Author Topic: Vaccine  (Read 34136 times)

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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #225 on: May 30, 2021, 05:55:36 pm »
I feared you had just made it up. To me, that's even worse than quoting someone else's made-up nonsense.

According to the pace link,

"7.5.2 use vaccination certificates only for their designated purpose of monitoring vaccine efficacy, potential side effects and adverse events;"

That's just bollocks. The primary purpose is as a record that an individual has received the vaccine.

Yes, documentation can be kept in many forms for those stated purposes and IS maintained electronically.  I think the primary reason this is documented by a piece of easy to counterfeit paper is for personal comfort of people having a way to prove they are vaccinated.  I do know it was important to have the card for my second vaccine.  I was warned if I didn't have that card when I came in for the second shot I would not get it.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #226 on: May 30, 2021, 06:04:16 pm »
The countries which haven't had much trouble with covid are finding it very difficult to get their populations motivated to be inoculated. People are taking a wait and see approach, which is pretty reasonable at the individual level. However, it may isolate these countries.

It can also leave them wide open to a surge of infection from a more readily spread strain.  While the vaccines are not perfect, they greatly reduce the likelihood of serious complications and virtually eliminates the chance of death.  If the population is not vaccinated a new strain can sweep through the population that is taking actions that are effective to an earlier, less infectious strain, but less so a more infectious strain. 

I believe most places with low infection rates are using effective track and trace methods.  If a new strain enters the country it may overwhelm such methods and require a return to extreme distancing and isolation as well as seeing death rates take off. 

The real danger from this disease presently is that it can mutate beyond our current methods of containment and sweep across unvaccinated populations.  The US is having a start of summer holiday and I expect to see a reversal in our lowering of daily infection rates, for a week or two at least, but hopefully I will be wrong.
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Offline Zero999

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #227 on: May 30, 2021, 06:47:46 pm »
I suppose a reasonable alternative is let people refuse to be vaccinated, but hold them legally liable if it can be shown that they transmitted the virus to somebody else who later got seriously ill or died. Charging them with negligent homicide seems reasonable to me in the case of someone dying, or sue for lost wages, medical expenses, etc. When a person makes selfish choices based on ignorance and misinformation that end up resulting in harm to others there should be consequences and it should hurt.

Would you be willing to accept the same punishment if within a year 40% of vaccinated develop autoimmune diseases?
How many vaccines have had that higher risk of autoimmune diseases, after a year?

As far as I'm aware, chronic health conditions due to vaccines tend to occur within the first couple of weeks of the dose, not spring up years later. The most risky vaccines are those which contain, attenuated, live virus, which isn't the case for any of the currently approved COVID-19 vaccines.
There have never been mass deployments of the types of vaccine most people are getting for covid, so we have no idea what to expect a year from now.
The messenger RNA vaccines are completely new. I know the adenovirus vector based ones are an older technology, but don't know how widely they've been applied. This is partly why I felt safer, with the AZ, than Pfizer jab.

People who don't know any better, fear things, which are either extremely unlikely, or impossible, such as getting a massive shock of a car battery; well maybe if you're hands have been soaking in salt water and you have a cut, but even then, it won't be bad, unless perhaps you already have a heart condition. There are also plenty of things which we know can be perfectly safe, such as driverless trains, but many laypeople fear them, because they don't full understand the technology behind it.

The question is: does there a plausible mechanism exist, by which a vaccination could cause complications, out of the blue, years later? I'm not doctor, but if there was such a possibility, then I would hope doctors would be warning us about it.

I'm curious as to whether Dave has had a coronavirus vaccine or not.

You'll have to forever continue to be curious.
I will not virtue signal my medical status, I refuse to be part of the social media circus on this.
I agree it's none of our business. If you want to talk about it, that's fine, but it's not a bad thing keeping it private.
 

Offline Miti

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #228 on: May 30, 2021, 06:57:25 pm »
I feared you had just made it up. To me, that's even worse than quoting someone else's made-up nonsense.

According to the pace link,

"7.5.2 use vaccination certificates only for their designated purpose of monitoring vaccine efficacy, potential side effects and adverse events;"

That's just bollocks. The primary purpose is as a record that an individual has received the vaccine.

Man, I hope you're not in any decision making position. That's how totalitarian regimes start.
Fear does not stop death, it stops life.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #229 on: May 30, 2021, 07:09:04 pm »
I feared you had just made it up. To me, that's even worse than quoting someone else's made-up nonsense.

According to the pace link,

"7.5.2 use vaccination certificates only for their designated purpose of monitoring vaccine efficacy, potential side effects and adverse events;"

That's just bollocks. The primary purpose is as a record that an individual has received the vaccine.

Man, I hope you're not in any decision making position. That's how totalitarian regimes start.
Why is keeping a record of who's been vaccinated a bad thing? It's important to note who's had what vaccine, because the current advice is to have two shots of the same type and some people might try to get vaccinated more than twice. It makes perfect sense to record who's had what. The government keeps plenty of information about you already and this is no different.
 
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #230 on: May 30, 2021, 08:05:21 pm »
I feared you had just made it up. To me, that's even worse than quoting someone else's made-up nonsense.

According to the pace link,

"7.5.2 use vaccination certificates only for their designated purpose of monitoring vaccine efficacy, potential side effects and adverse events;"

That's just bollocks. The primary purpose is as a record that an individual has received the vaccine.

Man, I hope you're not in any decision making position. That's how totalitarian regimes start.


Do you have a driver's license to prove you have passed the test?
Do you have dental records to keep track of any dental work you have had?
Do you have paychecks that record what tax you have paid?
Do you have certificates to prove what education you have had?
Do you carry your ticket with you when you travel to prove you are entitled to do so?

Totalitarian? What's the alternative? Total anarchy?

Prior to gaining US citizenship, I had to either prove I had received vaccinations against major diseases or had those diseases. Some of the those records were almost impossible to find and so I had to be vaccinated again. For others, I had the records myself and so didn't have to have additional vaccinations. Was the US government being totalitarian by reducing the risk of disease entering the country? Would it have made it easier for me if the records of my vaccinations when I was 5 more readily accessible?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 08:07:55 pm by JohnnyMalaria »
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #231 on: May 30, 2021, 08:09:32 pm »
The actual format of the US CDC vaccination card makes it clear that it was intended to keep the workflow organized, especially that both doses (when needed) were of the same vaccine and spaced apart by the required time.
There is a long tradition in the US of requiring vaccination, starting with smallpox.  The inoculation scar was its own evidence, but the microscopic needles for Covid vaccine (too small to pass microchips) leave no visible scar.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #232 on: May 30, 2021, 08:11:32 pm »
I feared you had just made it up. To me, that's even worse than quoting someone else's made-up nonsense.

According to the pace link,

"7.5.2 use vaccination certificates only for their designated purpose of monitoring vaccine efficacy, potential side effects and adverse events;"

That's just bollocks. The primary purpose is as a record that an individual has received the vaccine.

Man, I hope you're not in any decision making position. That's how totalitarian regimes start.


Do you have a driver's license to prove you have passed the test?
Do you have dental records to keep track of any dental work you have had?
Do you have paychecks that record what tax you have paid?
Do you have certificates to prove what education you have had?
Do you carry your ticket with you when you travel to prove you are entitled to do so?

Totalitarian? What's the alternative? Total anarchy?

All of these are communist oppressive concepts with no place in the land of the Free(of original thought).

I'll get my coat.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #233 on: May 30, 2021, 08:19:45 pm »
The actual format of the US CDC vaccination card makes it clear that it was intended to keep the workflow organized, especially that both doses (when needed) were of the same vaccine and spaced apart by the required time.
There is a long tradition in the US of requiring vaccination, starting with smallpox.  The inoculation scar was its own evidence, but the microscopic needles for Covid vaccine (too small to pass microchips) leave no visible scar.
The scar is nothing to do with the needle. It's caused by the immune system's reaction to the vaccine. I'm not old enough to have been vaccinated against smallpox, but the BCG vaccine caused a nice puss filled boil to form, which left a lovely scar.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #234 on: May 30, 2021, 08:29:35 pm »
I feared you had just made it up. To me, that's even worse than quoting someone else's made-up nonsense.

According to the pace link,

"7.5.2 use vaccination certificates only for their designated purpose of monitoring vaccine efficacy, potential side effects and adverse events;"

That's just bollocks. The primary purpose is as a record that an individual has received the vaccine.

Man, I hope you're not in any decision making position. That's how totalitarian regimes start.


Do you have a driver's license to prove you have passed the test?
Do you have dental records to keep track of any dental work you have had?
Do you have paychecks that record what tax you have paid?
Do you have certificates to prove what education you have had?
Do you carry your ticket with you when you travel to prove you are entitled to do so?

Totalitarian? What's the alternative? Total anarchy?

All of these are communist oppressive concepts with no place in the land of the Free(of original thought).

I'll get my coat.

I'll need your ticket. No ticket, no coat.
 
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Offline G7PSK

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #235 on: May 30, 2021, 08:57:52 pm »
At the beginning of the pandemic here in the UK the medical experts were saying that if we could achieve a 60%  herd immunity the pandemic would be over as the virus would no longer be able to spread. Well we are now at around the 60% mark for at least one shot of vaccine and along with the people who have had the virus we must be well over the 60% mark but the virus is still spreading at an alarming rate in some parts and is active all over the country so what of the herd immunity that was touted by some so loudly. 
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #236 on: May 30, 2021, 09:38:56 pm »
The actual format of the US CDC vaccination card makes it clear that it was intended to keep the workflow organized, especially that both doses (when needed) were of the same vaccine and spaced apart by the required time.
There is a long tradition in the US of requiring vaccination, starting with smallpox.  The inoculation scar was its own evidence, but the microscopic needles for Covid vaccine (too small to pass microchips) leave no visible scar.
The scar is nothing to do with the needle. It's caused by the immune system's reaction to the vaccine. I'm not old enough to have been vaccinated against smallpox, but the BCG vaccine caused a nice puss filled boil to form, which left a lovely scar.

I’m old enough to have been inoculated for smallpox.  Instead of a single injection, multiple needle jabs were used, over a few square mm of skin.  The resulting scar (from the reaction) is still there after more than 65 years.   My point is that the clearly visible scar was used as proof-positive that the subject had been vaccinated.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 11:21:39 pm by TimFox »
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #237 on: May 30, 2021, 10:17:23 pm »
At the beginning of the pandemic here in the UK the medical experts were saying that if we could achieve a 60%  herd immunity the pandemic would be over as the virus would no longer be able to spread. Well we are now at around the 60% mark for at least one shot of vaccine and along with the people who have had the virus we must be well over the 60% mark but the virus is still spreading at an alarming rate in some parts and is active all over the country so what of the herd immunity that was touted by some so loudly.

60% of having received the first dose is not sufficient. You need both doses plus a length of time (two weeks) before you can be considered immune. And that's only against the variants that the various vaccines are known to be effective against. The new surge in the UK is due to the Indian variant which the UK government for some insanely f**king dumb reason allowed to enter by allowing flights from India.

Now there's a UK-Indian hybrid just detected in Vietnam:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/new-hybrid-covid-variant-detected-in-vietnam/ar-AAKwoCz?ocid=uxbndlbing

Perhaps my fellow Brits should stay at home and stop swanning off around the world at this time.

BTW, the UK seems to have fallen behind on its vaccination program. I was surprised that only recently are people in their 30s getting their first dose. That means all the blitzed young people I see in photos outside pubs etc without masks have yet to receive their first dose. So you have a the least vaccinated group of people carrying on the behaviours most likely to spread the virus further.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 10:25:11 pm by JohnnyMalaria »
 

Offline radar_macgyver

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #238 on: May 30, 2021, 10:44:34 pm »
Prior to gaining US citizenship, I had to either prove I had received vaccinations against major diseases or had those diseases.
Haha, I lost track of the number of MMR shots I had to get for the same reason. Hmm, maybe that's why I'm on the spectrum...

 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #239 on: May 30, 2021, 10:56:11 pm »
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Offline Miti

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #240 on: May 30, 2021, 11:03:14 pm »
Do you have a driver's license to prove you have passed the test?
Do you have dental records to keep track of any dental work you have had?
Do you have paychecks that record what tax you have paid?
Do you have certificates to prove what education you have had?
Do you carry your ticket with you when you travel to prove you are entitled to do so?

None of these involve restricting my constitutional rights, then selectively giving them back base on my acceptance of being injected with an unknown substance, with unknown long term effects, or otherwise preventing me from making a living. That is unacceptable.

I may have misread your post, what I read was, and the part in italics is what I thought you meant "That's just bollocks. The primary purpose is as a record that an individual has received the vaccine with the purpose of restricting the freedoms of unvaccinated."

If that's what you meant, my statement stays, if not I apologise.

I'm not anti vaxer, I'm pro choice and pro safe vaccines, with transparent and thorough safety and efficiency testing. My wife and I have all the vaccines of our time, my first kid has all the vaccines, with my second one we decided to select some vaccines, and refuse some controversial ones, among them, the MMR.  Does that make me an antivaxer? When Dr. William Thompson, a senior scientist in the vaccine safety division at CDC comes and says that they knew about the link between the MMR and autism, that they knew the african american are at greater risk, that at 1 year old the children are at highest risk - on audio records and backed by internal CDC documents - wouldn't I be irresponsible to ignore all that and play the russian roulette with my child's life?
Fear does not stop death, it stops life.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #241 on: May 30, 2021, 11:15:51 pm »
I'm not anti vaxer, I'm pro choice and pro safe vaccines, with transparent and thorough safety and efficiency testing. My wife and I have all the vaccines of our time, my first kid has all the vaccines, with my second one we decided to select some vaccines, and refuse some controversial ones, among them, the MMR.  Does that make me an antivaxer? When Dr. William Thompson, a senior scientist in the vaccine safety division at CDC comes and says that they knew about the link between the MMR and autism,
Which is a myth which has been debunked a long time ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_and_autism. You got duped into exposing your kids to dangerous deseases. Outbreaks of the measles have killed a lot of people which could have prevented if the Wakefield and Thompson didn't spread fake news. You see it again with the Covid-19 outbreak: lots of individual scientists with their individual opions. But you know an opinion is like an asshole; everyone has one.

Science only works if it is truth by majority. Like the groups of scientists of the WHO work for example.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2021, 11:20:39 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #242 on: May 30, 2021, 11:16:43 pm »
Prior to gaining US citizenship, I had to either prove I had received vaccinations against major diseases or had those diseases. Some of the those records were almost impossible to find and so I had to be vaccinated again. For others, I had the records myself and so didn't have to have additional vaccinations. Was the US government being totalitarian by reducing the risk of disease entering the country? Would it have made it easier for me if the records of my vaccinations when I was 5 more readily accessible?
Middle class parents in much of East Asia are warned, as their children get their first inoculation, that they need to take care of those records if they want to send the children abroad for their education. A number of countries want to see these before issuing a study visa.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #243 on: May 30, 2021, 11:20:10 pm »
I'm not anti vaxer, I'm pro choice and pro safe vaccines, with transparent and thorough safety and efficiency testing. My wife and I have all the vaccines of our time, my first kid has all the vaccines, with my second one we decided to select some vaccines, and refuse some controversial ones, among them, the MMR.  Does that make me an antivaxer? When Dr. William Thompson, a senior scientist in the vaccine safety division at CDC comes and says that they knew about the link between the MMR and autism,
Which is a myth which has been debunked a long time ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_and_autism. You got duped into exposing your kids to dangerous deseases. Outbreaks of the measles have killed a lot of people which could have prevented if the Wakefield and Thompson didn't spread fake news.
Its one of those cases where the lie was front page news, but the retraction was in small print at the bottom of an arbitrary page, somewhere in the middle of the newspaper.
 
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Offline Miti

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #244 on: May 30, 2021, 11:31:02 pm »
But you know an opinion is like an asshole; everyone has one.

I choose to wipe mine...  :-+
Fear does not stop death, it stops life.
 

Offline DrG

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #245 on: May 31, 2021, 12:10:50 am »
Do you have a driver's license to prove you have passed the test?
Do you have dental records to keep track of any dental work you have had?
Do you have paychecks that record what tax you have paid?
Do you have certificates to prove what education you have had?
Do you carry your ticket with you when you travel to prove you are entitled to do so?

None of these involve restricting my constitutional rights, then selectively giving them back base on my acceptance of being injected with an unknown substance, with unknown long term effects, or otherwise preventing me from making a living. That is unacceptable.

I may have misread your post, what I read was, and the part in italics is what I thought you meant "That's just bollocks. The primary purpose is as a record that an individual has received the vaccine with the purpose of restricting the freedoms of unvaccinated."

If that's what you meant, my statement stays, if not I apologise.

I'm not anti vaxer, I'm pro choice and pro safe vaccines, with transparent and thorough safety and efficiency testing. My wife and I have all the vaccines of our time, my first kid has all the vaccines, with my second one we decided to select some vaccines, and refuse some controversial ones, among them, the MMR.  Does that make me an antivaxer? When Dr. William Thompson, a senior scientist in the vaccine safety division at CDC comes and says that they knew about the link between the MMR and autism, that they knew the african american are at greater risk, that at 1 year old the children are at highest risk - on audio records and backed by internal CDC documents - wouldn't I be irresponsible to ignore all that and play the russian roulette with my child's life?

For those who have the time and are interested/concerned: Here is a decent (and short) article about this old, and shameful, story https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2015/08/06/a-congressman-a-cdc-whisteblower-and-an-autism-tempest-in-a-trashcan/?sh=4f0168ab5396

Here is the link to the original article that did not show an autism link that was co-authored by the individual mentioned https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14754936/

From the article, it appears that later, the co-author says that there was data that DID show an autism link in African Americans, but they did not include the data in the publication.

Then, another party gets hold of those data and analyses it and publishes an autism link https://translationalneurodegeneration.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2047-9158-3-16

Then, the Journal (ed and Pub) Retract the article citing a lack of confidence in the soundness of the findings https://translationalneurodegeneration.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2047-9158-3-22

Here is a (well-written) blog posting about both articles (read both parts 1 and 2) https://blog.minitab.com/en/adventures-in-statistics-2/analysis-and-reanalysis3a-the-controversy-behind-mmr-vaccinations-and-autism2c-part-1

All this comes well after the 1998 Lancet debacle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_MMR_autism_fraud#1998_The_Lancet_paper

In 2019, the first author of the original article (in this list above)  published a review supporting his prior conclusions of no link. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30986133/

Millions of kids examined in numerous studies with no credible link found - In 2015, this study https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2275444  95,000 kids without finding a link. In this one, over a million https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24814559/

Sorry, I know you don't want to debate, but it is difficult for me to understand why you would say the things that you are saying.
- Invest in science - it pays big dividends. -
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #246 on: May 31, 2021, 12:50:44 am »
There is a long tradition in the US of requiring vaccination, starting with smallpox.  The inoculation scar was its own evidence, but the microscopic needles for Covid vaccine (too small to pass microchips) leave no visible scar.

I don't think vaccinations have ever been required unless you are in the military.  I remember the polio vaccine was purely optional, but like this disease it was killing a maiming a lot of people, but more young than old, so much more excitement was created.  I'm not sure I ever got the second dose.  Hard for me to recall the details since I wasn't even in school yet I think. 

Vaccines are required to attend school and other activities perhaps, but there are people who home school just because of that.  Still, the vaccines are not mandatory. 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Vaccine
« Reply #247 on: May 31, 2021, 01:21:48 am »
Ok, 10 pages worth now, and we've reached the autism thing, it's only going to go downhil from here. Time to call quits on this thread.
 
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