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Vaccine
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DrG:

--- Quote from: langwadt on May 30, 2021, 03:15:32 pm ---
--- Quote from: DrG on May 30, 2021, 02:39:31 pm ---
--- Quote from: jfiresto on May 30, 2021, 10:53:35 am ---
--- Quote from: dietert1 on May 30, 2021, 08:56:57 am ---My wife spent two or three days online and making phone calls to finally get vaccination appointments for us. I always ended up in the "virtual waiting room", without the faintest idea what was the problem....
--- End quote ---

Your experiences are about what I had expected. Some neighbors have been urging me to scheme some way to get a vaccine, but until recently it seemed unethically early. The ethics of Germany's (and the EU's) Covid response are what bother me. The models other countries are following suggest giving everyone the same priority to get vaccinated, so soon, will result in many preventable deaths, but perhaps there are other factors I do not know about that are more important.

Recently I got on a couple promising waiting lists for unwanted AZ doses, but only discovered them by chance. Public health should not be a lottery or worse.

--- End quote ---

In the US, early on, there was much talk of "line jumping" by the "rich and powerful" and how to game the system. It became common knowledge that any opened bottles (the mRNA vaccine), would have to be administered or tossed on that day. People started hanging out at clinics just for that chance at the end of the day - clinics caught on quickly, but I suspect that the vaccine underground quietly continued.....I do know of one person who got a friend call at the end of the day that if they could be there in 10 min, they could get a shot.

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if the alternative was that it would get tossed, you'd need to have a weird sense of justice to object to someone getting it for being there

--- End quote ---
Absolutely agree with you and I did not object and I told her so at the time and have not changed my mind. I did not expect or demand some kind of equitable distribution policy for those few doses because it would be incredibly cumbersome and impractical, nor would I condone large crowds gathering at clinics to fight for those few doses. Nor would I accept any unethical behavior to "arrange" for bottles to be opened when they did not need to be (I don't know that something of that nature ever occurred).

Truth is, I did investigate the possibility at the time, but what I saw online for every clinic near me was basically a warning to not show up without an appointment or you would be asked to leave. She is in another state where, at the time, they were already administering at drug store chains and the like (a distinctly different situation).
gnuarm:

--- Quote from: Muttley Snickers on May 30, 2021, 11:13:42 am ---At this point in time I have no interest at all in getting the vaccine due to existing and ongoing medical conditions, and I don't appreciate the conflicting and misguided information given by my treating specialists either. I do however appreciate that everybody's circumstances and responsibilities are different so the individual has to decide what is best for themselves, their family and also their community.

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Existing medical conditions are a reasonable justification for not getting the vaccine, especially when weighed in the context of 100% chance of getting the vaccine (if you so choose) vs. the 1 in X chance of getting COVID depending on you circumstances.  It may well be that, for your circumstances, statistically you are better off without the vaccine.

I have a friend who is highly intelligent, educated and has even worked in the medical field running a blood bank.  Yet she decided that simply because the vaccine was developed rapidly (even though the speed did not reduce the testing, they simply minimized the time for each step) it should not be trusted.  The fact that there are a very small number of reported POTENTIALLY severe reactions to the vaccines compared to the approximately 1% death rate in our age group from contracting the disease was not as important as her unease.  So an emotional decision rather than a logical one.
nctnico:

--- Quote from: gnuarm on May 30, 2021, 03:25:41 pm ---I can't say what perspective is provided by living in a country with single digit daily infection rates and virtually zero death rates from COVID,

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Such countries should really insist on getting people vaccinated as much as possible otherwise they'll have to shut the borders forever due to low group immunity. Covid-19 isn't going away for at leats the next couple of years. Having very low infection and death rates is a blessing and vaccination allows to reap the rewards of being vigilant.
JohnnyMalaria:

--- Quote from: Miti on May 30, 2021, 02:02:59 am ---Oy vey!  :palm:
I can feel the hostility just for stating that I’d like to have the rights over my body respected.
No, the 40% doesn’t come from Kennedy BS or from any other “debunked” source of misinformation. I just asked what if, I completely made it up. You can fill the dots with whatever figure makes you comfortable. Again, I don’t want to get into any debate. All the information is there, you just need to have an open mind.

Edit: Some material for your study
https://pace.coe.int/en/files/29004/html     Read section 7.3 and 7.5
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Code

--- End quote ---

I feared you had just made it up. To me, that's even worse than quoting someone else's made-up nonsense.

According to the pace link,

"7.5.2 use vaccination certificates only for their designated purpose of monitoring vaccine efficacy, potential side effects and adverse events;"

That's just bollocks. The primary purpose is as a record that an individual has received the vaccine.
coppice:

--- Quote from: nctnico on May 30, 2021, 03:55:48 pm ---
--- Quote from: gnuarm on May 30, 2021, 03:25:41 pm ---I can't say what perspective is provided by living in a country with single digit daily infection rates and virtually zero death rates from COVID,

--- End quote ---
Such countries should really insist on getting people vaccinated as much as possible otherwise they'll have to shut the borders forever due to low group immunity. Covid-19 isn't going away for at leats the next couple of years. Having very low infection and death rates is a blessing and vaccination allows to reap the rewards of being vigilant.

--- End quote ---
The countries which haven't had much trouble with covid are finding it very difficult to get their populations motivated to be inoculated. People are taking a wait and see approach, which is pretty reasonable at the individual level. However, it may isolate these countries.
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