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Vaccine
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langwadt:

--- Quote from: SeanB on May 29, 2021, 01:28:33 pm ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on May 29, 2021, 01:08:17 pm ---
--- Quote from: SeanB on May 29, 2021, 12:34:53 pm ---Easiest thing for the anti's
--- End quote ---
#

Beware how you black and white label people.
There are huge numbers of people who are "pro vaccine" but hesitant to get an entirely new form of vaccine that still only has emergency approval status and is not yet fully approved.
I know many people like this personally, and I do not disparage them for it nor do I label them, because I know they aren't "anti-vaxxers".

--- End quote ---

True, but even now with the emergency approval, the number who have side effects is minimal. 7 in a million dying after having it, and not for the usual reasons, is still a much better option than having at least 6 out of 100 dying from it. Lost 2 friends from it already, and at least a dozen people I know personally have died from it as well, including whole families.

--- End quote ---

a risk of 6 in 100 would be the very old or with other serious health issues. For those any risk in a vaccine is negligible. 
When they stopped using AZ here the numbers were ~1:40000 making the vaccine a bigger risk that the disease for anyone under ~40

james_s:

--- Quote from: G7PSK on May 29, 2021, 01:57:09 pm ---I really don't understand why people are so against the idea of mandated Covid vaccination especialy for foreign travel after all for many countries it is already obligatory for things like yellow fever, Hepatitis and typhoid. I know people who willingly take these shots to go on holiday and carry the car but don't want  covid on the same list even though they already have had the shot.

--- End quote ---

People don't like change and they don't like to be told what to do. If you required everyone to take a free sack of money a handful of people would get angry and refuse it and demand a choice in the matter. I know people who would cut off their own nose to spite their face.
magic:

--- Quote from: G7PSK on May 29, 2021, 01:57:09 pm ---I really don't understand why people X.
I know people who X.

--- End quote ---
Ask the people who X, not an electronics forum ;)

But I might be X myself, so if you must know: I don't trust technologies rushed to market and I don't trust career politicians.

And I'm not okay with mandatory vaccinations for anything. I have heard (IRL, not on reddit) of rare side effects even to some accepted mainstream vaccines and they may run in a family and people still have no way to opt out even if they know they are at risk. I would prefer if people who are worried protected themselves and let Darwin run his course with the rest.
Zero999:

--- Quote from: langwadt on May 29, 2021, 02:53:20 pm ---
--- Quote from: SeanB on May 29, 2021, 01:28:33 pm ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on May 29, 2021, 01:08:17 pm ---
--- Quote from: SeanB on May 29, 2021, 12:34:53 pm ---Easiest thing for the anti's
--- End quote ---
#

Beware how you black and white label people.
There are huge numbers of people who are "pro vaccine" but hesitant to get an entirely new form of vaccine that still only has emergency approval status and is not yet fully approved.
I know many people like this personally, and I do not disparage them for it nor do I label them, because I know they aren't "anti-vaxxers".

--- End quote ---

True, but even now with the emergency approval, the number who have side effects is minimal. 7 in a million dying after having it, and not for the usual reasons, is still a much better option than having at least 6 out of 100 dying from it. Lost 2 friends from it already, and at least a dozen people I know personally have died from it as well, including whole families.

--- End quote ---

a risk of 6 in 100 would be the very old or with other serious health issues. For those any risk in a vaccine is negligible. 
When they stopped using AZ here the numbers were ~1:40000 making the vaccine a bigger risk that the disease for anyone under ~40

--- End quote ---
As mentioned on numerous occasions, it's not just death which is the problem. There's a significant risks of long term health problems, due to COVID-19.

Those numbers will be based on the risk of someone contracting the disease, not just those of complications due to the vaccine. The risk vs benefit ratio of the vaccine not depends on the age and sex of the person, but the percentage of the population infected. In areas with high infection rates and prevalence, it makes more sense to have any vaccine. If there's no virus around, it's obviously better not to be vaccinated. The problem is, the infection rate can vary, so it probably makes sense for most people to be vaccinated in the long term.

I think a big mistake is not taking the sex of the person into account. Complications due to the AZ are higher in young women and those due to the Pfizer are higher in young men. I think the safety of the Pfizer is exaggerated, as it's a for profit vaccine and the danger of the AZ overplayed, as it's much cheaper. Being a male aged 39, I looked through the data and decided I'd prefer the AZ, rather than the Pfizer, contrary to the UK government's advice and fortunately I was able to get it.


--- Quote from: Miti on May 29, 2021, 01:31:23 pm ---
--- Quote from: SeanB on May 29, 2021, 12:34:53 pm ---BTW, I am alive thanks to vaccines, I would not have made it past 3 if it were not for antibiotics and tetanus shots, I still remember the red lines growing up my leg from that episode. Yes I still get a booster shot every 10 years or so for tetanus, and thankfully never had it ever again. Locally there was a move to knock down the century old stables and make it a soccer academy, wonder just how they are going to remove all the century plus of tetanus that is soaked into the walls, flooring, roof, and what they will be using as fields outside. Hope all the players are up to date on that shot.

--- End quote ---

Funny that you mention the tetanus shot. I've got mild IBS from it. When I was a child I stepped on a rusty nail and the doctor gave me a tetanus shot. Soon after, my guts went crazy for few days. It never went away completely to this day. It got more tolerable, but never went away.


--- Quote from: SeanB on May 29, 2021, 12:34:53 pm ---Easiest thing for the anti's is simply to allow them to believe that, but also tell them the choice they made is going to mean that they will also be denied free hospital treatment if they get ill, solving the problem. They will have to pay the cash price, and will not be able to avoid the result by declaring bankruptcy afterwards.

--- End quote ---


Can't agree with you more... but then we'll have to include the smokers, the drunk, the pot heads, those who eat at McDonalds and many other fast food restaurants, those that don't eat organic food, GMO and full of pesticides, those that don't exercise, the obese, those that don't follow a healthy sleep schedule... what else?
You're going down the rabbit hole pretty fast here.
I don't think the infectious diseases that the vaccines are meant to prevent are the biggest burden to the healthcare system.
I'm not debating this any more, I just wanted to present my point of view.

Miti out!

--- End quote ---
Well GMO isn't always unhealthy and laden with pesticides. If crops are genetically engineered to be resistant to certain pests and diseases, fewer pesticides are required. The problem is when a crop is genetically engineered to be resistant to a herbicide, used to kill all the weeds, results in higher levels of pesticides.

I do find it funny that many who refuse the vaccine are those who take plenty of other health risks: overweight, poor diet, smoking, heavy drinking etc. I know one idiot who's overweight, worried about catching COVID, yet refuses to get vaccinated and won't allow his children to go to school, or mix with other children. You can't make it up.  :palm: Don't get my wrong, I know that's not everyone who won't get vaccinated, but it seems like the majority of them.
james_s:

--- Quote from: magic on May 29, 2021, 06:16:25 pm ---Ask the people who X, not an electronics forum ;)

But I might be X myself, so if you must know: I don't trust technologies rushed to market and I don't trust career politicians.

And I'm not okay with mandatory vaccinations for anything. I have heard (IRL, not on reddit) of rare side effects even to some accepted mainstream vaccines and they may run in a family and people still have no way to opt out even if they know they are at risk. I would prefer if people who are worried protected themselves and let Darwin run his course with the rest.

--- End quote ---


The vaccines were not just rushed out with no testing, and it is not entirely new territory. So far it has been a great success, going by the data they are much safer than many OTC medications that people take without thinking. All sorts of stuff has rare side effects, people die all the time from food allergies or from choking on food, or all manner of other freak incidents, some apparently healthy people suddenly drop dead for no obvious reason. Serious side effects from any of the Covid vaccines have been incredibly rare, but every single one of them makes the news. The vaccines were not developed by politicians so it shouldn't matter if you trust politicians, they were developed by scientists and engineers who know what they're doing and have some skin in the game.

You are free to opt out so long as you stay isolated somewhere and only physically interact with other people who choose not to get vaccinated, understand the risk and do not mingle with the rest of us. If you want to participate in society then get vaccinated, not doing so is not just a risk to you (I don't care if you want to risk yourself), it is a risk to everyone else and it takes an incredibly selfish and self absorbed person to not realize this or not care. People with your attitude are going to cause this pandemic to drag on much longer than it needs to and most likely Covid is going to keep on circulating since enough people are going to skip being vaccinated to allow that.

I suppose a reasonable alternative is let people refuse to be vaccinated, but hold them legally liable if it can be shown that they transmitted the virus to somebody else who later got seriously ill or died. Charging them with negligent homicide seems reasonable to me in the case of someone dying, or sue for lost wages, medical expenses, etc. When a person makes selfish choices based on ignorance and misinformation that end up resulting in harm to others there should be consequences and it should hurt.
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