Veritasium "How Electricity Actually Works"

[aetherist]

Sorry be posting 3 comments in a row but enough nonsense has been perpetrated here about conduction current being the only way that energy can move from A to B in space. Here is a very simple experiment measuring displacement current as equal to the conduction current but there are NO electrons moving across any gaps whatsoever:

Interesting.
1.  I see that the induced wave on the left of the capacitor was stronger than on the right of the capacitor.
2.  And i suppose that if he removed the right half of the capacitor including its wire connection then he would have gotten an even stronger wave on the left part of the circuit (stronger than with the right side in place).
3.  Here (1) & (2) support my new (elekton) elekticity.
4.  The electricity on the rhs of the capacitor is an (induced) electron electricity.
5.  On the lhs its an elekton elekticity.
6.  Tween the plates there is no electricity, no current, there is a radio signal, ie em radiation, which induces an electron electric current on the rhs.

[PlainName]

And i suppose that if he removed the right half of the capacitor including its wire connection then he would have gotten an even stronger wave on the left part of the circuit (stronger than with the right side in place).

Easy to suppose, but unless you can show that then "Here (1) & (2) support my new (electon) electricity" is just building on quicksand.

Hell, we can all do that. I suppose that if he removed the right side the left side would have doubled. No, tripled! Now just let me make up a theory to account for that...

[aetherist]

And i suppose that if he removed the right half of the capacitor including its wire connection then he would have gotten an even stronger wave on the left part of the circuit (stronger than with the right side in place).

Easy to suppose, but unless you can show that then "Here (1) & (2) support my new (electon) electricity" is just building on quicksand.

Hell, we can all do that. I suppose that if he removed the right side the left side would have doubled. No, tripled! Now just let me make up a theory to account for that...

Not so fast. We already have some data. The lhs was stronger than the rhs.
How does old electron electricity explain that?
How was there more change (in current) on the lhs?

[PlainName]

Yes, I saw that. What I'm disputing is that you can extrapolate and say you would see anything with the right side missing. Maybe you would, but that wasn't shown and we can't tell from the experiment.

[snarkysparky]

About the capacitor.  Here is what happens when the switch is closed.

Charge accumulates on one plate of the capacitor.  The electric field created by this charge pushes some charge OUT of the other plate of the capacitor and through the load.

Transferring energy TO the resistor.



Who can dispute this?

[electrodacus]

Thank you!

Your question: I don't know. That's what we are ultimately trying to determine, but at this point all we know is that there is an energy transfer. What form that energy takes is something to be figured out.

Hopefully you now agree there is energy transfer across that gap. If not, how can one side insert some and the other side use some? We are still not talking about how it transfers, only that there is a transfer.

You are trying to determine that as for me is very clear. The energy is not transferred across the gap it is transferred in to capacitor so charge particles accumulate on one wire / plate and equal amount of charges leave the other wire / plate.

Hope you agree that no electrons jump that gap.  Since current is defined as flow of electric charged particles and since there are no electrons or ions traveling through that gap there is no energy transfer through that gap.
In order to charge a capacitor you will need to move charge particles (electrons) to and from plates (you move electrons to one plate and simultaneously remove electrons from the other). The electrons you remove from that other plate are there when capacitor is charged and do not come from the other side.

This was the reason I chose to use the two parallel capacitors example as there you have nothing else just capacitors one it is charged and the other is not so you have two gaps in the loop and no electrons travel across any of the two gaps yet there is an electric current in the wire so electrons move from the plate of one capacitor to the plate of the other capacitor through the wire when switch is closed.

On the charged capacitor there is excess of electrons on one plate and deficit of electrons on the other plate.
When you connect the other identical but discharged capacitor in parallel electrons will flow through the wire from one capacitor to the other.
So from the plate with excess electrons on the charged capacitor the electrons will travel to the plate with neutral charge on the discharged capacitor and at the same time electrons from the neutral charge on the discharged capacitors will move to the plate with deficit of electrons on the charged capacitor.
So if you were not to look at what happens to electrons in the capacitor plates you will think that those electrons must have jumped the gap but that is not the case.
In a circuit with resistance energy will be lost when part of the charge is moved from one capacitor to another.

[electrodacus]

How does that energy get there, as you say energy only flows in wires and not through a capacitor?

See the replay #680 that I just made. No energy flows through capacitor.  All electrons that move through the resistor where already on that side of the gap so electrons that were already on the capacitor plate connected to one side of the resistor will move through the resistor to the other capacitor plate also connected with wires to resistor.
You will end up with a plate that has a deficit of electrons and one that has an excess of electrons.
If you now open the switch and remove the battery that charge imbalance will remain as it is stored energy in the capacitors and so if you connect a wire instead of the battery and close the switch current will flow in the opposite direction powered by energy that you stored in the capacitors and so the electrons will not travel from the plate with excess electrons to the one with deficit until both plates have equal amounts of electrons so they are neutral and capacitors are discharged.     

[PlainName]

Thank you!

Your question: I don't know. That's what we are ultimately trying to determine, but at this point all we know is that there is an energy transfer. What form that energy takes is something to be figured out.

Hopefully you now agree there is energy transfer across that gap. If not, how can one side insert some and the other side use some? We are still not talking about how it transfers, only that there is a transfer.

You are trying to determine that as for me is very clear. The energy is not transferred across the gap it is transferred in to capacitor so charge particles accumulate on one wire / plate and equal amount of charges leave the other wire / plate.

You're jumping ahead. Regardless of the how, energy is either transferred across or it is not. Didn't we agree that there is insertion of energy on one side and extraction of same on the other? So therefore energy MUST have been transferred. The only thing in doubt is the exact mechanism.

Are you now disputing this already agreed fact (that there is a transfer of energy from PSU to resistor)?

[electrodacus]

Sorry be posting 3 comments in a row but enough nonsense has been perpetrated here about conduction current being the only way that energy can move from A to B in space. Here is a very simple experiment measuring displacement current as equal to the conduction current but there are NO electrons moving across any gaps whatsoever:

Sorry but that is an absolute crap video and the guy that made the video same as you has no idea what displacement current actually means.
He can not measure a current through the gap with that coil because as he correctly mentioned in the video there are no electrons jumping the gap and the only reason he sees something is because coil is huge and the gap is super small so there is current flowing in the wires and plates very close to that hughe coil.
There is no electrical energy traveling through that gap.
You can not have exceptions to the rule so no electron flow through the gap no electrical current and thus no energy.
That energy transferred to the plates stay there as stored energy that is why after the capacitor is charged there is no longer a current flow.
Current will flow into the plates and remain there. If you move the plates closer then some extra current will flow from the battery to capacitor as the capacity has now increased and if you move the capacitor plates further apart current from capacitor will flow back in to battery as capacity decreased and so there is excess charge.
By moving capacitor plates back and forth electrons will move from battery to capacitor and vice versa and since wires have some resistance energy will be wasted every time capacitor plates are moved until you can discharge the entire battery.

[electrodacus]

1.  I see that the induced wave on the left of the capacitor was stronger than on the right of the capacitor.
2.  And i suppose that if he removed the right half of the capacitor including its wire connection then he would have gotten an even stronger wave on the left part of the circuit (stronger than with the right side in place).
3.  Here (1) & (2) support my new (electon) electricity.
4.  The electricity on the rhs of the capacitor is an (induced) electron electricity.
5.  On the lhs its an electon electricity.
6.  Tween the plates there is no electricity, no current, there is a radio signal, ie em radiaton, which induces an electron electric current on the rhs.

That is a crap experiment and explanation.
There is inductive coupling between his coil and capacitor circuit as the coil is connected to common GND through the oscilloscope that is why he will see a stronger signal when he gets closer to the positive wire than the negative one.
There is nothing worth seeing in that video.

[electrodacus]

You're jumping ahead. Regardless of the how, energy is either transferred across or it is not. Didn't we agree that there is insertion of energy on one side and extraction of same on the other? So therefore energy MUST have been transferred. The only thing in doubt is the exact mechanism.

Are you now disputing this already agreed fact (that there is a transfer of energy from PSU to resistor)?

Energy is stored not transferred. Can you just not imagine energy being stored ?
Even after you disconnect the battery there will still be energy stored in there and if you close the circuit by connecting a wire in the place of the battery current from capacitor will flow now in the opposite direction and all that stored energy will be doing work while capacitor is discharged. 

[IanB]

Since current is defined as flow of electric charged particles and since there are no electrons or ions traveling through that gap there is no energy transfer through that gap.

If you say that there is no energy transfer across an air gap, then you must say that radio does not work, that wi-fi does not work, that cellphones do not work, that wireless charging does not work, that television does not work, in fact the whole modern world does not work. How can this be?

[IanB]

Energy is stored not transferred. Can you just not imagine energy being stored ?

Some energy was observed to go from the source to the load, so some energy was transferred by definition. Some energy was transferred, some energy was stored.

The transferred energy cannot be the same as the stored energy, or there would be something for nothing. In fact, you would have invented a free energy device. Do you wish to claim free energy?

[electrodacus]

If you say that there is no energy transfer across an air gap, then you must say that radio does not work, that wi-fi does not work, that cellphones do not work, that wireless charging does not work, that television does not work, in fact the whole modern world does not work. How can this be?

All those work just fine but not the way you think.
The transmit and receive antenna are each the plate of a large gap capacitor and the circuit is closed through the ground (earth) as the common conductor.
You are charging and discharging that capacitor thus you see a current on both sides as loop is closed through earth.
You can have one transmit antenna and multiple receive antenna is like having a capacitor with one plate on one side and multiple plates on the other side.
If you made communication using lasers then yes energy will be transferred from transmitter to receiver as you are sending photons.
Also with lasers you do not need the return like ground as you get the photons.
There are no particles exchanged between the two plates thus no energy passes through that gap.

[electrodacus]

Some energy was observed to go from the source to the load, so some energy was transferred by definition. Some energy was transferred, some energy was stored.

The transferred energy cannot be the same as the stored energy, or there would be something for nothing. In fact, you would have invented a free energy device. Do you wish to claim free energy?

The load in this case is just a conductor. If your main goal was to charge the capacitor then you will call this energy as lost.
There is absolutely no energy that is not accounted for. You seems to be the ones that try to ignore stored energy.

When you charge a capacitor from a source the energy provided by the source will be equal with stored energy and energy loss on the wire.
When you discharge that stored energy you get the same loss again with current flow in the opposite direction.

You will have a problem adding some extra energy that crosses the gap as there is nothing more than stored and lost on the wire coming from the source.

[IanB]

There are no particles exchanged between the two plates thus no energy passes through that gap.

If no energy passes through that gap then radio does not work, wi-fi does not work, cellphones do not work, wireless charging does not work, television does not work. All of those require energy to cross the gap.

[IanB]

The load in this case is just a conductor. If your main goal was to charge the capacitor then you will call this energy as lost.
There is absolutely no energy that is not accounted for. You seems to be the ones that try to ignore stored energy.

When you charge a capacitor from a source the energy provided by the source will be equal with stored energy and energy loss on the wire.
When you discharge that stored energy you get the same loss again with current flow in the opposite direction.

You will have a problem adding some extra energy that crosses the gap as there is nothing more than stored and lost on the wire coming from the source.

All of these comments apply to charge, not energy.

If you talk about electrical charge, then everything is fine.

[electrodacus]

There are no particles exchanged between the two plates thus no energy passes through that gap.

If no energy passes through that gap then radio does not work, wi-fi does not work, cellphones do not work, wireless charging does not work, television does not work. All of those require energy to cross the gap.

I already answered this question a few minutes ago. They work you do not understand how.

[electrodacus]

All of these comments apply to charge, not energy.

If you talk about electrical charge, then everything is fine.

You don't quite understand what energy is and in this particular case electrical energy.
a) Is electrical energy the integral over time of electrical power ?
b) Is electrical power the product of electrical potential and electrical current?
c) Is electrical current defined as a flow of electrical charged particles? In this particular cases we are discussing flow of electrons.

Let me know if you answer as No on any of the 3 questions above.

[SandyCox]

What about series compensation of power lines? Isn't that energy being transferred through capacitors?

How do you start a single-phase induction motor without a capacitor? Another example of energy being transferred through a capacitor.

[IanB]

a) Is electrical energy the integral over time of electrical power ?
b) Is electrical power the product of electrical potential and electrical current?
c) Is electrical current defined as a flow of electrical charged particles? In this particular cases we are discussing flow of electrons.

Let me know if you answer as No on any of the 3 questions above.

a) Not always
b) Not always
c) Not always

[electrodacus]

a) Not always
b) Not always
c) Not always

  OK give an example.  I need to admit I did not expected this answer. Waiting for your clarification.

[PlainName]

You're jumping ahead. Regardless of the how, energy is either transferred across or it is not. Didn't we agree that there is insertion of energy on one side and extraction of same on the other? So therefore energy MUST have been transferred. The only thing in doubt is the exact mechanism.

Are you now disputing this already agreed fact (that there is a transfer of energy from PSU to resistor)?

Energy is stored not transferred. Can you just not imagine energy being stored ?
Even after you disconnect the battery there will still be energy stored in there and if you close the circuit by connecting a wire in the place of the battery current from capacitor will flow now in the opposite direction and all that stored energy will be doing work while capacitor is discharged.

I don't dispute that a capacitor can store energy. As can a battery, and many other things. But that isn't relevant here - what is relevant is that there is a input on one side and an output on the other. The bits inbetween are a black box, and all we know is that there is no continuous transfer, but there is some.

So, are you disputing that the energy input on one side causes the transfer that allows consumption on the other side?

[electrodacus]

I don't dispute that a capacitor can store energy. As can a battery, and many other things. But that isn't relevant here - what is relevant is that there is a input on one side and an output on the other. The bits inbetween are a black box, and all we know is that there is no continuous transfer, but there is some.

So, are you disputing that the energy input on one side causes the transfer that allows consumption on the other side?

You need to have a circuit so obviously that as many electrons will exit on one side of the battery as they enter the other side else there is just no energy transfer.
You can not just connect one terminal of the battery say the negative to a circuit and expect electrons to flow. You need a complete loop for that.

[PlainName]

I don't dispute that a capacitor can store energy. As can a battery, and many other things. But that isn't relevant here - what is relevant is that there is a input on one side and an output on the other. The bits inbetween are a black box, and all we know is that there is no continuous transfer, but there is some.

So, are you disputing that the energy input on one side causes the transfer that allows consumption on the other side?

You need to have a circuit so obviously that as many electrons will exit on one side of the battery as they enter the other side else there is just no energy transfer.
You can not just connect one terminal of the battery say the negative to a circuit and expect electrons to flow. You need a complete loop for that.

So you are saying that what we see in that circuit is false? That the input energy from the PSU does not cause the resistor to consume energy?