Author Topic: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.  (Read 25732 times)

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Offline aetheristTopic starter

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Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« on: March 25, 2022, 01:16:09 am »
On the other Veritasium thread/topic/subject we got sidetracked a little.  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/veritasium-(yt)-the-big-misconception-about-electricity/msg4077409/#msg4077409
We mentioned the Faraday Disc Paradox (re the spin or non-spin of a magnetic field)(i will link later).
We mentioned the Purcell book (re the relativistic cause of magnetism near a wire carrying an electric current)(i will link later).
Purcell refers to the (Henry) Rowland-X (re a charged spinning disc). The first supposed proof that drifting electrons in a wire can make a magnetic field (i will link later). 

I had a look at the youtube by (Derek) Veritasium (link below). And 2 youtubes by (Nick) The Science Asylum (i will show links later).
All of these Einsteinian STR explanations for the relativistic cause of magnetism near a wire carrying an electric current are krapp. I will show links & i will point out errors later.

How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work
3,122,546 views     Sep 23, 2013     Veritasium       11.6M subscribers    .  6,631 Comments   

Magnetism seems like a pretty magical phenomenon. Rocks that attract or repel each other at a distance - that's really cool - and electric current in a wire interacts in the same way. What's even more amazing is how it works. We normally think of special relativity as having little bearing on our lives because everything happens at such low speeds that relativistic effects are negligible. But when you consider the large number of charges in a wire and the strength of the electric interaction, you can see that electromagnets function thanks to the special relativistic effect of length contraction. In a frame of reference moving with the charges, there is an electric field that creates a force on the charges. But in the lab frame, there is no electric field so it must be a magnetic field creating the force. Hence we see that a magnetic field is what an electric field becomes when an electrically charged object starts moving.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2022, 01:17:56 am by aetherist »
 

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2022, 01:24:55 am »
Here are the 2 youtubes by Nick at The Science Asylum.  I will comment later.

How Special Relativity Fixed Electromagnetism 307,828 views  Sep 12, 2019  The Science Asylum             530K subscribers       
Electrodynamics (electricity and magnetism) is governed by Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law, but that left it a little broken. It would take Albert Einstein inventing special relativity to fix it. If magnets are based on motion and motion is relative, how does that work?



Magnetic Force Does NOT Exist!   354,172 views       Apr 4, 2016      The Science Asylum   531K subscribers
We've all played with magnets before watching them attract or repel via magnetic force. In this video, I make the bold claim that magnetic force doesn't actually exist. It's an illusion.

 

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2022, 01:34:33 am »
There are many youtubes re the Faraday Disc Paradox, these 2 might be the best (by Doug Marett i think).
Purcell in his book says that there is a relativistic explanation. I will link & comment on that later.

Faraday paradox unipolar dynamo demo Part1   38,653 views  Aug 27, 2014     plenum88       1.57K subscribers   
This video is a demonstration of the Faraday paradox using a 3D printed unipolar dynamo The unipolar generator is composed of three key elements - a copper disk, a ring magnet, and a stator wire circuit to the oscilloscope, all three of which are independently rotatable. A stepper motor is used to set rotation at a fixed speed, using an Arduino control board. In part 1, we explore the essential elements of the paradox, namely the apparent magnetic induction which occurs between the co-rotating disk and magnetic elements in the device. The controversy reduces to the key question: do the magnetic lines of force rotate with the magnet or not? Einstein and Maxwell / Faraday disagreed on this point, which has also been phrased: what is the seat of the electromagnetic induction? To be continued with part2.




Faraday Paradox Unipolar Dynamo Part 2: The Solution 15,845 views  Oct 31, 2016   plenum88           1.57K subscribers    95 Comments 
In this part 2 of our Faraday Paradox series, we explore the explanations of the effect and examine some scientific papers and patents that would appear to explain the paradox.
 
 
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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2022, 01:48:48 am »
Here is the link to Purcell's book, plus some snippets. Purcell says that STR explains magnetism. Nope, he is wrong. I will comment later.

https://cdn.bc-pf.org/resources/physics/Theory/Purcell-electricity_and_magnetism_3rd_edition.pdf
5.9 Interaction between a moving charge and other moving charges.

Equation (5.1) tells us that there can be a velocity-dependent force on a moving charge. That force is associated with a magnetic field, the sources of which are electric currents, that is, other charges in motion. Oersted’s experiment showed that electric currents could influence magnets, but at that time the nature of a magnet was totally mysterious. Soon Ampère and others unravelled the interaction of electric currents with each other, as in the attraction observed between two parallel wires carrying current in the same direction. This led Ampère to the hypothesis that a magnetic substance contains permanently circulating electric currents. If so, Oersted’s experiment could be understood as the interaction of the galvanic current in the wire with the permanent microscopic currents that gave the compass needle its special properties. Ampère gave a complete and elegant mathematical formulation of the interaction of steady currents, and of the equivalence of magnetized matter to systems of permanent currents. His brilliant conjecture about the actual nature of magnetism in iron had to wait a century, more or less, for its ultimate confirmation.

Whether the magnetic manifestations of electric currents arose from anything more than the simple transport of charge was not clear to Ampère and his contemporaries. Would the motion of an electrostatically charged object cause effects like those produced by a continuous galvanic current? Later in the century, Maxwell’s theoretical work suggested the answer should be yes. The first direct evidence was obtained by Henry Rowland, to whose experiment we shall return at the end of Chapter 6.

From our present vantage point, the magnetic interaction of electric currents can be recognized as an inevitable corollary to Coulomb’s law. If the postulates of relativity are valid, if electric charge is invariant, and if Coulomb’s law holds, then, as we shall now show, the effects we commonly call “magnetic” are bound to occur. They will emerge as soon as we examine the electric interaction between a moving charge and other moving charges. A simple system will illustrate this.

Figure 5.22. A test charge q moving parallel to a current in a wire. (a) In the lab frame, the wire, in which the positive charges are fixed, is at rest. The current consists of electrons moving to the right with speed v0. The net charge on the wire is zero. There is no electric field outside the wire. (b) In a frame in which the test charge is at rest, the positive ions are moving to the left with speed v, and the electrons are moving to the right with speed v'0. The linear density of positive charge is greater than the linear density of negative charge. The wire appears positively charged, with an external field E'r, which causes a force qE'r on the stationary test charge q. (c) That force transformed back to the lab frame has the magnitude qE'r/γ, which is proportional to the product of the speed v of the test charge and the current in the wire, −λ0v0.

In the lab frame of Fig. 5.22(a), with spatial coordinates x, y, z, there is a line of positive charges, at rest and extending to infinity in both directions. We shall call them ions for short. Indeed, they might represent the copper ions that constitute the solid substance of a copper wire. There is also a line of negative charges that we shall call electrons. These are all moving to the right with speed v0. In a real wire the electrons would be intermingled with the ions; we’ve separated them in the diagram for clarity. The linear density of positive charge is λ0. It happens that the linear density of negative charge along the line of electrons is exactly equal in magnitude. That is, any given length of “wire” contains at a given instant the same number of electrons and protons. 
[9] [9 It doesn’t have to, but that equality can always be established, if we choose, by adjusting the number of electrons per unit length. In our idealized setup, we assume this has been done.]
The net charge on the wire is zero. Gauss’s law tells us there can be no flux from a cylinder that contains no charge, so the electric field must be zero everywhere outside the wire. A test charge q at rest near this wire experiences no force whatsoever.

Suppose the test charge is not at rest in the lab frame but is moving with speed v in the x direction. Transform to a frame moving with the test charge, the x', y' frame in Fig. 5.22(b). The test charge q is here at rest, but something else has changed: the wire appears to be charged! There are two reasons for that: the positive ions are closer together, and the electrons are farther apart. Because the lab frame in which the positive ions are at rest is moving with speed v, the distance between positive ions as seen in the test charge frame is contracted by1−v2/c2, or 1/γ. The linear density of positive charge in this frame is correspondingly greater; it must be γλ0. The density of negative charge takes a little longer to calculate, for the electrons were already moving with speed v0 in the lab frame. Hence their linear density in the lab frame, which was −λ0, had already been increased by a Lorentz contraction. In the electrons’ own rest frame the negative charge density must have been −λ0/γ0, where γ0 is the Lorentz factor that goes with v0.

Now we need the speed of the electrons in the test charge frame in order to calculate their density there. To find that velocity (v'0 in Fig. 5.22(b)) we must add the velocity −v to the velocity v0, remembering to use the relativistic formula for the addition of velocities (Eq. (G.7) in Appendix G).
 

Offline aetheristTopic starter

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2022, 02:25:24 am »
Here is the link to Purcell's book, plus some of his snippets re the experiment by Henry Rowland re a charged spinning disc, the first supposed proof that drifting electrons in a wire can make a magnetic field (see link below). 
https://cdn.bc-pf.org/resources/physics/Theory/Purcell-electricity_and_magnetism_3rd_edition.pdf
https://archive.org/details/physicalpapersof00rowlrich
https://archive.org/stream/physicalpapersof00rowlrich/physicalpapersof00rowlrich_djvu.txt

6.8 Rowland’s experiment.
As we remarked in Section 5.9, it was not obvious 150 years ago that a current flowing in a wire and a moving electrically charged object are essentially alike as sources of magnetic field. The unified view of electricity and magnetism that was then emerging from Maxwell’s work suggested that any moving charge ought to cause a magnetic field, but experimental proof was hard to come by. That the motion of an electrostatically charged sheet produces a magnetic field was first demonstrated by Henry Rowland, the great American physicist renowned for his perfection of the diffraction grating. Rowland made many ingenious and accurate electrical measurements, but none that taxed his experimental virtuosity as severely as the detection and measurement of the magnetic field of a rotating charged disk. The field to be detected was something like 10−5 of the earth’s field in magnitude –a formidable experiment, even with today’s instruments!  In Fig. 6.31, you will see a sketch of Rowland’s apparatus and a reproduction of the first page of the paper in which he described his experiment. Ten years before Hertz’s discovery of electromagnetic waves,  Rowland’s result gave independent, if less dramatic, support to Maxwell’s theory of the electromagnetic field.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2022, 02:32:40 am by aetherist »
 

Offline aetheristTopic starter

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2022, 11:11:02 pm »
The Veritasium youtube etc tells us that drifting electrons drifting at (Veritasium says) 0.3 mm/s in the lab frame have the same spacings (center to center) as the Cu nuclei (ie protons)(which are stationary in the lab frame).
Veritasium & Co have to invoke that postulate, koz they know that a stationary charge is not attracted or repelled by a wire carrying an electric current.
But, if, when there is zero electric current, the electron to electron spacing is the same as the proton to proton spacing, then, when the current is turned on, & electrons drift, surely STR demands that in the lab frame the electron to electron spacing will be contracted.
In which case the wire will have a negative charge in the lab frame.

STRIKE-1.   So, the STR explanation of the magnetomotive force fails at the first pitch, which was an easy meatball.
However, i will keep going, koz this Einsteinian farce has an astonishing number of fudges pushes & stupid postulates.

A more sensible application of STR demands that the current carrying wire has zero charge when the wire is moving at V/2, ie at a half of the drift velocity, ie at 0.15 mm/s (if Veritasium's 0.3 mm/s is true).
When/if the wire is moving at 0.15 mm/s, then in the wire's reference frame the protons will have a relative V of 0.15 mm/s to the left, & the electrons will have a relative V of  0.15 mm/s to the right, in which case the spacings for the protons & the spacings for the electrons will be both contracted by the same amount, in which case the wire will have a neutral nett charge.
The silly STR push, that the wire has a neutral charge when the wire is stationary, ie when the electrons are drifting at 0.3 mm/s, must be one of the stupidest postulates that i have seen.
Why hasn’t it been debunked before. Why did it have to wait for me to come along, a mere civil engineer, allergic to electricity, to point the problem out to all u EEs.

Veritasium's 0.3 mm/s is very fast, by a factor of 10, ie 0.03 mm/s is more likely. Wiki gives an example of  0.023 mm/s for 1 Amp in a  2 mm dia Cu wire.
Notice that in the Veritasium youtube the electrons are drifting at about 1 m/s (judging by the size of Veritasium's head). Whereas the total distance of drift would have been only say  77.4 mm, based on his  0.3 mm/s for the whole  258 seconds  (4:18) of his whole youtube. This  77.4 mm would be about  1.5 diameters of his drawn circular electrons. But if based on  0.03 mm/s then the total drift would have  been  7.74 mm, ie say  0.15 dia.  His electron speed of  1000 mm/s is  33,333 times faster than  0.03 mm/s.

My above numbers are a bit unfair (& silly). He drew his wire to appear to be say  300 mm dia (judging by the size of his head), hence if the wire is meant to be say  2 mm dia then the drawing is a  150 times magnification. Hence his 0.3 mm/s should have given a drawn drift speed of  45 mm/s instead of his actual drawn speed of  1000 mm/s. And, as i said, his 0.3 mm/s should have been more like  0.03 mm/s, which would have needed a drawn drift speed of  4.5 mm/s.  Just saying. More tomorrow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity
Numerical example
Electricity is most commonly conducted through copper wires. Copper has a density of 8.94 g/cm3 and an atomic weight of 63.546 g/mol, so there are 140685.5 mol/m3. In one mole of any element, there are 6.022×1023 atoms (the Avogadro number). Therefore, in 1 m3 of copper, there are about 8.5×1028 atoms (6.022×1023 × 140685.5 mol/m3). Copper has one free electron per atom, so n is equal to 8.5×1028 electrons per cubic metre.
Assume a current I = 1 ampere, and a wire of 2 mm diameter (radius = 0.001 m). This wire has a cross sectional area A of π × (0.001 m)2 = 3.14×10−6 m2 = 3.14 mm2. The charge of one electron is q = −1.6×10−19 C. The drift velocity therefore can be calculated:
Therefore, in this wire, the electrons are flowing at the rate of 23 μm/s. At 60 Hz alternating current, this means that, within half a cycle, the electrons drift less than 0.2 μm. In other words, electrons flowing across the contact point in a switch will never actually leave the switch.
By comparison, the Fermi flow velocity of these electrons (which, at room temperature, can be thought of as their approximate velocity in the absence of electric current) is around 1570 km/s.[2]
« Last Edit: March 25, 2022, 11:34:18 pm by aetherist »
 

Offline penfold

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2022, 12:25:12 am »
[...]
Why hasn’t it been debunked before. Why did it have to wait for me to come along, a mere civil engineer, allergic to electricity, to point the problem out to all u EEs.
[...]

... why do I keep coming back for more?!

Regarding the experiment:
Quote
Faraday paradox unipolar dynamo demo Part1   38,653 views  Aug 27, 2014     plenum88       1.57K subscribers   

The experimental setup looks a bit sub-par for one, motor wires running right past the open box of the preamp... not the end of the world, but attention to detail is nice to see. Nothing about the experiment is itself proved, the properties/polarity/field-distribution of the magnet is not demonstrated and the pre-amp isn't demonstrated to be true and linear, if I were more suspicious, I would be wanting to see what the black coax leading from amp to scope was doing off-camera.

Of the many more test cases I would want to be seeing, which are unfortunately very difficult to do, a few are: the entire test rig (including scope) rotating, and TBH all permutations and combinations or rotatables in fixed, forward, and reverse; the same combinations repeated with the sliding contacts removed from the surface and also repeated with a fixed short at the ends; and the geometry, spacing, and angle of contact with the disc varied in a few combinations. Eliminating the variables like that does two things, generates more test cases for the proposed theory, and provides more avenues to distinction with competing explanations.
 

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2022, 12:46:43 am »
I had a look at the youtube by (Derek) Veritasium (link below). And 2 youtubes by (Nick) The Science Asylum (i will show links later).
All of these Einsteinian STR explanations for the relativistic cause of magnetism near a wire carrying an electric current are krapp. I will show links & i will point out errors later.

Genuine question, why don't you make response video?
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2022, 01:32:51 am »
I had a look at the youtube by (Derek) Veritasium (link below). And 2 youtubes by (Nick) The Science Asylum (i will show links later).
All of these Einsteinian STR explanations for the relativistic cause of magnetism near a wire carrying an electric current are krapp. I will show links & i will point out errors later.

Genuine question, why don't you make response video?

Oh, well. Now it's official. The EEVBlog has become a haven for crankery. Pseudo-scientific claims are now "genuine questions". At least this gives us a purpose in life: debunk them.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2022, 08:27:54 am »
I had a look at the youtube by (Derek) Veritasium (link below). And 2 youtubes by (Nick) The Science Asylum (i will show links later).
All of these Einsteinian STR explanations for the relativistic cause of magnetism near a wire carrying an electric current are krapp. I will show links & i will point out errors later.

Genuine question, why don't you make response video?

Oh, well. Now it's official. The EEVBlog has become a haven for crankery. Pseudo-scientific claims are now "genuine questions". At least this gives us a purpose in life: debunk them.

"Genuine question" means "I have a genuine question for you, why don't you make response video? (instead of just posting like crazy on a forum)
 
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Offline SandyCox

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2022, 09:48:17 am »
Why did it have to wait for me to come along, a mere civil engineer, allergic to electricity, to point the problem out to all u EEs.
From the way you write and the way you argue, I find it very hard to believe that you even finished  secondary school. Where did you study Civil Engineering?
 

Offline aetheristTopic starter

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2022, 11:17:27 am »
I had a look at the youtube by (Derek) Veritasium (link below). And 2 youtubes by (Nick) The Science Asylum (i will show links later).
All of these Einsteinian STR explanations for the relativistic cause of magnetism near a wire carrying an electric current are krapp. I will show links & i will point out errors later.
Genuine question, why don't you make response video?
Yes, i think that i could make a number of youtubes, mainly debunking Einstein's famous gedankens, or debunking gedankens like this one by Derek-Veritasium & the 2 by Nick-The Science Asylum.
But firstly i think that i would need to bounce my half baked amateur ideas off professionals, eg on this forum.

Its funny, the Veritasium youtube claims that the length contraction of the drifting electrons cause of the magnetomotive force is a supreme example & proof of the validity of STR, when my STRIKE-1 post shows that it is a supreme example of a failure of STR.

One more catastrophe which might qualify as STRIKE-2. While Veritasium's kitty & The Science Asylum's squirrel are moving along at say 0.03 mm/s in the drifting electron frame, they suffer a repulsion due to the excess of positive charge in the wire, due to the length contraction of the spacing of the protons. What Veritasium & Co failed to tell us is that the kitty & the squirrel were carrying magnetic compasses, & the compasses reacted to the magnetic field, in the same way that they always react, even tho the kitty & squirrel & compasses were moving at 0.03 mm/s. And they failed to tell us that the compasses reacted exactly in that same way (to the magnetic field) at any & every speed (eg -3 mm/s, 00 mm/s, + 3 mm/s)(or at any speed that u might care to nominate).

In other words, the kitty & squirrel got (can get) a double dose of magnetomotive force. They get the standard magnetomotive force from the magnetic field (which exists at all velocities), plus they can get the pseudo STR magnetomotive force (which varies with velocity). What a disaster. But there are lots more disasters to follow.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2022, 11:20:15 am by aetherist »
 

Offline aetheristTopic starter

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2022, 11:40:46 am »
[...]Why hasn’t it been debunked before. Why did it have to wait for me to come along, a mere civil engineer, allergic to electricity, to point the problem out to all u EEs.[...]
... why do I keep coming back for more?!

Regarding the experiment:
Quote
Faraday paradox unipolar dynamo demo Part1   38,653 views  Aug 27, 2014     plenum88       1.57K subscribers   
The experimental setup looks a bit sub-par for one, motor wires running right past the open box of the preamp... not the end of the world, but attention to detail is nice to see. Nothing about the experiment is itself proved, the properties/polarity/field-distribution of the magnet is not demonstrated and the pre-amp isn't demonstrated to be true and linear, if I were more suspicious, I would be wanting to see what the black coax leading from amp to scope was doing off-camera.

Of the many more test cases I would want to be seeing, which are unfortunately very difficult to do, a few are: the entire test rig (including scope) rotating, and TBH all permutations and combinations or rotatables in fixed, forward, and reverse; the same combinations repeated with the sliding contacts removed from the surface and also repeated with a fixed short at the ends; and the geometry, spacing, and angle of contact with the disc varied in a few combinations. Eliminating the variables like that does two things, generates more test cases for the proposed theory, and provides more avenues to distinction with competing explanations.
I had a close look at pretty much every Faraday Disc Paradox youtube a couple of years ago, & i think that they all agreed re what did or didn’t happen. I agree with u that there are many variables, but the experiments don’t need to be very exact, they merely need to show which box to tick (rather than provide accurate numbers or something).
However i see that Einsteinist's claim that STR ticks them boxes too. I will have to look into that, but i need to deal with Veritasium & Co first. I could have started a separate thread for the Faraday Disc Paradox, but i could see some overlap, which now eludes me today.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2022, 11:46:22 am »
But firstly i think that i would need to bounce my half baked amateur ideas off professionals, eg on this forum.

I think a physics forum is a better bet.
 

Offline aetheristTopic starter

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2022, 11:48:14 am »
Why did it have to wait for me to come along, a mere civil engineer, allergic to electricity, to point the problem out to all u EEs.
From the way you write and the way you argue, I find it very hard to believe that you even finished  secondary school. Where did you study Civil Engineering?
I studied in my home town of Ballarat. My average grades were about 51/100, but i got the same salary as the good students. I think that i did Electricity-1 & Electricity-2. And they fed me that krapp about drifting electrons. Little did i know that one day i would discover the true cause of electricity along a wire, ie a new particle, the elekton.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 06:41:31 am by aetherist »
 

Offline aetheristTopic starter

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2022, 11:52:55 am »
But firstly i think that i would need to bounce my half baked amateur ideas off professionals, eg on this forum.
I think a physics forum is a better bet.
None of the main physics forums allow any badmouthing of anything Einsteinian. I have been banned from at least 3 ovem.
 

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2022, 12:26:10 pm »
So, your arguments didn't convince the physicists. Do you think EEs are an easier prey?
Everybody likes gadgets. Until they try to make them.
 
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Offline aetheristTopic starter

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2022, 01:19:09 pm »
So, your arguments didn't convince the physicists. Do you think EEs are an easier prey?
I have enjoyed finding the truth about things. It has been a slow process. I wish that i had had someone to steer me. I want to do some steering, & raise awareness. On this forum it will of course be mostly about electricity. I think that a lot of people understand & agree with what i say, but i am not surprised that no-one has said so. EEs have been preyed upon, slaves for 117 years, i want to set them free & help end the Einsteinian Dark Age of science/electricity.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2022, 03:03:37 am by aetherist »
 

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2022, 02:49:48 pm »
So, your arguments didn't convince the physicists. Do you think EEs are an easier prey?
I have enjoyed finding the truth about things. It has been a slow process. I wish that i had had someone to steer me. I want to do some steering, & raise awareness. On this forum it will of course be mostly about electricity. I think that a lot of people understand & agree with what i say, but i am not surprised that no-one has said so. EEs have been preyed upon, i want to set them free.
I do not agree with a single thing you said. The electon theory is absolute nonsense.
 
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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2022, 06:06:26 pm »
:palm::palm::palm::palm::palm::palm::palm:
 

Offline aetheristTopic starter

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2022, 09:37:28 pm »
Quote
The Veritasium youtube etc tells us that drifting electrons drifting at (Veritasium says) 0.3 mm/s in the lab frame have the same spacings (center to center) as the Cu nuclei (ie protons)(which are stationary in the lab frame).
Veritasium & Co have to invoke that postulate, koz they know that a stationary charge is not attracted or repelled by a wire carrying an electric current.
But, if, when there is zero electric current, the electron to electron spacing is the same as the proton to proton spacing, then, when the current is turned on, & electrons drift, surely STR demands that in the lab frame the electron to electron spacing will be contracted.
In which case the wire will have a negative charge in the lab frame.

STRIKE-1.   So, the STR explanation of the magnetomotive force fails at the first pitch, which was an easy meatball.
However, i will keep going, koz this Einsteinian farce has an astonishing number of fudges pushes & stupid postulates.
Here (below in italics)(& in the linked pdf)(& in the three jpg attached below) is what Purcell says in his own version of the pathetic Einsteinian attempt to wave away this STR catastrophe (that i call STRIKE-1).
https://cdn.bc-pf.org/resources/physics/Theory/Purcell-electricity_and_magnetism_3rd_edition.pdf
I say that we all agree that there is zero force on a stationary test charge in the lab frame when there is no electric current in the stationary wire.

I say that Einsteinists (eg Purcell) need to explain why the force remains zero, when the current is switched on. 

I say that (when the current is switched on) STR demands that the electron to electron spacings of the conduction electrons must (suddenly) contract, due to their (sudden) drift velocity, in which case the wire must (suddenly) have a nett negative charge, in which case the (say positive)(stationary) test charge must be (suddenly) attracted. 
But, Einsteinists wave away this obvious catastrophe by working backwards. (1) They admit that we all know that there is zero force (after the current is switched on), & (2) then they say that this zero force can only be zero if the electron to electron spacings of the (now) drifting electrons are the same as the (stationary) proton to proton spacings, & (3) then they explain that – well, actually, they don’t explain, they don’t explain how it is that the electron to electron spacings stay the same, ie before & after the current is switched on. What a disaster.


In the lab frame of Fig. 5.22(a), with spatial coordinates x, y, z, there is a line of positive charges, at rest and extending to infinity in both directions. We shall call them ions for short. Indeed, they might represent the copper ions that constitute the solid substance of a copper wire. There is also a line of negative charges that we shall call electrons. These are all moving to the right with speed v0. In a real wire the electrons would be intermingled with the ions; we’ve separated them in the diagram for clarity. The linear density of positive charge is λ0.
It happens that the linear density of negative charge along the line of electrons is exactly equal in magnitude.
That is, any given length of “wire” contains at a given instant the same number of electrons and protons.
[/u] 
[9] [9 It doesn’t have to, but that equality can always be established, if we choose, by adjusting the number of electrons per unit length. In our idealized setup, we assume this has been done.]
The net charge on the wire is zero. Gauss’s law tells us there can be no flux from a cylinder that contains no charge, so the electric field must be zero everywhere outside the wire. A test charge q at rest near this wire experiences no force whatsoever.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2022, 09:18:58 pm by aetherist »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2022, 10:42:36 pm »
But firstly i think that i would need to bounce my half baked amateur ideas off professionals, eg on this forum.
I think a physics forum is a better bet.
None of the main physics forums allow any badmouthing of anything Einsteinian. I have been banned from at least 3 ovem.

So should we just move this thread over to the dodgy technology section now?
FYI for all those involved, there is no rule against posting wacky physics or free energy stuff etc here. So you are free to post your stuff here, just don't expect anyone to engage with it.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2022, 10:44:53 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline aetheristTopic starter

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2022, 11:41:15 pm »
But firstly i think that i would need to bounce my half baked amateur ideas off professionals, eg on this forum.
I think a physics forum is a better bet.
None of the main physics forums allow any badmouthing of anything Einsteinian. I have been banned from at least 3 ovem.
So should we just move this thread over to the dodgy technology section now?
FYI for all those involved, there is no rule against posting wacky physics or free energy stuff etc here. So you are free to post your stuff here, just don't expect anyone to engage with it.
General Technical Chat or Dodgy Technology. I dont know which might get more engagement.
I think that i have at least 3 more postings that i should make re the shortcomings of the (fake) STR cause of mmf.
 

Offline aetheristTopic starter

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2022, 07:04:41 am »
So, your arguments didn't convince the physicists. Do you think EEs are an easier prey?
I have enjoyed finding the truth about things. It has been a slow process. I wish that i had had someone to steer me. I want to do some steering, & raise awareness. On this forum it will of course be mostly about electricity. I think that a lot of people understand & agree with what i say, but i am not surprised that no-one has said so. EEs have been preyed upon, i want to set them free.
I do not agree with a single thing you said. The elekton theory is absolute nonsense.
My new (elekton) elekticity isn’t especially helpful in this present thread, ie it duznt tell us the cause of the magnetic field around a wire, or the causes of the magnetomotive forces.
This present thread merely explains that the STR explanation of the magnetomotive force on a moving charged particle is impossible.
And i explain how the magnetomotive force on a moving charged particle in fact falsifies STR length contraction, it is not the touted shining example of an STR success.
But i don’t attempt to invent my own theory for the magnetic field & the magnetomotive force near a wire. However, the true cause will not be due to drifting electrons, nor to STR.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 06:43:27 am by aetherist »
 

Offline aetheristTopic starter

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Re: Veritasium -- How Special Relativity Makes Magnets Work.
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2022, 07:18:32 am »
I had a look at the youtube by (Derek) Veritasium (link below). And 2 youtubes by (Nick) The Science Asylum (i will show links later).
All of these Einsteinian STR explanations for the relativistic cause of magnetism near a wire carrying an electric current are krapp. I will show links & i will point out errors later.
Genuine question, why don't you make response video?
Oh, well. Now it's official. The EEVBlog has become a haven for crankery. Pseudo-scientific claims are now "genuine questions". At least this gives us a purpose in life: debunk them.
I welcome debunking of my debunking of the STR cause of magnetomotive force (on this thread). And debunking of my elekton elekticity (on the other Veritasium thread).
One strike & i am out.
But up to now i have hit every pitch out of the park.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2023, 12:17:46 am by aetherist »
 


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