General > General Technical Chat
"Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?
SiliconWizard:
Hugging photons though. ;D
aetherist:
--- Quote from: TimFox on February 10, 2022, 10:16:38 pm ---Electrons are not photons.
Electrons are massive Fermions with charge and spin 1/2. Being massive, they must travel at less than c.
Photons are massless Bosons with no charge and spin 1. Being massless, they must travel at c.
These properties make a difference in their behavior.
--- End quote ---
I need to explain electons in more detail.
A free photon (eg light) is trapped in one dimension, it propagates at c in a straight line.
A semi-confined photon (eg an electon) is trapped in two dimensions, it propagates at c on a surface.
A confined photon (eg an electron) is trapped in three dimensions, it loops at c in a small volume.
A semi-confined photon hugs the wire. The nearside of the photon is slowed due to the nearness of mass (as for the Shapiro Delay of photons passing the Sun), & the photon's trajectory continuously bends towards the wire, ie it hugs the outside of the wire.
Similarly the nearside of the photon is slowed due to the action of the photon's E×H field acting on conduction electrons in a wire (there is one conduction valence electron per copper atom)(29 electrons in all).
In a lead acid battery, each individual ionic reaction at the surface of the metal negative plate creates a semi-confined photon that immediately hugs the surface of the plate, while zipping off at c, randomly exploring the full surface of the metallic plates & connecting straps & terminals.
An E×H field radiates from the helical central part of the photon. Some of this field radiates out away from the wire, & some of the field goes in towards the wire. The inwards field might continue through the wire, or it might be absorbed by the wire, or it might be reflected by the wire (which is my preference)(in which case it would radiate out & join the outwards field.
I believe in true reflexion – i don’t believe in absorption by orbiting electrons & then re-emission – but either way works i guess. On the other hand, i think that reflexion & absorption result in different changes of phase, which might mean that one or the other doesn't work here.
In the case of a free photon the E×H fields passing through a sufficiently large test area cancel, ie a photon is neutral (for most purposes).
But in the case of a semi-confined photon (eg an electon) the direct fields & the reflected fields do not cancel exactly, hence we have a nett E×H field (an electon has a negative charge).
In the case of a confined photon (eg electron) the looping photon has one twist per loop & hence all external radiation is either a positive charge (positron) or a negative charge (electron)(Williamson). The internal radiation cancels inside the electron/positron – actually the inwards radiations might annihilate (in which case no radiation exists here).
aetherist:
--- Quote from: penfold on February 10, 2022, 10:47:49 am ---
--- Quote from: aetherist on February 10, 2022, 01:35:11 am ---[...]The reason i don’t like drift is that it can't explain how electricity propagates at the speed of light, & especially because it can't explain how electricity propagates at the speed of light in the plastic insulation. My new electricity is a work in progress, & it might run into problems re the (too) slow speed of my electrons flowing on a wire, or i should say the (too) slow speed of the wavefront of my electrons flowing on a wire, the wavefront being much much faster, but still much much slower than the desired speed of light.[...]
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You're suspicion/dislike is not entirely unfounded/dis-believable. There are a large number of models of electronic conduction in metals and based on external "measureable" E and B fields, there isn't a unique solution for what the electrons are doing inside the wire. So long as the product of charge and velocity is a current that relates to the B field, it all works well for the fields. So yeah, its totally valid to disbelieve something. And so far, conceptually, your ideas are not totally crazy - they do however seriously need some quantitative analysis because they just don't add up to me.
How would skin effect at high-frequency work out in your model? Since there is no real evidence to suggest that electro-magnetic laws/theories completely disappear inside a conductor and that they seem to remain valid from microns to 1000's of km scales, they are quite difficult to dispute. Experimental evidence for the variation of ohmic/"real" resistance with increasing frequency would, to me at least, validate the idea that the distribution of current at DC is largely uniform and at HF, largely at the surface. The variation of distribution within the wire with frequency is also largely justified by measurements on conductors made from layers of varying conductivity (think silver plating on copper) where the real/"ohmic" resistance of the wire follows what is predicted for a current of specific skin depth and the corresponding resistance of the layers it falls within.
Would a surface current also not imply a rather significant increase in resistance for conductors with a particularly rough or serrated surface?
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I see that there is lots of stuff re skin effect in wiki, i wish that i knew more about physics & math so that i could understand some of it. I would like to see the results of experiments, but i haven’t found much. Much of the verbiage re skin effect & electron drift seems to be a circular argument.
Dividing Amps by Coulombs to get 0.1 mm/s average drift in a wire is enshrined in hymns & chants & gets a whole page in the Electricity Catechism. But is there any proof that even one electron drifts.
However, i don’t think that skin effect can separate old electricity & new electricity, because new electricity too includes skin effect.
An electon ploughing its way through the deep snow of free (surface) electrons on a wire would possibly give more heat on the surface than would old electricity. But new electricity too accepts that internal conduction electrons have a roll in resistance, ie internal conduction electrons & electons interact via their E×H fields.
Hence a qualitative comparison probably can't help us much, & (as u say) a quantative analysis might one day favor one or t'other.
I agree re serrations. New electricity could be tested by using a say wire with a serrated surface.
I don’t think that serration would have much effect on resistance, it would mainly affect distance, ie time.
A threaded surface might say double the effective length of the wire (or rod or pipe). The extra time for propagation would show. And i am confident that this test would be fatal for old electricity.
Howardlong could do the test(s), using his 20 GHz scope, using say 12" of threaded steel rod, versus 12" of plain rod.
Hmmmm -- a threaded pipe might be a problem, ie threaded outside, smooth inside. Electons could sneak throo the central short-cut.
But a pipe might introduce some other aspects that might give us some new info. Dunno.
eugene:
--- Quote from: aetherist on February 10, 2022, 09:34:41 pm ---Electricity propagates at the speed of light.
--- End quote ---
Wrong. See, for example, Wikipedia.
--- Quote ---If a wire has insulation then the speed is the speed of light in that insulation, say 2c/3 if plastic.
--- End quote ---
Wrong.
--- Quote ---I have explained on this forum that electricity is mainly due to the flow of electons on the surface of a wire.
--- End quote ---
Wrong. With AC currents there is a skin effect which makes the current density higher on the outside of the conductor than the center. But it is not true that current consists of electrons flowing on the surface of the conductor.
--- Quote ---Electons are photons, that hug the wire. Hence electricity is indeed light, ie photonic.
--- End quote ---
This is so wrong that I don't even know where to begin.
Believing that you understand physics better than what physicists have figured out in the last 150 years does not make you smart. It doesn't even make you look smart.
This entire topic is a shitshow.
Naej:
--- Quote from: eugene on February 11, 2022, 12:11:41 am ---
--- Quote from: aetherist on February 10, 2022, 09:34:41 pm ---Electricity propagates at the speed of light.
--- End quote ---
Wrong. See, for example, Wikipedia.
--- Quote ---If a wire has insulation then the speed is the speed of light in that insulation, say 2c/3 if plastic.
--- End quote ---
Wrong.
--- End quote ---
Correct (cf. your link) and correct if by electricity you refer to signals and light by EM waves at the frequency you're interested in.
--- Quote from: eugene on February 10, 2022, 09:08:08 pm ---I admit that I skipped a few pages in the middle of this thread, but am I the only one that understands that the electric potential does not travel at the speed of light in copper (i.e. c=3E8 m/s), but only about 0.65 c?
In particular, AlphaPhoenix claimed to measure the length of each of his loops by measuring the time that it took for the potential to travel the loop. But, he used c=3e8 m/s for the speed and got the 'correct' result! WTF?
This entire thread is a shitshow.
--- End quote ---
It's 2/3 c with plastic dielectric but ~1c when 99% of the dielectric is air. Using the correct method he got the correct result.
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