Author Topic: Vaccine  (Read 34147 times)

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Offline coppice

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #175 on: May 29, 2021, 12:11:52 pm »
I stopped listening at the point he starting talking about profit and the amount of vaccines children get, which are both irreverent to the UK. Children don't get that many vaccines here and the most commonly used COVID-19 vaccine, made by AstraZeneca hasn't made them any money. In fact they've lost money on its COVID vaccine.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/astrazeneca-lost-money-on-its-covid-19-vaccine-11619771934
Astra-Zeneca fully intended to make a killing with their vaccine. They have simply failed in their political moves, and not sold as much as they hoped they would.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #176 on: May 29, 2021, 12:34:53 pm »
True, without vaccines you would find most children would not have made it past the age of 5, seeing as the average family size would be 8 to 10 children, with perhaps only 2 making it to past puberty, and becoming adults. Vaccines changed that, as a single biggest change, where you would find that children did not die of disease before their first birthday, and this was an even bigger thing than hygiene, antibiotics and modern medicine based on them.

Easiest thing for the anti's is simply to allow them to believe that, but also tell them the choice they made is going to mean that they will also be denied free hospital treatment if they get ill, solving the problem. They will have to pay the cash price, and will not be able to avoid the result by declaring bankruptcy afterwards.

BTW, I am alive thanks to vaccines, I would not have made it past 3 if it were not for antibiotics and tetanus shots, I still remember the red lines growing up my leg from that episode. Yes I still get a booster shot every 10 years or so for tetanus, and thankfully never had it ever again. Locally there was a move to knock down the century old stables and make it a soccer academy, wonder just how they are going to remove all the century plus of tetanus that is soaked into the walls, flooring, roof, and what they will be using as fields outside. Hope all the players are up to date on that shot.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #177 on: May 29, 2021, 12:59:50 pm »
True, without vaccines you would find most children would not have made it past the age of 5, seeing as the average family size would be 8 to 10 children, with perhaps only 2 making it to past puberty, and becoming adults. Vaccines changed that, as a single biggest change, where you would find that children did not die of disease before their first birthday, and this was an even bigger thing than hygiene, antibiotics and modern medicine based on them.
A lot of the growth of the world's population in the 20th century seems to have come the lag between the death rate of children plummeting, and people's attitudes about how many children to have adjusting accordingly.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #178 on: May 29, 2021, 01:08:17 pm »
Easiest thing for the anti's
#

Beware how you black and white label people.
There are huge numbers of people who are "pro vaccine" but hesitant to get an entirely new form of vaccine that still only has emergency approval status and is not yet fully approved.
I know many people like this personally, and I do not disparage them for it nor do I label them, because I know they aren't "anti-vaxxers".
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #179 on: May 29, 2021, 01:17:24 pm »
Easiest thing for the anti's
#

Beware how you black and white label people.
There are huge numbers of people who are "pro vaccine" but hesitant to get an entirely new form of vaccine that still only has emergency approval status and is not yet fully approved.
I know many people like this personally, and I do not disparage them for it nor do I label them, because I know they aren't "anti-vaxxers".
I think most engineers should be at least a little hesitant about covid vaccines. We have plenty of experience of how wonderfully well most new technologies rushed to market work out.... except with a vaccine you can't just throw the crappy products in the bin.

Look at this politicised definition - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-vaxxer So, objecting to state compulsion makes you anti-vax?
 

Offline TopLoser

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #180 on: May 29, 2021, 01:26:56 pm »
AZ 4 weeks ago and Pfizer yesterday. It’s France, who cares! Both gave me the same sore arm for a day, no other side effects.

Got my QR coded fully vaccinated certificate an hour after the last jab and will be using that to cross the border from France into Spain after the 7th June when they accept the certificate instead of a test result. Rest of the EU will follow on at the end of June and no more endless tests needed.
 
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Offline SeanB

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #181 on: May 29, 2021, 01:28:33 pm »
Easiest thing for the anti's
#

Beware how you black and white label people.
There are huge numbers of people who are "pro vaccine" but hesitant to get an entirely new form of vaccine that still only has emergency approval status and is not yet fully approved.
I know many people like this personally, and I do not disparage them for it nor do I label them, because I know they aren't "anti-vaxxers".

True, but even now with the emergency approval, the number who have side effects is minimal. 7 in a million dying after having it, and not for the usual reasons, is still a much better option than having at least 6 out of 100 dying from it. Lost 2 friends from it already, and at least a dozen people I know personally have died from it as well, including whole families.

I will take the vaccine, though here it is likely only going to be available some time between September 2021 to September never. Already made a booking with my local pharmacies if they get some in to call. Only people getting at the moment are those over 60, and healthcare workers, and the clotted cream. Even then slow delivery, and very variable numbers, plus of course we get the pleasure of having one strain named after us, and the other being present as well, along with the "common" type. You there on the Big Island are very lucky.

Plus the government here is not telling you to get it, it is free, and you are not forced to take it, though likely your employer will also give you the option of get it or find another job, seeing as in most cases you will want a healthy workplace.
 
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Offline Miti

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #182 on: May 29, 2021, 01:31:23 pm »
BTW, I am alive thanks to vaccines, I would not have made it past 3 if it were not for antibiotics and tetanus shots, I still remember the red lines growing up my leg from that episode. Yes I still get a booster shot every 10 years or so for tetanus, and thankfully never had it ever again. Locally there was a move to knock down the century old stables and make it a soccer academy, wonder just how they are going to remove all the century plus of tetanus that is soaked into the walls, flooring, roof, and what they will be using as fields outside. Hope all the players are up to date on that shot.

Funny that you mention the tetanus shot. I've got mild IBS from it. When I was a child I stepped on a rusty nail and the doctor gave me a tetanus shot. Soon after, my guts went crazy for few days. It never went away completely to this day. It got more tolerable, but never went away.

Easiest thing for the anti's is simply to allow them to believe that, but also tell them the choice they made is going to mean that they will also be denied free hospital treatment if they get ill, solving the problem. They will have to pay the cash price, and will not be able to avoid the result by declaring bankruptcy afterwards.


Can't agree with you more... but then we'll have to include the smokers, the drunk, the pot heads, those who eat at McDonalds and many other fast food restaurants, those that don't eat organic food, GMO and full of pesticides, those that don't exercise, the obese, those that don't follow a healthy sleep schedule... what else?
You're going down the rabbit hole pretty fast here.
I don't think the infectious diseases that the vaccines are meant to prevent are the biggest burden to the healthcare system.
I'm not debating this any more, I just wanted to present my point of view.

Miti out!
Fear does not stop death, it stops life.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #183 on: May 29, 2021, 01:40:15 pm »
I got the first jab 10 days ago... Astra Zeneca. No issues. About one week from a phone booking to getting the jab. Our country had been pretty much virus free for several months.

But the Indian variant of the Chinese virus hit us a few days ago, and our state is now in full lock down for at least seven days because there are around 36 people infected. All the people who got complacent about getting the jab are now panicking and the government's online booking service has crashed - its a bit of a fiasco. I can sit back and relax and just work home. :popcorn:
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #184 on: May 29, 2021, 01:45:51 pm »
Easiest thing for the anti's
#

Beware how you black and white label people.
There are huge numbers of people who are "pro vaccine" but hesitant to get an entirely new form of vaccine that still only has emergency approval status and is not yet fully approved.
That is a good point but the reality is that there is no good choice here. Short term it is clear that vaccinating people saves more lifes compared not doing so. Long term we don't know it yet. A number of people (starting from 20 years old!) who recover from Covid-19 appear to have long lasting effects from it and will require medical care and/or will be mildly disabled for the rest of their lives. We'll have to see how that balances against the long term effects from the vaccinations.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 01:49:18 pm by nctnico »
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Offline SeanB

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #185 on: May 29, 2021, 01:55:23 pm »
That is a good point but the reality is that there is no good choice here. Short term it is clear that vaccinating people saves more lifes compared not doing so. Long term we don't know it yet. A number of people (starting from 20 years old!) who recover from Covid-19 appear to have long lasting effects from it and will require medical care and/or will be mildly disabled for the rest of their lives. We'll have to see how that balances against the long term effects from the vaccinations.

True, if you have existing immune issues you get long Covid, know somebody like that, lucky for her she survived as well, but still is suffering after effects. Unlike her family, where there now is a new row of plaques on the wall. Hits old, hits young, kills one in 20 or so, and disables 1 in 200 or so. I probably have had it as well, because the flu last year was something that put me down for 2 weeks, not at all usual. Test  by nasal swabs though has up to 30% error rate either way, unless you do the antibody tests.
 

Offline G7PSK

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #186 on: May 29, 2021, 01:57:09 pm »
I really don't understand why people are so against the idea of mandated Covid vaccination especialy for foreign travel after all for many countries it is already obligatory for things like yellow fever, Hepatitis and typhoid. I know people who willingly take these shots to go on holiday and carry the car but don't want  covid on the same list even though they already have had the shot.
 
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Offline madires

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #187 on: May 29, 2021, 02:26:37 pm »
A team at Uni Frankfurt investigating blood clots caused by COVID-19 viral vector vaccines thinks it found the mechanism behind the rare side effect. They say that it should be possible to modify the viral vector vaccines to avoid triggering the blood clots.
Link: https://www.euronews.com/2021/05/27/why-are-aztrazeneca-and-j-j-vaccines-causing-blood-clots-scientists-claim-they-have-the-an
 
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Offline DrG

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #188 on: May 29, 2021, 02:27:11 pm »
As soon as I became eligible, I spent an hour or more a day searching for an appointment. Within a few weeks, I received the first dose and three weeks later, the second dose of an mRNA vaccine. Undesirable effects were minimal after the first dose (site pain) and after the second dose about 18-24 h of general fatigue and some myalgia. Basically, I didn’t do much during that time other than lying around, but it was no big deal and resolved completely.

Approval of any vaccine is country dependent but is always an evaluation of the benefits versus the risks and potential risks.

In the US:

Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) is only granted when there is a declared state of emergency and no other approved treatment of that kind exists. In this case, it means no other approved vaccine; it does not mean different kinds of treatments.

With an EUA, the manufacturers cannot control distribution as they can with a fully approved product. If the state of emergency ends, they can’t market the product at all without having full approval (some kind of compassionate use possibility exists, at least theoretically).

In general, the difference between EUA and full approval (FA) is the number of people studied and the length of time they are studied. Again, in general, this means the Phase III and beyond trials as well as post-approval use.

A big part of the EUA is open and public discussion of the data collected thus far (and the data that has not yet been collected) with many independent (non-Government and non-company) physicians and scientists. I watched more than 24 hours of such approval meetings and discussions and much more was available.

Evaluation consists of the product itself, any additional compounds, particularly adjuvants and all of the manufacturing processes involved.

I believe Pfizer has applied for FA (or is in the process of doing so).  I would expect others to follow if they have not already done so.

Along with FA is the labeling which includes restrictions and contraindications.

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained
https://vaccine.unchealthcare.org/science/vaccine-approval/whats-the-difference-between-fda-emergency-use-authorization-and-fda-approval/
https://www.adventhealth.com/blog/coronavirus-vaccine-eua-vs-fda-approval
https://www.verywellhealth.com/pfizer-and-biontech-seeks-fda-full-approval-5186423

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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #189 on: May 29, 2021, 02:50:54 pm »
I stopped listening at the point he starting talking about profit and the amount of vaccines children get, which are both irreverent to the UK. Children don't get that many vaccines here and the most commonly used COVID-19 vaccine, made by AstraZeneca hasn't made them any money. In fact they've lost money on its COVID vaccine.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/astrazeneca-lost-money-on-its-covid-19-vaccine-11619771934
Astra-Zeneca fully intended to make a killing with their vaccine. They have simply failed in their political moves, and not sold as much as they hoped they would.

AZ are required to sell with no profit during the pandemic period. They would have made no money even if they hadn't monumentally screwed up.
 

Online langwadt

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #190 on: May 29, 2021, 02:53:20 pm »
Easiest thing for the anti's
#

Beware how you black and white label people.
There are huge numbers of people who are "pro vaccine" but hesitant to get an entirely new form of vaccine that still only has emergency approval status and is not yet fully approved.
I know many people like this personally, and I do not disparage them for it nor do I label them, because I know they aren't "anti-vaxxers".

True, but even now with the emergency approval, the number who have side effects is minimal. 7 in a million dying after having it, and not for the usual reasons, is still a much better option than having at least 6 out of 100 dying from it. Lost 2 friends from it already, and at least a dozen people I know personally have died from it as well, including whole families.

a risk of 6 in 100 would be the very old or with other serious health issues. For those any risk in a vaccine is negligible. 
When they stopped using AZ here the numbers were ~1:40000 making the vaccine a bigger risk that the disease for anyone under ~40

 

Offline james_s

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #191 on: May 29, 2021, 05:39:49 pm »
I really don't understand why people are so against the idea of mandated Covid vaccination especialy for foreign travel after all for many countries it is already obligatory for things like yellow fever, Hepatitis and typhoid. I know people who willingly take these shots to go on holiday and carry the car but don't want  covid on the same list even though they already have had the shot.

People don't like change and they don't like to be told what to do. If you required everyone to take a free sack of money a handful of people would get angry and refuse it and demand a choice in the matter. I know people who would cut off their own nose to spite their face.
 

Offline magic

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #192 on: May 29, 2021, 06:16:25 pm »
I really don't understand why people X.
I know people who X.
Ask the people who X, not an electronics forum ;)

But I might be X myself, so if you must know: I don't trust technologies rushed to market and I don't trust career politicians.

And I'm not okay with mandatory vaccinations for anything. I have heard (IRL, not on reddit) of rare side effects even to some accepted mainstream vaccines and they may run in a family and people still have no way to opt out even if they know they are at risk. I would prefer if people who are worried protected themselves and let Darwin run his course with the rest.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #193 on: May 29, 2021, 06:18:26 pm »
Easiest thing for the anti's
#

Beware how you black and white label people.
There are huge numbers of people who are "pro vaccine" but hesitant to get an entirely new form of vaccine that still only has emergency approval status and is not yet fully approved.
I know many people like this personally, and I do not disparage them for it nor do I label them, because I know they aren't "anti-vaxxers".

True, but even now with the emergency approval, the number who have side effects is minimal. 7 in a million dying after having it, and not for the usual reasons, is still a much better option than having at least 6 out of 100 dying from it. Lost 2 friends from it already, and at least a dozen people I know personally have died from it as well, including whole families.

a risk of 6 in 100 would be the very old or with other serious health issues. For those any risk in a vaccine is negligible. 
When they stopped using AZ here the numbers were ~1:40000 making the vaccine a bigger risk that the disease for anyone under ~40
As mentioned on numerous occasions, it's not just death which is the problem. There's a significant risks of long term health problems, due to COVID-19.

Those numbers will be based on the risk of someone contracting the disease, not just those of complications due to the vaccine. The risk vs benefit ratio of the vaccine not depends on the age and sex of the person, but the percentage of the population infected. In areas with high infection rates and prevalence, it makes more sense to have any vaccine. If there's no virus around, it's obviously better not to be vaccinated. The problem is, the infection rate can vary, so it probably makes sense for most people to be vaccinated in the long term.

I think a big mistake is not taking the sex of the person into account. Complications due to the AZ are higher in young women and those due to the Pfizer are higher in young men. I think the safety of the Pfizer is exaggerated, as it's a for profit vaccine and the danger of the AZ overplayed, as it's much cheaper. Being a male aged 39, I looked through the data and decided I'd prefer the AZ, rather than the Pfizer, contrary to the UK government's advice and fortunately I was able to get it.

BTW, I am alive thanks to vaccines, I would not have made it past 3 if it were not for antibiotics and tetanus shots, I still remember the red lines growing up my leg from that episode. Yes I still get a booster shot every 10 years or so for tetanus, and thankfully never had it ever again. Locally there was a move to knock down the century old stables and make it a soccer academy, wonder just how they are going to remove all the century plus of tetanus that is soaked into the walls, flooring, roof, and what they will be using as fields outside. Hope all the players are up to date on that shot.

Funny that you mention the tetanus shot. I've got mild IBS from it. When I was a child I stepped on a rusty nail and the doctor gave me a tetanus shot. Soon after, my guts went crazy for few days. It never went away completely to this day. It got more tolerable, but never went away.

Easiest thing for the anti's is simply to allow them to believe that, but also tell them the choice they made is going to mean that they will also be denied free hospital treatment if they get ill, solving the problem. They will have to pay the cash price, and will not be able to avoid the result by declaring bankruptcy afterwards.


Can't agree with you more... but then we'll have to include the smokers, the drunk, the pot heads, those who eat at McDonalds and many other fast food restaurants, those that don't eat organic food, GMO and full of pesticides, those that don't exercise, the obese, those that don't follow a healthy sleep schedule... what else?
You're going down the rabbit hole pretty fast here.
I don't think the infectious diseases that the vaccines are meant to prevent are the biggest burden to the healthcare system.
I'm not debating this any more, I just wanted to present my point of view.

Miti out!
Well GMO isn't always unhealthy and laden with pesticides. If crops are genetically engineered to be resistant to certain pests and diseases, fewer pesticides are required. The problem is when a crop is genetically engineered to be resistant to a herbicide, used to kill all the weeds, results in higher levels of pesticides.

I do find it funny that many who refuse the vaccine are those who take plenty of other health risks: overweight, poor diet, smoking, heavy drinking etc. I know one idiot who's overweight, worried about catching COVID, yet refuses to get vaccinated and won't allow his children to go to school, or mix with other children. You can't make it up.  :palm: Don't get my wrong, I know that's not everyone who won't get vaccinated, but it seems like the majority of them.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #194 on: May 29, 2021, 06:35:15 pm »
Ask the people who X, not an electronics forum ;)

But I might be X myself, so if you must know: I don't trust technologies rushed to market and I don't trust career politicians.

And I'm not okay with mandatory vaccinations for anything. I have heard (IRL, not on reddit) of rare side effects even to some accepted mainstream vaccines and they may run in a family and people still have no way to opt out even if they know they are at risk. I would prefer if people who are worried protected themselves and let Darwin run his course with the rest.


The vaccines were not just rushed out with no testing, and it is not entirely new territory. So far it has been a great success, going by the data they are much safer than many OTC medications that people take without thinking. All sorts of stuff has rare side effects, people die all the time from food allergies or from choking on food, or all manner of other freak incidents, some apparently healthy people suddenly drop dead for no obvious reason. Serious side effects from any of the Covid vaccines have been incredibly rare, but every single one of them makes the news. The vaccines were not developed by politicians so it shouldn't matter if you trust politicians, they were developed by scientists and engineers who know what they're doing and have some skin in the game.

You are free to opt out so long as you stay isolated somewhere and only physically interact with other people who choose not to get vaccinated, understand the risk and do not mingle with the rest of us. If you want to participate in society then get vaccinated, not doing so is not just a risk to you (I don't care if you want to risk yourself), it is a risk to everyone else and it takes an incredibly selfish and self absorbed person to not realize this or not care. People with your attitude are going to cause this pandemic to drag on much longer than it needs to and most likely Covid is going to keep on circulating since enough people are going to skip being vaccinated to allow that.

I suppose a reasonable alternative is let people refuse to be vaccinated, but hold them legally liable if it can be shown that they transmitted the virus to somebody else who later got seriously ill or died. Charging them with negligent homicide seems reasonable to me in the case of someone dying, or sue for lost wages, medical expenses, etc. When a person makes selfish choices based on ignorance and misinformation that end up resulting in harm to others there should be consequences and it should hurt.
 
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Offline Miti

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #195 on: May 29, 2021, 06:56:34 pm »
I suppose a reasonable alternative is let people refuse to be vaccinated, but hold them legally liable if it can be shown that they transmitted the virus to somebody else who later got seriously ill or died. Charging them with negligent homicide seems reasonable to me in the case of someone dying, or sue for lost wages, medical expenses, etc. When a person makes selfish choices based on ignorance and misinformation that end up resulting in harm to others there should be consequences and it should hurt.

Would you be willing to accept the same punishment if within a year 40% of vaccinated develop autoimmune diseases?
Fear does not stop death, it stops life.
 

Online Gyro

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #196 on: May 29, 2021, 09:25:06 pm »
Look at the situation in India (and some other countries) over the past few weeks and you realise that reasonably easy access to the vaccines and non-overwhelmed health systems is a privilege.

It's fine for people to do the (rather obvious) maths when deciding whether or not to be 'coerced' into being vaccinated, but you need to remember that these Darwin award candidates, if allowed to reach sufficient numbers (due to conspiracy theories or whatever), increase the danger of taking others in the population with them. By clogging up the health systems they also take vital resources away from the treatment of all the other conditions that normally prey on us, Cancer, heart disease, etc.

Of course there should be, and are, exceptions for people with specific medical risks (although with the range of different vaccines available, it ought to be possible to protect many of them). The people intent on exercising their 'free will' for no specific medical reason put these poor folks at increased risk too.

It is essential to get the incidence of the virus in the population as low as possible (symptomatic or not) to minimise the number of mutations and new variants developing. We just need one new variant that successfully sidesteps the existing vaccines and we're all up shit creek (again).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 09:27:56 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #197 on: May 29, 2021, 09:45:38 pm »
I suppose a reasonable alternative is let people refuse to be vaccinated, but hold them legally liable if it can be shown that they transmitted the virus to somebody else who later got seriously ill or died. Charging them with negligent homicide seems reasonable to me in the case of someone dying, or sue for lost wages, medical expenses, etc. When a person makes selfish choices based on ignorance and misinformation that end up resulting in harm to others there should be consequences and it should hurt.

Would you be willing to accept the same punishment if within a year 40% of vaccinated develop autoimmune diseases?

What's your basis for suggesting "40% of vaccinated develop autoimmune diseases"? Is that a Kennedy BS thing?
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #198 on: May 29, 2021, 09:52:12 pm »
I suppose a reasonable alternative is let people refuse to be vaccinated, but hold them legally liable if it can be shown that they transmitted the virus to somebody else who later got seriously ill or died. Charging them with negligent homicide seems reasonable to me in the case of someone dying, or sue for lost wages, medical expenses, etc. When a person makes selfish choices based on ignorance and misinformation that end up resulting in harm to others there should be consequences and it should hurt.

Would you be willing to accept the same punishment if within a year 40% of vaccinated develop autoimmune diseases?
How many vaccines have had that higher risk of autoimmune diseases, after a year?

As far as I'm aware, chronic health conditions due to vaccines tend to occur within the first couple of weeks of the dose, not spring up years later. The most risky vaccines are those which contain, attenuated, live virus, which isn't the case for any of the currently approved COVID-19 vaccines.
 
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Offline radar_macgyver

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #199 on: May 29, 2021, 10:42:49 pm »
One possible "market driven" approach would be for insurance premiums to go *way* up for people who choose to not be vaccinated (as opposed to people who can't for various medical reasons). That will very quickly incentivize the "muh freedoms" folks. The underwriters will have this info, so I'd be surprised if they aren't doing it already.
 


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