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"Veritasium" (YT) - "The Big Misconception About Electricity" ?

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dannybeckett:


This guy's youtube chan is really good, I'd advise watching this one


--- Quote from: aetherist on February 22, 2022, 01:07:29 am ---
--- Quote from: eugene on February 21, 2022, 07:44:14 pm ---
--- Quote from: adx on February 21, 2022, 02:30:38 pm ---[snip]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_gravity
"...between -3×10-15 and +7×10-16 times the speed of light"
--- End quote ---
Wait... what?

I skimmed the page you linked to. It offers an extensive history of the subject and lists quite a few different speeds as predicted by different scientists, but, in the end, the consensus seems to be that speed of gravity = c.

But that's old physics. It includes relativity, etc, but it's still old in the context of this thread. It's exciting to be a part of history in the making.   :-DD
--- End quote ---
Its mainly baloney. LIGO is rubbish. As we will all find out shortly, after they bring some new sites into being (India Australia etc).
There is no such thing as a gravity wave.
Gravity propagates at at least 20 billion c, not at c, nothing about gravity has a speed of c.
Even Einstein did no believe in quadrupolar GWs, or, at least, he believed that if they existed then they could not carry or transmit energy.

--- End quote ---

adx:
Heh, dolphins. Thought I better descend from madness to reply, while things have taken a distinct (and unexpected) turn toward the sane, but only time to rhetorically deal with one point for today:


--- Quote from: penfold on March 01, 2022, 09:46:54 am ---... The relationship between the momentum of electrons and how the fields behave around them is a key part of the delay in energy transfer and the evolution of fields between steady-state conditions.
...

--- End quote ---

That's the bit that (as aetherist says) seems the most synthetic of conventional theory to me, as if vacuum permittivity is a made up constant to generate the speed of light in mathland. Does this momentum produce the delay (which implies if it were different then the speed of light could be higher, like is possible of sound), or is this momentum a roundabout manifestation of the effectively infinite speed of light? The observation that light cannot have a longitudinal mode (for massless photons) suggests to me that it is the latter. And the apparent wave behaviour of EM is a result of time istelf. Or is time.

That's what I meant a while back where I said "we are watching the fabric of time itself in action", and was questioning the hoopla about "action at a distance", magnets, the force, and whether we really want cats experimenting and humans philosophising over what it is.

The Wikipedia article for action at a distance isn't clear on what the complaint (the hoopla) is. I can only assume that it is as plainly obvious to others as it is to me that if I pick up a magnet in each hand, then there is an action occurring at a distance. There is no material connection that I can see or detect without another magnet-like entity (like a Hall effect sensor) which is completely optional unless I'm a pigeon. There are no physically detectable particles, even photons don't have a position at that scale. I can theorise, hypothesise and philosophise about aethers, fields, or other magicks as much as I want, for there is certainly something there (even if only an ability for other regions to carry force) and perhaps approach a happy truth as to a cause. But nothing alters the fact that there is an action happening at a distance, and I can't conclusively say why.

This is worse than saying the instinctively programmed belief in an explanation for a chain of particles which can be seen to be acting on each other locally, is fundamentally just as mysterious. It's not. Yes the force is conducted the same way locally, and the meaning of what it is for items to move through space is somewhat icky when you think about it (what permits space to have a change of configuration which allows objects to be seen to translate through it as if they are really moving? without diving into some unsubstantiated imagining). Etc. But in the chain situation, we are closer to the explanation, because we can know the path and overall mechanism (even if we don't know the sub-mechanism). We can alter the path by moving something tangible. This difference is a wire vs radio, or stick vs magnets. It's a weak argument, but an argument: I can take a much more reasonable guess at the means and the path.

The Wikipedia article for locality does have a better explanation of the hoopla:

--- Quote ---... an object is influenced directly only by its immediate surroundings ...
... something in the space between those points must mediate the action ...
... something, such as a wave or particle, must travel through the space between the two points ...

--- End quote ---

But that is basically an even weaker form of my chain argument above, still grasping at straws that don't necessarily exist - somewhat dependent on biologically instinctive feelings that may cause us to miss the real problems or ignore the fact we are trying to run away from - that there is an action at a distance and efforts to rationalise that away are failing.

Some latch onto aethers, others to fields, as if they are real (some experimental evidence suggests that they are). Some go along with what the current fashionable consensus might be, others might be happy enough with the knowledge that something like the magnet force 'just is' and see no more mystery in it travelling through empty space than a particle going through an empty region. After all - there is no proof an object is not influenced only by its immediate surroundings (some evidence they are), there is no reason to suppose that anything in between the points is needed to mediate anything where there is no cause and effect there, and no proof that anything actually travels through the space.

So that gets back to the magnets. If I move one, we now know (or can justifiably assume to know) that the potential action appears to travel at the speed of light. This statement alone perfectly defines a spherical shell of potential action expanding at the speed of light. Forgetting about the mechanics of BxH for the moment, that qualitatively defines the wavefront travelling through space - hence what I said about "we are watching the fabric of time itself in action".

As the coffee machine was grinding away with its pump this morning (loose definition, but I do try to get up before the crack of noon), I realised that the "something in the space between those points must mediate the action" could be time - if there were no time (infinite speed), then we would have action at a distance by the Wikipedia definition, and no content to dwell or rest in the space, no mediation. The aether is time.

But it gets worse than that (aetherist may have beaten me to the punch here) I realised tonight; because the speed is constant, time need not exist. There is only any need to know distance from the source. But that is mostly encoded in the positions of the points. Therefore the aether is the unidirectional speed of light.

Something like that, and it's no longer getting late.

HuronKing:

--- Quote from: adx on March 02, 2022, 03:30:21 pm ---
Some latch onto aethers, others to fields, as if they are real (some experimental evidence suggests that they are). Some go along with what the current fashionable consensus might be, others might be happy enough with the knowledge that something like the magnet force 'just is' and see no more mystery in it travelling through empty space than a particle going through an empty region. After all - there is no proof an object is not influenced only by its immediate surroundings (some evidence they are), there is no reason to suppose that anything in between the points is needed to mediate anything where there is no cause and effect there, and no proof that anything actually travels through the space.

So that gets back to the magnets. If I move one, we now know (or can justifiably assume to know) that the potential action appears to travel at the speed of light. This statement alone perfectly defines a spherical shell of potential action expanding at the speed of light. Forgetting about the mechanics of BxH for the moment, that qualitatively defines the wavefront travelling through space - hence what I said about "we are watching the fabric of time itself in action".


--- End quote ---

penfold:

--- Quote from: adx on March 02, 2022, 03:30:21 pm ---Heh, dolphins. Thought I better descend from madness to reply, while things have taken a distinct (and unexpected) turn toward the sane, but only time to rhetorically deal with one point for today:

--- Quote from: penfold on March 01, 2022, 09:46:54 am ---... The relationship between the momentum of electrons and how the fields behave around them is a key part of the delay in energy transfer and the evolution of fields between steady-state conditions.
...

--- End quote ---
That's the bit that (as aetherist says) seems the most synthetic of conventional theory to me, as if vacuum permittivity is a made up constant to generate the speed of light in mathland. Does this momentum produce the delay (which implies if it were different then the speed of light could be higher, like is possible of sound), or is this momentum a roundabout manifestation of the effectively infinite speed of light? The observation that light cannot have a longitudinal mode (for massless photons) suggests to me that it is the latter. And the apparent wave behaviour of EM is a result of time istelf. Or is time.
[...]

--- End quote ---

Seeing as I'm passing... I shudder to think of how I've portrayed myself in this thread, naturally, I'm open-minded and supportive of ideas and beliefs, whether scientific, religious or alt-science, sometimes it takes a little more effort than others but I think I'd appear similar to a vegan demanding a grilled aubergine at a fox-hunt - my objection to either life-choice is non-existent(-ish) but I would be saying "...read the room, dear" and slowly reach an internal divide by zero exception.

So, sticking with the food analogy, it's a chicken and egg argument for so much of what this thread has been about, eggs take <10 minutes to boil, a chicken takes much longer in the oven, so, from the table's reference frame, the egg will arrive first. But, the argument doesn't predicate that the egg will be that of a chicken, that it will incubate properly and that it won't get smashed before hatching... so there could be more value in saying that the existence of an egg depends on the existence of a chicken, there is a lower probability that an egg will become a chicken than a chicken will remain a chicken, a chicken produces many eggs in its life, so the most stable state in the cycle of chicken and egg is chicken a superposition of chicken and egg that is mostly chicken, or egg, I lost track, but you could easily find a spin-state of a chick-tron and egg-tron that appeared like both. And the probability of that superposition would still be higher than seeing a pig-tron accelerate to flight velocity in a hay-field. The quantum and particle views are quite difficult to shake, nomatter what field they're in.

As I was playing along with the thread much earlier on, I was scribbling out a few of the derivations and had a brain-fart idea, and just idly thinking to myself about what would happen if one or two of the quantities weren't necessarily what they seemed to be (trying not to give too much away for several obvious reasons, propagating bad arithmetic as science being top on the list), and if say one or two things weren't necessarily constants but worked along with another unobservable 'phantom' quantity... just to play hypothetically... which still left a unique solution for the measurable quantities in terms of it - long story short and a fair amount of maths later, I became significantly more sympathetic to how alt-science theories could propagate and be believed without experimental data.

Anyway, just rambling,

aetherist:

--- Quote from: TimFox on March 01, 2022, 05:21:57 pm ---"Early atomic clocks had a quartz crystal in their circuitry.
Are u sure that there are some moderner versions that dont have quartz?
Anyhow, if an atomic clock has quartz, then there is a chance that the aetherwind can have a similar ticking dilation effect as for a plain quartz clock."

Yes, atomic clocks contain control circuitry that includes quartz crystals, copper conductors for electron current, capacitors with displacement current coursing through them, semiconductors that exploit quantum mechanics, and other results of 20th-century electronic engineering from physical principles.
What makes them "atomic" is that the frequency from which the time outputs are derived is that of a specific transition between atomic energy levels (in the microwave range) of cesium, analogous to the two yellow wavelengths found in transitions between levels in sodium atoms.  The control circuitry locks the various internal generators to that transition frequency, independent of physical dimensions of the apparatus.
This interesting article from the Hewlett-Packard fan club shows the original -hp- 5060A configured for traveling.  Later in the article, the 5060A is posed next to larger laboratory units.
https://www.hpmemoryproject.org/news/flying_clock/celebration_01.htm
The 5060 series was introduced in 1964, and the cesium clocks are now a mature technology.  You can find further details on the web, should you care to see what you are talking about.
The 1977 popular article cited in that reference,  https://www.hpmemoryproject.org/timeline/alan_bagley/measure_77-04.htm  discusses the details of a later time dilation experiment using specially ruggedized versions of the basic instrument to avoid potential practical problems (vibration, etc.) in the original 1971 experiment.
The final cesium clock model from -hp-/Agilent/Keysight, the 5071A, was spun off to Symmetricom (now Microsemi) in 2005.  https://www.microsemi.com/product-directory/clocks-frequency-references/3832-cesium-frequency-references  It is still available, yet expensive.  You can find used 5060A units on eBay.

--- End quote ---
I would not rule out that length contraction due to aetherwind can affect the ticking of a quartz crystal or a quartz tuning fork.
But in addition length contraction can affect the lengths of circuitry, hence timings.
And aetherwind (& length contraction) can affect the speed of electricity (ie my electons) on a wire, hence timings.
And what i really want to say is that i get the impression that the best modern atomic clocks are based on an atom going round & round in a certain plane. If so then the orientation of that plane relative to the aetherwind would i think affect the ticking. In other words atomic clocks are sensitive to orientation, ie north south east west. And, sensitive to up n down. As well as being as we all already know sensitive to elevation above the surface of the Earth (or i should say elevation above the center of the Earth)(or sensitive to gravity, crudely put)(or perhaps best described as being sensitive to escape velocity at that location).

Anyhow, ticking & time aint simple. We have the influences of aetherwind, length contraction, & nearness of mass -- & each of these 3 effects are complicated by orientation.
Plus of course we have the ordinary effects, eg temperature effects, stray magnetism, stray charge, stray em radiation, air (& humidity).

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