Author Topic: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.  (Read 17663 times)

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Online wraper

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2020, 03:42:20 am »
it's ABSOLUTELY DIRE, and well we know it.
It's only your uneducated opinion.
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2020, 04:04:27 am »
Many recent standards have been mechanically horrid; SATA and HDMI both lack positive retention.
SATA is a standard for a connector overwhelmingly (99.9+% I'd estimate) used inside of an enclosure. How much positive retention does it need?

(Secondarily, I have SATA cables with a spring-retention lock that works pretty well and works across a wide variety of motherboards and drives, so I wonder if it is actually part of the standard and is merely optional.)

Yeah, you're right - I mean why even bother with a connector shell, just rest the gold contacts on top of one another and wrap some gaffer tape round it  ;D - okay I am being facetious, but as much as you try to defend SATA connector design, it's ABSOLUTELY DIRE, and well we know it.

Perhaps if you had failure rate data to support your opinion.  I have only had minor problems with SATA cables, and those minor problems were difficulty in disconnecting.  Retention was too good.  Never had a data failure or cable failure.  Even though I use a mix of cables provided by mother board suppliers, disk suppliers and the cheapest ones I can find for sale.  But it is a small sample, and only covers about a decade. 
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2020, 04:34:11 am »
Many recent standards have been mechanically horrid; SATA and HDMI both lack positive retention.
SATA is a standard for a connector overwhelmingly (99.9+% I'd estimate) used inside of an enclosure. How much positive retention does it need?

Should be 100%, since the external version (eSATA) is a different connector!
 

Offline Berni

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2020, 05:14:02 am »
Id say SATA is a pretty good connector.

Pretty much all the cables i used had plenty enough retention force to not come out without actually grabbing the connector and pulling it off. I actually hate the SATA cables with the metal locking tabs installed since they can sometimes become pretty tricky to unplug when the cable is plugged into a motherboard with the SATA ports all packed together tightly or at a weird spot where stuff is in the way, making it difficult getting your hand in there to grip it properly to release the tab.

The only critique perhaps is that the connector can be a bit fragile at times due to it being all plastic. I had broke one or two SATA power connectors before while working in a tightly packed PC case and happened to accidentally snag on one of the power cables, resulting in the plastic connector on the end of that cable to split in half and fall out. It still worked, but the top and bottom half needed to be squeezed together for it to make contact and not just fall out of its mating connector. Sure i was the one being the clumsy idiot who put too much force on it, but pretty much every other connector used inside a PC would have easily survived at least twice as much force.
 
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Offline sokoloff

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2020, 11:44:05 am »
Many recent standards have been mechanically horrid; SATA and HDMI both lack positive retention.
SATA is a standard for a connector overwhelmingly (99.9+% I'd estimate) used inside of an enclosure. How much positive retention does it need?
Should be 100%, since the external version (eSATA) is a different connector!
Agreed, but have you never (or less than one time in a thousand) used a SATA connector with the case open and maybe with one of the drives not permanently mounted? I've averaged doing that at least once a year to upgrade a drive or otherwise while assembling/servicing a computer.

Many/most computer users will never do that. Enthusiasts and IT techs will do that far more often, so it's a use case that should be considered but probably not entirely optimized for or designed around as the primary use case.
 

Offline Doctorandus_P

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2020, 02:14:40 pm »
Just had an idea:

You can easily mod you USB-C connectors yourself.

First glue a small piece of steel to your laptop, phone or whatever your USB device is. Put 2 pieces of steel opposite to the connector. Up & Down, left & right.

Then, put a bit of vaseline or gease on the pieces of steel and the plastic around it.
Then: Put the cable into your device, and put a Neodymium magnet on each piece of steel.
Last: Glue the magnets to the cable, and let dry before removing.
 

Online wraper

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2020, 03:17:55 pm »
^Hopefully this is a joke.
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2020, 03:55:53 pm »
Just had an idea:

You can easily mod you USB-C connectors yourself.

First glue a small piece of steel to your laptop, phone or whatever your USB device is. Put 2 pieces of steel opposite to the connector. Up & Down, left & right.

Then, put a bit of vaseline or gease on the pieces of steel and the plastic around it.
Then: Put the cable into your device, and put a Neodymium magnet on each piece of steel.
Last: Glue the magnets to the cable, and let dry before removing.

Should that is the route I have to choose, with all that troubles, then I will do it "properly" by modding the whole thing into a real man connector  ::), such as my Tempest keyboard connector below which basically an USB keyboard.  >:D


Offline David Hess

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2020, 02:32:30 am »
Many recent standards have been mechanically horrid; SATA and HDMI both lack positive retention.  With HDMI this might be considered a feature in an environment where the cord is likely to be pulled but I prefer that it not fall out of the back of my computer, which has happened several times.

You're right about HDMI, but SATA is fine - not only are locking cables readily available, it was designed as a backplane interface. Everyone is simply using it wrong.

That is right; SATA connectors were designed for a backplane interface which did not require positive retention, so it was not included.  But they adopted it for other applications for which it was not designed properly.

If there was not a problem, then why did they add the retention clip later?  See below.

SATA is a standard for a connector overwhelmingly (99.9+% I'd estimate) used inside of an enclosure. How much positive retention does it need?

The majority is not always right, or even sane, unless you are a Puppeteer.  Obscure?

Quote
(Secondarily, I have SATA cables with a spring-retention lock that works pretty well and works across a wide variety of motherboards and drives, so I wonder if it is actually part of the standard and is merely optional.)

The spring retention mechanism was added later after it was realized that the design was flawed.  None of the oldest products which used SATA supported it, and I have some old motherboards and a pair of drives to demonstrate it.

Perhaps if you had failure rate data to support your opinion.  I have only had minor problems with SATA cables, and those minor problems were difficulty in disconnecting.  Retention was too good.  Never had a data failure or cable failure.  Even though I use a mix of cables provided by mother board suppliers, disk suppliers and the cheapest ones I can find for sale.  But it is a small sample, and only covers about a decade.

For a given operating time, I have had way more SATA connectors separate than IDC connectors.  With IDC connectors you have to struggle to separate them without damaging the cable.

 

Offline newbrain

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2020, 10:33:51 am »
The majority is not always right, or even sane, unless you are a Puppeteer.  Obscure?
On one hand, reference to oldish SF might be missed by many.
On the other hand, the few to catch it will be pleased.
On the gripping hand, it was not that obscure  ;)
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #60 on: September 27, 2020, 11:09:15 am »
I don't know about you, but every. single. time. I plug in a rectangular connector I have to look at the connector, look at the socket and see if it's the right way round.  Whether it's a micro B, full size A, or DP, or even a ribbon cable.  Oftentimes it's in low light or sometimes in a place I can't see.  You don't have to be a woo woo visionary to see that if you can solve that problem by designing a connector with 180d symmetry the life-time cumulative ease of use improvement is HUGE.

Reversible micro usb cable
https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/Cables/USB/63777-U2MCAB-02RR
 

Offline newbrain

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #61 on: September 27, 2020, 02:19:13 pm »
Reversible micro usb cable
https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/Cables/USB/63777-U2MCAB-02RR
Estimated connector life: 15 insertions (total, both ends), if you are a lucky person.
Guess how I know.
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 

Offline rvalente

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2020, 08:56:03 pm »
 This connector madness is driven by this non sense of making paper thin devices.

Who needs a 8 mm thick phone that you can barely hold becuase ia so slippery? After all we all throw a rubberized case. I would prefer a 12-15mm thick phone with a larger battery and space for a hugged connector.

Its a shame cat phones are so outaded in hw specs and expensives
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 08:57:42 pm by rvalente »
 
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Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2020, 10:32:22 pm »
This connector madness is driven by this non sense of making paper thin devices.

Who needs a 8 mm thick phone that you can barely hold becuase ia so slippery? After all we all throw a rubberized case. I would prefer a 12-15mm thick phone with a larger battery and space for a hugged connector.

Its a shame cat phones are so outaded in hw specs and expensives

Exactly. What "need" is served by a diminutive thickness? None. My (crap) Moto G7 Plus could be 2x as thick as it is now (with a Spigen rubber case on) and I wouldn't care a toss.
 

Offline ajb

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2020, 10:38:51 pm »
I don't know about you, but every. single. time. I plug in a rectangular connector I have to look at the connector, look at the socket and see if it's the right way round.  Whether it's a micro B, full size A, or DP, or even a ribbon cable.  Oftentimes it's in low light or sometimes in a place I can't see.  You don't have to be a woo woo visionary to see that if you can solve that problem by designing a connector with 180d symmetry the life-time cumulative ease of use improvement is HUGE.

Reversible micro usb cable
https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/Cables/USB/63777-U2MCAB-02RR
Sure, if it's possible to design a compatible reversible connector without having to remove so much material to defeat the keying that it's no longer durable enough for use, that's an okay solution.  But it would be better to design reversibility into the connector from the ground up.

Who needs a 8 mm thick phone that you can barely hold becuase ia so slippery? After all we all throw a rubberized case. I would prefer a 12-15mm thick phone with a larger battery and space for a hugged connector.

Sure, YOU would prefer a thicker phone, but that's clearly not what the overall market wants.  If it did, then we might see more and better phones similar to the Cat branded ones.  Whether or not the market is "wrong" about that is a silly thing to worry about, and calling consumers stupid for having different priorities than you do, as some in this thread are doing, is arrogant to the point of dickishness.  People like phones that fit easily in a pocket and have reversible connectors, and there's nothing wrong with that even if those aren't your top priorities in a mobile device.

Exactly. What "need" is served by a diminutive thickness? None.
Do you not carry your phone around?  Do you never put it in a pocket?  Because fitting in a pocket (or handbag or whatever) is a "need" that the vast majority of people who use smartphones have, and diminutive thickness absolutely serves that. 
 

Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2020, 11:14:44 pm »
I don't know about you, but every. single. time. I plug in a rectangular connector I have to look at the connector, look at the socket and see if it's the right way round.  Whether it's a micro B, full size A, or DP, or even a ribbon cable.  Oftentimes it's in low light or sometimes in a place I can't see.  You don't have to be a woo woo visionary to see that if you can solve that problem by designing a connector with 180d symmetry the life-time cumulative ease of use improvement is HUGE.

Reversible micro usb cable
https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/Cables/USB/63777-U2MCAB-02RR
Sure, if it's possible to design a compatible reversible connector without having to remove so much material to defeat the keying that it's no longer durable enough for use, that's an okay solution.  But it would be better to design reversibility into the connector from the ground up.

Who needs a 8 mm thick phone that you can barely hold becuase ia so slippery? After all we all throw a rubberized case. I would prefer a 12-15mm thick phone with a larger battery and space for a hugged connector.

Sure, YOU would prefer a thicker phone, but that's clearly not what the overall market wants.  If it did, then we might see more and better phones similar to the Cat branded ones.  Whether or not the market is "wrong" about that is a silly thing to worry about, and calling consumers stupid for having different priorities than you do, as some in this thread are doing, is arrogant to the point of dickishness.  People like phones that fit easily in a pocket and have reversible connectors, and there's nothing wrong with that even if those aren't your top priorities in a mobile device.

Exactly. What "need" is served by a diminutive thickness? None.
Do you not carry your phone around?  Do you never put it in a pocket?  Because fitting in a pocket (or handbag or whatever) is a "need" that the vast majority of people who use smartphones have, and diminutive thickness absolutely serves that.

"The market" doesn't know what it "wants", it gets TOLD "this is what we've decided, and you will enjoy it" and people dutifully follow, despite the sensationalist, provocative "outcry!" when a new design is announced.

OEM HQ decides that's what's being released, and that is that - don't delude yourself into thinking the consumer has a "choice" - the only choice they have is:

~ Thin

~ Razor thin

~ Mega, MEGA, 1 micron thin


Since "smart" phone mfrs ran out of features to sell you, all they have left to promote is plugs and sockets, wireless accessories and physical thickness!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 11:16:44 pm by eti »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2020, 11:22:55 pm »
I will call thin and raise you "no bezel".  So now I cannot hold the phone without covering part of the screen, or even triggering touch, and there is no  room at the top and bottom for speakers and microphones so the sound is worse.
 
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Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2020, 11:34:59 pm »
I will call thin and raise you "no bezel".  So now I cannot hold the phone without covering part of the screen, or even triggering touch, and there is no  room at the top and bottom for speakers and microphones so the sound is worse.

But it's "progress" (which, funnily, wasn't even mentioned or even slightly obsessed over until the "command signal" from consumer tech giant HQ was beamed out, via KeyNote, over the years  ;D) - show's how easily sold people are!
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2020, 11:40:52 pm »
My iPhone X is nicer than the iPhone 8 is nicer than the iPhone 6 is nicer than the iPhone 5 is much nicer than the iPhone 3GS that each replaced.

When cutting the grass I miss the headphone jack slightly (but have a cheap Bluetooth headset that works well enough).

Do I ever wish my phone was slower, thicker, heavier, or had a keyed charging connector? Not for a minute.
I'm glad that Apple keeps releasing new models so frequently. That lets me buy a nearly-new phone secondhand for significantly less than the newest model, use an inexpensive mobile provider (ting.com), and still enjoy a good phone experience.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2020, 12:33:13 am »
My iPhone X is nicer than the iPhone 8 is nicer than the iPhone 6 is nicer than the iPhone 5 is much nicer than the iPhone 3GS that each replaced.

When cutting the grass I miss the headphone jack slightly (but have a cheap Bluetooth headset that works well enough).

Do I ever wish my phone was slower, thicker, heavier, or had a keyed charging connector? Not for a minute.
I'm glad that Apple keeps releasing new models so frequently. That lets me buy a nearly-new phone secondhand for significantly less than the newest model, use an inexpensive mobile provider (ting.com), and still enjoy a good phone experience.

ting.com looks incredibly cheap...   What happens if you travel outside the USA, though?
 

Offline etiTopic starter

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2020, 12:45:56 am »
My iPhone X is nicer than the iPhone 8 is nicer than the iPhone 6 is nicer than the iPhone 5 is much nicer than the iPhone 3GS that each replaced.

When cutting the grass I miss the headphone jack slightly (but have a cheap Bluetooth headset that works well enough).

Do I ever wish my phone was slower, thicker, heavier, or had a keyed charging connector? Not for a minute.
I'm glad that Apple keeps releasing new models so frequently. That lets me buy a nearly-new phone secondhand for significantly less than the newest model, use an inexpensive mobile provider (ting.com), and still enjoy a good phone experience.

If Apple never released a "better" model, ergo no one ever knew about it, we'd all be contented, and none the wiser. This is a cycle of utter madness, and the difference is some can admit it and some just refuse to. This whole manufactured, highly contrived "upgrade" nonsense is precisely that. No one needs a new phone until the "old" one has worn into the ground. More consumerism "justified" by "reasons" people make up to convince themselves, and others, they "need it"  ;D
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 12:48:43 am by eti »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2020, 12:54:28 am »
My iPhone X is nicer than the iPhone 8 is nicer than the iPhone 6 is nicer than the iPhone 5 is much nicer than the iPhone 3GS that each replaced.

When cutting the grass I miss the headphone jack slightly (but have a cheap Bluetooth headset that works well enough).

Do I ever wish my phone was slower, thicker, heavier, or had a keyed charging connector? Not for a minute.
I'm glad that Apple keeps releasing new models so frequently. That lets me buy a nearly-new phone secondhand for significantly less than the newest model, use an inexpensive mobile provider (ting.com), and still enjoy a good phone experience.

If Apple never released a "better" model, ergo no one ever knew about it, we'd all be contented, and none the wiser. This is a cycle of utter madness, and the difference is some can admit it and some just refuse to. This whole manufactured, highly contrived "upgrade" nonsense is precisely that. No one needs a new phone until the "old" one has worn into the ground. More consumerism "justified" by "reasons" people make up to convince themselves, and others, they "need it"  ;D

You mean, like EEs "need" cool test equipment?  :D
 
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Offline sokoloff

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2020, 01:44:10 pm »
ting.com looks incredibly cheap...   What happens if you travel outside the USA, though?
(Before March,) I travel a lot for work. ting.com service works outside the US, but is relatively expensive, so I SIM-swap for trips. (That also keeps "clean" the bill to the company and the bill to me.)
 
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Online wraper

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2020, 02:00:18 pm »
I don't know about you, but every. single. time. I plug in a rectangular connector I have to look at the connector, look at the socket and see if it's the right way round.  Whether it's a micro B, full size A, or DP, or even a ribbon cable.  Oftentimes it's in low light or sometimes in a place I can't see.  You don't have to be a woo woo visionary to see that if you can solve that problem by designing a connector with 180d symmetry the life-time cumulative ease of use improvement is HUGE.

Reversible micro usb cable
https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/Cables/USB/63777-U2MCAB-02RR
That micro USB plug is very nice, especially considering that many micro USB sockets have metal backing on a piece holding contacts. USB host will be very thankful for shorting all of its pins. Which in many cases can kill chipset or CPU depending from where USB lines came.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 02:06:14 pm by wraper »
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: USB-C mechanical design is flimsy and pathetic.
« Reply #74 on: September 29, 2020, 09:14:21 pm »
I will call thin and raise you "no bezel".  So now I cannot hold the phone without covering part of the screen, or even triggering touch, and there is no  room at the top and bottom for speakers and microphones so the sound is worse.

But it's "progress" (which, funnily, wasn't even mentioned or even slightly obsessed over until the "command signal" from consumer tech giant HQ was beamed out, via KeyNote, over the years  ;D) - show's how easily sold people are!

Part of marketing is creating need where none exists.

Do I ever wish my phone was slower, thicker, heavier, or had a keyed charging connector? Not for a minute.

Would you trade a smaller iPhone for one with several times the operating time and battery life, better speakers, a better microphone, and better cameras?

The opportunity cost of thinner iPhones is worse operating time and battery life, worse speakers, a worse microphone, and worse cameras.
 
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