Author Topic: Using mains as a defibrillator.  (Read 9719 times)

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Offline XOIIO

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Using mains as a defibrillator.
« on: July 04, 2014, 06:43:27 pm »
Something I've always sort of wondered, say someone was working on an appliance, and got a shock strong enough to stop their heart. I imagine the time it would take an ambulance to arrive with a defibrillator might be too long, or maybe you live out in the country.

Basically, getting a real defibrillator will take too long, so what could you do?

Well, maybe, just maybe, you could pull the cord, cut/strip the wires, plug it back in, and use it to revive them?

I wonder if that sort of thing might work, if you applied the wires in the same positions they apply defibrillator paddles.

Also would be interesting to hear if you think it would work with 120v or 240v, since the voltages change in different regions.

Offline DmitryL

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2014, 06:48:33 pm »
You are late with your idea, it has already been implemented:
http://www.artlebedev.ru/everything/vilkus/

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Offline johansen

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2014, 06:51:04 pm »
voltages and currents are all wrong.

plus, i would imagine the defibrillators have IGBTs in them to pulse the power into the patient in a controlled manner.
as far as the voltages and currents.. take a look here
http://www.aerovox.com/Products/DefibrillatorCapacitors.aspx
 

Offline iRad

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2014, 06:51:15 pm »
Yeah, I think I saw that in an episode of MacGyver...  :-DD
 

Offline XOIIO

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2014, 06:53:35 pm »
Yeah, I think I saw that in an episode of MacGyver...  :-DD

Really? lol.

You are late with your idea, it has already been implemented:
http://www.artlebedev.ru/everything/vilkus/

... supplied with Darwin award certificate :)

Man, good gift for stupid people you want to get rid of.

Offline rob77

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2014, 06:55:54 pm »
using mains as a defibrillator is a very stupid idea. the 50/60Hz is one of the reasons why the heart stops.. you can't restart it with 50/60Hz current - you would definitely kill him that way.

the best is to call the ambulance and go ahead with the standard methods and try to revive the person till the ambulance arrives or the person's heart starts to beat and he/she starts to breathe - and even in case of successful rescue -  closely monitor the person till the ambulance arrives.
 

Offline XOIIO

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2014, 06:59:43 pm »
using mains as a defibrillator is a very stupid idea. the 50/60Hz is one of the reasons why the heart stops.. you can't restart it with 50/60Hz current - you would definitely kill him that way.

the best is to call the ambulance and go ahead with the standard methods and try to revive the person till the ambulance arrives or the person's heart starts to beat and he/she starts to breathe - and even in case of successful rescue -  closely monitor the person till the ambulance arrives.

Oh man lol, when posting this I totally forgot about the resuscitation techniques  :-DD Too much electronics on the brain.

Still, interesting to hear what people think on the subject.

Offline Joule Thief

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2014, 07:02:17 pm »
 :palm:

It's known as the "Ruby Sue" effect.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 07:10:54 pm by Joule Thief »
Perturb and observe.
 

Offline KJDS

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2014, 07:12:25 pm »
Whilst you might just survive a heart pumping at 4Hz, getting it to run at 50Hz would be similar to getting your car engine to run at 100,000 rpm.

Offline kolbep

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2014, 07:16:53 pm »
He must have been watching the Mr Bean episode, where he uses jumper cables connected to a streetlights wiring, to restart some blokes heart...
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Offline XOIIO

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2014, 07:24:22 pm »
You Canadians are a riot ( I include myself....being from Montreal :-DD)

Did you get the idea from Mission Impossible 3 when Tom Cruise needed to zap the implant in his brain when he was in a Chinese Dentist's office in Suzhou and his wife ( Katie Holmes) resuscitates him with the mains?

You Canadians are a riot ( I include myself....being from Montreal :-DD)

Did you get the idea from Mission Impossible 3 when Tom Cruise needed to zap the implant in his brain when he was in a Chinese Dentist's office in Suzhou and his wife ( Katie Holmes) resuscitates him with the mains?

I'll need to check both of those out lol

Whilst you might just survive a heart pumping at 4Hz, getting it to run at 50Hz would be similar to getting your car engine to run at 100,000 rpm.

Just imagine, you would be superman!

Offline con-f-use

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2014, 08:48:32 pm »
Something I've always sort of wondered, say someone was working on an appliance, and got a shock strong enough to stop their heart. I imagine the time it would take an ambulance to arrive with a defibrillator might be too long, or maybe you live out in the country.
A defibrillator does not magically start hearts when they stopped beating. Quiet the opposite is the case. No one will every use a defibrillator on an asystolic heart (flat line ECG). Defibrillators are used when the heart has gone out of sync, that is the different parts of the heart muscle are no longer contracting in the right rhythm relative to each other or are contracting wildly. The defibrillator then causes everything to contract simultaneously to exhaustion, thus stopping the heart. Then it is restarted with drugs or by the natural pacemaker. CPR until the ambulance comes is still the best bet.

That's the most common misconception in medicine and it pains me, every time I see it on Dr. House, Greys Anatomy or what ever stupid hospital soap you watch. Also the patient won't jerk when shocked. Using mains as a defibrillator will in any case do more harm than good. It's like trying to solder chips with a welding machine or cure migraine with a brick. If you by chance have bank of capacitors charged to 1000V with a bout 200 Joule of energy in them you can try discharging them through an inductor in series with the heart. But you'd still need the right timing.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 09:00:49 pm by con-f-use »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2014, 08:52:15 pm »
cure migranes with a brick.

Some days that doesn't seem like such a bad idea.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2014, 09:14:46 pm »
A defibrillator does not magically start hearts when they stopped beating. Quiet the opposite is the case. Defibrillators are used when the heart has gone out of sync, that is the different parts of the heart muscle are no longer contracting in the right rhythm relative to each other or are contracting wildly. The defibrillator then causes everything to contract heavily and simultaneously thus stopping the heart. Then it is restarted with drugs or in rarer cases starts on its own.

Almost right. It brings the cardiac muscle cells back "in sync" by depolarizing (Na+ ions moving into the cells) all of them simultaneously. It does not stop the heart.  Cardiac muscle cells have an "intrinsic rhythm".  The heart rate is normally set by a group of cells with the fastest intrinsic rhythm and depolarization/contraction of the rest of the cardiac muscle is coordinated  through a conduction system. 

As you say when the cardiac muscle is "out of sync" aka fibrillating - a defibrillator brings them back in sync. Heart only pauses for a second or two before spontaneously beating again- hopefully in a coordinated fashion.

Drugs can't "restart the heart" but can sometimes help with the defribrillation (though not very well). Usually just the electrical defibrillation is all that is needed and when a patient is "coded" you only use the defibrillator if they have a "shockable rhythm".  If there is no electrical activity at all - then chances of restoring that (with chest compressions, ventillation, drugs) is very slim...

Trying to use mains to defibrillate would be a good way to kill the cardiac muscle all together by passing too much current though it.....
 

Offline Lee697

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2014, 10:17:36 pm »
You would definitely polish off the patient, and probably electrocute yourself trying....
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2014, 10:43:41 pm »
Yeah, I think I saw that in an episode of MacGyver...  :-DD

Yep, I think it was at a church.  He used some lamp cord and two candlestick holders.
The larger the government, the smaller the citizen.
 

Offline XOIIO

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2014, 11:10:03 pm »
cure migranes with a brick.

Some days that doesn't seem like such a bad idea.

Man, no kidding.

Offline XOIIO

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2014, 11:12:38 pm »
Yeah, I think I saw that in an episode of MacGyver...  :-DD

Yep, I think it was at a church.  He used some lamp cord and two candlestick holders.

Oh man that sounds hilarious  :-DD

I bet he was touching the metal of the lamp holders too right?

Offline Stonent

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2014, 04:19:13 am »
Yeah, I think I saw that in an episode of MacGyver...  :-DD

Yep, I think it was at a church.  He used some lamp cord and two candlestick holders.

Oh man that sounds hilarious  :-DD

I bet he was touching the metal of the lamp holders too right?



Ok it was microphone cable? Would there be current there?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 04:21:59 am by Stonent »
The larger the government, the smaller the citizen.
 

Offline XOIIO

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2014, 04:31:58 am »
Yeah, I think I saw that in an episode of MacGyver...  :-DD

Yep, I think it was at a church.  He used some lamp cord and two candlestick holders.

Oh man that sounds hilarious  :-DD

I bet he was touching the metal of the lamp holders too right?



Ok it was microphone cable? Would there be current there?

Lol, alright he used rubber, but I didn't see him strip the wires. I doubt there would be much current in that cable.

Also, apparently clotting works because of magnetic fields?

Offline SeanB

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2014, 04:53:14 am »
48V phantom power, through 2 6k8 resistors. Might be enough to barely feel through wet skin.

Migraine cure is a hot shower, or an injection. Left cheek diclofenac 3ml, right cheek vitamin B complex and cortisone. Make sure the liquids are at body temperature just before injection, otherwise you can pass out from the shock. Done in 5 minutes. Otherwise there is an off label use of a certain anti psychotic drug, that is quite effective. That works in about 20 minutes.

I did tell the one medic that he would not be happy when he came in with a grin. 1- I will wake up. 2- I was senior rank. 3- I know where you stay. I did not say 4- Your boss would be upset, and she was very likeable, and has a mean streak. He would be cleaning sewers for months.
 

Offline nihilism

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2014, 05:08:28 am »
You are late with your idea, it has already been implemented:
http://www.artlebedev.ru/everything/vilkus/

... supplied with Darwin award certificate :)

Does anyone know where i can get an Australian version? It would make a great gift for some people i know.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2014, 09:28:41 am »
Mr Bean does it better.

http://youtu.be/z5yZMvWFid4



































« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 01:17:26 pm by G7PSK »
 

Offline Psi

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2014, 10:14:24 am »
Also, apparently clotting works because of magnetic fields?

Too be fair, that episode wasn't about a heart attack or anything you would normally use a defibrillator for.
It was about some compound used to assassinate people. The compound was given to someone and then later triggered using a magnetic field turning the compound into nylon and clogs the persons heart. Macgyvers idea was to induce an opposite field to counteract the one being used to trigger the compound.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 

Offline iRad

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Re: Using mains as a defibrillator.
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2014, 12:23:56 pm »
Seriously though, you just have to laugh...  :-DD
 


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