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Vaccine

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tom66:
The US government should do another stimulus check but not available to those who have not been vaccinated (& do not have a genuine medical reason from a real doctor certifying their inability to have such a vaccine.)

Watch how many people would drop their objections to being vaccinated when $600 or $1200 is on the table.   :-DD

coppice:

--- Quote from: Zero999 on May 29, 2021, 09:52:12 pm ---
--- Quote from: Miti on May 29, 2021, 06:56:34 pm ---
--- Quote from: james_s on May 29, 2021, 06:35:15 pm ---I suppose a reasonable alternative is let people refuse to be vaccinated, but hold them legally liable if it can be shown that they transmitted the virus to somebody else who later got seriously ill or died. Charging them with negligent homicide seems reasonable to me in the case of someone dying, or sue for lost wages, medical expenses, etc. When a person makes selfish choices based on ignorance and misinformation that end up resulting in harm to others there should be consequences and it should hurt.

--- End quote ---

Would you be willing to accept the same punishment if within a year 40% of vaccinated develop autoimmune diseases?

--- End quote ---
How many vaccines have had that higher risk of autoimmune diseases, after a year?

As far as I'm aware, chronic health conditions due to vaccines tend to occur within the first couple of weeks of the dose, not spring up years later. The most risky vaccines are those which contain, attenuated, live virus, which isn't the case for any of the currently approved COVID-19 vaccines.

--- End quote ---
There have never been mass deployments of the types of vaccine most people are getting for covid, so we have no idea what to expect a year from now.

DrG:

--- Quote from: tom66 on May 29, 2021, 11:02:46 pm ---The US government should do another stimulus check but not available to those who have not been vaccinated (& do not have a genuine medical reason from a real doctor certifying their inability to have such a vaccine.)

Watch how many people would drop their objections to being vaccinated when $600 or $1200 is on the table.   :-DD

--- End quote ---

I have been following the developments in the US concerning CoVid vaccination with great interest. First, I have to say, as good as it is getting in the US, I know full well what the numbers look like in India, Brazil, Columbia and many other places. It is, as we all know, a global pandemic which is far from under control.

I am very proud of what we have done here in just ~4 months - millions of shots administered daily (I think we got over 4 million in one day as the peak). We have done a hell of great job so far and we are continuing and I am very proud of that effort.

In a sense, we have an embarrassment of riches with how much vaccine we have right now. Most of the country is within just a few miles from a place to get vaccinated and there are efforts to drive people and even pay for taxi cabs. There is enough for everyone in the US.

Many programs are aimed at addressing hesitancy.

The general process is to let people voice their hesitancy and ask questions. Outright and without ridicule or shame. There are answers to many of those questions and I like this approach the best.

One program was to offer a $25 Savings Bond (it is worth $25 when it hits maturity).

Then, one state decided to hold a lottery - 1 free ticket with your vaccine. This created some uproar. I read about how they calculated the benefit and while I don't claim to have critically evaluated the math and the assumptions, the basic idea is that you would save money given XXX folks who would otherwise hesitate, producing YYY cases and ZZZ  hospitalizations, each costing $!$!$!$. Put that way, I like that program also.

Several states followed suit and we have seen announcements of the first vaccine millionaires.

We also saw a spike in vaccination after the new CDC guidance for vaccinated people (no masks most of the time). Didn't try to verify the voracity of the claim though.

I don't see the need (or value) in vilifying those who are hesitating or outright refuse to get vaccinated. I will  however, support many policies that involve " if (vaccinated) then XXX ", but that is not the same as forcing someone to get vaccinated. When I go out in public, I am having my picture taken...nobody is forcing me to have my picture taken, but if I want to go out to public places, I will have my picture taken. This concept is not new.

I can respect those who are hesitant, but I want to have a civil discussion with them. If someone makes any kind of suggestion about the CoVid vaccine causing 40% of those people to develop auto-immune disorders, I want to hear the evidence because I don't believe it exists at all. Even if one does not say it outright, but brings it up, in this context, I want to know their thinking and their fears because maybe it can be changed, or maybe not.

BTW: The first doses of the mRNA vaccines were given to humans well over a year ago https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/experimental-coronavirus-vaccine-safe-produces-immune-response#:~:text=Scientists%20began%20Phase%201%20trials,in%20mid%2DMarch.. I have not heard of any of them contracting an auto-immune disease as a result - has anyone heard such a thing?

Miti:
Oy vey!  :palm:
I can feel the hostility just for stating that I’d like to have the rights over my body respected.
No, the 40% doesn’t come from Kennedy BS or from any other “debunked” source of misinformation. I just asked what if, I completely made it up. You can fill the dots with whatever figure makes you comfortable. Again, I don’t want to get into any debate. All the information is there, you just need to have an open mind.

Edit: Some material for your study
https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html     Read section 7.3 and 7.5
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code

DrG:

--- Quote from: Miti on May 30, 2021, 02:02:59 am ---Oy vey!  :palm:
I can feel the hostility just for stating that I’d like to have the rights over my body respected.
No, the 40% doesn’t come from Kennedy BS or from any other “debunked” source of misinformation. I just asked what if, I completely made it up. You can fill the dots with whatever figure makes you comfortable. Again, I don’t want to get into any debate. All the information is there, you just need to have an open mind.

Edit: Some material for your study
https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html     Read section 7.3 and 7.5
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code

--- End quote ---

I get that you say that you don't want to debate. You said that twice in the last few days of posts. The first time you said it was when you said you were "out". But, you came back with that 40% business, when you know better and I'm glad that you admitted that you just made it up - why you made it up, I don't know. I'm not sure, but I doubt too many in this thread thought that you were serious but, yeah, you could have been citing some source - I have heard worse.

Now, you again said that you don't want to debate, but you edited your post to add study materials and with the cryptic X-files like quote that " All the information is there, you just need to have an open mind." - ok, it's not exactly "the truth is out there", but it reminded me of that.

I believe that you don't want to debate, but I think you want to be heard and that you're concerned that your "position" will incur a lot of hostility. Well, you don't have to answer and I have no reason to be hostile to you, but I have two questions that I would like you to answer, so that I can better understand your position on the CoVid vaccine.

You stated previously, "Funny that you mention the tetanus shot. I've got mild IBS from it. When I was a child I stepped on a rusty nail and the doctor gave me a tetanus shot. Soon after, my guts went crazy for few days. It never went away completely to this day. It got more tolerable, but never went away." My question is; Can you seriously consider that there may be other reasons for lifetime (since then) IBS other than the tetanus shot that you received as a child? IOW: are you sure that the tetanus shot is the cause?

The second question has to do with something in the "study materials" - the French politician's recommended guidance from the meeting or whatever it is (and BTW: I recommend that others read the entire paper as it is NOT an anti-vax document - typical Political-Speak yes, but most definitely not anti-vax). If you think I am just screwing with you, then just don't respond. But, I did take the time to read your study materials (I was already familiar with the historical one to some degree and just browsed it) and they are both political statements and obviously not evidentiary in a scientific sense.

Specifically," 7.3.2 ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated".

It has been announced that the University of Western Ontario, in your flag country, is mandating CoVid vaccination IF you want to be living in residence https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-university-of-western-ontario-to-require-covid-19-vaccinations-for/ It is requirement.  Now, it does state that "Students who forgo a vaccine for reasons protected under the Human Rights Code may apply for an accommodation, the university said." Further, I looked into that code http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/ontario-human-rights-code and it does appear that it is at least possible that the residence could be considered protected ground, but since one could argue that you are choosing to go there to live, maybe you would not be exempt. I really don't know.

My second question is, do you feel that action (by the University) discriminates against you, assuming for the sake of argument, that you wanted to attend in residence but did not want to get vaccinated - IOW does that violate your body rights? [you have stated - "I’d like to have the rights over my body respected."], even if such exemption is normally granted - is it still a violation to require you apply for an exemption?

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