because apple bent the knee to goddamn stupid Greenpeace activists and doesn't use PVC since 2009. The result is cable insulation splitting after a few months of use which results in tons of e-waste filling landfills.

You may be right about a weakening of Apple's design.  But the differential failure rate applies to different users of the same products.  Some people are just hamfisted.
It's a wide known issue. And I haven't seen it on products from any other company. Cheapest knockoff cables last many times longer in this regard  :palm:. Before apple silently removed user rating from their website it was around 1 out of 5 stars for their cables.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 04:14:52 pm by wraper »
 

Offline asmi

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2020, 04:42:03 pm »
I love USB-C for power delivery. Previously I had boards which needs to be powered by various voltages (5V, 9V, 12V, so I had to buy different power supplies and remember which one to use when working with a board), now all of them use the same USB-C PD power supply and the board itself chooses the voltage it needs using simple 3$ MCU (STM32G071), and that addition doesn't take all that much space. If you don't require programmability, you can use CYPD3177 which allows setting required voltage with a few resistors, and is about $1.5 for single quantities.

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2020, 05:59:51 pm »
[...] apple silently removed user rating from their website [...]

Easier than fixing the problem!  :D
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2020, 06:43:30 pm »
I think this was discussed in another thread before.

The design may not be that robust, but it's not that bad a compromise actually. Can you think of a better design that would fit within the same volume? (Remember it's used in small products such as mobile phones...) If so, I think many people would be interested.

Regarding the PCB side, I personally would only consider SMD connectors that have mixed smd and through-hole pins. That's what I used in the only device I designed (so far) with an USB-C connector. They are significantly more stable mechanically-wise.

That said, I never had an USB-C connector failure so far with commercial devices, but I have with micro USB.
 

Offline ajb

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2020, 09:28:40 pm »
A lot of the complaints sound like a mismatch of expectations and a lack of comprehending the scope of design tradeoffs that have to happen for consumer electronics. 

USB is NOT an industrial connector.  It is NOT designed to be indestructable at any cost.  It's designed to cram a shitload of throughput and an impressive amount of power into the smallest possible space.  Small devices that demand tens of watts of power and gigabits of data sell, and so those parameters are worth prioritizing over a certain amount of ruggedness. 

If you think it's so bad, take a minute to understand the ACTUAL application requirements and then see if you can design something that better meets them.
 
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Offline ajb

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2020, 09:36:10 pm »
Whoop de doo, it's "symmetrical" so stupid lazy consumers who are too clumsy and lazy, don't plug it in the wrong way around. Don't see the issue tbh - when was the last time anyone complained that inserting a polarised mains plug into a wall outlet was "a problem"? The 12th of never is when.

I don't know about you, but every. single. time. I plug in a rectangular connector I have to look at the connector, look at the socket and see if it's the right way round.  Whether it's a micro B, full size A, or DP, or even a ribbon cable.  Oftentimes it's in low light or sometimes in a place I can't see.  You don't have to be a woo woo visionary to see that if you can solve that problem by designing a connector with 180d symmetry the life-time cumulative ease of use improvement is HUGE.  Calling "cOnSuMeRs" stupid and lazy isn't the sign of an engineering genius it's the sign of a dick.

Quote
Seriously? People are thick.

no u
 

Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2020, 11:12:49 pm »
Whoop de doo, it's "symmetrical" so stupid lazy consumers who are too clumsy and lazy, don't plug it in the wrong way around. Don't see the issue tbh - when was the last time anyone complained that inserting a polarised mains plug into a wall outlet was "a problem"? The 12th of never is when.

I don't know about you, but every. single. time. I plug in a rectangular connector I have to look at the connector, look at the socket and see if it's the right way round.  Whether it's a micro B, full size A, or DP, or even a ribbon cable.  Oftentimes it's in low light or sometimes in a place I can't see.  You don't have to be a woo woo visionary to see that if you can solve that problem by designing a connector with 180d symmetry the life-time cumulative ease of use improvement is HUGE.  Calling "cOnSuMeRs" stupid and lazy isn't the sign of an engineering genius it's the sign of a dick.

Quote
Seriously? People are thick.

no u
[/b]

?
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2020, 12:37:07 am »

[...]

I don't know about you, but every. single. time. I plug in a rectangular connector I have to look at the connector, look at the socket and see if it's the right way round.

[...]

Are you talking about the US mains plug that has one blade larger than the other, so it only goes in one way even though there are only two prongs on it?
 

Offline Kasper

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2020, 04:47:59 am »
I use magnetic usb adapters, they work great.  Had one in my phone for a few years before the housing broke when I dropped it. That was easy fix, unplug it and plug in a spare one.
 

Offline Berni

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2020, 08:56:33 am »
I use magnetic usb adapters, they work great.  Had one in my phone for a few years before the housing broke when I dropped it. That was easy fix, unplug it and plug in a spare one.

Yep that is one of the things i found with these magnetic USB adapters. The housing is essentially made from a magnet and as most strong magnets its as brittle as glass, so when you drop the phone and it happens to land on the connector the thing just breaks into pieces. But then again the whole cable only costs a few dollars from china, so no big deal. Buy another one and just swap it.

One issue a lot of these have tho is the contacts are fairly exposed, combined with the fact that they are magnetic makes them love to jump at any magnetic object. And given that most ferromagnetic things are also conductive (Such as keys) means that the pins get shorted. Tho most ports seam to handle pretty much any possible short (Even 5V into data lines) so its not that big of a practical problem, but it is pretty cringy when it happens.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2020, 03:02:11 pm »
Two words: planned obolescence.
Also, never underestimate the force of marketing. The docile lemmings need to be tricked into thinking that newer is better, so they will continue to be a source of profit.
You are right that those are words, and that there are two of them. But that’s where your correctness ends, since 99.9% of claims of planned obsolescence aren’t actually planned. Obsolescence due to technological progress isn’t the same thing as planned obsolescence. USB-C was created to solve multiple real-world complaints and limitations of prior USB ports. Now, I don’t think it actually succeeded all that well in solving most of them (other than being easier to insert since it’s rotationally symmetrical), but that’s not the point.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2020, 10:52:06 pm »
Many recent standards have been mechanically horrid; SATA and HDMI both lack positive retention.  With HDMI this might be considered a feature in an environment where the cord is likely to be pulled but I prefer that it not fall out of the back of my computer, which has happened several times.

Because of the fragility of the connector, the USB-C charging standard makes wireless charging look good.

On my camera, I have started transferring photos directly from the SD card because of fear that the mini-USB connector will be damaged through normal use.  I trust the SD card connector inside the camera more than the external mini-USB connector.
 

Offline peter-h

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2020, 08:26:22 am »
This is why cameras should support fast wifi but for some reason they don't... Also very much agree that USB-C insertion force is way too high and drives the wireless charging solution for phones. Especially in car holders, where if you push the phone hard enough to mate the USB-C you will pull the holder off its mounting :)

I agree re PTH connectors being more robust but the problem is that phones use thin PCBs - probably 0.8mm - and that will just break off if the connector doesn't get ripped out of it.

The correct solution is to secure the connector to the case moulding so it can't move. This is being done implicitly by e.g. Samsung whose recent phones are waterproof. Obviously they have to have the connector tightly gripped by the case moulding (integral to the case moulding actually) for that to work.
Z80 Z180 Z280 Z8 S8 8031 8051 H8/300 H8/500 80x86 90S1200 32F417
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2020, 09:07:58 am »
This is why cameras should support fast wifi but for some reason they don't...

I would like IrDA even more, but WiFi would be sufficient if I could get it for the right camera.  Selection is very poor and the options I have considered apparently only support uploading to the Cloud which is stupid.  The Cloud is a term for a server controlled by someone else.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2020, 12:58:53 pm »
Many recent standards have been mechanically horrid; SATA and HDMI both lack positive retention.  With HDMI this might be considered a feature in an environment where the cord is likely to be pulled but I prefer that it not fall out of the back of my computer, which has happened several times.

You're right about HDMI, but SATA is fine - not only are locking cables readily available, it was designed as a backplane interface. Everyone is simply using it wrong.

As far as USB-C goes, I have no idea what people are going on about with high insertion force - my experience is that it's lower than micro while retaining well. Nor has any fragility been a concern. But I'm not in the group of people who go through cables and ports every year or two..
 
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Offline sokoloff

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2020, 04:15:26 pm »
Many recent standards have been mechanically horrid; SATA and HDMI both lack positive retention.
SATA is a standard for a connector overwhelmingly (99.9+% I'd estimate) used inside of an enclosure. How much positive retention does it need?

(Secondarily, I have SATA cables with a spring-retention lock that works pretty well and works across a wide variety of motherboards and drives, so I wonder if it is actually part of the standard and is merely optional.)
 
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Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2020, 11:32:42 pm »
Many recent standards have been mechanically horrid; SATA and HDMI both lack positive retention.
SATA is a standard for a connector overwhelmingly (99.9+% I'd estimate) used inside of an enclosure. How much positive retention does it need?

(Secondarily, I have SATA cables with a spring-retention lock that works pretty well and works across a wide variety of motherboards and drives, so I wonder if it is actually part of the standard and is merely optional.)

Yeah, you're right - I mean why even bother with a connector shell, just rest the gold contacts on top of one another and wrap some gaffer tape round it  ;D - okay I am being facetious, but as much as you try to defend SATA connector design, it's ABSOLUTELY DIRE, and well we know it.
 


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