Author Topic: Video on planned obsolescence.  (Read 16991 times)

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Offline cdevTopic starter

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Video on planned obsolescence.
« on: April 03, 2021, 10:27:17 pm »
The title is good.

"This is why we can't have nice things"

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2021, 01:02:45 am »

Surprisingly many people will argue there is no such thing as planned obsolescence...
 
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Offline MikeK

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2021, 01:20:00 am »

Surprisingly many people will argue there is no such thing as planned obsolescence...

And people will argue that it exists where it doesn't, or where it's just incompetence or cost-cutting.  "Yeah, maaaaan, they had a carburetor back in the 70's that got 100MPG maaaaaan.  But they don't want you to know."
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2021, 02:05:41 am »

Surprisingly many people will argue there is no such thing as planned obsolescence...

And people will argue that it exists where it doesn't, or where it's just incompetence or cost-cutting.  "Yeah, maaaaan, they had a carburetor back in the 70's that got 100MPG maaaaaan.  But they don't want you to know."

Sure, but that's not what was being discussed in the video:   we are talking about hard-core planned obsolescence.

I can see it could be hard for e.g. an Apple fan-boi to admit they are being taken advantage of this way, but nevertheless, that is what is happening to them.
 

Offline Ground_Loop

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2021, 03:31:44 am »
I would argue that most of what is claimed to be planned obsolescence is actually marketers and engineers providing a product aligned with a price point that people are willing to buy it.
There's no point getting old if you don't have stories.
 
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Offline I wanted a rude username

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2021, 03:43:25 am »
"Value engineering" is obviously the norm, but that's not the central thesis of this video.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2021, 03:47:02 am »
I would argue that most of what is claimed to be planned obsolescence is actually marketers and engineers providing a product aligned with a price point that people are willing to buy it.

Not sure I get what you mean?  - a cheaply made product breaks and isn't worth fixing...  fine, we all get that.

A light bulb where a lot of work went into reducing its life so they could sell more...   what do you call that?  "Value engineering" from the perspective of the shareholders, perhaps?  :D
 

Online wraper

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2021, 03:51:58 am »
In regards to incandescent bulbs, I do not agree it's a planned obsolescence just by itself. You have to trade off between lifetime and brightness, light whiteness and efficiency. As you decrease filament temperature to increase it's lifetime, bulb becomes less efficient as it's spectrum shifts more towards IR, thus more energy is spent on heating ambient rather than usable light. And light no longer will be "white" and will have a strong yellow/red tint. As a confirmation of that, I can assure you that bulbs produced in Soviet union did not last a tad longer. And their planned economy did not bother with planned obsolescence to ensure future sales. If anything, they would be more happy to spend less resources on producing consumer goods, and more on military. If something did not last, it was simply because it was crap due to negligence, low quality materials or similar reasons, not because it was intentionally designed to not last.
Longevity of incandescent bulb can be easily increased a lot at virtually no cost, however you will not like how it works.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 04:13:38 am by wraper »
 
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Offline BrokenYugo

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2021, 04:59:01 am »
I find the term similar to the legal term "entrapment", in that the accusation is made at least a million times more often than it actually happens.

I find it funny the dude claims a LED light bulb is the opposite case and nearly everlasting, when most are running too few LEDs too hard to keep costs down, and as a result produce a bulb that quickly dims, is of lower luminous efficiency and prematurely fails...
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2021, 05:57:04 am »
I find the term similar to the legal term "entrapment", in that the accusation is made at least a million times more often than it actually happens.

I find it funny the dude claims a LED light bulb is the opposite case and nearly everlasting, when most are running too few LEDs too hard to keep costs down, and as a result produce a bulb that quickly dims, is of lower luminous efficiency and prematurely fails...

That's exactly the case with LED bulbs. It's possible to make them last nearly forever, but you need to run the LEDs at low current and that means you need a LOT of LEDs and they are expensive. If you offer a bulb that lasts 15,000 hours and costs $5 next to one that lasts 50,000 hours but costs $15 people will buy the $5 bulb 9 times out of 10. Heck most people will buy the 75 cent incandescent bulb that only lasts 750 hours and costs far more in energy than is saved in the purchase price. Heck it's easy to make a 75 cent incandescent bulb that lasts 50,000 hours but it will consume several times more energy per lumen of light you get than the 750 hour bulb. There's no free lunch.

You hit the nail on the head, planned obsolescence does exist, but the vast majority of the time when someone points something out as planned obsolescence that is not really what is going on. It's just cost engineering, adjusting the cost/lifespan compromise to the lowest cost that will still result in most units lasting through the warranty.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 05:59:00 am by james_s »
 
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Offline Ground_Loop

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2021, 12:17:36 pm »
I would argue that most of what is claimed to be planned obsolescence is actually marketers and engineers providing a product aligned with a price point that people are willing to buy it.

Not sure I get what you mean?  - a cheaply made product breaks and isn't worth fixing...  fine, we all get that.

A light bulb where a lot of work went into reducing its life so they could sell more...   what do you call that?  "Value engineering" from the perspective of the shareholders, perhaps?  :D

I said 'most.'  And having been an engineer involved with consumer products, we design and manufacture things that people are willing to buy based largely on marketing input. If we make it last forever it will be too expensive and no one will buy it. If we make it fail immediately we won't sell past the first few units.  So much of what people decry as planned obsolescence is actually a result of trade offs to optimally support market demand.
There's no point getting old if you don't have stories.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2021, 12:25:42 pm »


The point about not confusing planned obsolescence with value engineering is reasonable enough.



The definition of planned obsolescence

Planned obsolescence is a policy of planning or designing a product with an artificially limited useful life or a purposely frail design, so that it becomes obsolete after a certain pre-determined period of time upon which it decrementally functions or suddenly ceases to function, or might be perceived as unfashionable.

The rationale behind this strategy is to generate long-term sales volume by reducing the time between repeat purchases (referred to as "shortening the replacement cycle").

It is the deliberate shortening of a lifespan of a product to force people to purchase functional replacements.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2021, 12:44:12 pm »
I would then replace planned obsolescene with "cloud-based", or "connected service", or whatever other money trap.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2021, 01:05:23 pm »
I would then replace planned obsolescene with "cloud-based", or "connected service", or whatever other money trap.

LOL yes, the ultimate example - "shortening the replacement cycle" to just one month at a time!  :D
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2021, 01:52:55 pm »
This kind of thinking is often applied to people. On another blog I recounted a story of how doctors discovered that low doses of a popular and inexpensive sleeping medication (zolpidem, or "Ambien" is one, there are several other"z-drugs" ) would bring some people in deep comas (who had been on the verge of being declared irreversibly brain dead, out of the comas for a brief period of time. And they would temporarily recover but then as the medication wore off they would lose them again.

See "Effect of Zolpidem in the Aftermath of Traumatic Brain Injury: An MEG Study."


and others..
linked at: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=zolpidem%20coma

This discovery has led to a lot of new research on certain kinds of strokes, Write this down however in case any of your loved ones has serious stroke or other TBI and is in a coma..

One would think this story would make everybody happy that these people might be revived, but, no.  Instead I got critical email from people who I now call Malthusians, who want old or sick people to die sooner. They really do.

Frankly, they scare the shit out of me.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 02:07:36 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
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Offline cdevTopic starter

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2021, 02:09:52 pm »

Surprisingly many people will argue there is no such thing as planned obsolescence...

They are often the same people who are planning it. They are up to no good.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdevTopic starter

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2021, 02:16:17 pm »
I would argue that most of what is claimed to be planned obsolescence is actually marketers and engineers providing a product aligned with a price point that people are willing to buy it.


I think that like almost everything, its an optimization tradeoff, what tradeoffs do you make, based on what you know. Nothing lasts forever. Nobody expects that. But, people don't expect a timer in their products that makes them stop working after the warranteed period runs out. (the worst case scenario, which I think should be illegal.)

This reminds me of the double meaning in the use of the word "sustainable" these days. Sometimes, "sustainable" has a double meaning and not in a good way. With it actually meaning "profitable enough" . I'll leave it up to you to figure out where those uses are,l don't want to get into arguments about it.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 02:19:27 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline madires

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2021, 03:30:22 pm »
Have you noticed that after the Phoebus cartel was shut down standard incandescent bulbs are still rated for only 1000h? Business as usual - it doesn't need a cartel.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2021, 03:36:36 pm »
Have you noticed that after the Phoebus cartel was shut down standard incandescent bulbs are still rated for only 1000h? Business as usual - it doesn't need a cartel.
If you increase longevity, you will decrease lumens per consumed power, as I already mentioned. You will make more durable product but much worse overall.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2021, 03:45:48 pm »
Like 42W halogen bulbs rated for 1500h (former replacement for standard 60W bulbs)?
 

Offline Miyuki

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2021, 03:57:27 pm »
Have you noticed that after the Phoebus cartel was shut down standard incandescent bulbs are still rated for only 1000h? Business as usual - it doesn't need a cartel.
If you increase longevity, you will decrease lumens per consumed power, as I already mentioned. You will make more durable product but much worse overall.
There are, especially for cars headlight, light bulbs with like +25% or even +50% light output at the same power
But they pay for it with a very short life compared to standard ones
 

Online wraper

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2021, 03:59:58 pm »
Like 42W halogen bulbs rated for 1500h (former replacement for standard 60W bulbs)?
It's a different technology. It's comparing apples with oranges. Even for halogen, there is no way around trading off between performance and durability. You just choose what you consider a sweet spot.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 04:02:42 pm by wraper »
 

Offline BrokenYugo

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2021, 04:33:53 pm »
Like 42W halogen bulbs rated for 1500h (former replacement for standard 60W bulbs)?

Nature of the beast. The point of halogen is you can crank up the filament temperature (and thus efficiency) because magic chemistry inside the bulb puts the boiled off tungsten back on the filament, bringing the lifespan back to something tolerable.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2021, 04:52:07 pm »
Have you noticed that after the Phoebus cartel was shut down standard incandescent bulbs are still rated for only 1000h? Business as usual - it doesn't need a cartel.
If you increase longevity, you will decrease lumens per consumed power, as I already mentioned. You will make more durable product but much worse overall.

I don't understand the science behind that assertion - why would increased lifetime correlate with light output as a percentage of power consumed?
 

Online wraper

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Re: Video on planned obsolescence.
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2021, 04:54:51 pm »
Have you noticed that after the Phoebus cartel was shut down standard incandescent bulbs are still rated for only 1000h? Business as usual - it doesn't need a cartel.
If you increase longevity, you will decrease lumens per consumed power, as I already mentioned. You will make more durable product but much worse overall.

I don't understand the science behind that assertion - why would increased lifetime correlate with light output as a percentage of power consumed?
As you decrease filament temperature to increase it's lifetime, bulb becomes less efficient as it's spectrum shifts more towards IR, thus more energy is spent on heating ambient rather than usable light. And light no longer will be "white" and will have a strong yellow/red tint.

« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 04:57:30 pm by wraper »
 
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