EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: fcb on September 19, 2015, 10:15:58 am
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Now I've owned quite a few VW/AUDI cars - I like them, however this leaves a very sour taste:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34298259 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34298259)
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/business/volkswagen-is-ordered-to-recall-nearly-500000-vehicles-over-emissions-software.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/business/volkswagen-is-ordered-to-recall-nearly-500000-vehicles-over-emissions-software.html?_r=0)
http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/09/volkswagen-group-must-recall-500000-diesel-cars-for-cheating-on-smog-tests/ (http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/09/volkswagen-group-must-recall-500000-diesel-cars-for-cheating-on-smog-tests/)
I wonder how high up the development food chain this goes? Ultimately some firmware (or team of) engineer must have questioned the morality of not only writing, but installing this code in the ECU?
It'll be interesting to see how VW Group is going to handle this? What will happen if the EU gets stuck into this - a large majority of VW/AUDI's in the EU are Diesel..
EDIT: Here's the EPA notice to VW: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf (http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf)
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Wow that is bad, I hope they send them to jail for fraud.
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Page 4 of the EPA letter to VW is quite a shocking accusation. Love the plain English.
And that 2.0L diesel is EVERYWHERE in the EU - I wonder if it has the same 'Road Calibration' firmware? They are somewhat f##k'd if it does (the EU are bound to steer their gaze in VW's direction), and if it doesn't then the wind is sucked out of their main defense in the US.
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Dyno detection is an open secret in the industry for quite some years. You'd bet that all the big companies that need to fulfill strict regulations try to "optimize" this way or the other.
Where dyno detection is probably not the worst thing to do.
Anyway, the focus on VW is most probably unfair and more or less a matter of protecting the US car industry. GM took some major hits lately.
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Now I've owned quite a few VW/AUDI cars - I like them, however this leaves a very sour taste:
I wonder how high up the development food chain this goes? Ultimately some firmware (or team of) engineer must have questioned the morality of not only writing, but installing this code in the ECU?
It'll be interesting to see how VW Group is going to handle this? What will happen if the EU gets stuck into this - a large majority of VW/AUDI's in the EU are Diesel..
EDIT: Here's the EPA notice to VW: http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf (http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf)
Sorry but there is nothing new here. ALL car manufacturers have software in their ECU which detects government issued test cycles and adjust engine parameters accordingly to pass the test and/or getting lower fuel consumption numbers.
Modern diesels are not very reliable in general due to the emission control systems and high pressure fuel systems. Therefore a lot of people have the particle filter and exhaust recirculation valve disabled to prevent damage to the engine. Even with these modifications they still pass annual emission testing.
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So basically it detects that you are running it as a stationary generator and adjusts to a low emission mode instead of a performance mode.
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They will most likely claim the "software" optimizes the engine performance according to conditions and the test happens to be one of those conditions where the engine performance is optimized in such a way that may or may not reflect actual real life performance.
:phew: that was a mouthful.
Maybe the EPA will create a new ECU software review department juuuust to make sure there is no funny business going on in the code.
Now that will be something !!!
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They will most likely claim the "software" optimizes the engine performance according to conditions and the test happens to be one of those conditions where the engine performance is optimized in such a way that may or may not reflect actual real life performance.
In the PDF it says VW has admitted to put an algorithm in the software which detects a test cycle and switches the ECU into a low emissions mode. IOW: VW has admitted cheating.
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The whole point of these tests is to identify vehicles that put out TOXIC NOx and CARCINOGENIC diesel particulates and rate them accordingly. That shit is breathed in by you, me and our children.
This maybe an open secret in the industry, but obviously not to the wider world.
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Anyway, the focus on VW is most probably unfair and more or less a matter of protecting the US car industry. GM took some major hits lately.
So you think it's just a protectionist measure huh??????? Bollocks.
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The visible soot from a diesel is far less harmless than the really small particles. And guess what the emission control systems do on a diesel: create way more of the small and harmfull particles :palm:
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So, the question is, if you were the firmware guy (or anyone in the chain, testing etc), would you have complied and done this, or refused?
Secretly reported them?
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So, the question is, if you were the firmware guy (or anyone in the chain, testing etc), would you have complied and done this, or refused?
Secretly reported them?
Would depend on my contract. Whistle blowing is a bad thing nowadays, and if whistle blowing about governments gets you treated like Manning or Snowden just imagine what whistle blowing on the worlds governments corporate masters gets you.
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So, the question is, if you were the firmware guy (or anyone in the chain, testing etc), would you have complied and done this, or refused?
Secretly reported them?
I bet there was some disquiet amongst the firmware team. Sadly, unless this all comes to court, we are unlikely to ever know.
Unlike the Toyota unintended acceleration issue, this is a deliberate act of wool-pulling and the penalties could be VERY large.
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So, the question is, if you were the firmware guy (or anyone in the chain, testing etc), would you have complied and done this, or refused?
Secretly reported them?
Nothing worse than a deliberate cheater. :palm: :--
Down they go IMO, this has a negative effect on society, turn them in. The world needs more good people that won't stand for this kind of BS.
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So, the question is, if you were the firmware guy (or anyone in the chain, testing etc), would you have complied and done this, or refused?
Secretly reported them?
Some people here seem to have a wrong impression of the complexity of automotive SW and the processes involved.
It's not like a few people hack some firmware with some functions. This kind of software got actually quite big and complex meanwhile with requirement specs, autocoding, several abstraction layers.
Anyway, it's not the job of a SW developer to decide whether a function gets in or not.
And even of everybody seems to ignore this: it's not like only VW does this. I'd bet everybody in the industry does things like this - and worse.
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WV puts the interests of its customers first. I like it.
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Very likely something along the lines of:
"Uh boss, I'm not sure we should do the thing."
"Do the thing because I said so."
"Yabbut, this part right here pretty explicitly says that the thing is illegal."
"Do it anyway!"
"*Loud sigh* alright fine, I hereby release any responsibility to the actions resulting from this. As my contract probably says. You're on your own, boss-dude."
"That's fine. I've got a few spare mil knocking about. They can't jail me for any number of reasons, and a fine is but a slap on the wrist."
And it's all true, too; if anyone is even charged (which I guess seems likely, but I don't know how these sorts of violations generally play out), it'll just be a modest fine, amounting to a small percentage of total sales related to the thing in question.
For the most part, law is set up so that willful violations can be, and are, considered in the realm of normal operating procedure. It's not a matter of "we shouldn't do this at all", or even "we should just not get caught", but "we'll do the thing, and it'll cost us about X in fines and legal fees, but we'll earn Y (> X) in the process".
As for the morality of deferred responsibility, that's always up for grabs, but it's generally accepted in practice that your superior always holds the final say, and responsibility, in such matters. Whether that actually leaves any impact upon them is a matter for the courts, and those who create the laws which the courts must follow.
Tim
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I don't consider that "cheating". Government requests certain pollution figures under certain, well defined conditions (standarized dyno test runs). Engineers optimize their software to meet these demands. They got what they asked for, so what? :-//
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"we'll do the thing, and it'll cost us about X in fines and legal fees, but we'll earn Y (> X) in the process".
Exactly my thoughts. Not the first time the auto industry has done this math. Wasn't the gm ignition switches the same equation? Cheaper to settle a few deaths than recall everything.
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I don't consider that "cheating". Government requests certain pollution figures under certain, well defined conditions (standarized dyno test runs). Engineers optimize their software to meet these demands. They got what they asked for, so what? :-//
Page 6, Article 5, phrase 2c:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32007R0715&from=EN (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32007R0715&from=EN)
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I don't consider that "cheating". Government requests certain pollution figures under certain, well defined conditions (standarized dyno test runs). Engineers optimize their software to meet these demands. They got what they asked for, so what? :-//
You can very easily do that for electromagnetic compatibility as well. The overall intents and responsibilities are very similar: avoiding pollution of common resources and preventing interference with other users of those resources. Of course the scale, speed and mechanism are very different (chemical, delayed and dependent on weather, versus electromagnetic, instantaneous and generally local), but the general idea is the same.
When testing in the lab, you must define a specific configuration (of the device, cables, etc.), preferably a typical use-case including attached cables, programming and operation, etc. There's tons of room for cheating here: omitting cables on noisy outputs; "stealth mode" programming; orienting cables in a particular pattern to reduce radiation; etc. You don't need to represent it very fairly, at least until those cases generate enough complaints that you get into hot water (see above for a similar example!). It's for your own good (you're liable!) and the good of your users, and those nearby who may be using important services on the airwaves, that your test be as representative as reasonably possible.
One would therefore expect, in the normal course of operation (high and low throttle, acceleration, idling, cruising, high and low atmospheric temperature, humidity, pressure (altitude) and so on), that it may occasionally blow outside the regulated limits. But so long as the test case is representative of the average condition, it should be fine.
And it seems the finding here is that it was not so adequately represented, which is a problem.
Tim
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"we'll do the thing, and it'll cost us about X in fines and legal fees, but we'll earn Y (> X) in the process".
Exactly my thoughts. Not the first time the auto industry has done this math. Wasn't the gm ignition switches the same equation? Cheaper to settle a few deaths than recall everything.
Ralph Nader highlighted this in the 70's with "Unsafe at any speed".
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I don't consider that "cheating". Government requests certain pollution figures under certain, well defined conditions (standarized dyno test runs). Engineers optimize their software to meet these demands. They got what they asked for, so what? :-//
You can very easily do that for electromagnetic compatibility as well. The overall intents and responsibilities are very similar: avoiding pollution of common resources and preventing interference with other users of those resources. Of course the scale, speed and mechanism are very different (chemical, delayed and dependent on weather, versus electromagnetic, instantaneous and generally local), but the general idea is the same.
When testing in the lab, you must define a specific configuration (of the device, cables, etc.), preferably a typical use-case including attached cables, programming and operation, etc. There's tons of room for cheating here: omitting cables on noisy outputs; "stealth mode" programming; orienting cables in a particular pattern to reduce radiation; etc. You don't need to represent it very fairly, at least until those cases generate enough complaints that you get into hot water (see above for a similar example!). It's for your own good (you're liable!) and the good of your users, and those nearby who may be using important services on the airwaves, that your test be as representative as reasonably possible.
One would therefore expect, in the normal course of operation (high and low throttle, acceleration, idling, cruising, high and low atmospheric temperature, humidity, pressure (altitude) and so on), that it may occasionally blow outside the regulated limits. But so long as the test case is representative of the average condition, it should be fine.
And it seems the finding here is that it was not so adequately represented, which is a problem.
Tim
I agree that there are parallels with EMC to some extent.
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I don't consider that "cheating". Government requests certain pollution figures under certain, well defined conditions (standarized dyno test runs). Engineers optimize their software to meet these demands. They got what they asked for, so what? :-//
I agree. I'm a bit more au fait with petrol than diesel, but it the emissions are only tested at certain loads and RPM (and NOx isn't even tested for on the UK MOT). Engines are free to run outside of normal closed loop control during e.g. wide open throttle.
I imagine the same scenario is employed with diesels. The social engineers don't like it. Funny how they let public transport blow all the shit they want out of their exhausts.
It's not that they deliberatey "detect an emissions test" and hoodwink it (just how the fuck is that meant to happen?). They must run emissions control in regular 90%+ of driving modes and only switch it off when engine is under heavy load (like WOT). Nothing wrong with that.
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I agree. I'm a bit more au fait with petrol than diesel, but it the emissions are only tested at certain loads and RPM (and NOx isn't even tested for on the UK MOT).
It is, depending on the age of the car. If it wasn't a consideration when the car was made it's not tested for though. But meh, the same is true of seatbelts.
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I will bet that the fault will be passed off to the supplier of the ECU, or the design team that did it.
Remember that a vehicle manufacturer is more an assembler, they buy in most of the parts from suppliers external to them, just for this reason. Very few ( Tesla comes to mind) design the majority of the parts down to the smallest levels and assemble them from the raw materials up to the finished product. Very difficult to do steel, copper, PCB, aluminium casting, gear hobbing, friction manufacture, battery casting, wire harness manufacturing, paint formulation, upholstery, injection moulding, tyre manufacture and nut and bolt founding all under one roof. You have either specialist suppliers of spin off separate companies to do this, or buy from companies that make massive volumes where you benefit from economy of scale.
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What customer is willingly going to let their car be recalled?
"Hey, bring your car in so we can give you ECU software that ruins your MPG"
There was a similar fuss in the GPU industry, with graphic drivers detecting when they were undergoing a throughput test.
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I Also believe it was said somewhere that intel was doing the same with its CPU's and on die graphics, focusing resources on ways to improve how they scored in benchmarks over real world applications,
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People are surprised that multi billion dollar profit companies comply with the letter of the law and not the spirit, and cut it as close as possible, running through loop-holes? Bad news guys, if you want to be a professional engineer, then from time to time you will be required to do things that are less than snowy white. It is inherently part of the cost and performance optimisation process that means you will get very close to the line, either morally or legally.
With petrol engines, the whole move to turbo charging is to evade emissions tests and, shall we say, optimise specific performance over a given envelope. Diesels aren't much different. I have no reason to believe that VAG are any more morally bankrupt than anyone else. With regards to engineers, this will have been instigated and must have been signed off by senior management. Conveniently, turbo and dual mass flywheel failure after a few years also makes engine repairs uneconomical and often leads to a car being scrapped long long before rust and wear ever does. Perfectly legal, but people don't realise it happens.
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I Also believe it was said somewhere that intel was doing the same with its CPU's and on die graphics, focusing resources on ways to improve how they scored in benchmarks over real world applications,
They designed it to score well in government benchmarks AND in real world applications. That's brilliant engineering.
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So, the question is, if you were the firmware guy (or anyone in the chain, testing etc), would you have complied and done this, or refused?
Secretly reported them?
I would have invented it. All those regualations, hardware and software, are a joke. Everybody in the sector knows it, and the ones that don't make their money with it say it.
And even of everybody seems to ignore this: it's not like only VW does this. I'd bet everybody in the industry does things like this - and worse.
Sure, it's only a matter of time for it to get the newspapers.
The visible soot from a diesel is far less harmless than the really small particles. And guess what the emission control systems do on a diesel: create way more of the small and harmfull particles :palm:
Parts so small the meters can't record it anymore, or with a loss. But the number that comes out of the meter is "better". Everybody happy.
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just have a look at the fuel consumption tests in the EU, and the real consumption of the cars - this test have defined conditions, and the mileage is always much better than in real live. Everyone knows, that they are doctored... start with extra-hard tires, tape over all the cleaves, perfectly minimum weight and so on. Why should one think that the engine is not optimized for this kind of tests?
Anecdotal.. I knew a guy working at BMW who was very angry, that a certain Mercedes ranked much better in this tests than the equivalent BMW - and he was angry about BMWs software guys.
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So students can be trained to spit out the required answer for a standardized test, but cars cant?
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What happens if the mandated vehicle emissions standards are incompatible with the efficient and reliable operation of the vehicle? There are engineering constraints that limit what designs are possible for long life and fuel efficiency. Legislation cannot buck physics, anymore than legislation can change the value of pi.
Perhaps vehicle manufacturers could refuse to manufacture and sell vehicles into a given market once it is not possible to make a compliant vehicle? But that won't happen because it would be commercial suicide. So what happens when all possible options are bad?
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Perhaps vehicle manufacturers could refuse to manufacture and sell vehicles into a given market once it is not possible to make a compliant vehicle? But that won't happen because it would be commercial suicide. So what happens when all possible options are bad?
I'm quite sure engines can be made more efficient and cleaner but it comes at a price. However if all the manufacturers think they can get away by cheating they will cheat. Big companies are just like little kids with no idea of the consequences of their actions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OazUh0Ym8rc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OazUh0Ym8rc)
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I don't like that legal cheating either, but we can't do anything about it. It's like tax evasion. We can't start blaming just a specific company, we have to blame our society. Another example is fuel efficiency. There's no car which meets the values given in the specs in real life. It's exactly the same legal cheating.
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Anyway, it's not the job of a SW developer to decide whether a function gets in or not.
Just following orders, eh? :-X
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Another good reason why capitalism without a regulating force is not a good idea.
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I Also believe it was said somewhere that intel was doing the same with its CPU's and on die graphics, focusing resources on ways to improve how they scored in benchmarks over real world applications,
They designed it to score well in government benchmarks AND in real world applications. That's brilliant engineering.
Yes. There are cars which have a button, if you press it, it gives you extra 100 Hp, turns off traction control, sets it to race mode. The engine characteristic of a land rover changes if you drive it offroad. A hybrid car will behave differently based on the battery level.
If government wouldnt make STUPID rules for cars, with STUPID tax systems, there wouldnt be STUPID vehicles on the road. Like 1.2 liter dual turbo bluemotion 3 cyilinder piece of crap engines, diesels below 2L and so on. No one wants a car like that. The only reason to buy that is to use it for 3-4 years, and then sell it before the stupid undersized engine dies. You sell it to some poor folk, then economic total loss, goes to landfill. Hurray we saved the economy I mean environment.
Stop making stupid laws and taxing for cars.
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Anyway, it's not the job of a SW developer to decide whether a function gets in or not.
Just following orders, eh? :-X
That is a bit of a grey area. I used to work for a company which made equipment to record phone calls. The majority of the customers where banks, public safety and call centers. I had a great time there but I also know some of my work ended up helping not so nice 'governments'. That still gives me a bad taste in my mouth. For the same reason I never applied for a job at a company nearby which does a lot of defense contracting.
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Here's how I'd do it. Have a third party write a closed firmware module that reads the accelleromter data from the traction control system and returns a true false answer based on if they think the vehicle is in motion. Tell them this is for a proprietary technology and have them sign an NDA. Tell the other developers that this module does a diagnostic check on the emissions system and gives a go ahead when tthe engine has reached operating temperature and the emissions system should be enabled. Vehicle in not in motion means enable the emissions system.
Or an even simpler way. Make the emissions system turn off after 10 or 20 minutes. So the dyno test will complete before it shuts off.
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Just following orders, eh? :-X
Wow, the sheer magnitude of ignorance leaves me speechless.
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So, the question is, if you were the firmware guy (or anyone in the chain, testing etc), would you have complied and done this, or refused?
Secretly reported them?
I have whistle-blown twice in my life.
Once, internally, when I felt at first I was given lip service by reporting it internally initially, eventually it turned out that my actions were taken as part of a larger ongoing investigation that caused action. What irritated me the most was that I was positively disuaded from registering my concerns by my line manager at the time: "I'd rather you didn't" which, after a couple of nights' sleep, made me even more certain I should escalate it. Truth was, they already knew about it, but had not realised how endemic it was.
Second time, I was relatively a new hire although had worked there recently before also under contract, there was a glaring problem of data confidentiality where personal data was sent over the public internet encrypted, but the user ids and passwords to access -and- amend the data was not encrypted. Although there was a supposed recourse internally, it was not made easily available, and did not seem appropriate as I knew from previous engagements that this was endemic. I went directly to the regulator. The result was swift and taken very seriously.
In both cases the end result for me was very, very positive, although on both occasions I feared for my job. I should not have worried. As a result I ended up with various technical risk roles, and still do consult regularly on that aspect to the same entities where I whistle blew.
While I am not saying that all whistle blowers have the same response, for me it has, in the end, worked in a positive way, and I encourage it. I am not a trouble maker, far from it, but when something looks wrong, I make sure my arse is covered. The nature of the businesses where this happened? One is a very large US based multinational bank and the other is a government regulator. |O
Whistle blowing should be positively encouraged. It is all too often discouraged. If you don't feel you can discuss something with your line manager -and- there is not an -easy- way to express your concerns without needing to do it for your line manager, either passively or otherwise, there is a problem. Equally, you may find, as I did, an unexpected benefit and respect from your moral stance.
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They're just trying to keep up with US automotive enthusiast trends... ^-^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AyJBX1HFr0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AyJBX1HFr0)
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They're just trying to keep up with US automotive enthusiast trends... ^-^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AyJBX1HFr0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AyJBX1HFr0)
I had a similar effect once with my previous diesel car when the engine's under temperature protection kicked in during overtaking. Its not fun when the engine stops working during overtaking but I also think it scared the crap out of the drivers behind me due to the enormous amounts of black smoke coming from my car.
By the way: if this system really works by injecting more diesel into the cylinders then it will be short lived. It is easy to burn a hole in the pistons if too much fuel is injected. I think it works by injecting diesel into the exhaust manifold. An alternative would be glycol based liquids like being used in fog machines >:D
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I wonder if they have been cheating in Europe as well (it might have less to do with power and mileage than with maintenance under warranty by the way, mileage reduction from back pressure is often exaggerated by an order of magnitude).
I did notice with the latest version of the VW Crafter that unlike previous models you never really got "full" filters any more (where you needed some time at high way speeds to clear it). Although maybe they just started using regeneration at lower speeds, dunno.
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SUE THEM INTO OBLIVION. And throw their managers and anyone who worked on this firmware or who knew about it, all the way to the top, in jail for the rest of their life. reason : Crimes against humanity.
And this has nothing to do with me working for an electric car company. I drove Volkswagen cars for years, and liked them very much.
But cheating like that ? That is just ... not done.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34303708 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34303708)
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Anyway, it's not the job of a SW developer to decide whether a function gets in or not.
Just following orders, eh? :-X
And you would surrend your fellow citizens to the regime in power, eh? :-X
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They're just trying to keep up with US automotive enthusiast trends... ^-^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AyJBX1HFr0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AyJBX1HFr0)
Never heard of 'coal rollers' or 'Prius repellent' before. That's creative and funny.
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SUE THEM INTO OBLIVION. And throw their managers and anyone who worked on this firmware or who knew about it, all the way to the top, in jail for the rest of their life. reason : Crimes against humanity.
And this has nothing to do with me working for an electric car company. I drove Volkswagen cars for years, and liked them very much.
But cheating like that ? That is just ... not done.
Now really: do you actually think that Diesel engines from VW/Audi are magnitudes worse than those from other manufacturers? Really? Are you aware that almost all the core component like injectors are developed by a few suppliers anyway, not by the car manufacturers? Same is true for the SW by the way. Did you ever have a look who actually produces the the ECUs, sensors and actuators in a VW or Audi?
And do you really think that things like dyno detection and other tricks like that are unknown to anybody who had a bit of insight in the industry in the last ten years or so?
If not, wouldn't you think that focusing only on VW has nothing to do with justice or caring about pollution? Isn't it interesting that this whole thing is aimed at the only market segment that VW has any success with in the US market? Dunno, but to me this smells like the good old US protectionism.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34303708 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34303708)
40 times the emission limit? :wtf: If that is not a typo then VW is in deep sh*t!
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They're just trying to keep up with US automotive enthusiast trends... ^-^
Never heard of 'coal rollers' or 'Prius repellent' before. That's creative and funny.
Little boys.
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They're just trying to keep up with US automotive enthusiast trends... ^-^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AyJBX1HFr0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AyJBX1HFr0)
Never heard of 'coal rollers' or 'Prius repellent' before. That's creative and funny.
Little boys.
Watch the first video, girls also do that.
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And this has nothing to do with me working for an electric car company.
Don't be so sure about it. Conflict of interest is a tricky thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Y8FK8gonc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Y8FK8gonc)
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They're just trying to keep up with US automotive enthusiast trends... ^-^
Never heard of 'coal rollers' or 'Prius repellent' before. That's creative and funny.
Little boys.
Watch the first video, girls also do that.
Immature children, who need to be told "No, bad boy/girl. Now go to bed!"
Happy now that I am not assigning gender roles to stupid and selfish arsehole behaviour?
Where's that ignore button?
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SUE THEM INTO OBLIVION. And throw their managers and anyone who worked on this firmware or who knew about it, all the way to the top, in jail for the rest of their life. reason : Crimes against humanity.
And this has nothing to do with me working for an electric car company. I drove Volkswagen cars for years, and liked them very much.
But cheating like that ? That is just ... not done.
Now really: do you actually think that Diesel engines from VW/Audi are magnitudes worse than those from other manufacturers? Really?
-GASP- so the other manufacturers do that too ? SUE THEM INTO OBLIVION TOO !
What is the point in setting pollution standards for cars if everyone wipes their ass on those standards ?
Time to crack down hard on this.
I hope Europe launches an investigation too.... and if they come to the same conclusion : hammer hard !
This is also interesting reading :
http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/caspers-electronics-inc-clean-air-act (http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/caspers-electronics-inc-clean-air-act)
Some company deliberately made a device to defeat the pollution control system. Why on earth would you do that ? if it because you get a few more horsepower form the car ? is it because it is cheaper installing this than having the car repaired ?
This is criminal. if it were a bit (like one to 5 percent) over the limit i would go- meh- . But 40 times over the limit ? That's like driving 1200 km/h in a 30km/h zone ... even if it were 10 times over the limit it is still driving 300km/h in a 30km zone...
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And this has nothing to do with me working for an electric car company.
Don't be so sure about it. Conflict of interest is a tricky thing.
The rules are the rules.
The emissons rules have been there for years. Deliberately cheating is a crime. simple as that. Some of these cars date back 6 years ... so this has been going on for that long.
What's next ? cheating on the safety tests ? let's also install speedometers that cheat 10km/h. oh and we could also cheat on fuel consumption while we are at it.
The rules are the rules. Cheating and getting caught leads to disqualification , everywhere. If a cyclist is caught taking illegal substances he is blocked from competing. Do the same with car makers.
Cheat the pollution limit ? no more car making for you.
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This would be the same as Tesla optimising their car to get high EPA ratings. Except that's exactly what dual-motor Model S does... it gets a higher EPA than RWD, even though in normal use, it seems to have a slightly lower range, although it's only a few percent.
All manufacturers do this, it's necessary to be market competitive, but VW seems to have taken the cake on this. I wonder if the 10~40x rating is under hard acceleration or just under normal use. I could understand that if it's under acceleration, or being driven badly then it might actually only be a few percent off in normal driving. But if that's just what it does on an EPA test with the defeat device removed that's really bad.
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What's next ? cheating on the safety tests ? let's also install speedometers that cheat 10km/h. oh and we could also cheat on fuel consumption while we are at it.
Apples and oranges. Your examples are against the interest of the car buyer. VW here provides better performance.
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What's next ? cheating on the safety tests ? let's also install speedometers that cheat 10km/h. oh and we could also cheat on fuel consumption while we are at it.
Apples and oranges. Your examples are against the interest of the car buyer. VW here provides better performance.
And who says the car buyer doesn't prefer lower emissions? Or perhaps this also affects mileage too? Consumers have the right to be well informed, all European cars now have to specify grams CO2 equiv per km in advertisements and brochures so consumers can compare.
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What's next ? cheating on the safety tests ? let's also install speedometers that cheat 10km/h.
Speedometers already cheat. Usually they show about 8% less. Interestingly the speed you can read from the ECU is more accurate so the -8% is deliberate!
@Tom66: the milage and CO2 emissions in the brochures you'll find in the EU are totally bogus due to cheating with milage testing. On average cars need 30% more fuel than it says in the brochure. This has been going on for decades now.
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-GASP- so the other manufacturers do that too ? SUE THEM INTO OBLIVION TOO !
Yes of course they do. And now to be honest: yes a Tesla might be emission free, but as long the electrical energy comes from burning coal, this is somewhat a sham as well.
What is the point in setting pollution standards for cars if everyone wipes their ass on those standards ?
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This is criminal. if it were a bit (like one to 5 percent) over the limit i would go- meh- . But 40 times over the limit ? That's like driving 1200 km/h in a 30km/h zone ... even if it were 10 times over the limit it is still driving 300km/h in a 30km zone...
Well, first of all, it's the scenario that only one company has to start and the others have to follow. Consumers are cheated all the time. Actually it seems they want to be cheated. So they buy the product with the best promises as they vote for the dickhead with the most unrealistic promises. So if you can't sell your product anymore , you're somewhat forced to cheat as well.
Secondly, politicians seem to think that raising the standards and lowering thresholds will magically improve the technical solutions. As if the manufacturers willingly implemented a bad solution and just need a little trigger to use the good one instead. Admittedly, sometimes it needs a stricter law to force a new product in the market. But most of the times, this just leads to cheating. And this is not always only because companies are greedy and mean. Most of the times it's either that the solution for improvement implicates other issues or that it increases the costs so much that consumer will buy the cheating solution instead.
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What's next ? cheating on the safety tests ? let's also install speedometers that cheat 10km/h.
Speedometers already cheat. Usually they show about 8% less. Interestingly the speed you can read from the ECU is more accurate so the -8% is deliberate!
@Tom66: the milage and CO2 emissions in the brochures you'll find in the EU are totally bogus due to cheating with milage testing. On average cars need 30% more fuel than it says in the brochure. This has been going on for decades now.
WHAT ? So if i drive exactly 50km/h according to the speedo i am actually doing 54 km/h ? What if i get a speeding ticket ? can i send it to the car manufacturer ?
Let's start making multimeters where the reading is off 8% shall we ?
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WHAT ? So if i drive exactly 50km/h according to the speedo i am actually doing 54 km/h ? What if i get a speeding ticket ? can i send it to the car manufacturer ?
No, it's exactly the other way round. They show a bit too much. So firstly you feel better that your car goes like 200km/h even though it doesn't.
And secondly your chances to get a ticket are decreased because even if you think you drive a bit faster than allowed, you actually don't.
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Well, first of all, it's the scenario that only one company has to start and the others have to follow. Consumers are cheated all the time.
Hold it. Cheating consumers and cheating the EPA rules is a different thing. Volkswagen cheated the EPA rules.
Cheating the consumers would be telling them this car can do 500km/h by tripling the numbers on the speedo. ( Like top gear did in the 'Rover James' episode , but then in reverse)
Spewing 40 times more crap than allowed into the air , on purpose, because otherwise your car behaves like a snail on valium (and nobody would buy it) ... that is a different matter.
Unless you specifically bought the car to commit suicide in your garage by running the engine, then you would be a happy camper.
Watched Racing Extinction lately ? It's time to halt this kind of behavior. We only have one planet. I am not a goat-wool socks in birkenstocks plantslaying treehugger , but we need to stop mass polluting our biosphere. This start by setting emissions rules. and enforcing them
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WHAT ? So if i drive exactly 50km/h according to the speedo i am actually doing 54 km/h ? What if i get a speeding ticket ? can i send it to the car manufacturer ?
No, it's exactly the other way round. They show a bit too much. So firstly you feel better that your car goes like 200km/h even though it doesn't.
And secondly your chances to get a ticket are decreased because even if you think you drive a bit faster than allowed, you actually don't.
That i can live with. Better safe than sorry. ( But that does not mean you can muck with my multimeter ! Don't tell me it's 220 volt if in reality it is only 5 volts. :) )
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WHAT ? So if i drive exactly 50km/h according to the speedo i am actually doing 54 km/h ? What if i get a speeding ticket ? can i send it to the car manufacturer ?
No, it's exactly the other way round. They show a bit too much. So firstly you feel better that your car goes like 200km/h even though it doesn't.
And secondly your chances to get a ticket are decreased because even if you think you drive a bit faster than allowed, you actually don't.
That i can live with. Better safe than sorry. ( But that does not mean you can muck with my multimeter ! Don't tell me it's 220 volt if in reality it is only 5 volts. :) )
But it does mean you get dirty looks on the motorway when you overtake people AT the actual speed limit (as confirmed by GPS) and they think you're going 10km/h faster.
It also means these same clowns hold up traffic when there is no safe overtaking.
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And who says the car buyer doesn't prefer lower emissions? Or perhaps this also affects mileage too?
I was talking about normal people, not the crazy fringe.
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I have a theory too that manufacturers will only ever just meet the expectations set by the government. Why bother to exceed them? That will only make it harder when you have to hit your next milestone set by the government.
If you could make your cars 50% more efficient, would you do it now, or do it over the course of the next 5 to 10 required improvement cycles?
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Cars here are heavly taxed on their emission levels. Both on their purchase price and annually. A byproduct of the Greens being elected. The taxman is going to have a field day. ..
Anyway. Vincent, how can you not know that car speedos are calibrated to give a lower reading?
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The current revisions that came in 18 months or so ago, now allow the speedometer to be up to 21% low, this is actually best seen in great wall utes, the speed will read 100km when only travelling at about 82kmph, i've since fitted electronic ration boxes to about 15 of the things,
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But cheating like that ? That is just ... not done.
Oh come on. Pontiac did it in 1973. Optimising emission control to pass the letter of government tests has been happening since the inception of emissions controls.
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Or Ford on the Pinto crash tests, where they brought in a vehicle that had come off the production line from Canada, which had the $2 optional plate added, and the shorter bolts so it would not puncture the fuel tank in a rear impact. They were supposed to bring a vehicle from the local plant, but shipped in instead from another country, so they could say with a straight face it was off a standard production line. They omitted it had the Canadian government mandated additions for sale there because of the crash results.
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What is the point in setting pollution standards for cars if everyone wipes their ass on those standards ?
This is called 'the race to the bottom'.
Why stop at car companies, how about public utilities, governments, education providers, food suppliers... virtually every level of a market driven economy!
Don't imagine for a moment that competitive business in any industry relies on the paricipants 'playing by the rules'. They play for profit - bugger anything else that gets in the way.
Assuming a null difference... If you can imagine a company that might achieve greater market share, offset by reduced profitability for an extended period... which would they take?
Follow the money.
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If they have to pay 18 billion I dare say there was no profit in it.
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The current revisions that came in 18 months or so ago, now allow the speedometer to be up to 21% low, this is actually best seen in great wall utes, the speed will read 100km when only travelling at about 82kmph, i've since fitted electronic ration boxes to about 15 of the things,
GWM, locally known as the upside down Toyota. Locally not known for reliability, there have been quite a few that had drive shafts fall off them, because the bolts used were so poor quality. Add to that the rather hit and miss build quality and the expensive spares.
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Speedometers already cheat. Usually they show about 8% less. Interestingly the speed you can read from the ECU is more accurate so the -8% is deliberate!
Not all of them. I have compared mine with those roadside "Your Speed" warning signs and also with GPS measurements. As far as I can tell from these comparisons my speedometer is accurate.
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Speedometers in the EU are only allowed to show ~10% more, never one single km/h less than the actual speed. It's the law. And that takes into account any allowed aftermarket tire/rim combo you may throw onto your car. So, yes, they show deliberately more, just to be on the safe side. And for the Tesla guys who preach morale from a higher ground, lets wait until their company gets some really stiff competition and see if they don't feel any need to cut some corners in order to stay competitive... :=\
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Where is RMS when you need him?! Open source the damn thing! :D
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Speedometers in the EU are only allowed to show ~10% more, never one single km/h less than the actual speed. It's the law. And that takes into account any allowed aftermarket tire/rim combo you may throw onto your car. So, yes, they show deliberately more, just to be on the safe side....
That's still not fully correct, see ECE R39:2011-06-07 for approval of vehicles' speed measurement.
Speedometers shall never display less than the actual speed, but not more than (+10% +4km/h) of the actual speed.
Example: While driving at 50km/h actual speed, the speedometer would be allowed to display between 50km/h and 59km/h.
As there are deviations in series production of the tyres and also the speedometer itself, the car manufacturers usually define a characteristic for the speedometer / cluster instrument, that let it always display at least a few km/h more than the actual speed. (But not more than these 4km/h +10%)
Frank
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Speedometers already cheat. Usually they show about 8% less. Interestingly the speed you can read from the ECU is more accurate so the -8% is deliberate!
Not all of them. I have compared mine with those roadside "Your Speed" warning signs and also with GPS measurements. As far as I can tell from these comparisons my speedometer is accurate.
Those roadside speed warning signs are way too optimistic (some even show 60 when I pass with 50). The only way is to use GPS + cruise control on a straight road in order to 'calibrate' the speedometer. Actually I don't get why it should show more. It would be much better if the law says it has to be accurate within 1%. It is easy to adjust the ECU for a different tire diameter if necessary.
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Those roadside speed warning signs are way too optimistic (some even show 60 when I pass with 50). The only way is to use GPS + cruise control on a straight road in order to 'calibrate' the speedometer. Actually I don't get why it should show more. It would be much better if the law says it has to be accurate within 1%. It is easy to adjust the ECU for a different tire diameter if necessary.
Not if people change their tires in the garage, and don't own a tester. +/- 5% in tire circumference is legal here in Denmark.
I can adjust tiresize in the ECU on my Citroën C5, don't know what the function does however.
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Roadside speed warning is designed to slow down the motorists, so will deliberately be set to display a higher speed than actual. Even a GPS is not too accurate at instantaneous speed, it will have errors in it due to drif of the calculated position. Only accurate one is a laser or radar doppler module operating against the surrounding scenery, or a calibrated towed wheel to get instantaneous speed.
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Roadside speed warning is designed to slow down the motorists, so will deliberately be set to display a higher speed than actual. Even a GPS is not too accurate at instantaneous speed, it will have errors in it due to drif of the calculated position. Only accurate one is a laser or radar doppler module operating against the surrounding scenery, or a calibrated towed wheel to get instantaneous speed.
Or a timed distance on flat ground. We used to calibrate the rally computers on a measured distance. You knew if the odometer was properly accurate the speed was too.
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That is only the case on rally computers, on almost all of the vehicles that show faster than there true speed the odometer shows correctly, Inface many VW cars have 3 settings in the cluster one for the impulse per km of the speedometer, and one for the odometer, and then a displayed vs actual speed mapping for the pointer,
Its been much harder to find it, but i can say visteon made clusters have something similar,
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btw.. i'm curious how did they measure teh 40x increase in emissions if the ECU is detecting the dyno ;) did they tow the emission measurement station behind the car ?
and why only VW ? they should have a look at ALL car manufacturers if the pollution is the concern (i'm pretty sure everyone is doing the same because the laws of physic are the same for everyone)... unless they investigate all the car manufacturers (including GM) it looks like a stupid attack aimed at VW.
and furthermore... if the air pollution is the real concern - then the US government should rather focus on local industries - use electric traction on railways instead of diesel, steer away from coal based electricity...etc...
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I have a theory too that manufacturers will only ever just meet the expectations set by the government. Why bother to exceed them? That will only make it harder when you have to hit your next milestone set by the government.
If you could make your cars 50% more efficient, would you do it now, or do it over the course of the next 5 to 10 required improvement cycles?
Now really, that's a tinfoil hat theory. If it was easily possible to fulfill all regulations and customer expectations, there wouldn't be the need for trickery.
And how should this holding back of innovations work with all the competition between suppliers on the on hand and manufacturers on the other?
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btw.. i'm curious how did they measure teh 40x increase in emissions if the ECU is detecting the dyno ;) did they tow the emission measurement station behind the car ?
and why only VW ? they should have a look at ALL car manufacturers if the pollution is the concern (i'm pretty sure everyone is doing the same because the laws of physic are the same for everyone)... unless they investigate all the car manufacturers (including GM) it looks like a stupid attack aimed at VW.
I guess it's the question how the dyno detection is implemented. There were known silly approaches like checking the hood switch in the past (because the test was known to be executed with open hood). Also using the wheel speed sensors or the driver detection is an option.
You would assume though that in the meantime, there are more clever methods that are not so easily identified as cheating. Like using specific calibration for certain load situations.
As I said: the problem is that most probably everybody is cheating but obviously the methods differ, so if you change the testing setup just a bit, some approaches will fail and others won't.
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The Lotus Carlton (UK super car) had this sort of fakery in it’s firmware over 25 years ago. A timer which gave you full turbo boost after the car has been first switched on / stationary for a while (can’t remember the specifics). Basically it allowed for headline 0-60 times and magazine testing but it meant the owners couldn’t match those figures in the real world (which would probably have broken the car!). So to get full power out of a bend you had to lock the rear wheels (speed sensor) and cycle the ignition and you were good to go…..that was before the ECU was hacked of course!
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Apples and oranges. Your examples are against the interest of the car buyer. VW here provides better performance.
VAG are are providing lower MPG and higher pollutants at that performance level than they are advertising. They're conning their customers and making the rest of us pay with our health. You're basically arguing that tobacco companies should of been able to carry on covering up the known risks of smoking because smokers liked to smoke wherever they wanted to and liked to believe it did them no harm.
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If VW are doing it then all manufacturers are doing it. So either the US will have to revise the law or recall all vehicles from all manufacturers and make them compliant all the time. Will basically mean no more new vehicles sold in California, though there will be a lot of out of state vehicles there though.
Just like here in SA, where there are some restrictions against import of used vehicles, they have to be made compliant with SA standards. So, simple solution is to transship them through on a car carrier, or stacked 4 up in a container, to a neighbouring country, then register them where it is lax, and drive them back here. Only thing you have to do is drive through the border once every few weeks, get the paperers stamped and drive back. no worry about fines, unless you have accumulated enough that customs puts the vehicle on a list, and even that is easy to overcome with the appropriate provision of something for "thirst".
Why else would you have a showroom, glass windows and salespeople on the floor, when you cannot drive the vehicle off the pavement legally.
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and making the rest of us pay with our health.
and you can say we're paying with our health for the coal produced electricity - those coal power plants are producing orders of magnitude more NOx per burnt fuel compared to cars. (and let's not forget about Sulfur - no-one is removing sulfur from coal ! they burn the coal as it is !)
and let's not forget - any new regulation is useless as long as old cars (and mainly old trucks) are still on roads.
"paying with our health" in this case (VW cheating) is a propaganda BS.... unless all industries are clean and there are no more old truck on the roads... sorry but that's the reality.
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and making the rest of us pay with our health.
and you can say we're paying with our health for the coal produced electricity - those coal power plants are producing orders of magnitude more NOx per burnt fuel compared to cars.
Yup. But to a much lower degree due to the locations and extra filtration coal, gas, oil, and even trash burning power stations need. Well unless you're in some total backwater that makes even the UK look modern :/ And definitely less per watt than a car without even taking those into account just due to the greater efficiencies. The average person only uses 3kw/h of electricity a day anyhows, how far would that get you in car?
"paying with our health" in this case (VW cheating) is a propaganda BS.... unless all industries are clean and there are no more old truck on the roads... sorry but that's the reality.
So if you're not fixing everything all at once it's best to do nothing? Don't try and minimise the risk just allow a free for all because we can't make it perfect? Why are you even bothering breathing then? You'll never fix any problem with one big stroke so given your logic you might as well just give up and die...
The reality is you can't make new laws apply to old vehicles, but new vehicles can be safer, cleaner, more efficient etc. In exactly the same way some classic consoles or computers had much more shielding added part way through their lifespan to comply with new regulations. You can't reasonably ban the old ones (and in some countries such retroactive legislation is not just difficult and politically risky but straight up illegal) but can make sure new ones are compliant. And in the long run the older ones will be replaced or only about in very small numbers due to enthusiasts keeping them going.
I've also not seen a commercial vehicle on the road older than 7 years old ever, and only rarely anything older than 5, so the truck argument is load of BS propaganda as you put it.
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Apples and oranges. Your examples are against the interest of the car buyer. VW here provides better performance.
VAG are are providing lower MPG and higher pollutants at that performance level than they're are advertising. They're conning their customers and making the rest of us pay with our health. You're basically arguing that tobacco companies should of been able to carry on covering up the known risks of smoking because smokers liked to smoke wherever they wanted to and liked to believe it did them no harm.
^^Quite agree.
If all the car companies are doing this (and that remains to be proved), then it will be quite a headache for the prosecuting authorities. However this doesn't mean they should be allowed to get away with it.
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Because the old UK vehicles get exported to other countries. Here there are a lot of HGV trucks that are 30 or 40 years old, and still running. We have hundreds of Leyland buses in daily use, though commercial vehicles over a certain mass, and those used to transport passengers for gain, have to have annual roadworthiness done. Been quite a few cases where a vehicle fails at one centre then passes at another 400km way within an hour.
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Because the old UK vehicles get exported to other countries. Here there are a lot of HGV trucks that are 30 or 40 years old, and still running. We have hundreds of Leyland buses in daily use, though commercial vehicles over a certain mass, and those used to transport passengers for gain, have to have annual roadworthiness done. Been quite a few cases where a vehicle fails at one centre then passes at another 400km way within an hour.
Well you do drive quite fast over there...
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Not as fast as in Russia. Really good channel on YT Gazzliner........
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and making the rest of us pay with our health.
and you can say we're paying with our health for the coal produced electricity - those coal power plants are producing orders of magnitude more NOx per burnt fuel compared to cars.
Yup. But to a much lower degree due to the locations and extra filtration coal, gas, oil, and even trash burning power stations need.
And you really think that with filters those power stations are cleaner than a modern car? Owners of power plants have their emissions on (not at but on) the limit!
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And you really think that with filters those power stations are cleaner than a modern car? Owners of power plants have their emissions on (not at but on) the limit!
As I've already said per watt of energy produced yes. Especially in this case. They may be working AT* the limit at some plants, but they aren't 4000% higher than the limits when actually used. Which is the case with the VAG vehicles in question and as others have said probably every other car manufacturer does the same..
*And I very much doubt they all are as selling how clean the sources are is a big thing for electricity companies here.
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Still older power plants are likely to have to adhere to less strict standards. I once tried to put some numbers to comparing emissions between power plants and cars but that is hard because even though the stuff they emit is the same the way the amount of emissionsis measured is totally different.
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Just to throw one on the conspiracy pile..
Gas gauges!
/me ducks and runs
Tim
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I think that all manufacturers use these kind of tricks. Especially here in Europe and more specifically here in the Netherlands there are a couple of ridiculous tax rules in effect which basically can make or break the sales numbers of a car.
The fuel consumption numbers in the advertisements are completely unrealistic but they can cause one car to be a top seller and another to be a commercial flop.
If they start digging deeper in the US they will absolutely find more manufacturers that employed the same tactics....
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VAG are are providing lower MPG and higher pollutants at that performance level than they are advertising. They're conning their customers and making the rest of us pay with our health. You're basically arguing that tobacco companies should of been able to carry on covering up the known risks of smoking because smokers liked to smoke wherever they wanted to and liked to believe it did them no harm.
You have the burden of proof that...
1) People that use higher emission cars have significant health issues compared to their neighbors.
2) VW cars have significantly lower MPG than similar car with similar advertised numbers.
http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm (http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm)
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Diesels simply should not be in small cars especially those in towns, they are no good for stop start traffic and short journeys, petrol would be cheaper both on fuel and maintenance. And the way some people drive, foot flat on the fuel then flat on the brake then repeat will make it impossible to get the emissions within the legal requirements on any vehicle other than an electric one.
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Wow that is bad, I hope they send them to jail for fraud.
The only people that go to jail are the peons.
In this country corporations are legally defined as persons, but you never see any of them actually pay a fair fine or their board of directors go to jail for the crimes they commit.
As to the story...
I got a big laugh out of this, people here in Kalifornia have been doing all kinds of things to make their vehicle emissions look low around registration / smog check time.
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...Speedometers already cheat. Usually they show about 8% less. Interestingly the speed you can read from the ECU is more accurate so the -8% is deliberate!...
WTF??? I have 4 different vehicles: 1995 Chevy Camaro, 1997 Pontiac Trans Am, 2002 Corvette Z06, and a 2005 Chevy Avalanche. I have GPS in all of them and the speedometers all agree within 2 MPH. The Corvette has a HUD that gets its speed info from the ECU - 1 MPH difference from the speedometer. Every roadside speed annunciator has been within 2 MPH also. I have no idea where you came up with they usually show an 8% inaccuracy :palm:.
I find it also interesting how strongly this is being defended by the Germans. I'm not sure about the EU, but here in the US the "Everybody else does it" argument doesn't hold up with most children's parents, let alone a court of law. If other manufacturers have ECU code in place to intentionally defraud emissions standards they should be harshly punished as well.
Also, the protectionism argument doesn't make any sense. Why would the US try to kill off VW sales when their sales are relatively small in the US compared to Toyoda :-//???
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They're just trying to keep up with US automotive enthusiast trends... ^-^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AyJBX1HFr0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AyJBX1HFr0)
Nothing new here.
Those cars and trucks have been rolling north from Mexico for decades.
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Just to throw one on the conspiracy pile..
Gas gauges!
What's wrong with them? Too much EMF emission?
http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/2943fa.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/2943fa.pdf)
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Diesels simply should not be in small cars especially those in towns, they are no good for stop start traffic and short journeys, petrol would be cheaper both on fuel and maintenance. And the way some people drive, foot flat on the fuel then flat on the brake then repeat will make it impossible to get the emissions within the legal requirements on any vehicle other than an electric one.
Well that depends on the situation and the market you are in.
Here in the Netherlands most diesels are used in cars which drive more than 30.000km each year.
Diesel is around €0,30 per liter cheaper than petrol but the roadtax is double that of a petrol car so you have to drive a lot to gain a financial advantage.
I drive a Ford Focus 1.6 diesel for work and I drive around 55.000km each year so a diesel is cheaper to run this way.
I agree with you that for a car that mainly drives in the city a diesel is the wrong engine because of clogging soot filters.
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I'm not quite sure a diesel is a good choice nowadays; especially a second hand one. The EU is planning to ban diesels so expect taxes to go up and less city centres where you will be allowed in. Besides that modern diesels are prone to costly repairs. After having driven around in various diesels for over 15 years I bought a petrol car in order to keep tax and maintenance costs predictable.
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I'm not quite sure a diesel is a good choice nowadays; especially a second hand one. The EU is planning to ban diesels so expect taxes to go up and less city centres where you will be allowed in. Besides that modern diesels are prone to costly repairs. After having driven around in various diesels for over 15 years I bought a petrol car in order to keep tax and maintenance costs predictable.
Looks like your government skewed the market to manipulate you out of using diesel.
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Looks like your government skewed the market to manipulate you out of using diesel.
Yes. They socially engineered us away from petrol onto diesel. I remember when diesel cost 50% of what petrol did, now they are on par. Diesels are being taxed out of existence directly or by ever more draconian emissions standards. Since that is where the biggest income for the chancellor's coffers are... New car taxes, etc. I dread to think what scrapping cars every 5 years does to the environment.
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I'm not quite sure a diesel is a good choice nowadays; especially a second hand one. The EU is planning to ban diesels so expect taxes to go up and less city centres where you will be allowed in. Besides that modern diesels are prone to costly repairs. After having driven around in various diesels for over 15 years I bought a petrol car in order to keep tax and maintenance costs predictable.
Looks like your government skewed the market to manipulate you out of using diesel.
I don't think you can put it that blunt. A diesel engine is not easely tricked into running very clean so there is a valid point into regulating diesels to become cleaner or ban them. Even though the CO2 emissions from a diesel are much lower compared to a petrol car the NOx and sulfur emissions are also causing problems. I strongly recall the term 'acid rain' hitting the headlines in the 80's.
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I'm not quite sure a diesel is a good choice nowadays; especially a second hand one. The EU is planning to ban diesels so expect taxes to go up and less city centres where you will be allowed in. Besides that modern diesels are prone to costly repairs. After having driven around in various diesels for over 15 years I bought a petrol car in order to keep tax and maintenance costs predictable.
Looks like your government skewed the market to manipulate you out of using diesel.
I don't think you can put it that blunt. A diesel engine is not easely tricked into running very clean so there is a valid point into regulating diesels to become cleaner or ban them. Even though the CO2 emissions from a diesel are much lower compared to a petrol car the NOx and sulfur emissions are also causing problems. I strongly recall the term 'acid rain' hitting the headlines in the 80's.
For the NOx emissions they have very efficient DeNOx catalytic converters which use urea to convert most of it to nitrogen.
De biggest problem are the fine particles but in that category modern petrol engines are even worse, direct injection petrol engines (i.e. just about all modern petrol engines) have really high fine particle emissions and in contrast to a diesel engine there are no filters mounted.
For our own car which my wife uses for work we switched to a petrol engine when we moved to a different city and she only has 50km to drive each day so a diesel would be to expensive any way. It is an old fashioned atmospheric petrol engine (Toyota 1.6 Valvematic).
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I don't think you can put it that blunt. A diesel engine is not easely tricked into running very clean so there is a valid point into regulating diesels to become cleaner or ban them.
There is also a point to ban cars all together. They kill thousands of children every year. ;-)
Oppression always comes with a 'justification', don't fall for it.
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I don't think you can put it that blunt. A diesel engine is not easely tricked into running very clean so there is a valid point into regulating diesels to become cleaner or ban them.
There is also a point to ban cars all together. They kill thousands of children every year. ;-)
Apples and oranges. There is a choice between 2 technologies to make the same product but one technology needs to be stretched beyond the (economic) limits where the other does not. Nobody is taking cars away.
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I don't think you can put it that blunt. A diesel engine is not easely tricked into running very clean so there is a valid point into regulating diesels to become cleaner or ban them.
There is also a point to ban cars all together. They kill thousands of children every year. ;-)
Apples and oranges. There is a choice between 2 technologies to make the same product but one technology needs to be stretched beyond the (economic) limits where the other does not. Nobody is taking cars away.
When your government skew the market its not economic anymore, it's politics and control.
Taxing was a significant part of your decision to drop diesel (I an reading your post).
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I don't find it surprising that automakers optimize to the tests. What choice do they have? People here have complained about complying with the letter of the law, but not the intent. But that is just what these driving cycles were intended to define, the intent. Otherwise manufacturers could honestly say "We have optimized our emissions for gentle driving with a emphasis on operation at XXX RPM. Our rational customers, sharing our concern for the environment, will drive them as closely as possible to that condition." Stack the mismatch between legislative driving cycles and reality to some combination of varying conditions around each political unit, competing objectives and simple bureaucratic inefficiency.
A better approach given todays technology would be to have the ECU record stoichiometry (or other parameters deemed relevant), and write laws limiting total deviation from optimum. Independent of driving cycle. Some thought would need to be given to how to record the data to make storage requirements minimal, but some combination of means, peaks, std deviation, summed square error or similar should do the trick. Most places do periodic checks of the emission systems where the data could be downloaded, and any discrepancy in the modal results used to penalize the manufacturers. Use of the modal results would protect the manufacturers from illicit modifications by performance addicts, leadfoot drivers and so on.
I don't know if things are different in the US from other places, but I have found my speedometers on several vehicles to be surprisingly accurate. Within about 2% at highway speeds. What is surprising to me since they are electronically driven based on shaft rotation sensors is that they are not linear. I happen to own multiple copies of one model vehicle and while the highway speed reading on all three is accurate, they have significantly larger errors at other speeds. The sign of the error at each speed doesn't track between the vehicles. Reference for all of these measurements is GPS and timed transits over a measured distance.
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Anyway. Vincent, how can you not know that car speedos are calibrated to give a lower reading?
Up until July 2006 the Australian Design Rules required new cars to have speedos that are accurate to within 10% of actual speed. The current Rules disallow under-reading, and permit over-reading by up to 4kmh + 10%.
Interestingly, ODOMETER accuracy is specified to be +/- 4%.
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What is surprising to me since they are electronically driven based on shaft rotation sensors is that they are not linear. I happen to own multiple copies of one model vehicle and while the highway speed reading on all three is accurate, they have significantly larger errors at other speeds. The sign of the error at each speed doesn't track between the vehicles. Reference for all of these measurements is GPS and timed transits over a measured distance.
Are these using frequency to voltage circuits or are the speedometers microcontroller driven? Another source of error could be non-linearity in the current/versus needle position but that is usually corrected by stretching/compacting the scale a little bit.
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it kind of makes me wonder. it is 2015. we have more computing power in a car than the apollo moonlander, including the command module and saturn 5 AND the groundstation.
And we can't get a speed gauge to be within 1km/h ? we should all give up , dress in leopard or bearskins , go "oegha" and live in caves .
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Another source of error could be non-linearity in the current/versus needle position but that is usually corrected by stretching/compacting the scale a little bit.
dashboard electronics have long switched to stepper motor drivers for the needles ... if you have a car where , at powerup, the needles go to the endstop and return : those are stepper driven. the control chip looks for the endstop by looking at the coil current to detect a stall of the motor.
In 1995 i already worked on an asic for Valeo that drove 4 such indicators, the lcd display and a bunch of led's for various annunciators on dashboard. old technology. So the gauge should be accurate. The asic also had the clock in it ( time/date) and had eeprom switchable capacitor banks to trim the time to within 5 second per year deviation. (more than that is difficult as the crystal itself drifts with temperature )
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And we can't get a speed gauge to be within 1km/h ? we should all give up , dress in leopard or bearskins , go "oegha" and live in caves .
As previously pointed out by someone on this thread: the regulations prevent the manufacturers reading below the actual speed (-0%, +X%).
The problem then becomes making allowances for the changes in tire diameter due to wear/inflation pressure/temperature/manufacturing tolerances.
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Another source of error could be non-linearity in the current/versus needle position but that is usually corrected by stretching/compacting the scale a little bit.
dashboard electronics have long switched to stepper motor drivers for the needles ... if you have a car where , at powerup, the needles go to the endstop and return : those are stepper driven.
My car doesn't do that. It also sounds cumbersome to use stepper motors where a simple coil & magnet seem much more reliable and easier to drive.
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You have the burden of proof that...
1) People that use higher emission cars have significant health issues compared to their neighbors.
No, that people exposed to their emissions have significant health issues compared to those who are not exposed. Actually. Prove that for smoking. There is at least a correlation with diesel emissions.
2) VW cars have significantly lower MPG than similar car with similar advertised numbers.
No, just that the MPG is lower than VAG advertised. Full stop.
http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm (http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/falsean.htm)
I fail to see how that applies. You twisting what I say to fit your biases doesn't mean that is what was actually said.
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I'm not quite sure a diesel is a good choice nowadays; especially a second hand one. The EU is planning to ban diesels so expect taxes to go up and less city centres where you will be allowed in. Besides that modern diesels are prone to costly repairs. After having driven around in various diesels for over 15 years I bought a petrol car in order to keep tax and maintenance costs predictable.
Looks like your government skewed the market to manipulate you out of using diesel.
I don't think you can put it that blunt. A diesel engine is not easely tricked into running very clean so there is a valid point into regulating diesels to become cleaner or ban them. Even though the CO2 emissions from a diesel are much lower compared to a petrol car the NOx and sulfur emissions are also causing problems. I strongly recall the term 'acid rain' hitting the headlines in the 80's.
For the NOx emissions they have very efficient DeNOx catalytic converters which use urea to convert most of it to nitrogen.
De biggest problem are the fine particles but in that category modern petrol engines are even worse, direct injection petrol engines (i.e. just about all modern petrol engines) have really high fine particle emissions and in contrast to a diesel engine there are no filters mounted.
For our own car which my wife uses for work we switched to a petrol engine when we moved to a different city and she only has 50km to drive each day so a diesel would be to expensive any way. It is an old fashioned atmospheric petrol engine (Toyota 1.6 Valvematic).
NOx limits have been tighter on Petrol engines under the "euro X" emissions standards, but the PM limit is only going to be applied to direct injection Petrol engines (which many of the next generation engines will be). The other big point is that the IARC (International Agency for Research on Cancer) lists diesel exhaust as a known carcinogen, while petrol and its exhaust is listed as a possible carcinogen (they class diesel fuel as having inadequate evidence of any cancer risk), but that only looks at it from a cancer perspective while ignoring other health issues that combustion products can cause.
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And we can't get a speed gauge to be within 1km/h ? we should all give up , dress in leopard or bearskins , go "oegha" and live in caves .
As previously pointed out by someone on this thread: the regulations prevent the manufacturers reading below the actual speed (-0%, +X%).
The problem then becomes making allowances for the changes in tire diameter due to wear/inflation pressure/temperature/manufacturing tolerances.
I'm with electron. This seems like a solvable problem for the required accuracy. If the end user has someone change tie sizes, why would they not recal the spedo? Make that a requirement.
If these cars have gps as part of the telematics and internet connectivity, why can't some math and smarts be applied to cal the spedo against the gps when the car is known to be on the highway and its speed has been constant for xx minutes? If speeds between them have been correlated & been @ constant speed for some time?
Measure car height above ground maybe?
It only needs a cal what once a month, months, year??
My 2014 toyota is ~4mph high, chevy s10 is >5mph mph @ 70mph. I know what is the acceptable before I'm likely to get stopped. Getting closer to maximum speed saves my life as I see it. Having to calibrate my foot for each damn vehicle is a PITA and there should be no need for it.
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They could compare it to GPS on an ongoing basis and it would soon show it the tyre diameter had changed.
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I'm with electron. This seems like a solvable problem for the required accuracy. If the end user has someone change tie sizes, why would they not recal the spedo? Make that a requirement.
Because then your local tyre place will need to have a calibrated rolling road, and they'll need to get it periodically checked and re-calibrated and who is going to pay for that? Then you get pulled for speeding and take it to court and there is a whole chain of calibration you'll need to prove to point fingers. It just gets messy, arbitrary and subject to a whole load of pain nobody is interested in.
Additionally, it's obvious from your comments that you've never tried to accurately calibrate a car speedo. Tyre diameters are never constant, and rolling diameter only bears a passing resemblance to the actual un-laden diameter. It changes with pressure, which changes with temperature. It changes with load, which changes with the number of passengers, and how much McDonalds you ate last night. It changes constantly as the tyre wears.
The concept of -0/+4 is calibrated such that even if you wear your manufacturer specified tyres down to the belts it never under reads, so you can never stand up in court and argue your speedo said 60 while you were doing 62. It means that with properly inflated and brand new tyres your speedo will over-read *always*.
The electronics is easy. The physics is a shitload harder because rubber is flexible.
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Because then your local tyre place will need to have a calibrated rolling road, and they'll need to get it periodically checked and re-calibrated and who is going to pay for that?
The tire joint if they choose to put tires on that don't meet the manufactures specification. At min they could at least make the adjustment knowing the size difference and assume the OEM cal is still good.
If I rip out the spedo and put in aftermarket is that still the car's OEM problem to guarantee the accuracy?? What if I replace the transmission with aftermarket? What if I lift the suspension 8" and put monster truck ties on it?
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I highly doubt VW is the only guilty company here. I bet if people start looking they will find little software "tricks" all over the place.
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Additionally, it's obvious from your comments that you've never tried to accurately calibrate a car speedo. Tyre diameters are never constant, and rolling diameter only bears a passing resemblance to the actual un-laden diameter. It changes with pressure, which changes with temperature. It changes with load, which changes with the number of passengers, and how much McDonalds you ate last night. It changes constantly as the tyre wears.
Your right, never calibrated it, never even thought of the exact math, tire proprieties, ect involved either.
I do note my gps and spedo over about 50k miles a year, and I get stopped often enough that I know the gps is far more accurate at constant speeds. The car is always high, its in nearly every car I drive, including rentals. The damn gps is always closer assuming its within it limits. I set my cruse control to gps and when stopped its dead on. So your telling me its not possible to come up with a algorithm that cals the spedo once a month when conditions are perfect and keep it more accurate than what today's cars? I seem to do this with my eyes, brain and gps.
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btw.. i'm curious how did they measure teh 40x increase in emissions if the ECU is detecting the dyno ;) did they tow the emission measurement station behind the car ?
and why only VW ? they should have a look at ALL car manufacturers if the pollution is the concern (i'm pretty sure everyone is doing the same because the laws of physic are the same for everyone)... unless they investigate all the car manufacturers (including GM) it looks like a stupid attack aimed at VW.
I guess it's the question how the dyno detection is implemented. There were known silly approaches like checking the hood switch in the past (because the test was known to be executed with open hood). Also using the wheel speed sensors or the driver detection is an option.
You would assume though that in the meantime, there are more clever methods that are not so easily identified as cheating. Like using specific calibration for certain load situations.
As I said: the problem is that most probably everybody is cheating but obviously the methods differ, so if you change the testing setup just a bit, some approaches will fail and others won't.
As someone who owns a 2011 Jetta Sportwagon TDI and have annually gotten the required emission inspection it would actually be painfully simple to detect a inspection. The car gets set on a dyno with it's front drive tires and the back stationary behind blocks. The tech inserts a probe about 10 inches into the tail pipe. The tech gets the dyno up to a certain test speed (I want to say it was 45MPH) for 10 seconds or so and the computer samples the air in that speed window. They never look under the hood or connect anything up to the computer. A routine to detect the back wheels stationary and the front wheels getting up to a certain speed would almost be trivial to program.
I am a little curious to exactly advantage the software trick offered. A few friends that know a whole lot about TDI engines seems to think the hack job isn't for additional performance, but to dramatically slow down the wear and tear on the expensive and difficult to work-on emissions systems. Because the emissions system is required by law to have a super-long factory warranty, this hack could save VW lots of money on repairs they would have to cover. However, it looks like it's now going to cost them WAY MORE...
-EM
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I'm with electron. This seems like a solvable problem for the required accuracy. If the end user has someone change tie sizes, why would they not recal the spedo? Make that a requirement.
Because then your local tyre place will need to have a calibrated rolling road, and they'll need to get it periodically checked and re-calibrated
Ofcourse not. Just set the tire size into the ECU and it can do the math itself.
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Ofcourse not. Just set the tire size into the ECU and it can do the math itself.
Have you seen some of the grunts that work in tyre fitters? I don't trust them to torque the wheel nuts correctly, never mind let them near my ECU. (I can hardly trust myself when playing with my own ECUs with a Renault CAN CLiP or Ford VCM)
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What would be the purpose of it to be super accurate anyway? People use it to avoid getting ticketed to much, to get a rough idea if they're more or less within speed limit and that's it. They're not supposed to stare at it all the time, they better watch the traffic around them... :popcorn:
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Ofcourse not. Just set the tire size into the ECU and it can do the math itself.
Having completely ignored the whole discussion on wear/pressure/load/flexibility.. awesome.
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My car doesn't do that. It also sounds cumbersome to use stepper motors where a simple coil & magnet seem much more reliable and easier to drive.
Practically all mechanical speedometers from mostly all suppliers nowadays (about the turn of the century) use stepper motors.
These are exact, compared to 1..3% error, which come with moving-coil instruments.
Stepper motors are also much more reliable, easier to interface, and also cheaper, meanwhile.
Everything is controlled by special embedded controllers, and mostly all signals are digitally provided via CAN bus.
Therefore, all information on the cluster instrument are "exact".
Only variances in the tyres diameter (production, wear-off, pressure, deformation of the tyres shape during different driving situation) give rise to errors for the speed measurement.
The 0.. (+10% + 4km/h) error is a European law for the complete system, which limits the above mentioned error sources.
The whole system may perform better than that, but the actual deviation is defined by each car maker.
Frank
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I'm with electron. This seems like a solvable problem for the required accuracy. If the end user has someone change tie sizes, why would they not recal the spedo? Make that a requirement.
Because then your local tyre place will need to have a calibrated rolling road, and they'll need to get it periodically checked and re-calibrated
Ofcourse not. Just set the tire size into the ECU and it can do the math itself.
Let the speedometer compare itself to the GPS that is always inside these days, and make a low-gain averaged correction.
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it kind of makes me wonder. it is 2015. we have more computing power in a car than the apollo moonlander, including the command module and saturn 5 AND the groundstation.
And we can't get a speed gauge to be within 1km/h ? we should all give up , dress in leopard or bearskins , go "oegha" and live in caves .
We this, we that.
It looks like THEY don't do it, and there are reasons for THEM to do so.
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Let the speedometer compare itself to the GPS that is always inside these days, and make a low-gain averaged correction.
Yes, yes.. we all know *how* to do it. Do you think perhaps there's a reason they *don't* do it? Like.. oh say nobody actually cares that much?
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Let the speedometer compare itself to the GPS that is always inside these days, and make a low-gain averaged correction.
Yes, yes.. we all know *how* to do it. Do you think perhaps there's a reason they *don't* do it? Like.. oh say nobody actually cares that much?
We can only say we don't know why they do/don't, or make an assumption that fits our personal agenda.
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btw.. i'm curious how did they measure teh 40x increase in emissions if the ECU is detecting the dyno ;) did they tow the emission measurement station behind the car ?
and why only VW ? they should have a look at ALL car manufacturers if the pollution is the concern (i'm pretty sure everyone is doing the same because the laws of physic are the same for everyone)... unless they investigate all the car manufacturers (including GM) it looks like a stupid attack aimed at VW.
I guess it's the question how the dyno detection is implemented. There were known silly approaches like checking the hood switch in the past (because the test was known to be executed with open hood). Also using the wheel speed sensors or the driver detection is an option.
You would assume though that in the meantime, there are more clever methods that are not so easily identified as cheating. Like using specific calibration for certain load situations.
As I said: the problem is that most probably everybody is cheating but obviously the methods differ, so if you change the testing setup just a bit, some approaches will fail and others won't.
expensive and difficult to work-on emissions systems.
i'm curious what makes em expensive and difficult to work on. that electronics board doesn't cost 50$ in parts and labor to assemble. the sensors are 25$ tops.
a failure of engineering if , after 25 years, they have not gotten the price down.
Or are we talking 'artificially kept expensive' so we can lobby to NOT have them installed and 'difficult to work on' because your average grease monkey can't tell the difference between a red and a blue wire ? then it is time to educate ...
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So, we have a poorly written EPA document, which says nothing new, which spread a bad mood among the customers, causing inestimable damage to VW.
Wait a minute...
Can someone of you imagine who is the head behind this theatrical action? Come on, it's not difficult.
Hint: who is interested in aggressively penetrate the US market with small vehicles?
Hint #2: who was recently under the loupe for another automotive scandal?
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btw.. i'm curious how did they measure teh 40x increase in emissions if the ECU is detecting the dyno ;) did they tow the emission measurement station behind the car ?
and why only VW ? they should have a look at ALL car manufacturers if the pollution is the concern (i'm pretty sure everyone is doing the same because the laws of physic are the same for everyone)... unless they investigate all the car manufacturers (including GM) it looks like a stupid attack aimed at VW.
I guess it's the question how the dyno detection is implemented. There were known silly approaches like checking the hood switch in the past (because the test was known to be executed with open hood). Also using the wheel speed sensors or the driver detection is an option.
You would assume though that in the meantime, there are more clever methods that are not so easily identified as cheating. Like using specific calibration for certain load situations.
As I said: the problem is that most probably everybody is cheating but obviously the methods differ, so if you change the testing setup just a bit, some approaches will fail and others won't.
expensive and difficult to work-on emissions systems.
i'm curious what makes em expensive and difficult to work on. that electronics board doesn't cost 50$ in parts and labor to assemble. the sensors are 25$ tops.
a failure of engineering if , after 25 years, they have not gotten the price down.
Or are we talking 'artificially kept expensive' so we can lobby to NOT have them installed and 'difficult to work on' because your average grease monkey can't tell the difference between a red and a blue wire ? then it is time to educate ...
Well if we're talking about the main vehicle ecu, they are most likely made by Delphi, Siemens, TRW, Continental/VDO. I'm not sure exactly how much they even let the vehicle manufacturer access inside it, but I believe they may use a modular system, much like Award did with their BIOS chips. So then the manufacturer gets their production order from the dealer and it says "2.5L engine, turbo, 205/60/R15 tires" and then the back-end system probably just concatenates those pieces of code into a single firmware blob. When the vehicle rolls down the assembly line they scan the VIN and plug into the car and load the ECU image.
Most likely there's some kind of end to end encryption taking place in order to keep the device hard to modify.
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So, we have a poorly written EPA document, which says nothing new, which spread a bad mood among the customers, causing inestimable damage to VW.
Wait a minute...
Can someone of you imagine who is the head behind this theatrical action? Come on, it's not difficult.
Hint: who is interested in aggressively penetrate the US market with small vehicles?
Hint #2: who was recently under the loupe for another automotive scandal?
Well my thinking is that the actual engineers probably did not knowingly put this system together. It was likely a management decision and they may have had some third partly blindly do the dirty work under an NDA with no knowledge as to what they were doing other than writing some module that determines if the vehicle is stationary or not.
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Well if we're talking about the main vehicle ecu, they are most likely made by Delphi, Siemens, TRW, Continental/VDO.
You forgot by far the biggest manufacturer of them, Bosch.
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OTOH, USA, who needs them?
Volkswagen's recall troubles may have little effect on China, its largest market.
China is Volkswagen’s single-largest market, and the company vies with General Motors as the country’s biggest automaker. But Volkswagen’s diesel scandal is unlikely to have many repercussions in China.
That is because Volkswagen sells almost no diesel cars in China — fewer than 1,000 of the three million or so the company sells each year in the country, where gasoline engines reign.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/international/volkswagens-recall-troubles-may-have-little-effect-on-china-its-largest-market.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/international/volkswagens-recall-troubles-may-have-little-effect-on-china-its-largest-market.html)
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I'm with electron. This seems like a solvable problem for the required accuracy. If the end user has someone change tie sizes, why would they not recal the spedo? Make that a requirement.
Because then your local tyre place will need to have a calibrated rolling road, and they'll need to get it periodically checked and re-calibrated
Ofcourse not. Just set the tire size into the ECU and it can do the math itself.
Where I live, the tire fitters will not fit a tire that isn't on the manufacturers approved size list without getting a signed release from the vehicle owner acknowledging that the speedo will be wrong and the owner is responsible (along with a bunch of other disclaimers about safety and load carrying ability). They don't want to touch the ECU.
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My dad's Mercedes was fitted with winter tires and the dealer programmed a hard speed limit because the tires have a maximum speed.
It is illegal to fit tires with a lower maximum speed than the car is capable of in the Netherlands. So if you have a fast car and want cheap tires, the dealer will configure a speed limit.
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Tyre franchise with MB approval will be able to do that, and if you actually read the MB user manual there is a nice section in there about the speed limit and how to adjust it down and up, just using the vehicle itself and the built in display.
Anybody who wants to do 190kph in winter in a country with snow and ice is mentally challenged for sure.
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Meanwhile VW shares BURN (down by nearly 20% today) and the CEO of VW (Winterkorn) makes a public apology.
And no less than the German Govt. have ordered an inquiry into VW's diesel.
This degree of damage limitation should tell you alot about the scope of the problem at VW - they clearly see a massive liability issue here. Also be interesting to see which other manufacturers come 'clean' about this practice too?
So perhaps we will get to find out just who knew what and who instructed the engineers to design and install the dyno-detection algorithms in the first place???
EDIT: This is quite succinct: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34311819 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34311819)
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Not as bad as the dump truck I drove behind today, white exhaust smoke so dense you could not see 5m in front of you. I was in the lane next to him, and luckily he was pulling over to the side of the road, so I could see to get ahead of him. I think the exhaust coming out of the 2.0l diesel ( also one of those named) was cleaner than the incoming air, though probably the ECU was having a fit at the lack of need to inject fuel into the smog.
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Meanwhile VW shares BURN (down by nearly 20% today) and the CEO of VW (Winterkorn) makes a public apology.
I'm tempted to buy some, would be a really good opportunity to make some cash in the long run :-+
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It is illegal to fit tires with a lower maximum speed than the car is capable of in the Netherlands. So if you have a fast car and want cheap tires, the dealer will configure a speed limit.
We are just required to put a sticker on the dashboard...
(http://fs2.directupload.net/images/150921/2lyrfkvg.jpg)
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It is illegal to fit tires with a lower maximum speed than the car is capable of in the Netherlands. So if you have a fast car and want cheap tires, the dealer will configure a speed limit.
We are just required to put a sticker on the dashboard...
(http://fs2.directupload.net/images/150921/2lyrfkvg.jpg)
Here in Sweden normal winter tires are usually rated max 160... Those M+S are considered normal summer tires here :)
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So perhaps we will get to find out just who knew what and who instructed the engineers to design and install the dyno-detection algorithms in the first place???
I'd like to know who, within the various countries' regulatory agencies, already knew that manufacturers use this method of passing the tests, and exactly what happened to suddenly make it newsworthy.
This method of passing mandatory legal testing is certainly nothing new. I remember reading a review of a motorcycle nearly 20 years ago, which referred to a flat spot in the rev range that could (if the owner were so inclined) be resolved by snipping a wire in the ECU. That flat spot, of course, exactly coincided with the speed at which noise and emissions testing was carried out.
Are we really supposed to believe that not one person within the EPA had ever worked in the automotive industry? Have the EPA really never tested a vehicle outside of the conditions that are specifically prescribed in the legal emissions test? Why not?
If VW's software is that specific, it should be trivially easy to discover just by adjusting the test procedure slightly, and noting the (presumably) dramatically higher emissions. What possible reason could there be NOT to have ever done this?
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Here you often see people driving on the freeway at 120 plus, with the front tyre being that thin space saver spare with the big yellow "Temporary use spare, do not drive over 60kph or over 20km with this tyre fitted" sticker. You see them stopped in a parking, with the tread of that tyre worn down to smooth as well. I have seen some with them on 2 wheels as well, must have had a second flat tyre and borrowed one....
Me, it is getting time to change tyres, the Michelins I fitted a while ago are down to 3mm. Must go look at prices, see which gouging I will take. Not going to buy Dunlop again, even though they did over 100 000km in use with still usable tread life (4mm), but they would not stay balanced so were always relegated to the solid rear axle.
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You forgot by far the biggest manufacturer of them, Bosch.
Nope, not any more!
The three big ones are (2013)
1. Denso
2. Continental Automotive (mainly electronics w/o tyre business)
3. Bosch Automotive
Don't have the latest numbers from 2014 in mind, sorry. But Bosch is definitely not the 'far biggest" any more.
Maybe Conti currently is the biggest one. (by turn overs)
Frank
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Here in Sweden normal winter tires are usually rated max 160... Those M+S are considered normal summer tires here :)
Yeah, winters in Germany aren't usually that hard, even here in the Black Forest at ~750m above sea level. We seldom get more than 4-6 weeks of snow and ice a year. Winter tires aren't even a legal mandatory requirement, you can get away with normal summer tires if you don't need your car on a daily basis and only drive on dry roads. Tires with spikes are banned since the end of the 70s, they're only allowed on bicycles now ;D
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Here you often see people driving on the freeway at 120 plus, with the front tyre being that thin space saver spare with the big yellow "Temporary use spare, do not drive over 60kph or over 20km with this tyre fitted" sticker. You see them stopped in a parking, with the tread of that tyre worn down to smooth as well. I have seen some with them on 2 wheels as well, must have had a second flat tyre and borrowed one....
The cops here love to roll down the roads in their comfy police cruisers and watch for such things, it wouldn't take them to long to get the evil offenders ^-^ . They would have to change the worn down tire on the spot and if they aren't able to and the tire is worn down really badly they were forbidden to use the car until it was changed. Plus they would receive a hefty fine, of course. Oh, and they also look for expired technical inspection badges, retrofitted but not approved LED lights, retrofitted xenon lights, spoilers, rims, "sports" exhausts and approx. 67.543 other forbidden things. The county needs all the money they can get :-DD
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Nope, not any more!
The three big ones are (2013)
1. Denso
2. Continental Automotive (mainly electronics w/o tyre business)
3. Bosch Automotive
Don't have the latest numbers from 2014 in mind, sorry. But Bosch is definitely not the 'far biggest" any more.
Maybe Conti currently is the biggest one. (by turn overs)
Nope. Bosch in still #1. Continental is getting close, but #2 is Canadian Magna:
#1: Bosch
#2: Magna
#3: Continental
#4: Denso
Source (http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/wirtschaftsticker/unternehmen-bosch-weiter-weltgroesster-autozulieferer-conti-nun-auf-platz-drei_id_4811049.html)
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... Tires with spikes are banned since the end of the 70s, they're only allowed on bicycles now ;D
Actually not!
There is an exempt from that law on the road between the ferry dock and the border-shop in Puttgarden on Fehmarn! :popcorn: :)
Where I live I will be able to get around on studd-free tires all winter, flat land and reasonably urban. For ski-trips not that far up north I prefer studded thou.
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Thankfully I'm British and so immune to winter. The only reason people switch to winter tyres over here is to switch back to steel wheels with them so they can keep their expensive shiny low profile tyre alloys nice for summer use.
Everyone else just sticks with the standard all weather tyre the manufacturer provides or what ever ditch-finders are cheapest at Kwik-Fit.
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Thankfully I'm British and so immune to winter. The only reason people switch to winter tyres over here is to switch back to steel wheels with them so they can keep their expensive shiny low profile tyre alloys nice for summer use.
Everyone else just sticks with the standard all weather tyre the manufacturer provides or what ever ditch-finders are cheapest at Kwik-Fit.
Well who's to argue with the Thane of Cawdor and Glamis?
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Not as bad as the dump truck I drove behind today, white exhaust smoke so dense you could not see 5m in front of you. I was in the lane next to him, and luckily he was pulling over to the side of the road, so I could see to get ahead of him. I think the exhaust coming out of the 2.0l diesel ( also one of those named) was cleaner than the incoming air, though probably the ECU was having a fit at the lack of need to inject fuel into the smog.
white smoke means he probably had a blow head gasket. Cleaner than the incoming air is nonsense, filter and cat means there is no CO/HC or particles (except the nano sized ones that probably cause cancer), but it does nothing to the NOx produced by the engine and NOx is what causes smog and acid rain
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Here in Sweden normal winter tires are usually rated max 160... Those M+S are considered normal summer tires here :)
Yeah, winters in Germany aren't usually that hard, even here in the Black Forest at ~750m above sea level. We seldom get more than 4-6 weeks of snow and ice a year. Winter tires aren't even a legal mandatory requirement, you can get away with normal summer tires if you don't need your car on a daily basis and only drive on dry roads.
Actually winter tires perform very poor on wet roads (just look at the label if you think otherwise). They are made for grip on mud, ice and snow; not wet roads! My car had almost brand new winter tires when I bought it but after I got a wheelspin twice when pulling up from a traffic light on a slightly damp road I went to my 'tire guy' and had them replaced with tires with an A rating for performance on wet roads. That worked much better!
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I made a lot of money removing this rubbish software from VAG group ECU's :-DD :-+ :-+
What used to make me laugh is the engines have a rev limiter when stationary, so they could pass the smog test on the MOT when the tester holds the throttle to the floor :-DD
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I noticed that on my dad's Passat. It will only get to 2k5 revs when in neutral or with clutch down. Otherwise, it will go near to the redline. I had wondered what the limit was for, that explains it. What a stupid rule.
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I noticed that on my dad's Passat. It will only get to 2k5 revs when in neutral or with clutch down. Otherwise, it will go near to the redline. I had wondered what the limit was for, that explains it. What a stupid rule.
That may not be the only reason. I have always understood it can be damaging to run an engine too fast while in neutral and unloaded. It would be logical to put a safeguard in to prevent that.
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So, the question is, if you were the firmware guy (or anyone in the chain, testing etc), would you have complied and done this, or refused?
Secretly reported them?
From personal experience:
- complied - keep job
- refused - forced out
- Secretly reported them - early forced retirement
In other words I would still have my job if I had kept my mouth shut.
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I noticed that on my dad's Passat. It will only get to 2k5 revs when in neutral or with clutch down. Otherwise, it will go near to the redline. I had wondered what the limit was for, that explains it. What a stupid rule.
That may not be the only reason. I have always understood it can be damaging to run an engine too fast while in neutral and unloaded. It would be logical to put a safeguard in to prevent that.
I believe it is the high angular acceleration rates that can occur when revving in neutral that put a lot of stress on the timing belt/chain - when the smoke test was introduced to the UK MOT test, the tester was supposed to warn the owner that there was a danger of wrecking the engine if the timing belt wasn't in good condition or was past its replacement interval. I don't recall ever being warned myself though.
This could be an explanation (or plausible excuse) as to why the revs are limited in neutral.
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I believe it is the high angular acceleration rates that can occur when revving in neutral that put a lot of stress on the timing belt/chain - when the smoke test was introduced to the UK MOT test, the tester was supposed to warn the owner that there was a danger of wrecking the engine if the timing belt wasn't in good condition or was past its replacement interval. I don't recall ever being warned myself though.
This could be an explanation (or plausible excuse) as to why the revs are limited in neutral.
Besides which in the real world only utter fucking wankers rev the engine to redline in neutral. So the limit is actually to stop dickheads fucking up their (or more likely their hire cars) engines. But of course its really to cheat USA EPA tests... :palm:
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A lot of people in this thread seem to think this was no big deal but the company's stock tanked today! VW lost 15 billion dollars in market cap.
I'd say investors (and because of investors, the company) think it's a pretty big deal. All of the company executives will lose their bonuses because of this and the CEO is pretty much guaranteed to lose his job. This is likely to cause a major shake-up at the company.
You might think it wasn't a big deal but you can bet VW's management shit a collective brick today.
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Its possible that senior management didn't know (or want to know) exactly what was going on as long as their ambitions in the US market were being met. Its not uncommon for middle managemnt to be put under such intense pressure to meet targets that they may feel forced to resort to cheating to keep their jobs and bonuses. Then the law of unintended consequences kicks in.
This sort of thing can be seen in hospitals and teaching where unreasonable targets cause results to be fiddled, pupils' course work to be 'improved' and patients left in ambulances because the 'time to be treated' target doesn't start until they are admitted into accident and emergency.
Senior management/government then bleat that they didn't know about or authorise the bad behaviour and didn't intend any of the terrible consequences and put all the blame on those who they imposed the impossible goals.
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A lot of people in this thread seem to think this was no big deal but the company's stock tanked today! VW lost 15 billion dollars in market cap.
Stock tanking says nothing (as usual). The US market isn't really big for VW.
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A lot of people in this thread seem to think this was no big deal but the company's stock tanked today! VW lost 15 billion dollars in market cap.
Stock tanking says nothing (as usual). The US market isn't really big for VW.
The stock tanking means nothing to you or me but the stock price is everything in a publicly traded company. The looming costs and uncertainty will likely keep the stock price depressed for a year or more.
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A lot of people in this thread seem to think this was no big deal but the company's stock tanked today! VW lost 15 billion dollars in market cap...
What a great opportunity to buy.
In max. 6 months those numbers will be like before, because investors will know by then that every other manufacturer is into it in the same way.
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A lot of people in this thread seem to think this was no big deal but the company's stock tanked today! VW lost 15 billion dollars in market cap...
What a great opportunity to buy.
In max. 6 months those numbers will be like before, because investors will know by then that every other manufacturer is into it in the same way.
It could be. It does seem like the market overreacted.
Personally, I'm going to sit back and watch from the sidelines. It will be interesting to see how they handle this.
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A lot of people in this thread seem to think this was no big deal but the company's stock tanked today! VW lost 15 billion dollars in market cap...
What a great opportunity to buy.
In max. 6 months those numbers will be like before, because investors will know by then that every other manufacturer is into it in the same way.
Somehow you assume that you can value the stocks more accurately than the rest of the market. Do you have any relative advantage that supports it?
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The 'contagion' appears be spreading, and now 'Asia' are apparently starting an investigation into VW and the US/EPA are spreading their net by looking at ALL diesel cars.
As horrific as the consequences are to human health, VW's share price, etc... I'm still mainly interested in the question of VW's firmware engineers:
1. Did they understand the implications of what they were doing?
2. Did they think this was wrong?
3. When they raised those issues (assuming they did) how did their line managers react? What is the whistle blowing culture like at VW/Bosch (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/oct/24/dyson-accuses-bosch-paying-research-spy (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/oct/24/dyson-accuses-bosch-paying-research-spy))?
4. How high up was this decision made?
5. Is it possible to have a diesel car meet the EPA rules AND still have the performance/fuel economy desired?
Surely someone must have realized they'd be hell to pay when this was discovered? There must be a smoking gun somewhere..
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Somehow you assume that you can value the stocks more accurately than the rest of the market. Do you have any relative advantage that supports it?
The whole stock market system is inherintly flawed because the people trading the stock are totally clueless. It's all based on hype, weird assumptions and most of all 'lemming behaviour'.
Will people stop buying cars made by VW? NO. Too many are loyal to the brand. Will VW go bankcrupt? NO. Even 16 billion is something they can cough up easely.
So why should a minor issue affect the value of the company that much? There is no rational reasoning behind it.
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... Tires with spikes are banned since the end of the 70s, they're only allowed on bicycles now ;D
Actually not!
There is an exempt from that law on the road between the ferry dock and the border-shop in Puttgarden on Fehmarn! :popcorn: :)
Haha, I didn't know that... Has to be a special service to our Scandinavian visitors to keep the booze flowing... (http://forum.cycling4fans.de/imagesdez03/smilies/neue/trinkkumpane.gif) ;)
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Actually winter tires perform very poor on wet roads (just look at the label if you think otherwise).
Yeah, technically you may very well be right (though I hadn't had any problems with them so far), it's more to avoid lenghty discussions with the police or your insurance company in case of an accident. :-\
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They just admitted that 11 million cars worldwide have this 'feature'
11 million ...
:palm:
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They just admitted that 11 million cars worldwide have this 'feature'
11 million ...
Yup, shit just got real, and deep:
https://www.volkswagen-media-services.com/detailpage/-/detail/Volkswagen-AG-has-issued-the-following-information/view/2715181/7a5bbec13158edd433c6630f5ac445da?p_p_auth=r49asElk (https://www.volkswagen-media-services.com/detailpage/-/detail/Volkswagen-AG-has-issued-the-following-information/view/2715181/7a5bbec13158edd433c6630f5ac445da?p_p_auth=r49asElk)
EDIT, included text, in-case deleted:
"Volkswagen AG has issued the Following Information:
Volkswagen is working at full speed to clarify irregularities Concerning a Particular software used in diesel engines. New vehicles from the Volkswagen Group with EU 6 diesel engines currently available in the European Union comply with legal requirements and environmental standards. The software in question does not affect handling, consumption or emissions. This gives clarity to customers and dealers.
Further Investigations Conducted to date have internal Established That the relevant engine management software is thus installed in other Volkswagen Group vehicles with diesel engines. For the majority of engines thesis the software does not have any effect. Discrepancies relate to vehicles with Type EA 189 engines, Involving some eleven million vehicles worldwide. A noticeable deviation between bench test results and actual road use which established Solely for this type of engine. Volkswagen is working intensely to eliminate thesis Deviations through technical measures. The company is THEREFORE in contact with the relevant Authorities and the German Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA - Federal Motor Transport Authority). To cover The Necessary service measures and other efforts to win back the trust of our customers, Volkswagen plans to set aside a commission of some 6.5 billion EUR Recognized in the profit and loss statement in the third quarter of the current fiscal year. Due to the ongoing investigations the estimated Amounts may be subject to revaluation. Earnings targets for the Group for 2015 will be adjusted accordingly. Volkswagen does not tolerate any kind of violation of laws whatsoever. It is and remains the top priority of the Board of Management to win back lost trust and to avert damage to our customers. The Group wants to inform The Public on the progress of the investigations Further Constantly and transparently."
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They just admitted that 11 million cars worldwide have this 'feature'
11 million ...
Yup, shit just got real, and deep:
https://www.volkswagen-media-services.com/detailpage/-/detail/Volkswagen-AG-has-issued-the-following-information/view/2715181/7a5bbec13158edd433c6630f5ac445da?p_p_auth=r49asElk (https://www.volkswagen-media-services.com/detailpage/-/detail/Volkswagen-AG-has-issued-the-following-information/view/2715181/7a5bbec13158edd433c6630f5ac445da?p_p_auth=r49asElk)
EDIT, included text, in-case deleted:
"Volkswagen AG has issued the Following Information:
Volkswagen is working at full speed to clarify irregularities Concerning a Particular software used in diesel engines. New vehicles from the Volkswagen Group with EU 6 diesel engines currently available in the European Union comply with legal requirements and environmental standards. The software in question does not affect handling, consumption or emissions. This gives clarity to customers and dealers.
Further Investigations Conducted to date have internal Established That the relevant engine management software is thus installed in other Volkswagen Group vehicles with diesel engines. For the majority of engines thesis the software does not have any effect. Discrepancies relate to vehicles with Type EA 189 engines, Involving some eleven million vehicles worldwide. A noticeable deviation between bench test results and actual road use which established Solely for this type of engine. Volkswagen is working intensely to eliminate thesis Deviations through technical measures. The company is THEREFORE in contact with the relevant Authorities and the German Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA - Federal Motor Transport Authority). To cover The Necessary service measures and other efforts to win back the trust of our customers, Volkswagen plans to set aside a commission of some 6.5 billion EUR Recognized in the profit and loss statement in the third quarter of the current fiscal year. Due to the ongoing investigations the estimated Amounts may be subject to revaluation. Earnings targets for the Group for 2015 will be adjusted accordingly. Volkswagen does not tolerate any kind of violation of laws whatsoever. It is and remains the top priority of the Board of Management to win back lost trust and to avert damage to our customers. The Group wants to inform The Public on the progress of the investigations Further Constantly and transparently."
"Thesis Deviation" :-DD Smell the SPIN :bullshit:
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Somewhere at the board level someone said. "We can't meet performance without cheating. But we think it is worth doing. We won't be caught."
11 million vehicles? Crazy. This is obviously not some issue isolated to specific engine models or something. This is endemic across the whole diesel technology line at VW. I wonder if Dad's 2009 Passat will be affected.
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11 million vehicles? Crazy. This is obviously not some issue isolated to specific engine models or something. This is endemic across the whole diesel technology line at VW. I wonder if Dad's 2009 Passat will be affected.
I don't think it's just VW. They are just the first one been caught. The whole car industry needs some "clean up" to fix all that cheating with gas mileage and all the other things.
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The software in question does not affect handling, consumption or emissions
...what? Is this whole story all about emissions? ???
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i find it 'coincidental' that Piech got replaced by Winterkorn at about the time the first investigations into this were openend ... macrh-may timeframe of this year... at that time there was already speculation of a 'plot' .. i wonder if this was the root , or a poison pill that was 'planted'.
Whatever it is i hope, that for once, the punishment goes to the top of the company and not to the lowly solder monkey or code flinger that had to implement this.
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Winterkorn
Who was just fired!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11881819/Volkswagen-live-VW-issues-profit-warning-sets-aside-6.5bn.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11881819/Volkswagen-live-VW-issues-profit-warning-sets-aside-6.5bn.html)
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the plot thickens....
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/04/27/piech-dismissal-failed-coup-winterkorn-report/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/04/27/piech-dismissal-failed-coup-winterkorn-report/)
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Can't speak for cars since I don't know much, but this happened (and probably still happens) for graphics card benchmark software as well. Nvidia got caught a decade ago getting their drivers to pull strings when benchmarking software was running.
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Can't speak for cars since I don't know much, but this happened (and probably still happens) for graphics card benchmark software as well. Nvidia got caught a decade ago getting their drivers to pull strings when benchmarking software was running.
I thought it was ATIs drivers 'optimising' for benchmarks and nVidias drivers 'optimising' for certain games? I can remember both getting flack for something like that at around the same time. Though I can also half remember in some cases the drivers were actually optimised and in others they just didn't apply features...
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There is a lot of gray between black and white. Optimization and cheating are sometimes a matter of perspective. And I guess this as true for graphics cards at it is for cars.
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The fact, that fuel consumption tests are "faked", by *all* car companies, was the reason for many displeased car buyers in europe and there were even some customer who accused car companies and they even won the case. But that was no reason for car companies or the government to prosecute the enterprises. So, they did the same with car pollution, i would not believe that, but it is logical, if you manipulate one test, why shouldn't you do it with the other test? That is no excuse for VW, but i think other car companies do exactly the same (if they produce diesel).
On the other hand, there are people in europe who believe, that this big accusation is in line with other sentences for other german big enterprises, which looks like an economic war. Germany has to host nearly 1 Million refugees from countries like Irak, Lybia and Syria, etc., countries where the US is making, is the reason or is involved in the war. Before those conflicts, the amount of refugees from those regions were nearly null. There are other areas of conflicts like the ukraine, where germany has no ambition to go to war for the US or others and TTIP is another point of conflict.
I don´t know if there is one truth in this theory, but it is also not important, nevertheless, it was a big foolishness from VW, they should know that every communication line in the west is observed by the usa and i can't believe that they really though, their cheating on the us-market would be no cause for the us-administration to react at the right time. Every interesting or big company in germany is observed by the NSA or the britisch GCHQ, so there is really no reason to believe, they could hide such really heavy manipulations.
I hope that this fraud will be the start for more transparent communication of technical data, emissions or fuel consumption and maybe one reason for this fraud is the lax control. I always thought that such a behavior in this big style was unthinkable for such a big company. I wonder if and how they make an arrangement, maybe the german government give some concessions regarding the ukraine, TTIP or Syria or something else, i don't know.
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Well, they've put aside €6.5 billion to deal with it.
11 million car engines affected from Volkswagens to Audis, Skodas and Seats. Although they claim that for the majority of those engines the software doesn't have any effect.
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I wonder how many customers will refuse to have the software update done or get annoyed with performance after it's done, maybe they should all demand a refund.
I could go blow the dust off the Kess V2 and put the performance back on these cars after the update | :-DD
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... Germany has to host nearly 1 Million refugees from countries like Irak, Lybia and Syria, etc....
Not this thread please...
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I am surprised that so many are surprised by this.
If one would look in to other manufacturers, one would find similar "options"
Even in the trucking business!
Hopefully this will not end up in a tsunami that will take the whole industry down.
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i'm convinced every car maker is doing the same..... and i know who is responsible for this !
it's us !!! because we don't want lazy cars with acceleration 0-100kmh (0-60mph) in 30 seconds. and we voted those governments making those un-achievable limits, and we are working for those corporations.
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I wonder if anyone remembers Beech Nut?
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/14/business/beech-nut-is-fined-2-million-for-sale-of-fake-apple-juice.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/14/business/beech-nut-is-fined-2-million-for-sale-of-fake-apple-juice.html)
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I wonder if anyone remembers Beech Nut?
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/14/business/beech-nut-is-fined-2-million-for-sale-of-fake-apple-juice.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1987/11/14/business/beech-nut-is-fined-2-million-for-sale-of-fake-apple-juice.html)
I guess if we where talking about oranges...
Sorry couldn't resist myself, you just left it wide open :)
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Don't forget Coca Cola's "Pomegranate Juice".
Which on closer inspection contains, yes, 0.3% Pomegranate Juice.
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-04-21/is-coca-colas-pomegranate-juice-real-enough-the-supreme-court-will-decide (http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-04-21/is-coca-colas-pomegranate-juice-real-enough-the-supreme-court-will-decide)
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Juice is difficult and a bad comparison. Some fruit juice just tastes bad when it is not blended. Try 100% mango juice for example. Combined with juice from a different fruit (oranges for example) mango juice suddenly tastes a whole lot better. OTOH apple juice is used a lot as a base because it is cheap. If you look closely at the ingredients of various (cheaper) juices you'll find many are mostly apple juice.
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The thread's title asks "[Are] VW firmware engineers morally bankrupt??" but after the last two days you have to wonder if it will be the company itself that will be left bankrupt.
The company's stock has lost 30% of its value in just two days. Regulators are focusing on them like lasers. Lawyers are lining up, licking their chops. The company's reputation among consumers is badly damaged...
Hard as it is to believe, there might not be a VW after all is said and done. At this point, if another shoe drops, another company may have to buy them out just to save them--which is crazy considering they just recently overtook Toyota as the largest car manufacturer.
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Hard as it is to believe, there might not be a VW after all is said and done.
I think they will be OK. Look at GM and they killed over 100 people and no one got in trouble. It will blow over and they will be able to raise their prices and everyone will be happy and dance together through a field of flowers.
I just wish the US would fine them 16 billion and use the money to keep the solar energy credit for home owners.
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Juice is indeed a problem.
Cranberry juice
Made with 100% juice
and when reading the fine print :
5% cranberry juice and the rest is apple and pear juice.
but people fall for the 100% ... and technically it is correct. 100% juice. Now, if it had stated 100% cranberry juice ...
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Time to buy VW stock ? >:D
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Time to buy VW stock ? >:D
i would wait a bit ;) it might go even lower >:D
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They could bounce back later today when the CEO is removed.
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It seem to be common in our days for German heavy industry companies to try and cheat the system?
Alexander.
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I suspect the VW brand will not be affected long term.
The Volkwagen is one of Adolf Hitler's brain childs, and the company used Jewish slave labour in WWII. Most people are ignorant of this and they don't care anyway. The odd thing in Australia is that VW's were always considered the working man's car (Beetles, Combi Vans, Passat) in the 60's and 70's. But today the VW is very popular among Chinese buyers who live in Australia who have no history here. They see VW's as a way of saving face because they believe VW is a prestigious brand. VW's biggest market is in the PRC. The Chinese sales won't be affected because corruption and fraud is so commonplace and systemic... its nothing new. Westerners will forget with their very short memories in face of brainwashing marketing ploys to regain confidence. Few Apple fanboys gave a stuff over the draconian working conditions and suicides in Apple's Foxconn factory. Same with the wage slaves in Bangladesh making labels for prestigious brands who died when their sweatshop collapsed on them. Few people care, as long as they can get more stuff.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2663635/Revealed-How-Nazis-helped-German-companies-Bosch-Mercedes-Deutsche-Bank-VW-VERY-rich-using-slave-labor.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2663635/Revealed-How-Nazis-helped-German-companies-Bosch-Mercedes-Deutsche-Bank-VW-VERY-rich-using-slave-labor.html)
So in the end, VW's share price will rebound. Look at BP's share price rebound after they screwed the gulf. From my observation, few people have a conscience when it comes to consumerism.
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The Volkwagen is one of Adolf Hitler's brain childs, and the company used Jewish slave labour in WWII. Most people are ignorant of this and they don't care anyway.
::) ::) ::)
I don't think that anyone who buys a VW today is guilty of supporting Nazism.
I was once informed that Jews don't buy Fords because of the fact that Henry Ford was an avid anti-Semite (who, amongst other things, bankrolled the publication and distribution of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion). I used to walk past a (now defunct) Jewish primary school on my way to work every day. I noted that Ford was actually over-represented in their car park. Don't recall counting any Volkswagens though as I didn't take particular note.
People in general are just full of shit.
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Growing in Brazil in the 70's and 80's, my impression of VW is very different than the mainstream opinion here in the US.
VW (with GM and Ford second and third) was the largest car manufacturer in Brazil from the 60's well into the 90's and, due to their massive employment, they always used layoffs as a bargain chip when dealing with both local and national government contracts (all police cars were VM beetles and most ambulances and postman cars were Kombis). Basically: do what I want and pay what I want or I will layoff people or leave the country altogether. Not solely blaming the company, as the bozos at the government let themselves be hostages, but the corporation attitude is what counts for this discussion.
Not only that, but VWs were known for excellent mechanics and absolutely hideous finishing (we were a VW family for several years). Some anecdoctal evidence in our family: it took them almost a year with arrogance and excuses as to why not replace a defective carburetor on a top-of-the-line brand new Santana (Passat sedan for the foreigners). Years later and a few friends here in the US had similar troubles with them, where the scenario was very similar: VW arrogance and endless excuses to replace parts clearly defective from the get-go. Again, the attitude is what counts.
Therefore I am not a bit surprised by this crap going on. Hopefully they pay a very steep price for their arrogance.
By the way, I was sent the article below.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/advanced-cars/how-professors-caught-vw-cheating (http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/advanced-cars/how-professors-caught-vw-cheating)
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The Volkwagen is one of Adolf Hitler's brain childs,
Wow, said the guy who is the child of some criminal, like all Australians! [/sarcasm][/stereotype]
Seriously, here in Europe, everyone is convinced that history is ended, and it never existed.
So can we get back to define the EU approved size for the cucumber?
VW cars are bought because they are the absolute pinnacle of technology for the right amount of money. A Jeremy Clarkson said, they have like thousand people working on the dashboard of a car, where to put each button, how to interact. Everything in them just works, as you expect, no surprise. Biggest manufacturing company in Europe.
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The Volkwagen is one of Adolf Hitler's brain childs, and the company used Jewish slave labour in WWII. Most people are ignorant of this and they don't care anyway.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2663635/Revealed-How-Nazis-helped-German-companies-Bosch-Mercedes-Deutsche-Bank-VW-VERY-rich-using-slave-labor.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2663635/Revealed-How-Nazis-helped-German-companies-Bosch-Mercedes-Deutsche-Bank-VW-VERY-rich-using-slave-labor.html)
It's not that simple. Back then any industry or company producing military and war related stuff had to take forced labourers to increase their output for the Nazis. It's no excuse, but should be known to get a more complete picture. Some companies are still hushing up that part of their history, and others have done a lot (open dialogs, reparation and so on).
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It's the same thing like graphic card drivers detecting benchmark software and change parameters to 'optimize it' years ago.
There could be a grey zone, when are you optimizing and when are you cheating.
BTW I have a VW for 4 years now paying monthly taxes based on how 'green' it is, I can probably buy a nice DMM with those savings ::)
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VW cars are bought because they are the absolute pinnacle of technology for the right amount of money. A Jeremy Clarkson said, they have like thousand people working on the dashboard of a car, where to put each button, how to interact. Everything in them just works, as you expect, no surprise. Biggest manufacturing company in Europe.
Luckily I didn't spill my coffee :) VW is expensive. Their spare parts are expensive and they tried a lot of shabby tricks to prevent the re-import inside the EU. The same car produced in the same factory was about 30% less expensive in Italy than in Germany for example. My former company had an Audi A4 with a nice feature of outwearing one specific tyre very fast (had to be replaced every 9-12 months, while the others were still fine). A lot of other owners of the same model had the same issue. Audi (a part of VW) denied any design error. Or do you remember how VW tried to silence some security researchers about a major issue with the key fobs for years? VW lost the trial and the security researchers gave a nice presentation at Usenix this year. No VW for me!
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Here is a good video, showing how California took care of air pollution and why the US is so strict, when it comes to air pollution.
Clearing California Skies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2Ra8PRtXSU#t=137 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2Ra8PRtXSU#t=137)
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I've read the whole 15 page thread... interesting discussion. All things considered, the detrimental impact of a few VW's adding more pollutants to the environment is minimal compared to everything else we should be focusing on. While some consumers may feel guilty about adding to pollution, most will probably not obey the recall due to the impact it will have on fuel economy, added repair and maintenance costs on the emissions controls system.
This seems more like a fight between EPA and VW and meant as an example of why you should not screw with the government. And if anyone thinks it has to do with protectionism, you can quickly refute that argument by calling in ALL manufacturers and changing the testing conditions to get around the defeat systems. Let's test every diesel make on the road.
Sure we have conspiracy theories, but VW admitted to using the software to defeat EPA, so it is like a slap in the face. The other thing is VW gained an unfair competitive advantage by offering more responsive cars with better fuel economy while their competitors cars were loaded down in those pesky emissions controls systems that had to work all the time.
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... Some companies are still hushing up that part of their history, and others have done a lot (open dialogs, reparation and so on).
Here in Australia there is company called CSL, when it was government owned, conducted medical experiments on orphaned babies at the Broadmeadows Babies Home for decades until 1970. They injected them with viruses like herpes simplex, experimental flu vaccines, and whatever other crap. The babies had no say in the matter. Nuns called the Roman Catholic Sisters of St Joseph ran the orphanage. CSL today says, "It wasn't us... we are now privatised. It was under ownership of the federal government which allegedly did these things." A good escape clause for CSL, which today is worth $41 BILLION. The Catholic Church are proven experts at avoiding paying out compensation and defiling their "good name" >:D. The Catholic Church and CSL have said they lost the records :-//. Quite convenient.
In contrast, VW are taking fully responsibility and accountability :-+ for their crime. To fine them heavily and imprison the fraudsters is the start. And they would have to take the non-compliant cars off the road off to fix them up. I read somewhere reducing emissions would affect performance and fuel economy, leading to a class action against them by their owners. But the surviving babies from the Broadmeadows Babies Home won't ever get a cent :palm:.
On the lighter side, imagine... you order a luxury car but end up with a bloody Volkswagen :-DD.
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For whatever standard they were tested to, the headline numbers are that they were exceeded by up to 40x.
1. Is there any data yet about the aggregate amount exceeded? 3x? 10x? 30x?
2. How does the current standard compare with previous standards that automotive fleets were built to? Was it 3x more lax? 10x? 30x?
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From a customer standpoint of view it would be really dumb to let their car get "fixed" with updated firmware. Just to discover its now higher fuel consumption and maybe decreased performance. I wonder if such an update would be mandantory by law (for the customers)? :-//
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From a customer standpoint of view it would be really dumb to let their car get "fixed" with updated firmware. Just to discover its now higher fuel consumption and maybe decreased performance. I wonder if such an update would be mandantory by law (for the customers)? :-//
Most states and provinces (at least speaking from a Canadian/US perspective) have emissions tests every so often when you renew your car registration. So you can't avoid it for long... you will not pass and will have to fix your car. Unless you program the car just before the test so you can pass, then turn it off after to gain back your performance and fuel economy.
I believe there are after-market tools that car enthusiasts use to modify their car computer and so they know how to modify their emissions systems. Unfortunately, it shouldn't be up to the owner to be able to alter their car and pollute much more than allowed by law. You can't expect police to run after everyone sniffing their tailpipes with a probe.
However, in the big picture, a few people who know how to do it, really makes no difference. Like those "coal" car guys who blow smoke on Priuses. The problem is now everybody with a VW diesel is doing it whether they want to or not.
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For whatever standard they were tested to, the headline numbers are that they were exceeded by up to 40x.
The letter from the EPA (see first post) states 40 times. Different numbers are floating around in the media but I'd rather stick to what the EPA wrote.
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The Volkwagen is one of Adolf Hitler's brain childs
That explains his reaction to the EPA incident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0BRGasUUr4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0BRGasUUr4)
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zapta, thanks for sending one more of Ganz' impersonations... :)
However, it seems the youtube video you posted is a copy from the original poster, which is located here (https://youtu.be/dKef1JFpiCA). Care to change it? :)
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VW CEO Martin Winterkorn got the chop ("resigned", but I'm pretty sure he got forced out.)
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Well he did sketch the original design...
(http://i.imgur.com/7gdovRj.jpg)
The original VW logo had a sort of iron cross / swastika look to it.
(http://i.imgur.com/DMocwUo.jpg)
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I am not sure about the EPA figure of 40X increase, the cars would be laying down smoke like a battleship. The BBC gave a figure of 4X far more realistic. Any car smoking that much would soon get pulled by PC Plod.
I used to have a 1952 vintage Albion lorry and going up a steep hill I got pulled for smoking.
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NOx is invisible and odourless. It's the NOx figure that's "10 to 40 times" over the limit, per the EPA report.
NOx causes smog and strongly harms people with asthma and reduced respirative systems.
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Different values results from different models, the VW passat presumably had 5 till 20 times higher values, the VW Jetta 15 till 35 times and so on.
Volkswagen CEO Winterkorn already resigned from his job (although he claims that he didnt knew anything about the emission fraud).
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Well he did sketch the original design...
(http://i.imgur.com/7gdovRj.jpg)
Reminds me the french 4CV.
BTW, the new VW CEO is from the dynasty of the Beatle designer.
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BTW, the new VW CEO is from the dynasty of the Beatle designer.
c3wl, what will they build next, Yellow Submarines? :-DD
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This could be an explanation (or plausible excuse) as to why the revs are limited in neutral.
You probably don't want to engage the cruise control when the car is in neutral.
I mean, who hasn't tried that, to see what would happen?
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I wonder how many customers will refuse to have the software update done or get annoyed with performance after it's done, maybe they should all demand a refund.
I could go blow the dust off the Kess V2 and put the performance back on these cars after the update | :-DD
I saw an article (which I cannot find now) which suggested that there are several states in the US (including, believe it or not, deep-red Arizona, where I live) which may not allow owners of the affected cars to register them because the cars do not meet emissions standards. And if you can't register a car, you can't drive it, nor can you sell it. This basically forces the owners to bring the cars in for the recall.
I have a 2011 Jetta SportWagen TDI. I'm one of the millions of car owners who is waiting to see how this will all play out. The ideal solution is that VW comes out with a fix that doesn't destroy the car's performance. I am not at all opposed to a buy-back.
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From a customer standpoint of view it would be really dumb to let their car get "fixed" with updated firmware. Just to discover its now higher fuel consumption and maybe decreased performance. I wonder if such an update would be mandantory by law (for the customers)? :-//
It will be mandatory in the sense that some states may not allow an unrepaired vehicle to be registered. And if the vehicle isn't registered, it can't be driven.
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BTW, the new VW CEO is from the dynasty of the Beatle designer.
c3wl, what will they build next, Yellow Submarines? :-DD
We all live in a Yellow MicroBus, a Yellow MicroBus, a Yellow MicroBus...
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Had this morning an unpleasant VAG moment, busy highway with commute traffic, computer reports a sudden drop in rear left tire pressure, pressue drop to 20psi, 18, 15,..., I stop at the margin, check the tire, it has a big nail stuck in it at a hard to reach 'corner' of the tire. The car didn't come with a spare tire (less weight to achieve government MPG nonsense), no no-air tires and the car is too close to the traffic to try and fix it using the two patching kits I carry. Had to wait in the sun until the two truck arrived and towed it to the dealership. They will replace the two rear tires (with ~30k miles on them) but the tires will arrive only tomorrow. I am driving now a cute small red Chevy loaner. Will go with the wife for a fun drive after sunset.
That tire sensor thing saved me from damaging the wheels. Good job on that one.
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from hackernews:
jeromeflipo 4 hours ago
In July, France 2 (the #1 public national television channel in France) released a documentary 0 that showed to which extent the French auto manufacturer PSA lied about NO2 emissions.
At 1h19s 1, Pierre Macaudière, head of emission control systems at PSA, admits that the model tested emits 1700 ppm of NO2, after measuring 200 ppm (the legal limit) with their own machines.
At 1h17m11s 2, the researchers commissioned by the EU shows the journalist that not one manufacturer respects the legal limits of 200 ppm. He's frightened to tell the journalist that it's all just a widespread fraud.
0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JFprj6v37Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JFprj6v37Q)
1 https://youtu.be/5JFprj6v37Q?t=1h19s (https://youtu.be/5JFprj6v37Q?t=1h19s)
2 https://youtu.be/5JFprj6v37Q?t=1h17m11s (https://youtu.be/5JFprj6v37Q?t=1h17m11s)
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Car industry 'buried report revealing US car safety flaws over fears for TTIP deal'.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/new-ttip-scandal-car-industry-buried-report-revealing-us-car-safety-flaws-10514716.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/new-ttip-scandal-car-industry-buried-report-revealing-us-car-safety-flaws-10514716.html)
Alexander.
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A lot of people in this thread seem to think this was no big deal but the company's stock tanked today! VW lost 15 billion dollars in market cap...
What a great opportunity to buy.
In max. 6 months those numbers will be like before, because investors will know by then that every other manufacturer is into it in the same way.
Somehow you assume that you can value the stocks more accurately than the rest of the market. Do you have any relative advantage that supports it?
Yes, but it only works in areas where I have real knowledge. Plus in this particular case, I assume that "the rest of the market" doesn't know that EVERY car builder is into the same game.
Let's see in a couple of months if my specific knowledge + assumption is right.
Time to buy VW stock ? >:D
i would wait a bit ;) it might go even lower >:D
We really need inside info now.
How are the investigations in other factories "evolving"?
How many employees are suddenly transferred to the coverup department?
We need to knowexacly the day other news "comes out", this will also be the value bottom of VW.
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Winterkorn
Who was just fired!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11881819/Volkswagen-live-VW-issues-profit-warning-sets-aside-6.5bn.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11881819/Volkswagen-live-VW-issues-profit-warning-sets-aside-6.5bn.html)
I read in the news he resigned.
Another "guess": in a couple of months he will hold an equal-dollar-payed position into another (less fanboyed) industry.
After all, he made sales go really good until that little "incident" in 2015.
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The Volkwagen is one of Adolf Hitler's brain childs, and the company used Jewish slave labour in WWII. Most people are ignorant of this and they don't care anyway.
Next step for your in-ignorance is to discover that Hitler, his political career and imperium was made big by American Jew money.
You can somehow discover that there's a circle that's closed here. What exit are you gonna choose to name things cause and effect?
and a good exercise for your high Morals, is to look to what degree your clothes, coffee, TV and smartphone are made by slave labour.
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Nearly the same with at least one BMW Model. According to german news, the X3 xDrive 20d exceeds european critical NOx values. (I think, nearly every company producing diesel is doing the same)
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Nearly the same with at least one BMW Model. According to german news, the X3 xDrive 20d exceeds european critical NOx values. (I think, nearly every company producing diesel is doing the same)
And even more fun: VWs is cheating in the EU too. They can't give any details and numbers yet, but 1.6l and 2.0l diesel engines in all VW brands might be effected.
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And even more fun: VWs is cheating in the EU too.
It's not cheating, it's an engineering workaround.
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And even more fun: VWs is cheating in the EU too.
It's not cheating, it's an engineering workaround.
Although it seems "funny" and we are fascinated by this amount of deception, i think it is a big, big reason for shame for VW and the german automobile industry. I think this fraud was possible because of heaviest wheeling and dealing between german automobile industry, government, regulators and organizations. They also cheated german customers and that was the reason for me to be very angry because they faked also the fuel consumption and argued that this is a normal standard procedure. I hope, they really investigate this behavior and become more transparent and credible again.
(Besides that, now i drive an Audi A3 TDI and i would always buy a german car again)
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I think we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.
If VW had to cheat the NOx regulations by such a huge margin AND they are heavily involved with BOSCH who are world leaders in diesel technology, you have to assume that other manufacturers (with the possible exception of Mercedes) are doing something similar. It'll be interesting to see if this spreads to the likes of (BOSCH), PSA (Citroen/Peugeot), BMW, FORD, VAUXHALL, etc... All who make a living from small diesels.
Also, what will happen if the governments re-rate the affected cars - the car tax and BIK (benefit in-kind, company car tax) is bound to increase dramatically.
What if large diesels/trucks (who, presumably are tested by the same regime) are also found to be cheating????
Are VAG going to suspend sales/deliveries of all the affected cars worldwide??????
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I read up on petrol/gasoline versus diesel. Diesel takes you more miles to the gallon, and has less hydrocarbon emissions than regular gas. However, it does have substantially higher NOx output and particulates than gas. Economically speaking, diesel gives you more bang for the buck. Gasoline is less efficient and produces more greenhouse gases.
Now, the major problem with diesel is that from a pollution standpoint, it's the NOx and particulates that causes the worst smog and breathing issues. Actually having tons more carbon dioxide (which is clear and colorless) won't make you as sick so we tolerate it even though petrol/gas puts out way more and is less efficient.
If diesel had no NOx or particulates, it would beat petrol/gas by a long shot. But now we are all paying more for an energy-inferior fuel that runs "cleaner"... that is, still putting out lots of CO2 but none of the more toxic stuff.
So the cars running diesel have to use filters that suppress particles, and special systems to capture NOx. To reduce weight and increase performance, VW and probably most other new diesels are under sizing the systems needed for this. That is to reduce user complaints about needing so many more maintenance or filter and chemical changes. So the solution, turn those systems off for most of the time so you don't have to maintain as often. And we have already heard in this thread, some of the "Regenerative" filters are supposed to burn off particles and refresh themselves when the car is on a long countryside drive when things are all warmed up. But often this happens in the city and many people using it in stop and go traffic.
We can argue all day long about the benefits of diesel (of which there are many) over gas/petrol. The main issue here is that EPA set some rules. We may not totally agree, but they were set. All players needed to follow the rules. If diesel cars can be made to work under these rules, make them. They may not be as powerful and need more routine maintenance of the pollution capturing systems, but they will still be cheaper to drive per mile due to more cost-effective powerful fuel.
VW purposefully designed their cars to work around EPA rules. They could have just kept the systems on and made bigger systems to control emissions longer before needing replacement or maintenance. They chose to put in the bare minimum to bypass emissions tests and reduce cost, and they knew the car could not run legally with those systems on all the time for very long as they were just not big enough to handle the job.
There are cars which the group tested that did fall under guidelines, like that BMW. While I am sure other companies are cheating, let's wait until we know more about the cars that DID pass EPA rules in real world use and ask why? Did their emissions system stay on all the time? Was it larger? Did it require more changes all the time? Was the performance taking a hit in order to comply?
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The Volkwagen is one of Adolf Hitler's brain childs, and the company used Jewish slave labour in WWII. Most people are ignorant of this and they don't care anyway.
Next step for your in-ignorance is to discover that Hitler, his political career and imperium was made big by American Jew money...
....and a good exercise for your high Morals, is to look to what degree your clothes, coffee, TV and smartphone are made by slave labour.
What's this "American Jew money" crap? Sounds like straight out of the mouth of Marine Le Len's father.
I do exercise conscience when buying products:
Clothes?
I used to buy my shirts from Rivers. But they were caught out using Bangladeshi sweatshop labour, and they lost me as a customer for ever. I wrote to Rivers to tell them so.
I buy clothes that, to the best of my knowledge, were made by people who were paid fairly for their work.
Coffee?
I have never had a cup of coffee in my life (seriously). Not one. And I don't plan to start. So your assumption is 100% :bullshit:. I do buy some products from Fair Trade distributors. http://fairtrade.com.au/ (http://fairtrade.com.au/)
TV?
Actually it is a Bravia made in Japan, including the PCB's. No sweatshop labour there, my friend. And no shoddy workmanship either.
Smartphone?
I do not own Apple anything, on principal. OK, it is an old Samsung... maybe pulling the same tricks as Apple were before they got caught out; I don't know, but I have my suspicions.
So you score a 0. 5 out of 4 on your assumptions.... we are not doing too well are we.
Result = FAIL.
à bientôt
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I do exercise conscience when buying products:
Clothes?
I used to buy my shirts from Rivers. But they were caught out using Bangladeshi sweatshop labour, and they lost me as a customer for ever. I wrote to Rivers to tell them so.
I buy clothes that, to the best of my knowledge, were made by people who were paid fairly for their work.
Coffee?
I have never had a cup of coffee in my life (seriously). Not one. And I don't plan to start. So your assumption is 100% :bullshit:. I do buy some products from Fair Trade distributors. http://fairtrade.com.au/ (http://fairtrade.com.au/)
TV?
Actually it is a Bravia made in Japan, including the PCB's. No sweatshop labour there, my friend. And no shoddy workmanship either.
Smartphone?
I do not own Apple anything, on principal. OK, it is an old Samsung... maybe pulling the same tricks as Apple were before they got caught out; I don't know, but I have my suspicions.
So you score a 0. 5 out of 4 on your assumptions.... we are not doing too well are we.
Result = FAIL.
à bientôt
Living in a first world country is hard.
:)
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I'd like to know why the mighty EPA was able to be fooled for so many years. Isn't it odd that they can point to manufactures, that they are to blame for fooling the EPA? Doesn't the EPA test for cheating? Have they never heard of people/companies hiding things? I'd like to see an investigation of the EPA for their failure of trusting the manufacturers.
If only the IRS was so gullible. "Yeah, I only made $5 last year. My computer says so."
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And even more fun: VWs is cheating in the EU too.
It's not cheating, it's an engineering workaround.
Although it seems "funny" ...
I didn't try to be funny. It's an engineering workaround, similar to engineering workarounds for the great firewall of China.
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I didn't try to be funny. It's an engineering workaround, similar to engineering workarounds for the great firewall of China.
I didnt meant it as a accusation...
Btw., german newspaper: development chiefs of Audi and Porsche also resigned
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BMW and MB diesels have a very expensive additive on the diesels, urea, that you have to add at regular intervals, and they will warn you it is low and refuse to run when empty, or limit engine envelope severely. Lot of people moan about that expensive additive, which for some is not covered by the service pack. You pay for fuel, top up oil, tyres and exhaust emissions control agent, plus the vehicle will trigger a check engine light and store a permanent code if you use it on non low sulphur diesel.
Here a lot of trucks are run on illuminating paraffin, because it is 5c a litre cheaper. Not too good for long life of the engine, because the IP has no control of cetane rating for lubricity, and contains a lot of added wax that will clog injectors or burn on the tip.
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BMW and MB diesels have a very expensive additive on the diesels, urea, that you have to add at regular intervals, and they will warn you it is low and refuse to run when empty, or limit engine envelope severely.
Audi too. Its called Addblue, made from pig urine, so I believe. Car manufacturers really are taking the piss.
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I didn't try to be funny. It's an engineering workaround, similar to engineering workarounds for the great firewall of China.
I didnt meant it as a accusation...
Btw., german newspaper: development chiefs of Audi and Porsche also resigned
Don't underestimate the power of the government and its bureaucracy.
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BMW and MB diesels have a very expensive additive on the diesels, urea, that you have to add at regular intervals, and they will warn you it is low and refuse to run when empty, or limit engine envelope severely.
Audi too. Its called Addblue, made from pig urine, so I believe. Car manufacturers really are taking the piss.
Plus it has a special filler nozzle that is part of the bottle, and each one uses a slightly different one that is deliberately not interchangeable between manufacturers, to force you to use a dealer for it, at dealer price. Would not put it past them to add a chip to it to enforce a lock in as well.
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I know for a fact that Ford also uses DEF in their DPFs, and I'm pretty certain that's standard across all manufacturers now, not just BMW and Mercedes...
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BMW and MB diesels have a very expensive additive on the diesels, urea, that you have to add at regular intervals, and they will warn you it is low and refuse to run when empty, or limit engine envelope severely.
Audi too. Its called Addblue, made from pig urine, so I believe. Car manufacturers really are taking the piss.
Those systems to reduce particulate emissions have been required in California for a few years now.
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Not made from urine, it is easier to simply use Haber process ammonia and react it to form concentrated urea.
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BMW and MB diesels have a very expensive additive on the diesels, urea, that you have to add at regular intervals, and they will warn you it is low and refuse to run when empty, or limit engine envelope severely.
Audi too. Its called Addblue, made from pig urine, so I believe. Car manufacturers really are taking the piss.
Those systems to reduce particulate emissions have been required in California for a few years now.
particulate filter and adblue are 2 different things.... particulate filter is there to catch soot particles and adblue is injected into a catalytic converter to take care of NOx.....etc...
e.g. every VW diesel has the DPF (particulate filter) since 2008 (i think) in europe but only some more recent versions have adblue injection (vw bluemotion)
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I stand corrected thanks. :)
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... i think it is a big, big reason for shame for VW ...
...They also cheated german customers and that was the reason for me to be very angry because they faked also the fuel consumption and argued that ...
...(Besides that, now i drive an Audi A3 TDI and i would always buy a german car again)
Who cares about your anger and/or other emotions if the next car is already sold to you anyways?
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What's this "American Jew money" crap? Sounds like straight out of the mouth of Marine Le Len's father.
O, just a little gap in your Marx indoctinated knowledge.
Something the history rewriters of the "winning" side of the war tend to "forget" and so it was not repeated often enough for you.
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Saying that much industry in pre-war Germany was financed by Americans, many of whom were Jewish, is accurate and historical. Saying it was created with American Jew money is a pejorative viewpoint that implies motives that require much more documentation.
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How the crap did it happen that the discussion turned in this direction?
Isn't it possible for a German to let off a fart without stirring up this kind of crap?
I guess I might need to move back to Antarctica again.
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How the crap did it happen that the discussion turned in this direction?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
It's really saddening :-[
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How the crap did it happen that the discussion turned in this direction?
Isn't it possible for a German to let off a fart without stirring up this kind of crap?
Fart? This is kind of a gas, right?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Interesting - I did not know this
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Interesting - I did not know this
SERIOUSLY? You didn't know Godwins law? What are you, some kind of holocaust denier? A freakin' Nazi? ... is your grandad Hitler? ;)
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SERIOUSLY? You didn't know Godwins law? - No
What are you, some kind of holocaust denier? - No
A freakin' Nazi? - No
... is your grandad Hitler? - No (I did not know he had children - learning a lot today)
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How the crap did it happen that the discussion turned in this direction?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
It's really saddening :-[
Godwin? Any relation to Goebbles?
It's a self fulfilling prophecy, the Godman minions make sure to derail the threads with Godman references.
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How the crap did it happen that the discussion turned in this direction?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
It's really saddening :-[
Indeed. It usually means there is 1 guy without arguments, but still wants to be on top of the discussion.
No matter what.
There's an analogy in people that suddenly start using the "R" word, without specific motivation.
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Saying that much industry in pre-war Germany was financed by Americans, many of whom were Jewish, is accurate and historical. Saying it was created with American Jew money is a pejorative viewpoint that implies motives that require much more documentation.
Saying my quote containing the word Jew is pejorative, is your personal biased viewpoint.
Maybe I have to start being a Jew, to get the permission to use that word.
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VW cars are bought because they are the absolute pinnacle of technology for the right amount of money. A Jeremy Clarkson said, they have like thousand people working on the dashboard of a car, where to put each button, how to interact. Everything in them just works, as you expect, no surprise. Biggest manufacturing company in Europe.
Bleeding edge of technology perhaps, but I'd prefer quality engineering over bling in an expensive item like a car.
The 'just work' for a little while. And then they break and cost a fortune to repair. I'd bet a Toyota against a VW any day for 'Just Works'.
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If I cheat at FCC/ETSI certifications and get caught, my product gets pulled out of the market. If I cheat at ATEX or similar certifications, I get sued and will not be able to do business anywhere. The EPA or any equivalent agency in other countries should have similar power.
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If I cheat at FCC/ETSI certifications and get caught, my product gets pulled out of the market. If...
After the Verdict. Before that, you put your 1000 lawyers, lobbyists and stakeholders at work.
Cheat and caught are very stretchable concepts.
The more laws and regulations, the less justice.
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Not made from urine, it is easier to simply use Haber process ammonia and react it to form concentrated urea.
Yeah urine has such a low urea content per volume it's not really worth using it. For others: Commercial diesel exhaust fluid is 37% urea, 63% water.
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...
Bleeding edge of technology perhaps, but I'd prefer quality engineering over bling in an expensive item like a car.
The 'just work' for a little while. And then they break and cost a fortune to repair. I'd bet a Toyota against a VW any day for 'Just Works'.
My first car, a *real* VW beattle, was about 15 years old and i could repair allmost everything on it by my own. My second car, a mercedes benz, was 10 years old and had more than 200.000 km on the speedo when i bought it, i drove it 8 years and more than 100.000 km, paid almost nothing for repairs. Today my car is an Audi A3, it is 13 years old and i drove it nearly 200.000km with almost no repair. But now, the repairs are starting, but not because of a failure but because of abrasion and i think, i would like to repair it (i did already some smaller repairs) until the parts are new to drive it another 10 years, the engine (tdi) is just fine. I know, other brands are also not bad, Toyota, Nissan, etc., but i don´t know much people in my periphery who drove their cars not even close to 10 years, i don´t know why.
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Clive Colman:
"On 9 September 2015, the Department of Justice issued a new policy memorandum, signed by Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates, covering the prosecution of individuals in corporate fraud cases. Entitled "Individual Accountability for Corporate Wrongdoing" it is more commonly known as "the Yates Memorandum".
It places a much stronger focus on the investigation and prosecution of corporate executives than ever before. Previously there was a sense that if companies "fessed up" and co-operated with investigators, key individuals would be spared. Not now.
The memo makes clear that: "To qualify for any co-operation credit whatsoever, in both criminal and civil cases, corporations under investigation must provide DoJ with all relevant facts about the individuals involved in corporate misconduct."
Follow the evidence
Michael O'Kane, a partner at the law firm Peters & Peters says: "Investigators are now bound to go after key individuals from the start. They must follow the evidence in emails, documents, minutes of meetings etc, to find out who knew or connived in the rigging in order to find the most culpable and senior individuals."
Bad news for any individuals at VW involved in the rigging. But bad news also for the company. The US is a country that takes white collar and environmental crime very seriously.
"
Full article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34352243 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34352243)
The Yates Memorandum is here (pages 3&4 are the interesting bit):
http://www.justice.gov/dag/file/769036/DOWNLOAD (http://www.justice.gov/dag/file/769036/DOWNLOAD)
So we could potentially see firmware engineers jailed..
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Saying that much industry in pre-war Germany was financed by Americans, many of whom were Jewish, is accurate and historical. Saying it was created with American Jew money is a pejorative viewpoint that implies motives that require much more documentation.
Saying my quote containing the word Jew is pejorative, is your personal biased viewpoint.
Maybe I have to start being a Jew, to get the permission to use that word.
Another one has escaped.
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Saying that much industry in pre-war Germany was financed by Americans, many of whom were Jewish, is accurate and historical. Saying it was created with American Jew money is a pejorative viewpoint that implies motives that require much more documentation.
Saying my quote containing the word Jew is pejorative, is your personal biased viewpoint.
Maybe I have to start being a Jew, to get the permission to use that word.
Another one has escaped.
whats with all this PC BS? YOU PC BRAh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFVtamh2dNU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFVtamh2dNU)
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YOU PC BRAh?
Yes that's it.
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...
Bleeding edge of technology perhaps, but I'd prefer quality engineering over bling in an expensive item like a car.
The 'just work' for a little while. And then they break and cost a fortune to repair. I'd bet a Toyota against a VW any day for 'Just Works'.
My first car, a *real* VW beattle, was about 15 years old and i could repair allmost everything on it by my own. My second car, a mercedes benz, was 10 years old and had more than 200.000 km on the speedo when i bought it, i drove it 8 years and more than 100.000 km, paid almost nothing for repairs. Today my car is an Audi A3, it is 13 years old and i drove it nearly 200.000km with almost no repair. But now, the repairs are starting, but not because of a failure but because of abrasion and i think, i would like to repair it (i did already some smaller repairs) until the parts are new to drive it another 10 years, the engine (tdi) is just fine. I know, other brands are also not bad, Toyota, Nissan, etc., but i don´t know much people in my periphery who drove their cars not even close to 10 years, i don´t know why.
Yes, thats the reliability I would expect. However my 9 year old VW has had to have the torque converter replaced at only 114000kms. This is common and plenty of examples on google! But would have been rare on the older vehicles you have had.
During this process I learned that the auto transmission has 'lifetime' oil, and has no dipstick.
Therefore I believe VW's are _now_ built to a price to only last 80-100000 kms.
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Therefore I believe VW's are _now_ built to a price to only last 80-100000 kms.
Yes, and it's your fault for not buying a new car every year. :P
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Therefore I believe VW's are _now_ built to a price to only last 80-100000 kms.
Yes, and it's your fault for not buying a new car every year. :P
:-+
Maybe I need a horse. Cheaper to run and probably will last longer. Comes with 4WD standard too :)
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VW should resell all their non-compliant cars to red China where no software workaround is needed. Just a banquet in honour of Chairman Mao's Communist Party and few million dollars into the foreign bank account of some greasy official and the job's done, like magic.
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VW should resell all their non-compliant cars to red China where no software workaround is needed. Just a banquet in honour of Chairman Mao's Communist Party and few million dollars into the foreign bank account of some greasy official and the job's done, like magic.
They already do. It's their biggest market apparently.
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But mostly petrol engines. Diesels are practically nonexistent. So no problems there.
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I read up on petrol/gasoline versus diesel. Diesel takes you more miles to the gallon, and has less hydrocarbon emissions than regular gas. However, it does have substantially higher NOx output and particulates than gas. Economically speaking, diesel gives you more bang for the buck. Gasoline is less efficient and produces more greenhouse gases.
Now, the major problem with diesel is that from a pollution standpoint, it's the NOx and particulates that causes the worst smog and breathing issues. Actually having tons more carbon dioxide (which is clear and colorless) won't make you as sick so we tolerate it even though petrol/gas puts out way more and is less efficient.
If diesel had no NOx or particulates, it would beat petrol/gas by a long shot. But now we are all paying more for an energy-inferior fuel that runs "cleaner"... that is, still putting out lots of CO2 but none of the more toxic stuff.
So the cars running diesel have to use filters that suppress particles, and special systems to capture NOx. To reduce weight and increase performance, VW and probably most other new diesels are under sizing the systems needed for this. That is to reduce user complaints about needing so many more maintenance or filter and chemical changes. So the solution, turn those systems off for most of the time so you don't have to maintain as often. And we have already heard in this thread, some of the "Regenerative" filters are supposed to burn off particles and refresh themselves when the car is on a long countryside drive when things are all warmed up. But often this happens in the city and many people using it in stop and go traffic.
We can argue all day long about the benefits of diesel (of which there are many) over gas/petrol. The main issue here is that EPA set some rules. We may not totally agree, but they were set. All players needed to follow the rules. If diesel cars can be made to work under these rules, make them. They may not be as powerful and need more routine maintenance of the pollution capturing systems, but they will still be cheaper to drive per mile due to more cost-effective powerful fuel.
VW purposefully designed their cars to work around EPA rules. They could have just kept the systems on and made bigger systems to control emissions longer before needing replacement or maintenance. They chose to put in the bare minimum to bypass emissions tests and reduce cost, and they knew the car could not run legally with those systems on all the time for very long as they were just not big enough to handle the job.
There are cars which the group tested that did fall under guidelines, like that BMW. While I am sure other companies are cheating, let's wait until we know more about the cars that DID pass EPA rules in real world use and ask why? Did their emissions system stay on all the time? Was it larger? Did it require more changes all the time? Was the performance taking a hit in order to comply?
You are absolutely right on the money. diesel is more efficient and hence more cleaner from a CO2 emmission point of view compared to gasoline/petrol by a long shot. I am afraid this VW scandal will make people even more wary of buying diesel here due to wrong perceptions that diesel is inherently unclean. The other compaines already were mitigating NOx through urea injection, its just this particular company which chose the "easy" way out.
Another advantage of diesel vs Gas is that any diesel engine will run on biodiesel which can me made from recycled cooking oil etc meaning genuinely renewable resource whereas corn based ethanol gas mixures are not only more excpensive/less efficent but they also divert food production to produce ethanol which is rather stupid when we couldve been using that to feed our cattle to get even more cheap steaks :-DD
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I think VW's quality has been on the decline for a while. Circumstantial example:
My Dad had company cars for 12 years before he retired two years ago. He chose mid spec VW Golf TDIs, and got a new one every 3 years. He said that whilst still good cars, each one wasn't as good as the last. They just felt cheaper and less solid on the road, and the interiors seemed to get more and more plasticky.
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Maybe I need a horse. Cheaper to run and probably will last longer. Comes with 4WD standard too :)
You won't find much horse refueling stations anymore. They're about as rare as electric car charging points.
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Maybe I need a horse. Cheaper to run and probably will last longer. Comes with 4WD standard too :)
You won't find much horse refueling stations anymore. They're about as rare as electric car charging points.
Just use any convienient grassy verge :)
Refuling times tends to be a bit longer than with internal combustion engines though.
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Whilst the internal combustion engine might be quite polluting, it came about just in time to prevent London and other major cities disappearing underneath mountains of horse shit. (make your own jokes there...!)
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I believe the average speed of traffic in London is no faster than the days of horse and cart too.
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I believe the average speed of traffic in London is no faster than the days of horse and cart too.
Much fewer road deaths though. In raw numbers too not per capita. Even with modern healthcare horses are still the most dangerous form of legal road transport.
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I see a lot of people driving places they could be walking, saves energy, is healthy and gets you out and away from all those distractions for a while.
Speaking of which...
I have to get ready to walk to the mailbox. (an eight mile round trip)
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Having had horses all my life I can say with some certainty that the emission problem from horses is far worse than that of cars. The Victorians had major pollution problems in London from horse particulates emissions on the roads. With the number of horses that would be required now the pollution would be far worse. They also of course emit CO2 and methane gas along with cyanide and a whole host of other gases. :-DD
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Speaking of which...
I have to get ready to walk to the mailbox. (an eight mile round trip)
Bicycle?
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Saying that much industry in pre-war Germany was financed by Americans, many of whom were Jewish, is accurate and historical. Saying it was created with American Jew money is a pejorative viewpoint that implies motives that require much more documentation.
Saying my quote containing the word Jew is pejorative, is your personal biased viewpoint.
Maybe I have to start being a Jew, to get the permission to use that word.
Henry Ford was a pretty virulent anti-Semite.
And, generally those who use the word "Jew" as pejorative are, how shall we say, generally like Henry Ford in viewpoint.
No, you cannot have permission to use the word that way.
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Saying that much industry in pre-war Germany was financed by Americans, many of whom were Jewish, is accurate and historical. Saying it was created with American Jew money is a pejorative viewpoint that implies motives that require much more documentation.
Saying my quote containing the word Jew is pejorative, is your personal biased viewpoint.
Maybe I have to start being a Jew, to get the permission to use that word.
Another one has escaped.
Indeed.
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How the crap did it happen that the discussion turned in this direction?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
It's really saddening :-[
Godwin? Any relation to Goebbles?
No, none at all. Michael Godwin is indeed a real person, a lawyer (he was with the Electronic Frontier Foundation at its start) who lives in Maryland, and most definitely he is not a Nazi.
It's a self fulfilling prophecy, the Godman minions make sure to derail the threads with Godman references.
I have no idea what that means.
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And, generally those who use the word "Jew" as pejorative are, how shall we say, generally like Henry Ford in viewpoint.
I think it's a regional thing. We don't use it in that context, just like our use of "paki" which so offends the Brits is used in a totally different context to that which offends them so.
It's pretty hard to try and enforce your viewpoint globally so it's best not to try and just toughen up.
My neighbors are Jew's. A joke for you directly from them.
4 middle aged Jewish women are just finishing up morning tea at a restaurant, and the waitress comes over and says "morning ladies, was anything right this morning?".
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For diesel engines so equipped, what is the approximate consumption rate of urea?
How many milliliters per litre of fuel?
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For diesel engines so equipped, what is the approximate consumption rate of urea?
How many milliliters per litre of fuel?
A quick search shows anywhere between 2 & 8 %, so between 20 & 80ml /L
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VW cheated, owned up (after they were caught) and will pay a heavy price. But the US government lied about, kidnapped, tortured and illegally imprisoned innocent people in their Guantanamo Bay concentration camp. The government makes itself immune to prosecution for crimes regarding Guantanamo Bay and is answerable to nobody. No penalties, no compensation and no justice. Obama promised to close the joint in 2008... he FAILED miserably. Lets get things into perspective. The crime VW committed pales into insignificance in comparison to war crimes by the US government.
One world, two standards.
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VW got caught, or were done in because some other manufacturer whispered a few words. Going to bite all the manufacturers though, as it is likely the EPA will be redoing ( at the car companies expense) all certifications that they have. Going to hurt all of them for sure, and likely will result in a lot of US certified vehicles no longer being saleable in the USA any more, and which likely will scupper the US motor industry from it's intended attempt to have the ( very lax) US standards from being accepted in the EU. A lot of EU vehicles cannot be made to meet the US DOT lighting spec, simply because they control the light beam so tightly in the EU while the US wants a specified minimum at the edges, never mind the glare.
My guess on the firmware is some MBA manager ( who is no longer there but got a bonus for making the emissions fit the tests on a report headline, but buried the actual methodology deep in a subsidary expanded report that likely was filed and forgotten deep in an archive) did this and then the rest simply trusted that figure and the firmware, only adapting it for a particular engine state slightly, never looking at the full code.
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VW cheated, owned up (after they were caught) and will pay a heavy price. But the US government lied about, kidnapped, tortured and illegally imprisoned innocent people in their Guantanamo Bay concentration camp. The government makes itself immune to prosecution for crimes regarding Guantanamo Bay and is answerable to nobody. No penalties, no compensation and no justice. Obama promised to close the joint in 2008... he FAILED miserably. Lets get things into perspective. The crime VW committed pales into insignificance in comparison to war crimes by the US government.
One world, two standards.
What in the name of feck has that got to do with VW Desiel engines?
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Guantanomo is nothing compared to the 404 murders per year by VW alone (http://www.vox.com/2015/9/23/9383641/volkswagen-scandal-pollution). And we all thought the cynical Ford Pinto memo was bad?
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And, generally those who use the word "Jew" as pejorative are, how shall we say, generally like Henry Ford in viewpoint.
No, you cannot have permission to use the word that way.
You are a racist.
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VW cheated, owned up (after they were caught) and will pay a heavy price. But the US government lied about, kidnapped, tortured and illegally imprisoned innocent people in their Guantanamo Bay concentration camp. The government makes itself immune to prosecution for crimes regarding Guantanamo Bay and is answerable to nobody. No penalties, no compensation and no justice. Obama promised to close the joint in 2008... he FAILED miserably. Lets get things into perspective. The crime VW committed pales into insignificance in comparison to war crimes by the US government.
One world, two standards.
What in the name of feck has that got to do with VW Desiel engines?
That the guys who complain about a car manifacturer's messed up numbers, are war criminals who belong in jail.
What was the reason those hundreds of officials who knew about it all these years, did shut up till september 2015?
What was the reason that this thing is being brought to the media now?
Some politicians that no longer do what the others want? Some money flowing to somewhere else suddenly?
It always comes down to that.
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And, generally those who use the word "Jew" as pejorative are, how shall we say, generally like Henry Ford in viewpoint.
No, you cannot have permission to use the word that way.
You are a racist.
::)
This place is seriously overrun with idiots of late.
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Guantanomo is nothing compared to the 404 murders per year by VW alone (http://www.vox.com/2015/9/23/9383641/volkswagen-scandal-pollution). And we all thought the cynical Ford Pinto memo was bad?
Oh come on, this is insane nonsense. The US ignored and prevented international treaties to reduce pollution for centuries, Coal Rollers are still legal in several states and now someone makes up some numbers from thin air to claim hundreds of deaths?
I mean, this doesn't come unexpected and I expect to see coughing children in the coming up civil lawsuits, but just because the US legal system is sick to the bone doesn't mean the discussion about a technical topic has to be done in the same way and take fishy claims as proven facts.
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Guantanomo is nothing compared to the 404 murders per year by VW alone (http://www.vox.com/2015/9/23/9383641/volkswagen-scandal-pollution). And we all thought the cynical Ford Pinto memo was bad?
Oh come on, this is insane nonsense. The US ignored and prevented international treaties to reduce pollution for centuries, Coal Rollers are still legal in several states and now someone makes up some numbers from thin air to claim hundreds of deaths?
I mean, this doesn't come unexpected and I expect to see coughing children in the coming up civil lawsuits, but just because the US legal system is sick to the bone doesn't mean the discussion about a technical topic has to be done in the same way and take fishy claims as proven facts.
Welcome to the internet. Enjoy your stay...
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VW cheated, owned up (after they were caught) and will pay a heavy price. But the US government lied about, kidnapped, tortured and illegally imprisoned innocent people in their Guantanamo Bay concentration camp. The government makes itself immune to prosecution for crimes regarding Guantanamo Bay and is answerable to nobody. No penalties, no compensation and no justice. Obama promised to close the joint in 2008... he FAILED miserably. Lets get things into perspective. The crime VW committed pales into insignificance in comparison to war crimes by the US government.
One world, two standards.
+1 for sending the EPA administrator to Gitmo.
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As most of the engine management if not all is made by Bosch on VW's and quite likely the software that runs on it as well I have to wonder how many other makes of cars have the exact same systems.
I cannot see that Urea injection can be good for health either as it forms ammonia which is then pumped out of the exhaust system which has to be at least as harmful to breath as NOX.
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I cannot see that Urea injection can be good for health either as it forms ammonia which is then pumped out of the exhaust system which has to be at least as harmful to breath as NOX.
The Ammonia then reacts with the NOx in the catalyst to produce nitrogen and water.. so none of the ammonia escapes the tailpipe provided you haven't poisoned the catalyst with impure urea.
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Indeed. It usually means there is 1 guy without arguments, but still wants to be on top of the discussion.
No matter what.
There's an analogy in people that suddenly start using the "R" word, without specific motivation.
You are a racist.
Lol, sorry, couldn't resist.
Anyway, back on topic:
Of course VW are fraudsters but the idiots who designed the test should shoulder some of the responsibility. A more realistic test needs to be designed with an element of uncertainty. Fuel economy and emissions should be based on a test drive round a track which represents average driving conditions. Of course the results will vary depending on the weather but as long as they're comfortably within limits it would pass. Obviously it's not possible to test all cars in the manner. An automated test is still required but track testing a small random sample would stop cheating.
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I cannot see that Urea injection can be good for health either as it forms ammonia which is then pumped out of the exhaust system which has to be at least as harmful to breath as NOX.
The Ammonia then reacts with the NOx in the catalyst to produce nitrogen and water.. so none of the ammonia escapes the tailpipe provided you haven't poisoned the catalyst with impure urea.
Or impure fuel, you can never be sure somebody somewhere did not get some petrol in there, and there are still a lot of old refinery pipes and tank farm storage which has residual TE lead in it. Unleaded fuel actually is allowed to have a certain lead content, which can actually be higher than the lead content in lead replacement fuel, just from that. As diesel is stored in the same tanks, and is pumped through the same lines, it will also have the lead in it as a catalyst poison.
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"internal inquiry had found that parts supplier Bosch had warned Volkswagen not to use its software illegally"
Full article here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34373637 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34373637)
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Most cars are run such that the catalytic converters never get hot enough to work properly, so any urea injected can break down but the products will not get converted so you will not only have ammonia but isocyanic acid coming out of the exhaust.
It might be better to have heavy soot particles from the exhaust like the London buses in the 50's and 60's did but without the sulphur dioxide that they also emitted, but as most diesel is low sulphur these-days it should not be a problem just heavy soot that falls straight to the ground.
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Most cars are run such that the catalytic converters never get hot enough to work properly, so any urea injected can break down but the products will not get converted so you will not only have ammonia but isocyanic acid coming out of the exhaust.
The urea injection systems are controlled by the ECM. Is it inconceivable to suggest that this may only be engaged until the catalytic converter has sufficiently warmed up?
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Ugo Bardi has an interesting take on this. (http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-volkswagen-scandal-signal-that.html)
He points out that the discrepancy between standardized testing of autos versus real world results is well known and that this is a widespread issue and represents the diminishing returns of technology's ability to reduce ICE emissions.
This is, I think, what happened in this case. It is very well known that the results of the pollution tests made in the lab are always much better than those made on the road. And it is very well known that the performances of cars as measured in standardized tests are always much better than those of real cars. It is all very well known and documented: look for instance here and here. (h/t G.Meneghello).
So, if cheating is so diffuse, why was Volkswagen singled out in this scandal? Maybe they were doing something especially bad, but I would be surprised if they were to turn out to be the only ones using the trick they have been accused to use for hiding nitrogen oxide emissions. Besides, I am sure that, before doing what they did, they checked with their legal department and got some kind of green light: possibly reasoning that if it was not explicitly forbidden it was not illegal. Anyway, I leave to conspiracy theorists the obvious implications that could be derived from this story.
Rather, I would point out something that I learned in my work with the automotive industry. It is that the story of pollution abatement in internal combustion engines is a good example of the diminishing returns of technology. And not just that, it also illustrates very well how good intentions can easily conflict with reality and actually backfire.
It is a long and fascinating story that, here, I can just sketch it in its main lines (*). Anyway, the concept of "pollution" became popular in the 1970s and it quickly became clear that a major culprit were the emissions from car engines. That led to a major debate: some thought that it was necessary to get rid of internal combustion engines and replace them with electric motors, others that it was possible to reduce pollution from engines to acceptable levels. The latter position won (do you remember the "who killed the electric car" movie?) and that led to a long series of legislative actions, especially in Europe, aimed at the development of less polluting and more efficient engines. On the whole, the results appear to be good (see, e.g. here).
However, what the Volkswagen scandal tells us is that, likely, most of the recent improvements may have been obtained, if not by cheating, at least by a creative interpretation of the rules. An especially telling point, here, has to do with the specific point that led to incriminate Volkswagen: the abatement of nitrous oxides. The problem is especially nasty because it arises from conflicting needs. One is of having low pollution, the other high mileage. To have high mileage, you need to increase the efficiency of the engine, and this can be done using diesel engine instead of the conventional gasoline engines. Diesel engines work at higher temperatures and pressures, and that makes them more efficient. But that makes them also produce more nitrous oxides. It has to do with the thermodynamics of combustion and you should know that if you try to fight thermodynamics, thermodynamics always wins. The problem is basically unsolvable, at least at costs compatible with the price of a normal car. And when you face an unsolvable problem, often the reaction may be to cheat. This is, evidently, what happened with the automotive industry and the results have been exposed by the Volkswagen scandal.
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Most cars run under 5km per trip, or idle for long periods in traffic. That is where you get the major advantage of electric, hybrid or even start/stop motion control of the engine. Only on a longer trip over around 20km will a diesel have run long enough to do a DPF or NOx filter cycle. Many set a service code regularly just because they never get to operating temperature for hundreds of start cycles. Cure is a 50km drive on a freeway. Luckily I can do that regularly on the TDI work van.
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The problem is basically unsolvable, at least at costs compatible with the price of a normal car. And when you face an unsolvable problem, often the reaction may be to cheat. This is, evidently, what happened with the automotive industry and the results have been exposed by the Volkswagen scandal.
This is what I have been thinking all along. It would be a bit like life imitating art (see Kobayashi Maru, for example).
Or like legislating that pi = 3.0000...
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VW got caught, or were done in because some other manufacturer whispered a few words. Going to bite all the manufacturers though, as it is likely the EPA will be redoing ( at the car companies expense) all certifications that they have.
I am pretty sure that most manufacturers are actually cheating the same way because the regulations are just unrealistic for current times (because politicians HAD to impose stricter regulations to be recognised by the public as "doing something for the environment" as that's so hawt these days, so passed regulations even if they are actually technologically and/or economically unrealistic so nobody but maybe the luxury manufacturers can have a chance of following them).
So redoing all certifications would be interesting in that nobody at all would pass them, and the politicians would end up looking as dorks... of course they won't let that happen, so they'll just be the next ones to cheat, hide the results and say that "everything was somehow actually OK".
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Cat manufacturers are actually pushing the legislators in EU to i pose more strict regulations, as this gives them a good reason the design more complex systems which are even harder and more expensive to repair. DPFs are a good example.
Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk
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Ugo Bardi has an interesting take on this. (http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/2015/09/the-volkswagen-scandal-signal-that.html)
He points out that the discrepancy between standardized testing of autos versus real world results is well known and that this is a widespread issue and represents the diminishing returns of technology's ability to reduce ICE emissions.
What a bunch of unsupported assertions!
So, if cheating is so diffuse, why was Volkswagen singled out in this scandal? Maybe they were doing something especially bad
Yes, they were doing something especially bad. If any other maker was doing this, they would have come forward by now, since they know that all diesels are going to be retested. BMW has already said they were not cheating.
I am sure that, before doing what they did, they checked with their legal department and got some kind of green light: possibly reasoning that if it was not explicitly forbidden it was not illegal.
If they thought it was legal, why would they now admit guilt? It makes no sense.
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If they thought it was legal, why would they now admit guilt? It makes no sense.
You can't fight the government or public opinion. If you are going to be convicted no matter what, it is best to admit guilt and seek a plea bargain.
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If they thought it was legal, why would they now admit guilt? It makes no sense.
You can't fight the government or public opinion. If you are going to be convicted no matter what, it is best to admit guilt and seek a plea bargain.
I think it is worse than that.
The US legal system has something that is called punitive damages, if it can be proven, that the damage was done on purpose.
For VW to admit that it was done on purpose has opened this route of legal way.
And punitive damages have no upper limit of how high the punishment can be.
Suddenly 18 billion might be a bargain.
Essentially this could mean the end of VW.
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If they thought it was legal, why would they now admit guilt? It makes no sense.
You can't fight the government or public opinion. If you are going to be convicted no matter what, it is best to admit guilt and seek a plea bargain.
I think it is worse than that.
The US legal system has something that is called punitive damages, if it can be proven, that the damage was done on purpose.
For VW to admit that it was done on purpose has opened this route of legal way.
And punitive damages have no upper limit of how high the punishment can be.
Suddenly 18 billion might be a bargain.
Essentially this could mean the end of VW.
yeh, VW could probably pay 18 billion and I would think somewhat negotiable when politics get involved
but if every one that bought a diesel VW for the last 6 years sues for damages and wants a new car the sky is the limit
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What a bunch of unsupported assertions!
Yes, they were doing something especially bad. If any other maker was doing this, they would have come forward by now, since they know that all diesels are going to be retested. BMW has already said they were not cheating.
funny you say that AFTER I linked French national TV program showing PSA (Peugeot Citroen) cars exceeding norms by the same order of magnitude as vw.
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"internal inquiry had found that parts supplier Bosch had warned Volkswagen not to use its software illegally"
Full article here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34373637 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34373637)
Bosch: Here you go VW, that batch of ECUs you ordered. Now please understand the special mode which reduces emissions under certain test parameters is only to be used for internal company testing.
VW (with fingers crossed behind its back): Gee, thanks Bosch, of course we'll be good.
Yeah, right
Unless Bosch had things carefully documented this one may come home to roost with them, even if they can wriggle out on a technicality it seems likely they knew exactly what was going on.
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Most cars run under 5km per trip, or idle for long periods in traffic. That is where you get the major advantage of electric, hybrid or even start/stop motion control of the engine. Only on a longer trip over around 20km will a diesel have run long enough to do a DPF or NOx filter cycle. Many set a service code regularly just because they never get to operating temperature for hundreds of start cycles. Cure is a 50km drive on a freeway. Luckily I can do that regularly on the TDI work van.
That is what used to be called an Italian tune up.
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If they thought it was legal, why would they now admit guilt? It makes no sense.
Admit guilt, excuses, public mea culpa and a medatisated-resignation are powerful shortcuts to business-as-usual.
It also gives the guys who simultaneously are covering up the rest of the fraud a better environment to work in the shadow.
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... I linked French national TV program showing PSA (Peugeot Citroen) cars exceeding norms by the same order of magnitude as vw.
USA chose to put the attention on only 1 major German brand.
The rest of the story will go on on different levels.
-Some tech-guys discussing some numbers. whatever. Let them write some report.
-USA<>Germany top politics. Other items will be discussed also.
-How to keep 'wanted' stories in the media, how to keep 'unwanted' out.
-
I think it is worse than that.
The US legal system has something that is called punitive damages, if it can be proven, that the damage was done on purpose.
For VW to admit that it was done on purpose has opened this route of legal way.
And punitive damages have no upper limit of how high the punishment can be.
Suddenly 18 billion might be a bargain.
Essentially this could mean the end of VW.
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/theres-no-way-volkswagen-is-going-to-pay-the-us-18-billion-in-fines-for-cheating-on-emissions-tests-2015-9 (http://www.businessinsider.com.au/theres-no-way-volkswagen-is-going-to-pay-the-us-18-billion-in-fines-for-cheating-on-emissions-tests-2015-9)
Maybe the US government should waive the fine, as settlement of the account for the US government hacking into Angela Merkel's private phone calls.
I remember IBM's Deskstar hard disk drive (nicknamed "Deathstar"), named by PC World has one of the 25 worst tech products of all time. Despite just selling their lemon hard disk business to Hitachi, IBM compensated each iof its US victims with a cheque for $100. Non-US buyers were offered nothing by IBM, not even an apology.
It could be the same with VW. US buyers might get some compensation and the rest might be left to fend for themselves, the IBM way.
-
All car manufacturers do this. Intentionally or not. When emissions are measured, the engine is idling so of course it pollutes less than under normal driving conditions. Plus the ECU probably does something to decrease consumption while idle, and that also decreases pollution.
This is a classic rip off, or more precise theft. And I mean USA is stealing money from VW to put pressure on German economy.
And I am not defending VW. I actually hate German cars. They are overrated and unreliable, especially compared to Japanese cars.
-
All car manufacturers do this. Intentionally or not. When emissions are measured, the engine is idling so of course it pollutes less than under normal driving conditions. Plus the ECU probably does something to decrease consumption while idle, and that also decreases pollution.
This is a classic rip off, or more precise theft. And I mean USA is stealing money from VW to put pressure on German economy.
And I am not defending VW. I actually hate German cars. They are overrated and unreliable, especially compared to Japanese cars.
erm, no.
Emissions might be tested with no load during annual testing (the MOT test in the UK for example), when the authorities are doing approval testing and engine or car will be on a dyno.
-
And we got numbers from Audi: 2.1 million cars worldwide (Germany: 577000, USA: 13000)
-
All car manufacturers do this. Intentionally or not. When emissions are measured, the engine is idling so of course it pollutes less than under normal driving conditions. Plus the ECU probably does something to decrease consumption while idle, and that also decreases pollution.
This is a classic rip off, or more precise theft. And I mean USA is stealing money from VW to put pressure on German economy.
And I am not defending VW. I actually hate German cars. They are overrated and unreliable, especially compared to Japanese cars.
erm, no.
Emissions might be tested with no load during annual testing (the MOT test in the UK for example), when the authorities are doing approval testing and engine or car will be on a dyno.
How does a car know when is on a dyno, so it activates low consumption/emission mode?
-
Cat manufacturers are actually pushing the legislators in EU to i pose more strict regulations, as this gives them a good reason the design more complex systems which are even harder and more expensive to repair. DPFs are a good example.
That could become a warranty nightmare.
-
How does a car know when is on a dyno, so it activates low consumption/emission mode?
That particular function is Bosch intellectual property. It's for internal testing purposes only of course. :-DD
-
How does a car know when is on a dyno, so it activates low consumption/emission mode?
The test obviously has to be a pretty well controlled standardized procedure, so it just needs to recognise the matching usage pattern.
-
How does a car know when is on a dyno, so it activates low consumption/emission mode?
That is actually not too difficult
If you accelerate the car on a dyno, the engine will speed up but the acceleration sensor will not notice a forward motion.
Two wheels are rolling and two wheels are standing still, while on the dyno, so wheel sensors are not producing expected signals.
And many other possibilities and combinations.
-
Exactly how you can test the brakes (for an MOT in the UK for instance)! The ABS/Stability knows when it's being tested on a roller so allows an individual wheel to lock!
-
Exactly how you can test the brakes (for an MOT in the UK for instance)! The ABS/Stability knows when it's being tested on a roller so allows an individual wheel to lock!
Erm, no. The ABS will allow the wheels to lock below a certain speed, otherwise you would never come to a stop!
If the tester just stamps on the brakes whilst the rollers are running, the wheels WILL lock, just as if the car was on the road.
As for a firmware detecting when its on a dyno, as has been mentioned:
Driven wheels turning, other wheels stationary (info from ABS sensors).
No vehicle movement (info from accelerometers in stability system).
No steering inputs (power steering system sensors).
Bonnet or doors open.
Speed / RPM exactly at specified points for a duration of time.
These are just the very basic methods, I'm sure Bosch firmware programmers could come up with some pretty complex algorithms!
I'd like the authorities to add some variance to the test specs in order to make it much more difficult to detect the test conditions.
-
Erm, no. The ABS will allow the wheels to lock below a certain speed, otherwise you would never come to a stop!
If the tester just stamps on the brakes whilst the rollers are running, the wheels WILL lock, just as if the car was on the road.
Reminds me of an argument I had with someone about "frictionless" tires. It took an age to explain that some amount of friction was required else the car would spin on the spot...
-
:palm:
-
:palm:
Exactly
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=55400.0;attach=173487;image)
And this will in no way be the end of this matter, I'd suspect it's endemic in the auto industry becasuse it's was so easy to pull off.
-
:palm:
But to be fair, that is just plant food gas, so some local tomatoes will grow better. The shitty diesel is a carcinogen.
-
How does a car know when is on a dyno, so it activates low consumption/emission mode?
private bool AmIBeingDyoned(bool tiresSpinning, double stabilityControlGSensorData)
{
if (this.tiresSpinning && (this.stabilityControlGSensorData <= 0.1)
{
return true;
}
else
return false;
}
-
private bool AmIBeingDyoned(bool tiresSpinning, double stabilityControlGSensorData)
{
If (this.tiresSpinning && (this.stabilityControlGSensorData <= 0.1)
{
Return True;
}
Else
Return False;
}
Nicely done, you just solved the emissions problem anytime the vehicle is driven at a constant speed :)
-
private bool AmIBeingDyoned(bool tiresSpinning, double stabilityControlGSensorData)
{
If (this.tiresSpinning && (this.stabilityControlGSensorData <= 0.1)
{
Return True;
}
Else
Return False;
}
Nicely done, you just solved the emissions problem anytime the vehicle is driven at a constant speed :)
Yeah shortly after writing that, I thought about engine load should play a part in it too.
Maybe
if (somethingUpMyTailPipe)
{
return true;
}
else
return false;
-
:palm:
Exactly
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/vw-firmware-engineers-morally-bankrupt/?action=dlattach;attach=173486;image)
Your graph is cut at 60%, so we can't see that Tesla stands at position 100%.
-
Your graph is cut at 60%, so we can't see that Tesla stands at position 100%.
:palm:
Exactly
Tesla cheat so blatantly they don't even provide an exhaust pipe for the tester to shove his probe up! :-DD
-
I get pissed off every time I hear about CO2! It has nothing to do with actual pollution (how about you actually look at cancerogenus exhaust gases from those "low CO2" "clean" diesel engines?), and vast majority of "greenhouse gases" are produced naturally (cars are negligible here).
-
I get pissed off every time I hear about CO2!
That's good.
The fear of catastrophic AGW is wearing off.
-
:palm:
Exactly
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/vw-firmware-engineers-morally-bankrupt/?action=dlattach;attach=173486;image)
Your graph is cut at 60%, so we can't see that Tesla stands at position 100%.
Well with the Tesla, it depends on where it's been charged, the time of day, season etc.
I get pissed off every time I hear about CO2! It has nothing to do with actual pollution (how about you actually look at cancerogenus exhaust gases from those "low CO2" "clean" diesel engines?), and vast majority of "greenhouse gases" are produced naturally (cars are negligible here).
Yes, on a small scale, the carcinogenic compounds emitted by cars are more of a problem.
However, CO2 is important on a global scale. Even though the CO2 emissions from cars is less than that from natural resources. It still adds up. The ecosystem is has evolved to absorb no more CO2 than it emits. The extra CO2 emitted by cars, power plants, etc. accumulates, causing an increase in the greenhouse effect.
-
I'm just off to deliberately pollute some fresh water with some CO2 from a nefarious device manufactured in Israel by the evil zionist conspirators. I will then add some flavoured syrup to disguise the foul taste of the poison and proceed to drink a bottle of it. I'm pretty sure most of the dangerous gas will be emitted into the atmosphere in the form of burps.
-
I'm pretty sure most of the dangerous gas will be emitted into the atmosphere in the form of burps.
It's the other end you have to worry about.
-
I'm pretty sure most of the dangerous gas will be emitted into the atmosphere in the form of burps.
It's the other end you have to worry about.
This why the Australian kill their camels
http://planetsave.com/2011/08/03/australias-solution-to-global-warming-kill-farting-camels/ (http://planetsave.com/2011/08/03/australias-solution-to-global-warming-kill-farting-camels/)
-
This why the Australian kill their camels
http://planetsave.com/2011/08/03/australias-solution-to-global-warming-kill-farting-camels/ (http://planetsave.com/2011/08/03/australias-solution-to-global-warming-kill-farting-camels/)
It's my excuse for eating as much steak as I do. That methane is nasty stuff when not burned.
-
I'm just off to deliberately pollute some fresh water with some CO2 from a nefarious device manufactured in Israel by the evil zionist conspirators. I will then add some flavoured syrup to disguise the foul taste of the poison and proceed to drink a bottle of it. I'm pretty sure most of the dangerous gas will be emitted into the atmosphere in the form of burps.
Do not confuse the lack of toxicity of a substance with the impact of releasing large amounts of it into the environment. Another example is milk, which I put on my cereal, but discharging large quantities of it into the lakes and rivers kills fish.
I'm pretty sure most of the dangerous gas will be emitted into the atmosphere in the form of burps.
It's the other end you have to worry about.
This why the Australian kill their camels
http://planetsave.com/2011/08/03/australias-solution-to-global-warming-kill-farting-camels/ (http://planetsave.com/2011/08/03/australias-solution-to-global-warming-kill-farting-camels/)
Which is nonsense, considering the carbon emitted by camels only comes from the vegetation they eat (not fossil fuels) and is fertilised by their crap. Taking all the cars off the road would have a far greater impact.
-
Which is nonsense, considering the carbon emitted by camels only comes from the vegetation they eat (not fossil fuels) and is fertilised by their crap. Taking all the cars off the road would have a far greater impact.
The problem with cattle, and I'm guessing camels in this case, isn't the carbon per se, but the methane. It's up to 100 times better at trapping heat than CO2. Same amount of carbon, much bigger effect.
-
Taking all the cars off the road would have a far greater impact.
I think we all agree with that, but for different impacts.
-
I'm just off to deliberately pollute some fresh water with some CO2 from a nefarious device manufactured in Israel by the evil zionist conspirators. I will then add some flavoured syrup to disguise the foul taste of the poison and proceed to drink a bottle of it. I'm pretty sure most of the dangerous gas will be emitted into the atmosphere in the form of burps.
throw in some corn syrup , preferrably from a monsanto GMO for bonus 'evil' points. Market it in white font on bold red background. Use a jolly geratric fat man in red costume with an unkempt white beard who whips poor reindeer puling a wheel-less cart( for extra friction) in the bitter cold...
-
throw in some corn syrup , preferrably from a monsanto GMO for bonus 'evil' points. Market it in white font on bold red background. Use a jolly geratric fat man in red costume with an unkempt white beard who whips poor reindeer puling a wheel-less cart( for extra friction) in the bitter cold...
I've been wondering how to DIY the secret coca-cola recipe for my Soda Stream. I need some Monsanto GMO HFCS you say? But then it would taste like murkin coke (bleurgh). Refined sugar from Her Majesties West Indian colonies for me thanks. :-+
-
Which is nonsense, considering the carbon emitted by camels only comes from the vegetation they eat (not fossil fuels) and is fertilised by their crap. Taking all the cars off the road would have a far greater impact.
The problem with cattle, and I'm guessing camels in this case, isn't the carbon per se, but the methane. It's up to 100 times better at trapping heat than CO2. Same amount of carbon, much bigger effect.
cows will fart the stars out of the night sky ! :-DD
-
cows will fart the stars out of the night sky ! :-DD
With how their digestive system works it mainly comes out of the mouth end, but lol
-
Which is nonsense, considering the carbon emitted by camels only comes from the vegetation they eat (not fossil fuels) and is fertilised by their crap. Taking all the cars off the road would have a far greater impact.
The problem with cattle, and I'm guessing camels in this case, isn't the carbon per se, but the methane. It's up to 100 times better at trapping heat than CO2. Same amount of carbon, much bigger effect.
cows will fart the stars out of the night sky ! :-DD
So one solution is to strap solar powered Methane sensors and Piezo ignition systems to the arses of Camels.
;)
-
The ecosystem is has evolved to absorb no more CO2 than it emits.
No. There is not natural balance. Before the industrial revolution the CO2 levels where around 220ppm. This is close to the level where plant life gets limited. Over the past approx. 400k years CO2 levels have been fluctuating a lot in approx. 40k year cycles. The start of the industrial revolution happens when there is also a natural spike in CO2 levels due to the 40k year cycle so there is a double effect. There is an upside: at the current higher levels plants have it much easier and need less water. Exactly what we need to grow more crops. And what if the sea levels rise? This rise will happen so slow that there is more than enough time to relocate people and property and/or build dams.
-
Comically named VW board member Olaf Lies: "Those people who allowed this to happen, or who made the decision to install this software - they acted criminally. They must take personal responsibility."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34397426 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34397426)
-
The problem with cattle, and I'm guessing camels in this case, isn't the carbon per se, but the methane. It's up to 100 times better at trapping heat than CO2. Same amount of carbon, much bigger effect.
Don't plants give of methane when they biodegrade, irrespective of whether it's because they've been eaten by an animal or just die naturally?
Suppose if you are right, the camels are producing more methane than there would be without them, so we kill all the camels. Now what is going to happen to all the carbon trapped in their carcasses when they decompose?
No. There is not natural balance. Before the industrial revolution the CO2 levels where around 220ppm. This is close to the level where plant life gets limited. Over the past approx. 400k years CO2 levels have been fluctuating a lot in approx. 40k year cycles. The start of the industrial revolution happens when there is also a natural spike in CO2 levels due to the 40k year cycle so there is a double effect. There is an upside: at the current higher levels plants have it much easier and need less water. Exactly what we need to grow more crops. And what if the sea levels rise? This rise will happen so slow that there is more than enough time to relocate people and property and/or build dams.
The changes in the ratio of carbon isotopes in the atmosphere proves the increase is due to burning fossil fuels, rather than natural sources.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/anthrocarbon-brief.html#c14 (http://www.skepticalscience.com/anthrocarbon-brief.html#c14)
-
Perhaps, but surely the "artificial evil man made" carbon dioxide vs "natural earth mother godess treehugger pretty flora and fluffy fauna" carbon dioxide is all from the same source. Volcanoes spew out shitloads of broken down dinosaurs all the time. Perhaps us terrible guilt ridden human animals are actually stopping volcanoes going off due to relieving pressure by sucking up the old carbonised fossils from under them?
Maybe we would be in an even warmer climate change position without our intervention?
-
In my understanding (which is pretty poor), it's the RATE at which we are releasing carbon dioxide in to the atmosphere that is the issue.
In my simplistic understanding, carbon that was absorbed over millions of years and got trapped underground, is getting released in a few hundered. Now that's going to throw any feedback loop out of regulation!
-
So one solution is to strap solar powered Methane sensors and Piezo ignition systems to the arses of Camels.
Put them on roller skates and you've solved the transport problem.
-
In my understanding (which is pretty poor), it's the RATE at which we are releasing carbon dioxide in to the atmosphere that is the issue.
In my simplistic understanding, carbon that was absorbed over millions of years and got trapped underground, is getting released in a few hundered. Now that's going to throw any feedback loop out of regulation!
Yes, but you are ignoring my new genius revelation that all we are doing is recycling natural dino deposits before the volcanoes go and violently spew them out after pressure builds up, killing millions of us (and fluffy animals, plants, and fishes too) in the process.
ETA: ... and after the violent earthquakes, magma, etc, releasing a fuckload more into the atmos in one go than all of us earthdwellers combined manage in a hundred years.
-
Outgoing Volkswagen CEO’s exit package could top $67 million
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09/24/outgoing-volkswagen-ceos-exit-package-could-top-67-million/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09/24/outgoing-volkswagen-ceos-exit-package-could-top-67-million/)
Poor diddums. :'(
-
I get pissed off every time I hear about CO2! It has nothing to do with actual pollution (how about you actually look at cancerogenus exhaust gases from those "low CO2" "clean" diesel engines?), and vast majority of "greenhouse gases" are produced naturally (cars are negligible here).
Taxation industry was searching some expansion, and therefore needed to build a new moral logic to push to the masses.
By definition, it had to be an easy to pronounce term, associated with a simple linear number with more=better or more=less.
This way, all the outsiders like journalists, politicians, subsidy give/takers, TVlookers could be lined up.
It really worked well till 2015, when they ran out of other people's money.
-
Outgoing Volkswagen CEO’s exit package could top $67 million
...
Poor diddums. :'(
In the mean time, some "investigations" are done in VW factories.
How about the investigations to be done in all govt administrations that lazyly accepted the reports?
4 students showed there was something wrong, an all of the thousand officals with milliondollar tax-based division saw nothing?
Who is the real criminal here? Those guys are morally bankrupt.
-
No. There is not natural balance. Before the industrial revolution the CO2 levels where around 220ppm. This is close to the level where plant life gets limited. Over the past approx. 400k years CO2 levels have been fluctuating a lot in approx. 40k year cycles. The start of the industrial revolution happens when there is also a natural spike in CO2 levels due to the 40k year cycle so there is a double effect. There is an upside: at the current higher levels plants have it much easier and need less water. Exactly what we need to grow more crops. And what if the sea levels rise? This rise will happen so slow that there is more than enough time to relocate people and property and/or build dams.
The changes in the ratio of carbon isotopes in the atmosphere proves the increase is due to burning fossil fuels, rather than natural sources.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/anthrocarbon-brief.html#c14 (http://www.skepticalscience.com/anthrocarbon-brief.html#c14)
Before reading any graph you should check the scales! Its all promile, ppm and cut off to dramatise a very small change. If you look at the CO2 levels from ice drillings (google that) you'll notice the extremely sharp peaks occuring every 40k years. It is likely a lot of burried carbon/CO2 is somehow released into the atmosphere at those points in time. Perhaps somebody bothered to figure out what caused these peaks so ask Google.
-
Outgoing Volkswagen CEO’s exit package could top $67 million
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09/24/outgoing-volkswagen-ceos-exit-package-could-top-67-million/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09/24/outgoing-volkswagen-ceos-exit-package-could-top-67-million/)
Poor diddums. :'(
Yeah, but he won't be travelling to the US anytime soon, and you can bet he'll be checking with lawyers before he leaves Germany...
Somebody pretty senior made the decision to run with the "defeat device" code, and I bet they covered their arse(s) by flagging it high up in VW.
-
Outgoing Volkswagen CEO’s exit package could top $67 million
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09/24/outgoing-volkswagen-ceos-exit-package-could-top-67-million/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2015/09/24/outgoing-volkswagen-ceos-exit-package-could-top-67-million/)
Poor diddums. :'(
Yeah, but he won't be travelling to the US anytime soon, and you can bet he'll be checking with lawyers before he leaves Germany...
Somebody pretty senior made the decision to run with the "defeat device" code, and I bet they covered their arse(s) by flagging it high up in VW.
FWIW a criminal investigation has been launched by German authorities against the former CEO. So I don't think he is that safe staying in there either.
-
It's not like he a dangerous murderer. They won't jail him. It's an economic offense.
If however they discover any tinkering with any safety features, then things change.
-
If any one person is more responsible for the rise of CO2 than any other my vote will go to Andreas Stihl. Without his invention the rain forests would not be disappearing at the rate they are.
-
It's not like he a dangerous murderer. They won't jail him. It's an economic offense.
If however they discover any tinkering with any safety features, then things change.
Fraud is a criminal offense, out of the dozen complaints one comes from Volkswagen itself.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/c0041274080b4f60bde781f9d4520e77/german-prosecutors-open-investigation-former-vw-boss (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/c0041274080b4f60bde781f9d4520e77/german-prosecutors-open-investigation-former-vw-boss)
The article states that Under German law, it is not possible to bring charges against a company, only against individuals.
-
Finally I found an article about the issue by someone with a little insight and understanding of the matter. Unfortunately only in German.
http://www.heise.de/autos/artikel/Der-vorlaeufige-Stand-der-Dinge-in-Sachen-Diesel-Stickoxide-und-Volkswagen-2832601.html (http://www.heise.de/autos/artikel/Der-vorlaeufige-Stand-der-Dinge-in-Sachen-Diesel-Stickoxide-und-Volkswagen-2832601.html)
-
(http://i.imgur.com/xJNofzL.jpg)
-
(http://i.imgur.com/xJNofzL.jpg)
You forgot to mention this is after the software fix.
-
If any one person is more responsible for the rise of CO2 than any other my vote will go to Andreas Stihl. Without his invention the rain forests would not be disappearing at the rate they are.
You don't know. Trees can be put down by solving the trunk with acid or other chemicals.
You forgot to mention this is after the software fix.
:-)
-
Topic: VW firmware engineers morally bankrupt??
reminder: please stick to thread topic
-
Outgoing Volkswagen CEO’s exit package could top $67 million
...
Poor diddums. :'(
In the mean time, some "investigations" are done in VW factories.
How about the investigations to be done in all govt administrations that lazyly accepted the reports?
4 students showed there was something wrong, an all of the thousand officals with milliondollar tax-based division saw nothing?
Who is the real criminal here? Those guys are morally bankrupt.
This is exactly right. Like I said before, the flippin EPA are put down as helpless victims because big bad VW fooled them. The EPA allowed this to happen, along with the enviro agencies in other countries. THEY, the EPA, should be investigated for probable gullibility. Shame on VW of course, but I'm much more concerned about them trusting the foxes in the hen house.
-
I wonder which presidential candidate VAG didn't
pay a big enough bribe to give a large enough campaign donation to to stop this been a problem?
-
Nox Nox,
Who's there ?
EPA
-
Nox Nox,
Who's there ?
EPA
:-DD :-DD really good one
-
Nox Nox,
Who's there ?
EPA
EPA who?
-
Nox Nox,
Who's there ?
EPA
So take the average NOx and CO2 emissions from the US grid and use that to compare with the emissions of a Tesla S with a similarly luxurious Diesel car. I get numbers within a factor of 2 of each other when taking real measured values for each example (not the reported standard test routines or best case). Electric cars have their place but they are not making wild (or even substantial) savings in pollution or energy consumption.
-
I wonder which presidential candidate VAG didn't pay a big enough bribe to give a large enough campaign donation to to stop this been a problem?
Don't under estimate the power of the bureaucracy.
-
True, VW could negotiate with the EPA and other agencies about cutting other emissions instead of modifying the vehicles in question so the consumers won't have to suffer in performance.
Fixing it and getting the same fuel economy/performance is probably impossible to do at this stage on those engines.
-
As expected there are much more commercial cheaters: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/01/samsung-tvs-appear-more-energy-efficient-in-tests-than-in-real-life (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/01/samsung-tvs-appear-more-energy-efficient-in-tests-than-in-real-life). A German news site has more technical details: http://heise.de/-2836104 (http://heise.de/-2836104) (German only). The measurement of the power consumption is done while playing a specific IEC test video. You can guess the rest ;)
-
Scenario 1:
So you've got a 5 year old VW group vehicle, and you take it into the dealer for a 'firmware' upgrade/update. A week later *something* goes wrong with your engine.
Even if the failure appears unrelated - is the fact that VW tinkered with your engine is going to open them up to a claim?? They are going to at least have to swallow the cost of diagnosis??
Scenario 2:
You take your (just out of warranty) VW group diesel into the dealer for the upgrade/update. When it comes back you find that you are getting poorer mileage, or your servicing costs have risen (increased use of Adblue, shorter lifetime on filters, etc...)
Have you got a legitimate claim against VW to compensate you for your present AND future losses?
If this is a few isolated cases, then there won't be any significant reputational damage, but there is likely to be hundreds of thousands of examples of this happening (& what happens when the "claims management" companies figure this out).
This could go on for many many years, and there are so many different scenarios where you could have a legitimate claim against VW group in so many countries with differing legal systems.
I'm beginning to think that this could kill VW group in it's present incarnation, especially with the potential anti-diesel legislation in EU.
-
If this is a few isolated cases, then there won't be any significant reputational damage, but there is likely to be hundreds of thousands of examples of this happening (& what happens when the "claims management" companies figure this out).
In the NL the importer of VW has already received a collective claim which could potentially run up to several billion euros :scared:.
-
I guess this will vary by country, but can anyone be forced to take their car in for "correction"?
Ring ring! "Hello?"
"Hi Mr Smith, VW here. can you bring your car down to the dealership so we can updated the firmware resulting in your car being slower and using more fuel...?"
Click.....
-
I guess this will vary by country, but can anyone be forced to take their car in for "correction"?
Ring ring! "Hello?"
"Hi Mr Smith, VW here. can you bring your car down to the dealership so we can updated the firmware resulting in your car being slower and using more fuel...?"
Click.....
"Hi Mr Smith, VW here - unless you want to pay the higher rate of (£400) annual Vehicle Excise Duty, you must have your car upgraded"
or
"Hi Mr Smith, do you know about the early days at the Kimberley Diamond Mines..... Please bring your car in for hobbling"
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tURhk-5mDpE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tURhk-5mDpE))
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True, VW could negotiate with the EPA and other agencies about cutting other emissions instead of modifying the vehicles in question so the consumers won't have to suffer in performance.
It's a bureaucracy running amok.
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/246423-supreme-court-overturns-epa-air-pollution-rule (http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/246423-supreme-court-overturns-epa-air-pollution-rule)
http://www.kpho.com/story/30067540/epa-fines-wy-farmer-37000-daily-over-pond (http://www.kpho.com/story/30067540/epa-fines-wy-farmer-37000-daily-over-pond)
http://dailysignal.com/2012/04/25/video-epa-official-compares-agency-enforcement-to-roman-crucifictions/ (http://dailysignal.com/2012/04/25/video-epa-official-compares-agency-enforcement-to-roman-crucifictions/)
EPA’s “philosophy of enforcement,” said EPA’s Region VI Administrator Al Armendariz, is “kind of like how the Romans used to conquer little villages in the Mediterranean: they’d go into little Turkish towns somewhere, they’d find the first five guys they’d run into, and they’d crucify them.”
“That town was really easy to manage for the next few years,” Armendariz added.
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Ah, but UK car tax is based on CO2 emitted per kM driven, not by NOx emissions! (I think I'm right there) So Mr Smith's car tax could go UP if he gets his car corrected!
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Ah, but UK car tax is based on CO2 emitted per kM driven, not by NOx emissions! (I think I'm right there) So Mr Smith's car tax could go UP if he gets his car corrected!
Correct.
And as the upgrade is likely to cause an increase in fuel consumption (and increase in CO2) it is very likely the cars will shift band.
Table here: https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables/rates-for-cars-registered-on-or-after-1-march-2001 (https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables/rates-for-cars-registered-on-or-after-1-march-2001)
As an example., if your car's CO2 emission go up by 5%, you might move from a BAND F (£145/year) to BAND G (£180/year), and lets say you argue that you might have the car for 10 more years. You would look for an absolute minimum of perhaps £350 compensation from VW.
The problem is that the UK has a habit of changing the rules every couple of years and the government are likely to do more to discourage you from emitting CO2, and will increase VED over time.
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Not to forget all the extra fuel duty the chancer of the exchequer will trouser, and then the extra 20% VAT on that obscene fuel duty. Hey waitaminute... instead of all these VED bands and complicated emissions testing, why not just include it in fuel duty? That can't be fiddled. You use the fuel, you pay at the pump. Simple... Oh no, that would lead to loads of public sector job for lifers in Swansea having to be found jobs elsewhere. Can't do that :palm:
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I guess this will vary by country, but can anyone be forced to take their car in for "correction"?
Sure, this was addressed earlier... in countries with emissions regulations, the authorities can refuse to allow the cars to be registered if they are not updated.
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I guess this will vary by country, but can anyone be forced to take their car in for "correction"?
Sure, this was addressed earlier... in countries with emissions regulations, the authorities can refuse to allow the cars to be registered if they are not updated.
Hmmmm, well in the UK we don't need to register our cars every year, but we do have get a Ministry of Transport test certificate. However I have NEVER heard of MOTs being refused based on not taking your car for a recall. I stand to be corrected on that, and I'm not saying it can't happen, but that would be a huge issue!
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True, VW could negotiate with the EPA and other agencies about cutting other emissions instead of modifying the vehicles in question so the consumers won't have to suffer in performance.
^^^ This!!!
Recalling the specific cars in question is probably the single worst possible way to address the problem. Yes, they may be worse than they should be for NOx emissions, but there's no way they're actually the most polluting vehicles that exist in the world.
Let's assume it costs, say, €2000 to recall a car and retro-fit the necessary modifications to make it compliant. Further assume that there's no detrimental effect on the car's performance or running costs, which cause it to no longer perform as advertised, and for which additional compensation would be due to the customer. The total benefit which that spending has achieved, is whatever reduction in emissions the modifications are able to offer.
Spend that same money on buying back and scrapping the oldest, most badly worn, worst polluting vehicles on the road, and surely the cost/benefit ratio must be higher? How could it not be higher?
Or how about a change in the future emissions levels that VW (uniquely) must meet? Suppose they're required to meet a level which is 1/2 the legal limit for all other manufacturers, for a period of 10 yrs from 2017 onward. That gives time to carry out the necessary design work, and results in the development of technology which can only be beneficial to the environment on an ongoing basis. Possible bonus: if customers actually care about low emissions, other manufacturers might also choose to follow suit voluntarily. Everybody wins.
Multiply thousands of €€€ by millions of cars, and that amount of money makes other options open up too. Does anyone know what it costs to build a modern, clean power station, which could allow an older, dirtier one to be shut down? Or how about the VW centre for clean engine technology... all IP generated therein to be released into the public domain for the good of all.
Actually recalling the affected cars is the sort of thing only a box-ticking bureaucrat could possibly think was a good idea. These cars exist, whether they should or not. We can now either throw a tantrum and insist they be fixed - whatever the cost/benefit and consequences - or deal with the problem intelligently.
Please, let's hope the recall isn't imposed by a politician, for no better reason than they want to "be seen to do..." something, or "send out a message that... " blah blah blah.
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^ that is probably a really good idea.
Here in states like Indiana, there are no emissions tests, no method to force the update anyhow. I know several people that have already commented that they would not return the vehicle for retrofit. Dealerships are not known for quality work, I for one have never paid for an oil change, or single vehicle repair, all maintenance/fixing done 100% by myself. My dad had the oil changed at a Ford dealer once, they drained the oil, left the plug out, no fresh oil, and drove it off the lift. Kept it running (with the oil light on) in a temp spot while my dad waited in line to pay, he noticed it when he got in to leave, :palm:
I was at a Pontiac dealer in the early 2000s to pick up a part, walked in the service door entrance to the parts counter. A mechanic there was holding a 6.5 diesel injector pump with the line side up smoking a cigarette, when I passed him an ash about 1" fell off right onto the fuel inlet. :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: |O
Applying the "resolution" to future vehicles, or buying back a number of gross polluters, or incentives towards newer truly compliant vehicles is probably a better idea.
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Here in states like Indiana, there are no emissions tests, no method to force the update anyhow.
I envy you.
I used to have two seater with two catalytic converters, one optimized for performance and one optimized for smog tests. I got very good in swapping them.
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I guess this will vary by country, but can anyone be forced to take their car in for "correction"?
Sure, this was addressed earlier... in countries with emissions regulations, the authorities can refuse to allow the cars to be registered if they are not updated.
If any of these vehicles are sold with "California Emission" you'd should take a bet that CARB will be trying to ban/block them.
CARB response:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_letter.pdf (http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/in_use_compliance_letter.pdf)
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I guess this will vary by country, but can anyone be forced to take their car in for "correction"?
Sure, this was addressed earlier... in countries with emissions regulations, the authorities can refuse to allow the cars to be registered if they are not updated.
Hmmmm, well in the UK we don't need to register our cars every year, but we do have get a Ministry of Transport test certificate. However I have NEVER heard of MOTs being refused based on not taking your car for a recall. I stand to be corrected on that, and I'm not saying it can't happen, but that would be a huge issue!
I don't think they can refuse the MOT test. After all the car passes the test where it comes to emissions. It will take a changing the law for to enforce that but since it is likely that other manufacturers are affected to the effect could be huge.
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I'm beginning to think that this could kill VW group in it's present incarnation, especially with the potential anti-diesel legislation in EU.
And good ridance, next: the banks. I never see why when these things happen we have to worry about how to prop the company up because it is "too big to fail". Big companies come to rely on this attitude and complete complicity from governments to rip us all off and then walk away unharmed.
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And good ridance, next: the banks. I never see why when these things happen we have to worry about how to prop the company up because it is "too big to fail". Big companies come to rely on this attitude and complete complicity from governments to rip us all off and then walk away unharmed.
As much as I agree with you this would have a serious ripple effect on the suppliers of VW and VW's own employees. Why should they suffer because of the decisions of some MBA wankers?
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You give the standard response: too big to fail. That is where government comes in. Oh it would crash the company would it ? what a darn shame, then maybe as it's finished the government should apply all of it's fines, prosecute those responsible and then buy the company off for what it is worth at that time - nix and continue to run it. The astounding effect would be that we the people would own said company and it's profits would be added to our taxes.
But of course we will do what we did with the banks, prop them up, hand out token fines and punishments and let them continue as usual.
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Also don't forget that 20% of VW shares are held by the federal state of Niedersachsen (Lower Saxony).
It's pretty unlikely that VW will fall. However due to the weird American law system, it's indeed more or less unpredictable how expensive this will get for VW.
Obviously this could mean that VW will have to get rid of some brands/parts like Bugatti, Bentley, Scania and the like which are not part of the "brand essence".
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The vw business will be made out of several companies for liability. Most likely one or more of those companies will bankrupt if the pressure gets too high.
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The astounding effect would be that we the people would own said company and it's profits would be added to our taxes.
Don't confuse between the government and we the people. The bureaucracy has interests of its own and is too big to fail.
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I'm beginning to think that this could kill VW group in it's present incarnation, especially with the potential anti-diesel legislation in EU.
And good ridance, next: the banks. I never see why when these things happen we have to worry about how to prop the company up because it is "too big to fail". Big companies come to rely on this attitude and complete complicity from governments to rip us all off and then walk away unharmed.
Why would you say that??
I don't hate VW or wish their demise - why would anyone want to punish 500,000+ people for the sins of a handful of managers and engineers.
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Indeed. Two wrongs don't make a right.
IMHO it's the EPA which comes out of this whole debacle looking far, far worse than VW. They're a US government funded organisation whose job it is to monitor and regulate air quality, and yet only now have they figured out that there are millions of cars out there which don't perform in the real world like they did on test day. Some of the affected VW's are over 5 years old already.
Seriously? They've actually not noticed? |O
Why exactly have they NOT been testing cars at random, in ways which go outside their prescribed regulatory tests, in order to find out what they're actually putting out in normal use?
If they've not been doing this testing, how can they possibly know whether or not their regulatory tests are representative and useful?
VW has admitted they cocked up. Why hasn't the EPA?
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in ways which go outside their prescribed regulatory tests
How could they determine anything from that? Any deviation would be de-facto attributed to the different testing procedure.
The only way they could have found anything would be to secretly develop a 2nd testing procedure that is as well standardized as the "normal one", run hundreds of car models through it, and maybe see something like "most brands get a average change of 20% compared to the normal procedure but VW increases 50%", and suppose there is something fishy but with no proof and at unreasonable expense.
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the other odd thing is that in two years time they would have been found out anyway by the new test.
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How could they determine anything from that? Any deviation would be de-facto attributed to the different testing procedure.
It would allow them to know what emissions were actually being produced, in real-world conditions, from a population of vehicles that had been designed to pass the regulatory testing in force at the time. From this information, they may be able to make an informed decision about the fitness for purpose of the statutory tests.
My point is that, without this information, they can only make an uninformed decision about the fitness for purpose of the tests.
The ongoing testing isn't about spotting cheats, though there's a good chance it would do so. It's about gathering data to ensure the statutory tests are valid, useful, and are actually achieving what they're supposed to.
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Indeed. Two wrongs don't make a right.
IMHO it's the EPA which comes out of this whole debacle looking far, far worse than VW. They're a US government funded organisation whose job it is to monitor and regulate air quality, and yet only now have they figured out that there are millions of cars out there which don't perform in the real world like they did on test day. Some of the affected VW's are over 5 years old already.
Seriously? They've actually not noticed? |O
Why exactly have they NOT been testing cars at random, in ways which go outside their prescribed regulatory tests, in order to find out what they're actually putting out in normal use?
If they've not been doing this testing, how can they possibly know whether or not their regulatory tests are representative and useful?
VW has admitted they cocked up. Why hasn't the EPA?
Well in the US, the EPA oversees the cars when they are new, but testing and registration are left to the states and counties. In Texas, the up the tailpipe testing is only required for cars prior to OBDII standards. Cars manufactured after 1996 just have to have no fault codes stored in the computer to pass the emissions test, unless the testing facility sees something grossly out of whack like white/black smoke coming out the tailpipe indicating some kind of defeat device is in use.
There was one point in time (not sure if still the case) that the Dallas/Fort Worth area in Texas (Tarrant County and Dallas County) had stricter emissions standards than California did and there were plans to put mobile emissions testing devices on the major roads to look for evidence of polluters. It never happened though because of the cost.
Rural areas typically have much less strict emissions standards because of the lesser amount of traffic / vehicles, so keeping the air clean in those areas isn't as big of a deal.
Interesting side note... Modern cars and diesels especially actually help clean the air as they are operated. Diesels will inhale exhaust from other vehicles as they are being operated and reburn some of the unburned hydrocarbons and it gets re-treated just as a happenstance of it getting passed through the selective catalytic reduction system. NOx emissions from other vehicles and trucks get inhaled as well and broken down.
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So from what I have seen in the news the bit of code in question switches on / increases the injection of the urea solution in to the exhaust gases to react with the NO and NO2 to change it in to CO2 and N. So it leaves me wondering if it works why only have it fully operational in test conditions.
I use a number of truck drivers (this is going somewhere) with there own tractor units to hall our trailers and one common conversation that keeps coming up when I see them is them complaining that the urea injection emissions control system has malfunctioned again on there rigs bringing on warning lights and switching to a limp home mode.
This present isue with VW is the euro5 engines which were the first type they fitted the urea injection systems too. So could it be that the emissions control system was causing them reliability / service / warranty isues?
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So from what I have seen in the news the bit of code in question switches on / increases the injection of the urea solution in to the exhaust gases to react with the NO and NO2 to change it in to CO2 and N. So it leaves me wondering if it works why only have it fully operational in test conditions.
I understand that a part of the affected cars use SCR (selective catalytic reduction -> urea injection) and the others use a storage catalyst instead. For the cars with a storage catalyst, the problem is that a fuel injection is needed if the storage is full. This leads to creation of carbon monoxide that converts the NOx to nitrogen und CO2. Obviously this is not desired for low CO2 emission and fuel consumption, so avoiding the fuel injection to optimize fuel/CO2 leads to increase in NOx. Vice versa NOx "optimization" could be to inject fuel which of course in nothing desired for a normal driving situation.
For the cars with SCR, the problem is that the urea tank is not unlimited and as I understand the American regulations demand that the tank must not be filled outside the normal service interval. So the engine control software will try to save urea in certain situation while it surely wouldn't in an "optimized" test scenario.
Generally, a engine control unit will provide a rich mixture in situations where the driver demands sudden acceleration. It is quite obvious that providing optimum power will increase NOx and CO2 creation as well as fuel consumption. So in a test cycle situation, they might use a lean mixture that a human driver would find annoying.
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Basically it's near impossible to get the great unwashed to even top up the wiper fluid, never mind check the oil dipstick or check tyre pressures. Having them top up the urea (and a lack of places selling the stuff) was probably deemed impracticable. So they worked out how much urea is needed between service intervals so it gets topped up then. Unfortunately there is too much of it needed, so it has to be metered out sparingly... The bluemotion type cars are not sold to petrolheads or enthusiasts, they are just glorified shopping trollies. (Which is another reason why diesels are rubbish in this sector - motorway cruisers, fine, the DPFs and stuff can be blown off on a high speed long run, but not for dropping the kids off and popping into Tesco)
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The astounding effect would be that we the people would own said company and it's profits would be added to our taxes.
You've just described that extremely nasty "N" word that shall never be spoken in this era of Magnificent Corporatism.
All hail our glorious corporate overlords!
Nationalisation
Sssh, keep it quiet!
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we the people would own said company and it's profits would be added to our taxes.
actually all the companies were like that over here at the times we were behind the iron curtain - owned by state (we the people are the state) - it had many positive and negative side effects
positive side effects:
- the general director (like CEO nowadays) was earning approx 3 times more than regular employee (in contrast with the factor of 2000x and higher nowadays)
- employment was mandatory - everyone got a job. being unemployed was a crime. woman had the choice of being a "woman in household" or being employed.
- everyone was stealing everything at factories and mysteriously nothing was missing ;) - that was the true 8. wonder of the world :D
- no rich and poor - everyone has a certain standard of living available.
- 100% free schools & universities
- 100% free healthcare
and negative side effects as well:
- you had to vote the single party available ;) (actually the outcome was not a big difference compared to politics nowadays)
- you shall not pass ! they said at the western borders
- 5 year planning for everything - it worked perfect for agriculture and heavy industry, but was a total fail for computers and electronics.
- no freedom of speech - you got jailed if you publicly protested or criticized the party (but you can easily go to jail nowadays as well - just have a look at US and their police :) )
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- 5 year planning for everything - it worked perfect for agriculture and heavy industry, but was a total fail for computers and electronics.
Pushing Lamarckism because natural selection and Mendelian genetics went against the party lines starved millions to death. The 5 year plans that came after those fails may have worked well for agriculture but it didn't always.
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we the people would own said company and it's profits would be added to our taxes.
actually all the companies were like that over here at the times we were behind the iron curtain - owned by state (we the people are the state) - it had many positive and negative side effects
positive side effects:
- the general director (like CEO nowadays) was earning approx 3 times more than regular employee (in contrast with the factor of 2000x and higher nowadays)
- employment was mandatory - everyone got a job. being unemployed was a crime. woman had the choice of being a "woman in household" or being employed.
- everyone was stealing everything at factories and mysteriously nothing was missing ;) - that was the true 8. wonder of the world :D
- no rich and poor - everyone has a certain standard of living available.
- 100% free schools & universities
- 100% free healthcare
and negative side effects as well:
- you had to vote the single party available ;) (actually the outcome was not a big difference compared to politics nowadays)
- you shall not pass ! they said at the western borders
- 5 year planning for everything - it worked perfect for agriculture and heavy industry, but was a total fail for computers and electronics.
- no freedom of speech - you got jailed if you publicly protested or criticized the party (but you can easily go to jail nowadays as well - just have a look at US and their police :) )
Why is it that is something assumed to sound similar to something else is proposed it's given the name of the something it was not meant to be. The pro's all sound good. the cons are a problem with the political system that is seperate.
The problem with our capitalist model is that the people at the top will never be happy and apparently they need more every time or something is wrong. Why should i have to work for the same old pay just so that someone higher up can line his pockets thicker and thicker. If every engineer on earth did not exist how would the salesman and the CEO make any money, it work both ways. The CEO will tell you he is taking all the risks bla bla bla, well we know that those risks are now: breaking the law! So simple solution, let the company "fail" take it over, boot the hierarchy out and continue to run it for it's workers and the periphery jobs that support it, oh sorry did i just suggest that someone on millions and breaking the law get just deserts ? how foolish of me :popcorn:
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In the NL the importer of VW has already received a collective claim which could potentially run up to several billion euros :scared:.
In Belgium there's a claim to VW also, witch could (in 2025?) run upto half the subsidies Belgium is giving to Audi this year.
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As much as I agree with you this would have a serious ripple effect on the suppliers of VW and VW's own employees. Why should they suffer because of the decisions of some MBA wankers?
Because they are also ready to take the profit and the wage when those MBA's decisions turn out good.
Their wage was made on the sales results of the scam.
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News from the press: VW engineers have confessed that they did install the special test mode software, because they couldn't find any solution to meet the emission standards and the cost objective for the diesel engine. VW's official statement about that is "no comment".
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In the NL the importer of VW has already received a collective claim which could potentially run up to several billion euros :scared:.
In Belgium there's a claim to VW also, witch could (in 2025?) run upto half the subsidies Belgium is giving to Audi this year.
So they just get fined some money they were given for free, can I say "told you so" ? :popcorn:
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Why is it that is something assumed to sound similar to something else is proposed it's given the name of the something it was not meant to be. The pro's all sound good. the cons are a problem with the political system that is seperate.
The trouble is, the political system is directly linked to the cons. When the state owns everything, then the state takes control of everything, resulting in totalitarianism and economic stagnation. Once the state employs everyone and owns all the companies, competition ceases to exist, so as there's no incentive to improve anything. The end result isn't socialism but state capitalism, where the people become slaves to the state.
The only time state ownership ever benefits anyone is for natural monopolies and infrastructure, where meaningful competition doesn't exist anyway.
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- employment was mandatory - everyone got a job. being unemployed was a crime.
I don't see how government forcing people to work in its factories is s positive thing. It's slavery.
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- employment was mandatory - everyone got a job. being unemployed was a crime.
I don't see how government forcing people to work in its factories is s positive thing. It's slavery.
probably it was pictured that way by the stupid propaganda in the US ;) but the reality was as i mentioned - it was mandatory to be employed, and everyone had a job. no one was forcing you to work as a slave - you was free to choose where to work.. everyone had to work like it is today... but today it's not the government forcing you to work but the loans and mortgages... you didn't live here, so don't call it slavery... i'm not saying everything was ok, but it definitely wasn't a slavery. and probably you missed it - but the positive thing was that everyone had a job - there was no such thing like fear of losing your job. and actually people over here were smiling much more back in the '80.
p.s. following your logic (something forcing you to work) - even capitalism is a slavery
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- employment was mandatory - everyone got a job. being unemployed was a crime.
I don't see how government forcing people to work in its factories is s positive thing. It's slavery.
probably it was pictured that way by the stupid propaganda in the US ;) but the reality was as i mentioned - it was mandatory to be employed, and everyone had a job. no one was forcing you to work as a slave - you was free to choose where to work.. everyone had to work like it is today... but today it's not the government forcing you to work but the loans and mortgages... you didn't live here, so don't call it slavery... i'm not saying everything was ok, but it definitely wasn't a slavery. and probably you missed it - but the positive thing was that everyone had a job - there was no such thing like fear of losing your job. and actually people over here were smiling much more back in the '80.
p.s. following your logic (something forcing you to work) - even capitalism is a slavery
It's not based on any propaganda, it's based on what you are telling us here, that the government forced the entire population to work in government run jobs. I don't see how you can put this in the positive side your your analysis.
Freedom is not an American thing, it's an universal and ancient core human value.
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Why is it that is something assumed to sound similar to something else is proposed it's given the name of the something it was not meant to be. The pro's all sound good. the cons are a problem with the political system that is seperate.
The trouble is, the political system is directly linked to the cons. When the state owns everything, then the state takes control of everything, resulting in totalitarianism and economic stagnation. Once the state employs everyone and owns all the companies, competition ceases to exist, so as there's no incentive to improve anything. The end result isn't socialism but state capitalism, where the people become slaves to the state.
The only time state ownership ever benefits anyone is for natural monopolies and infrastructure, where meaningful competition doesn't exist anyway.
Did't say they had to take over the whole industry, Just take this particular one that if justice was applied would fail. They need fining so hard that it may bankrupt the company, this is the excuse to stop due fines. So you kick those running the company out, ie those who committed criminal offences (and you presute them and ban them from ever running a company or holding a high post in one), you buy off the now peniless and worthless company for next to nothing, give it the cash injection it needs, run it until the fines are paid off and the loan and then it could return to the private sector. Basically what we should have done with the banks. I can see this going the same way as the banks, no criminal prosecutions, a slap on the wrist and back to business as usual.
Oh the share holders, the poor share holders i hear you say. Didn't anyone know that shares go up and down and you could loose your money when you speculate? I lend money via a peer to peer lending scheme, when the comanies borrowing money from me go bust and have no assetts i loose my money, the financial market is a tough one you know ?
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I lend money via a peer to peer lending scheme, when the comanies borrowing money from me go bust and have no assetts i loose my money, the financial market is a tough one you know ?
Have you lost any money with a peer to peer lend? Seems to me they have a high rate of success based on the way they are set up.
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I lend money via a peer to peer lending scheme, when the comanies borrowing money from me go bust and have no assetts i loose my money, the financial market is a tough one you know ?
Have you lost any money with a peer to peer lend? Seems to me they have a high rate of success based on the way they are set up.
Yes and no. I have not lost any of my capital because I invest in multiple companies. Usually at a rate of £20 per company (about £3000 invested). In this way, as they recommend you are least likely to suffer a big loss. But the risk is always there and it's you that foots the bill if they can't get the money back. I have had a number of loans default and as of yet that money is lost. But as of yet the lost money amounts to less than half of my gross interest rate. on paper my average return is 10.5% but after bad debt (and 1% fee) it is 4.8% because of £700 earnings nearly £300 has been on defaulted loans.
The idea is that companies are put into risk bands so that a higher risk band has to pay higher interests, exactly the same as at the bank. If the bank thinks you are a risk they charge you a higher rate of if you have no asset to back up your loan. So while I have no made an over all loss i have lost money on specific loans. You are told this will happen and it's something you accept and factor in when setting interest (although the company i use have just decided to fix their rates for each band). So same goes in the shares market, you win some you loose some, to justify not treating a company harshly due to loss of share value is stupid.
If i want to borrow money I borrow it on a mortgage against my house. With a 60% loan to value rate I get excellent interest rates, like 1.5-3% yet funding circle makes me 4.8% minus some tax.
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there was no such thing like fear of losing your job.
It's not based on any propaganda, it's based on what you are telling us here, that the government forced the entire population to work in government run jobs. I don't see how you can put this in the positive side your your analysis.
Maybe you should have been there to understand it. It is not the first time I have heard people speak positively about living behind the iron curtain in eastern Europe. For many having job security and free health care makes life a whole lot easier.
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(although the company i use have just decided to fix their rates for each band).
What company do you use? I loaned some money via Kiva and I do not get interest. The local company in the country where the loan is given, gets the interest so they take the risks.
But I think it might be more fun if I got interest :)
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Maybe you should have been there to understand it. It is not the first time I have heard people speak positively about living behind the iron curtain in eastern Europe. For many having job security and free health care makes life a whole lot easier.
That's not surprising. Every form of oppression has winers and losers.
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(although the company i use have just decided to fix their rates for each band).
What company do you use? I loaned some money via Kiva and I do not get interest. The local company in the country where the loan is given, gets the interest so they take the risks.
But I think it might be more fun if I got interest :)
I can't see why you are loaning money if you are not getting interest. i use fundingcircle.com
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I can't see why you are loaning money if you are not getting interest. i use fundingcircle.com
To help someone
Edit: help them buy a cow in Armenia
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Oh i see. well if it's something specific you have signed up to for that reason then good for you.
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I think Simon should be King of the world.
Anyone who is good at something and thus does well is evil.
Any company that is successful is evil.
Banks are evil but I'm a loan shark charging over 10% interest but I'm a self-righteous lefty.
PS. Have you ever owned a British Leyland vehicle? I have, they were fucking shite buckets.
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there was no such thing like fear of losing your job.
It's not based on any propaganda, it's based on what you are telling us here, that the government forced the entire population to work in government run jobs. I don't see how you can put this in the positive side your your analysis.
Maybe you should have been there to understand it. It is not the first time I have heard people speak positively about living behind the iron curtain in eastern Europe. For many having job security and free health care makes life a whole lot easier.
Yes, there were some good things about living in eastern Europe in the 80s but it can't have been that good, as many people wanted to leave. Everyone having a job sounds nice but it meant that the government created useless jobs which involved doing nothing, except drinking vodka and playing cards all day, similar to people dossing on benefits here in the UK. The sad thing is, it's possible to have some of those things, such as free health care, without all of the totalitarian BS.
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I think Simon should be King of the world.
Anyone who is good at something and thus does well is evil.
Any company that is successful is evil.
Banks are evil but I'm a loan shark charging over 10% interest but I'm a self-righteous lefty.
PS. Have you ever owned a British Leyland vehicle? I have, they were fucking shite buckets.
Me king ? then what would people have left to fight over ?
I never said that any company that is successful is evil. define success, we seem to measure it only in profits often for people who never lifted a fingure. Unfortunately because profits is the only thing that matters there is a race to the bottom and us consumers do not help. If we all demaded good quality products that lasted and were willing to pay for them then businesses could afford to make a decent amount of money and a good quality product.
I'm not a loan shark, I'm not forcing anyone to borrow from me, infact I help cut the banks out and give businesses a better deal than a bank, have you ever taken out a business loan ? Do you think peer to peer lending would be around if it was giving a rawer deal than the banks ? Like i said I often loose my money, I don't employ bailiffs to bash the door down and take peoples belongings if i loose my money. One of my losses was to a solicitor company that frankly did us up like kippers............ interest rates range from 8% to 18% for he very worse of borrowers who at least are given a chance. Lending to businesses is very different from lending to individuals (which is what "loan sharks" do) businesses are far more likely to walk away from the debt and have more legal tools to do so without individuals footing the bill other than lenders like me (the loan shark) which is why interest rates are higher along with the fact that they are taking far greater risks with my money like entirely financing a business that could totally flop and never repay it's debts.
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fundingcircle.com is serious business. :phew: But interesting so I will study it. Thanks
Is there a min that I can loan, I think with Kiva it is $25. I made 2 - $25 loans. The receiver gets the money immediately from the agent then the agent puts up the details and asks for givers. To make a loan is just making a credit card payment. So they have their cows.
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fundingcircle.com is serious business. :phew: But interesting so I will study it. Thanks
Is there a min that I can loan, I think with Kiva it is $25. I made 2 - $25 loans. The receiver gets the money immediately from the agent then the agent puts up the details and asks for givers. To make a loan is just making a credit card payment. So they have their cows.
Not sure if funding circle operates in the US, over here it is minimum £20 per loan (you can go up in amounts of £20) and you have to put £100 at a time into your account.
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Anyone who is good at something and thus does well is evil.
When did i say that. Todays world is a bit more complicated than those that do well rise to the top. There plenty at the top who were just put there. and then we wonder why they fail to perform despite huga salaries.
Is the sales person or CEO more valuable than the person that designs and makes the product ? I'm not saying equal pay but there is a huge divide. But apparently that devide is to compensate for the risk one takes in breaking the law in order to promote the company.
being "good at something" does not guarantee that you "do well". Plenty of people work hard for no recognition other than a basic pay. Where I work doing well means pulling the company out of the shit it puts itself into, otherwise your just there to be used, that does not lead to "ssuccess".
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Yes, there were some good things about living in eastern Europe in the 80s but it can't have been that good, as many people wanted to leave.
Years ago I visited the GDR. It's was a depressing place, especially in comparison to West Germany
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Years ago I visited the GDR. It's was a depressing place, especially in comparison to West Germany
Indeed, but at least they never had such things as pollution laws, and everyone lucky enough (or friends with people in high places) would drive a shitty carburretor FSO or LADA belching as much shit into the atmos as needed to get to the prole factory and back. Waiting list for them of course, and you had to have served the state for a decade or so to be worthy...
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Where I work doing well means pulling the company out of the shit it puts itself into, otherwise your just there to be used, that does not lead to "ssuccess".
But make sure your work is recognised. Otherwise you just keep shuffling more and more shit to compensate for other people's incompetence.
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Where I work doing well means pulling the company out of the shit it puts itself into, otherwise your just there to be used, that does not lead to "ssuccess".
But make sure your work is recognised. Otherwise you just keep shuffling more and more shit to compensate for other people's incompetence.
good luck with that one. I think the last rise I got was for pulling them out of the poo at the last minute twice in the space of a few months by doing what I had been previously banned from doing: electronics, because apparently we were to sub everything out and I was only to do mechanical stuff except the subby's were useless but thgat was me and unqualified person against a company claiming to employ graduates. Now it is accepted that I do do electronics alongside a new subcontractor that actually know his stuff there is not too much poo to sort out. so end of rises for me I guess. I don't do office life well, of course every electrical problem they have is "my fault" because they are stuck in the dark ages of only having to make metal stuff and not having to worry about controlling it.
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Well vote with your feet then Si! If you're so good and they're so shit, then quit and go somewhere else...
PS. I hope you show more attention to detail professionally than you show in your forum posts...
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So they just get fined some money they were given for free, can I say "told you so" ? :popcorn:
Even worse. The get the money now, and in 8+ years there is a little possibility they have to give a part back, without intrest or devaluation correction.
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- employment was mandatory - everyone got a job. being unemployed was a crime.
I don't see how government forcing people to work in its factories is s positive thing. It's slavery.
But that's a good thing for the regime. And those guys weren't whining around on Facebook or Forums...
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Maybe you should have been there to understand it. It is not the first time I have heard people speak positively about living behind the iron curtain in eastern Europe. For many having job security and free health care makes life a whole lot easier.
Good they had that Berlin Wall, all those capitalists flooding into the communist regime...
But I heard rumours too that being high enough on the communist ladder wasn't a bad life.
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Well vote with your feet then Si! If you're so good and they're so shit, then quit and go somewhere else...
I agree but sometimes a job can be an interesting place to pick up knowledge.
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Well vote with your feet then Si! If you're so good and they're so shit, then quit and go somewhere else...
PS. I hope you show more attention to detail professionally than you show in your forum posts...
never said I was good, but I try harder than most. And not having a peice of paper that officially qualifies me Id have slim chances elswhere. It's th way many companies operate, get someone in off the street, if they do good promote them but not recognise them. We live under the illusion that it's an easier life in the office, some times i wish I was back testing radiators. but I started my own business to so that some times I get to do things properly.
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Forbes has an article comparing car related regulations in the EU and the US. The EU focus on CO/CO2 over NOx which gives Diesel an advantage over petrol. That's why Diesel cars are so popular in the EU but less in the US.
The current NOx debacle is just another unintended consequence of the Catastrophic AGW scare.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2015/10/02/eu-emissions-regulations-made-the-vw-diesel-u-s-regs-brought-it-down/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfisher/2015/10/02/eu-emissions-regulations-made-the-vw-diesel-u-s-regs-brought-it-down/)
http://www.voxeu.org/article/diffusion-european-diesel-automobiles (http://www.voxeu.org/article/diffusion-european-diesel-automobiles)
(http://www.voxeu.org/sites/default/files/image/FromMay2014/miravete%20fig3%2029%20sep.png)
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Based on those figures and for what I've read around the web it seems the EA 189 engine was producing 10 to 40 times the NOx levels mandated by the EPA.
Meaning that the values really are 0.7 - 2.8, so they are still violating even the EU regulations. Or is there a chance they still comply with EU regulations?
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Based on those figures and for what I've read around the web it seems the EA 189 engine was producing 10 to 40 times the NOx levels mandated by the EPA.
X10 to X40 in average? Peak under special conditions?
The EPA has its own interests so I would take their claims with a grain of salt.
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Well, it wasn't the EPA that discovered the problem anyways.
So this is from the horses mouth:
http://wvutoday.wvu.edu/n/2015/09/24/wvu-study-found-elevated-levels-of-emissions-from-volkswagen-vehicles (http://wvutoday.wvu.edu/n/2015/09/24/wvu-study-found-elevated-levels-of-emissions-from-volkswagen-vehicles)
15 to 35 times.
West Virginia University’s Center for Alternative Fuels Engines and Emissions research (CAFEE) contacted VW and got a no comment.
The research was funded by the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT), a non profit organization.
Interview with WVU CAFEE:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/usa-volkswagen-researchers-interview-pix-idUKL1N11S1GM20150923 (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/usa-volkswagen-researchers-interview-pix-idUKL1N11S1GM20150923)
Edit: btw this was a $50,000 study.
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The current NOx debacle is just another unintended consequence of the Catastrophic AGW scare.
No it is not. NOx causes acid rain and other problems. Acid rain was very hot in the 80's long before anyone ever heard about global warming.
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The current NOx debacle is just another unintended consequence of the Catastrophic AGW scare.
No it is not. NOx causes acid rain and other problems. Acid rain was very hot in the 80's long before anyone ever heard about global warming.
What I meant is that the Catastrophic AGW scare distracted some agencies away from NOx.
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The current NOx debacle is just another unintended consequence of the Catastrophic AGW scare.
No it is not. NOx causes acid rain and other problems. Acid rain was very hot in the 80's long before anyone ever heard about global warming.
Yes, yes it is. Due to retarded AGW fearmongering resulting in enacting CO2 SCAM aka Carbon emissions trading it became very lucrative to pump out diesel cars, thanks to direct monetary incentives and the fact you can tune diesel for low co2 (and high nox)
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- it was mandatory to be employed
or you got shot
- you was free to choose where to work
as long as it was the one given to you by the government.
and actually people over here were smiling much more back in the '80.
if you didn't, you got shot.
as for free healthcare ... i'd rather die than have ended up in those hospitals. all they had was rusty old beds, rusty needles in buildings that fell apart. ever seen the documentaries about the orphanages over there ?
"Our living conditions are so good we don't even have any sick people " ( we shoot them as they enter the hospital)
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The current NOx debacle is just another unintended consequence of the Catastrophic AGW scare.
No it is not. NOx causes acid rain and other problems. Acid rain was very hot in the 80's long before anyone ever heard about global warming.
What I meant is that the Catastrophic AGW scare distracted some agencies away from NOx.
OK, now its clear to me ;D
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- it was mandatory to be employed
or you got shot
- you was free to choose where to work
as long as it was the one given to you by the government.
and actually people over here were smiling much more back in the '80.
if you didn't, you got shot.
as for free healthcare ... i'd rather die than have ended up in those hospitals. all they had was rusty old beds, rusty needles in buildings that fell apart. ever seen the documentaries about the orphanages over there ?
"Our living conditions are so good we don't even have any sick people " ( we shoot them as they enter the hospital)
if you lived here - then you are talking bullshit deliberately
if you didn't live here - then you talking bullshit without knowing what are you talking about - so please be so kind and shut the f**k up
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rob77 ...
... please be so kind and shut the f**k up
free_electron be careful rob77 is a healthy government supervisor worker :-DD
And don't be offended he said "please" :palm:
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or you got shot
as long as it was the one given to you by the government.
if you didn't, you got shot.
as for free healthcare ... i'd rather die than have ended up in those hospitals. all they had was rusty old beds, rusty needles in buildings that fell apart. ever seen the documentaries about the orphanages over there ?
"Our living conditions are so good we don't even have any sick people " ( we shoot them as they enter the hospital)
oh wow, you sound like a typical US redneck :) is fox news your fav tv station?
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For the cars with SCR, the problem is that the urea tank is not unlimited and as I understand the American regulations demand that the tank must not be filled outside the normal service interval. So the engine control software will try to save urea in certain situation while it surely wouldn't in an "optimized" test
Exactly but why use the same software in Europe as well?
I had a Peugeot 308 which had a 18 liter AdBlue tank which was, according to Peugeot, sufficient for 20.000 to 25.000km but the maintenance interval was 30.000km. It meant an extra visit to the dealer between services.
You can buy the special bottles at certain gas stations, there is a special valve system in that bottle and in the car itself.
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or you got shot
as long as it was the one given to you by the government.
if you didn't, you got shot.
as for free healthcare ... i'd rather die than have ended up in those hospitals. all they had was rusty old beds, rusty needles in buildings that fell apart. ever seen the documentaries about the orphanages over there ?
"Our living conditions are so good we don't even have any sick people " ( we shoot them as they enter the hospital)
oh wow, you sound like a typical US redneck :) is fox news your fav tv station?
Rasz: Grow up.
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- it was mandatory to be employed
or you got shot
- you was free to choose where to work
as long as it was the one given to you by the government.
and actually people over here were smiling much more back in the '80.
if you didn't, you got shot.
as for free healthcare ... i'd rather die than have ended up in those hospitals. all they had was rusty old beds, rusty needles in buildings that fell apart. ever seen the documentaries about the orphanages over there ?
"Our living conditions are so good we don't even have any sick people " ( we shoot them as they enter the hospital)
Those who didn't go to work weren't shot. They were sent to prison.
The hospitals weren't that bad but they deteriorated drastically after the fall of the regime. Under sate capitalism, it was in the government's interest to have a healthy workforce. This is really no different to how employers in the US frequently provide health insurance to their employees. Oh and look at how good healthcare is in Cuba, compared to the US, considering how little money Cuba has.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/salim-lamrani/cubas-health-care-system-_b_5649968.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/salim-lamrani/cubas-health-care-system-_b_5649968.html)
In reality, universal healthcare also benefits both governments and businesses in countries with market economies and the US would have the same too, if it weren't for the insurance companies pushing their agenda.
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or you got shot
as long as it was the one given to you by the government.
if you didn't, you got shot.
as for free healthcare ... i'd rather die than have ended up in those hospitals. all they had was rusty old beds, rusty needles in buildings that fell apart. ever seen the documentaries about the orphanages over there ?
"Our living conditions are so good we don't even have any sick people " ( we shoot them as they enter the hospital)
oh wow, you sound like a typical US redneck :) is fox news your fav tv station?
Rasz: Grow up.
im a grown up already :(, and unlike free-electron lived under soviet occupation behind iron curtain
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im a grown up already :(, and unlike free-electron lived under soviet occupation behind iron curtain
Yes, I think many westerners have heard too much anti-Soviet propaganda and not enough from those who experienced life in the eastern bloc. In reality it wasn't as bad as we've been told (I'm a westerner myself).
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Oh and look at how good healthcare is in Cuba, compared to the US, considering how little money Cuba has.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/salim-lamrani/cubas-health-care-system-_b_5649968.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/salim-lamrani/cubas-health-care-system-_b_5649968.html)
Interesting - I wonder if there is any chance Cuba will have health care tourism like Thailand has? Will keep my eyes open.
Edit: Especially those that have health problems related to auto emissions
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Just steering this conversation back a little, this article gives a good summation of the present state of the VW emissions scandal with particular emphasis on the engineers/managers:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-websites-check-affected-cars-now-live (http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-websites-check-affected-cars-now-live)
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This video is interesting, they put a Jetta TDI on a dyno in AWD and FWD mode. It looks like in FWD only mode it kicks up a load of TC errors, it stands to reason that these (amongst others) probably triggered the dyno calibration firmware:
https://youtu.be/GhvI2oeBPtY
The performance differences are also significant so it'll be interesting to see how VW deal with the aftermath of dissatisfied customers.
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or you got shot
as long as it was the one given to you by the government.
if you didn't, you got shot.
as for free healthcare ... i'd rather die than have ended up in those hospitals. all they had was rusty old beds, rusty needles in buildings that fell apart. ever seen the documentaries about the orphanages over there ?
"Our living conditions are so good we don't even have any sick people " ( we shoot them as they enter the hospital)
oh wow, you sound like a typical US redneck :) is fox news your fav tv station?
Nope. BRT : Belgian Radio / TV and NOS : Nederlandse omroep stichting. I've seen the documentaries of 'behind the iron curtain'. There was a series shortly after the berlin wall fell on how 'good' and 'advanced' the state run hospitals and orphanages were in eastern germany , tzchechoslowakia, romania and the other 'east block' countries.
(http://www.borgenmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/JN0016RIN_opt.jpg)
(http://www.magarchive.tcu.edu/images/1999-04/potty.gif)
(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/73090000/jpg/_73090471_thorpeintensive.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/af/ec/c1/afecc12bef34b0dcc0e95c74aedb4617.jpg)
If it was so fabulous under Nicolae Ceausescu:. makes me wonder why they executed him first change they got ...
I also remember the images of people standing in line in poland, and other soviet occupied countries, for hours to get a bread , or nothing at all. The state run stores were empty. Lech Walesa standing up for his people and the poverty in those countries was shown every single day on TV... this was late 70's , begin 80's.
You seem to forget i am from Belgium. I had access to Belgian , Netherlands, French and UK Television. it was invariably the same. poverty and misery in a dreary country, buildings that were falling apart, no medicine ( no modern medicine ) or medical equipment. Outdated procedures and rusty beds. Unless you belonged to the 'proletariat' . Those fatheads had all they wanted. The other 99% ? not so much... I still remember the images from when the wall came down. The droves of east germans coming across the border in their paper-mache and polyester trabants and wartburgs, loaded with all they had (which was a bunch of wicker baskets and some clothes, fleeing to western germany. If it was so great in eastern germany : why did they come over ?
the people that could afford a TV had a choice of the standard, state approved black and white 13 inch with 1 channel : the state approved propaganda channel. I've seen those TV's... They didn't even have a tuner. it was hardwired to 1 frequency.
As a kid we had commodore 64 computers , behind the iron curtain ? an old wheel and a stick... if they had a stick ... ( it was more useful as firewood ).
Anyone claiming it was 'so good' behind the iron curtain belonged to the elite who were well fed. For the average worker it was horrible.
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state approved black and white 13 inch with 1 channel : the state approved propaganda channel. I've seen those TV's... They didn't even have a tuner. it was hardwired to 1 frequency.
I wonder what these would be worth on eBay now that VW engineers will have to sell theirs.
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oh wow, you sound like a typical US redneck :) is fox news your fav tv station?
Two doses of bigotry in a single line post. Good job!
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Yes, I think many westerners have heard too much anti-Soviet propaganda and not enough from those who experienced life in the eastern bloc. In reality it wasn't as bad as we've been told (I'm a westerner myself).
It's kind of sad all those with some entrepreneurship, the out-of-the box-thinkers, those who wanted freedom, are all shot.
We'll never know how they saw it, we only get the slave's version.
That's also the reason why things got worse when communism fell down. All that's left was a bunch of institutionalised slaves.
You can't build a society and investment driven industry with them.
It takes generations before the filtered-out gap gets filled.
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This video is interesting, they put a Jetta TDI on a dyno in AWD and FWD mode. It looks like in FWD only mode it kicks up a load of TC errors, it stands to reason that these (amongst others) probably triggered the dyno calibration firmware:
https://youtu.be/GhvI2oeBPtY
The performance differences are also significant so it'll be interesting to see how VW deal with the aftermath of dissatisfied customers.
I don't think they did the correct test there. It looked more like a failsafe mode and not the infamous test mode.
There are already numerous responses to that video stating the test wasn't correct. The biggest mistake is that they didn't do any emissions testing so you don't know if it is in testing mode or not.
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This video is interesting, they put a Jetta TDI on a dyno in AWD and FWD mode. It looks like in FWD only mode it kicks up a load of TC errors, it stands to reason that these (amongst others) probably triggered the dyno calibration firmware:
The performance differences are also significant so it'll be interesting to see how VW deal with the aftermath of dissatisfied customers.
I don't think they did the correct test there. It looked more like a failsafe mode and not the infamous test mode.
There are already numerous responses to that video stating the test wasn't correct. The biggest mistake is that they didn't do any emissions testing so you don't know if it is in testing mode or not.
Yep, the car clearly got confused by the lack of speed signal from the rear wheels and went into limp mode. Could that be an excuse for VW...?
It does beg the question though, how actually are the cars tested officially? Any 2wd dyno is going to cause an issue...
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Aren't OBD-II tools used for emissions tests in the USA? I would imagine that is a very simple way of detecting if in testing mode as you are pretty much telling the car to go into it!
The dashboard lit up like a christmas tree would fail our UK MOT tests alone. The MOT emissions testing is done up the tailpipe without any OBD-II tools. It is not done under any load (no rolling road needed) and only checks for CO, HC, and lambda (stoic. ratio) IIRC.
ETA: and for diesels the test is just a smoke check. No NOx is tested for at all.
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- it was mandatory to be employed
or you got shot
- you was free to choose where to work
as long as it was the one given to you by the government.
and actually people over here were smiling much more back in the '80.
if you didn't, you got shot.
as for free healthcare ... i'd rather die than have ended up in those hospitals. all they had was rusty old beds, rusty needles in buildings that fell apart. ever seen the documentaries about the orphanages over there ?
"Our living conditions are so good we don't even have any sick people " ( we shoot them as they enter the hospital)
No one got shot in the USSR, Stalin's personal doctor assured him that all deaths were ultimately due to heart failure even if the person had been shot, so all death certificates stated heart failure.
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Aren't OBD-II tools used for emissions tests in the USA? I would imagine that is a very simple way of detecting if in testing mode as you are pretty much telling the car to go into it!
The dashboard lit up like a christmas tree would fail our UK MOT tests alone. The MOT emissions testing is done up the tailpipe without any OBD-II tools. It is not done under any load (no rolling road needed) and only checks for CO, HC, and lambda (stoic. ratio) IIRC.
ETA: and for diesels the test is just a smoke check. No NOx is tested for at all.
The emissionstest for gasoline engines and smoke test for diesel engines is no longer required for more recent cars here in the Netherlands as long as the readiness bit is set when they check the on-board diagnosis. So basically they trust the car to give the correct information...
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or you got shot
as long as it was the one given to you by the government.
if you didn't, you got shot.
as for free healthcare ... i'd rather die than have ended up in those hospitals. all they had was rusty old beds, rusty needles in buildings that fell apart. ever seen the documentaries about the orphanages over there ?
"Our living conditions are so good we don't even have any sick people " ( we shoot them as they enter the hospital)
oh wow, you sound like a typical US redneck :) is fox news your fav tv station?
|O why is this supposed to be standard line of attack whenever an American speaks up for personal freedoms? And by the same token, I just dont get how young people (born after 1991) seem to nostalgic for the communist era as if everything was perfect back than. Ofcourse, it wasnt or the system wouldnt have collapsed!
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- it was mandatory to be employed
or you got shot
- you was free to choose where to work
as long as it was the one given to you by the government.
and actually people over here were smiling much more back in the '80.
if you didn't, you got shot.
as for free healthcare ... i'd rather die than have ended up in those hospitals. all they had was rusty old beds, rusty needles in buildings that fell apart. ever seen the documentaries about the orphanages over there ?
"Our living conditions are so good we don't even have any sick people " ( we shoot them as they enter the hospital)
if you lived here - then you are talking bullshit deliberately
if you didn't live here - then you talking bullshit without knowing what are you talking about - so please be so kind and shut the f**k up
Wow, man calm down, no one here on this forum overthrew your former govt :palm:
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Yes, I think many westerners have heard too much anti-Soviet propaganda and not enough from those who experienced life in the eastern bloc. In reality it wasn't as bad as we've been told (I'm a westerner myself).
It's kind of sad all those with some entrepreneurship, the out-of-the box-thinkers, those who wanted freedom, are all shot.
We'll never know how they saw it, we only get the slave's version.
That's also the reason why things got worse when communism fell down. All that's left was a bunch of institutionalised slaves.
You can't build a society and investment driven industry with them.
It takes generations before the filtered-out gap gets filled.
:-+ :-+ I couldn't have put this any better.
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Aren't OBD-II tools used for emissions tests in the USA? I would imagine that is a very simple way of detecting if in testing mode as you are pretty much telling the car to go into it!
The dashboard lit up like a christmas tree would fail our UK MOT tests alone. The MOT emissions testing is done up the tailpipe without any OBD-II tools. It is not done under any load (no rolling road needed) and only checks for CO, HC, and lambda (stoic. ratio) IIRC.
ETA: and for diesels the test is just a smoke check. No NOx is tested for at all.
The emissionstest for gasoline engines and smoke test for diesel engines is no longer required for more recent cars here in the Netherlands as long as the readiness bit is set when they check the on-board diagnosis. So basically they trust the car to give the correct information...
Yeah that's how it is here. People used to say you could just disconnect the battery, but no, that just sets all the bits to "not ready" and you have to drive for a few days to get them set back.
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or you got shot
as long as it was the one given to you by the government.
if you didn't, you got shot.
as for free healthcare ... i'd rather die than have ended up in those hospitals. all they had was rusty old beds, rusty needles in buildings that fell apart. ever seen the documentaries about the orphanages over there ?
"Our living conditions are so good we don't even have any sick people " ( we shoot them as they enter the hospital)
oh wow, you sound like a typical US redneck :) is fox news your fav tv station?
|O why is this supposed to be standard line of attack whenever an American speaks up for personal freedoms?
Because from the outside the US looks just as bad as the former communist states. You guys just don't know any better and THINK you have something called personal freedom.
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Can we bring this back to the VW firmware please.
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Can we bring this back to the VW firmware please.
fair enough.
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Can we bring this back to the VW firmware please.
So does anyone have any info on the specific emmissions test procedure used by government bodies to certify new models?
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Can we bring this back to the VW firmware please.
So, filled up the Tiger tank Tuesday, as the diesel price went up by 5% on Tuesday night. 340km and 20.5l of fuel to fill up the tank. Mostly it does a daily cycle of under 10km of stop start driving, unless I use it, where it will do a 50km round of freeway driving typically. Still it does a month on the 60l tank, not the advertised fuel consumption, but still pretty good.
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Can we bring this back to the VW firmware please.
VW is not the One Hang Low of the car industry. If they needed to cheat in order to get their engine emissions under the lawful limits (keeping prices near to competitors), how can *any* other car manufacturer do it right without using similar tricks?
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Can we bring this back to the VW firmware please.
VW is not the One Hang Low of the car industry. If they needed to cheat in order to get their engine emissions under the lawful limits (keeping prices near to competitors), how can *any* other car manufacturer do it right without using similar tricks?
They decided to roll their own instead of licensing a proven product which they already secured the contract. They put so much money on that engine and a lot was expected from that engine that had to come out no matter what.
15 years ago they got caught by doing the same with heavy equipment and they settled with the state of California for around $90M.
Also they where aware of the results of the research that concluded May 2013 and decided to do nothing about it. Also not only they didn't meet US standards but not even the less strict (NOx wise) EU standards.
Btw I did find this article while looking for the one I read about all that, not the same but will do:
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/215615-early-report-sheds-first-light-on-why-vw-cheated-chairman-warns-scandal-could-kill-the-company (https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/215615-early-report-sheds-first-light-on-why-vw-cheated-chairman-warns-scandal-could-kill-the-company)
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VW is not the One Hang Low of the car industry. If they needed to cheat in order to get their engine emissions under the lawful limits (keeping prices near to competitors), how can *any* other car manufacturer do it right without using similar tricks?
Ford Peugeot
http://www.focus.de/auto/ratgeber/kosten/unregelmaessigkeiten-nicht-nur-bei-vw-abgas-rueckfuehrung-mehrere-stunden-nicht-aktiv-vorwuerfe-auch-gegen-ford-und-peugeot_id_4998888.html (http://www.focus.de/auto/ratgeber/kosten/unregelmaessigkeiten-nicht-nur-bei-vw-abgas-rueckfuehrung-mehrere-stunden-nicht-aktiv-vorwuerfe-auch-gegen-ford-und-peugeot_id_4998888.html)
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Can we bring this back to the VW firmware please.
So does anyone have any info on the specific emmissions test procedure used by government bodies to certify new models?
Probably something UK specific here http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/fcb/exhaust-emissions-testing.asp (http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/fcb/exhaust-emissions-testing.asp) but government websites always send me to sleep ;)
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VW is not the One Hang Low of the car industry. If they needed to cheat in order to get their engine emissions under the lawful limits (keeping prices near to competitors), how can *any* other car manufacturer do it right without using similar tricks?
We already know that BMW and Daimler do it right. If another maker was cheating, they would have come forward by now, because all diesel cars are going to be retested.
15 years ago they got caught by doing the same with heavy equipment and they settled with the state of California for around $90M.
I am not sure what you are saying, but the 1998 heavy equipment engine settlement had nothing to do with Volkswagen; that was Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Volvo, Mack Trucks/Renault and Navistar.
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You are right it was Caterpillar Inc and Cummins Engine Co. I guess he was referring to the Industry in general
When the news about Volkswagen broke last Friday, Carder heard from some of the heavy diesel engine manufacturers that were part of the consent decree.
"They saw what had happened and called to say: 'Good job, you guys,'" Carder said. "Some folks said: 'How did they not learn from our mistakes 15 years ago?'"
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/usa-volkswagen-researchers-interview-pix-idUKL1N11S1GM20150923 (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/usa-volkswagen-researchers-interview-pix-idUKL1N11S1GM20150923)
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VW just retracted their application for the 2016 models ....
They need to apply to get a permit to sell. apparently they know the 2016 models won't pass either ...
http://www.autonews.com/article/20151007/OEM11/151009850/vw-withdraws-epa-application-for-2016-diesels (http://www.autonews.com/article/20151007/OEM11/151009850/vw-withdraws-epa-application-for-2016-diesels)
it get's better. apparently it was becasue it contains a "software feature" they "forgot" to disclose on the applications ...
Written testimony given by VW USA chairman to congress...
They really dug a deeeeeep hole this time ...
I think it is time for an industry wide standardized test. the problem is that everyone now self-certifies ( kinda like the CE mark. you can apply this yourself if you want )
There needs to be a well defined test standard that is applied by certified laboratories under real life conditions, before an engine is approved for manufacturing. for example:
- warm up the car stationary at 1000 RPM for 5 minutes.
- drive car for 1 mile at 45 MPH flat surface, measure average exhaust content
- drive car for 1 mile at 70 MPH flat surface , measure average exhaust content
- drive car under load : ( loaded with equivalent of 4 passengers and 200KG cargo ) , uphill on a 12% slope at 45 MPH : do same
if car has towing capabilities : run scenarios there as well.
or something along the lines. you can do this on a dyno if you want. the car should pass a number of real life scenarios to get an approval to sell this engine in the market
for the yearly end-user inspection : pick one test that is deemed to be the most common usage and see if it passes that . if it fails : repair it or scrap it.
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FYI - In the US lawyers are advertizing on tv for VW owners to sign up with them for a lawsuit. So they expect big returns. They say the fix will reduce performance and mileage.
Edit: They = lawyers
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FYI - In the US lawyers are advertizing on tv for VW owners to sign up with them for a lawsuit. So they expect big returns.
Yeah, let's see. Each owner gets $100, and the lawyer gets $1 per. If there are 5E6 owners they still only get $100 but the lawyer gets $5,000,000.
They say the fix will reduce performance and mileage.
How could it not? That's why they cheated in the first place.
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The company is now looking for individual engineers to take the blame, according to an interview in the Frankfurter Allgemeine newspaper (October 6, 2015). Statement: "Do you really think that a chief executive had time for the inner functioning of engine software?" from the new CEO M Mueller.
CEOs don't write code, but often they do set expectations.
The original article I saw about the American researchers that first noted the bad performance on the road stated that they had tested three vehicles (apparently selected at random): two VWs and one BMW. The two VWs were extremely high, and the BMW was right on the line.
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"Do you really think that an engineer had time to implement a backdoor strategy to nefariously work around a standard test procedure, unless it was explicitly
asked for imposed by his manager, who has the thumbscrews applied from those above?"
Like the (morally bankrupt) engineer uses his lunch breaks and family time to unilaterally code this or something? :palm:
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Based on what's been written about the Bosch warning, it seems like the code came from them, and VW just enabled it inappropriately.
So, no real coding required by anyone at Volkswagen.
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Ok, let's think about this;
It's not as simple as detecting the rear wheels spinning, but that might be part of it. Steering wheel and TC-button input involved. CAN bus stuff involved. Presumably it senses the test cycle by measuring wheel speed and matching this against some kind of internal model, and it's not just some "branch" of code that "happens" to be taken when X,Y,Z is satisified.
This is NOT something one rogue engineer could do without:
a) other engineers noticing this code seems to run on every "tick" (as part of safety evaluation, all parts of the code will be documented and checked, unintended acceleration etc. must be avoided in ECU firmware)
b) this being brought up in a "project review" meeting without unilateral agreement of the team and involved management;
c) documentation which should be periodically reviewed by internal review boards.
Perhaps the CEO is not aware of this, he cannot be aware of everything, but part of his job is to check that the targets he has set are reasonable and achievable, so if he failed to do this then he is at least partially responsible for demanding unrealistic results.
I also doubt the amount of code required would be feasible for one engineer to get away without anyone noting he's not working on X,Y,Z.
"One or two rogue engineers", I call bull.
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I really hope that at the end of this all we'll get a detailed description of how this happened.
I could imagine that something like this could originate from a structure of setting targets and coupling fulfillment of targets with getting your bonuses.
So maybe there never was the explicit command to implement a cheat but it was the result of a sick management structure combined with the human nature.
Like a high manager set the target to get into the US market and some levels down in the management someone set the target for this specific engine to reach the NOx limits.
Finally the project lead set targets for the engineers to find a solution. And so they got a solution and while reporting the cheat up the chain, it sounded better and better.
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The EA189 used a different approach for NOx trapping and can't be retrofitted with the AdBlue tech.
VW knew since 2008 that the new engine wouldn't pass emissions, so they either pulled the 2009 models for the US or cheat.
So it's not like they were caught with their pants down, they even had an early warning back on the 2nd quarter 2013 and did nothing.
So pretty much they decided not to wear pants for the last 7 years. There is no way upper management was not aware of any of this.
FWIW, the former CEO started on January 2007, so he was there for the whole fiasco, and he did work for Bosch at the beginning of his career in 1977 as a specialist assistant in the research division. Then he headed the refrigerant compressor development group "Substances and Processes" 1978-1981.
In 1993 he was the head of QA for VW.
After that appointed GM in 1994, and so on and on.
He is viewed as being "product-focused" and "methodical and precise", but also demanding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Winterkorn#Career (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Winterkorn#Career)
So I really doubt that he didn't know
In this article:
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/215615-early-report-sheds-first-light-on-why-vw-cheated-chairman-warns-scandal-could-kill-the-company (https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/215615-early-report-sheds-first-light-on-why-vw-cheated-chairman-warns-scandal-could-kill-the-company)
t’s still unclear exactly which executives made these decisions, but the former CEO, Martin Winterkorn, had a reputation for setting extremely ambitious goals and harshly disciplining subordinates that failed to meet them. The chances that a call this critical was made by some random low-level engineer are essentially zero.
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They say the fix will reduce performance and mileage.
That's another hidden tax by Big Government.
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"One or two rogue engineers", I call bull.
Of course that is bull.
Code like that is written by a team of people. so the entire team knew about it , including the team's management.
ECU code is not written by a lone wolf in a few hours. it is not 'slap it together and ship it'.
Throughout all testing and review these special routines should stand out.
Bosh warned VW not to use it as it was TEST only. So this was commissioned by VW and developed by Bosh. since it was commissioned the development team for the motor knew about it as they specified it.
questions :
- Why would you commission such "test" feature in the first place ?
- why release 'test' features in production code ?
and the big one :
- why enable the 'feature' <- and who took this decision ?
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I can imagine there is a valid use case for a cars engine management software to recognise it is undergoing an official test and then keep a record of all sensor and actuator data during that for subsequent analysis or repudiation of results. So it acts as a trigger for data storage only. Perhaps Bosch were presented with this idea and coded it on that basis. They realised it could also be used illegally and warned against it... Then the buck passes back to VW...
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"One or two rogue engineers", I call bull.
Of course that is bull.
Code like that is written by a team of people. so the entire team knew about it , including the team's management.
ECU code is not written by a lone wolf in a few hours. it is not 'slap it together and ship it'.
Throughout all testing and review these special routines should stand out.
Bosh warned VW not to use it as it was TEST only. So this was commissioned by VW and developed by Bosh. since it was commissioned the development team for the motor knew about it as they specified it.
questions :
- Why would you commission such "test" feature in the first place ?
- why release 'test' features in production code ?
and the big one :
- why enable the 'feature' <- and who took this decision ?
Remember, Audi was racing Diesel engines at LeMans. Who supplied that ECU software? What emissions regulations are in force there?
Why shouldn't Bosch supply VW/Audi TEST software for their race cars? If they then used it on their street legal cars, then that would be a problem. Oh, wait a minute, looks like maybe they did...
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"One or two rogue engineers", I call bull.
Of course that is bull.
When the story broke, I said to my wife, "Sounds like the work of a couple of interns."
Intern logic, "It does not say we can not do it, therefore we can(!)"
and the big one :
- why enable the 'feature' <- and who took this decision ?
During the conversation with my wife, a buyer in the aerospace business, we speculated as far as the reaction of the executive, had the culprit been a large American corporation. I was thinking specifically of Eric Schmidt answering to the UK Public Accounts Committee, how he justified Google paying so little tax. To paraphrase Schmidt, Google proudly complies with the letter of the law, in spite of the spirit of the law. Using the same logic, Schmidt and his ilk might argue, there is nothing wrong with the software and it is up to the California authorities to ensure their tests can not be defeated.
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During the conversation with my wife, a buyer in the aerospace business, we speculated as far as the reaction of the executive, had the culprit been a large American corporation. I was thinking specifically of Eric Schmidt answering to the UK Public Accounts Committee, how he justified Google paying so little tax. To paraphrase Schmidt, Google proudly complies with the letter of the law, in spite of the spirit of the law. Using the same logic, Schmidt and his ilk might argue, there is nothing wrong with the software and it is up to the California authorities to ensure their tests can not be defeated.
The law does include references to "defeat devices" which inhibit, modulate or otherwise affect the emissions system. Such a system that disables EGR during cold start. All "defeat devices" must be justified and documented. VW failed to document the specific "defeat device" that detects the test conditions, hence VW broke the law.
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The law does include references to "defeat devices" which inhibit, modulate or otherwise affect the emissions system. Such a system that disables EGR during cold start. All "defeat devices" must be justified and documented. VW failed to document the specific "defeat device" that detects the test conditions, hence VW broke the law.
It's probably just the firmware logic, but on the news they talk about 'device' which is misleading IMO.
As for 'the law', is it really a law or just a regulation by unelected bureaucrats?
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It's probably just the firmware logic, but on the news they talk about 'device' which is misleading IMO.
Not so sure, "device" is also used in computer contexts, for example "Duff's device". The rule was probably originally written when electronic control systems were fairly rare or limited in function, and something as sophisticated as this cheat would not be expected by the authors of the rule. So such a physical device could be, if throttle floored (past some defined stop) then turn off X,Y,Z circuits using a simple microswitch. A software device could do the same thing. (CAA originates from the 70s)
As for 'the law', is it really a law or just a regulation by unelected bureaucrats?
Actual laws. Notably, sections 203(a)(3)(B) and 203(a)(1) [42 U.S.C § 7522] of the Clean Air Act, passed by U.S. Congress.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522)
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As for 'the law', is it really a law or just a regulation by unelected bureaucrats?
Actual laws. Notably, sections 203(a)(3)(B) and 203(a)(1) [42 U.S.C § 7522] of the Clean Air Act, passed by U.S. Congress.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522)
Can you point for me where in the law the CO2 and NOx limit and the fines for breaking the laws are defined?
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As for 'the law', is it really a law or just a regulation by unelected bureaucrats?
Actual laws. Notably, sections 203(a)(3)(B) and 203(a)(1) [42 U.S.C § 7522] of the Clean Air Act, passed by U.S. Congress.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522)
Can you point for me where in the law the CO2 and NOx limit and the fines for breaking the laws are defined?
As per the link given by Tom, the emission standards are defined in section 7521 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7521). Penalties are defined elsewhere in the Clean Air act as a google search quickly shows (http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/criminal-provisions-clean-air-act).
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As for 'the law', is it really a law or just a regulation by unelected bureaucrats?
Actual laws. Notably, sections 203(a)(3)(B) and 203(a)(1) [42 U.S.C § 7522] of the Clean Air Act, passed by U.S. Congress.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7522)
Can you point for me where in the law the CO2 and NOx limit and the fines for breaking the laws are defined?
As per the link given by Tom, the emission standards are defined in section 7521 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/7521). Penalties are defined elsewhere in the Clean Air act as a google search quickly shows (http://www2.epa.gov/enforcement/criminal-provisions-clean-air-act).
From your link:
"1) The Administrator shall by regulation prescribe (and from time to time revise) in accordance with the provisions of this section, standards applicable to the emission of any air pollutant from any class or classes of new motor vehicles or new motor vehicle engines, which in his judgment cause, or contribute to, air pollution which may reasonably be anticipated to endanger public health or welfare."
Administrator = non elected bureaucrat.
regulation = a law made by a bureaucrat.
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regulation = a law made by a bureaucrat.
Bureaucrats? maybe. Unelected, no. As per The US Constitution (http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html) Congress (bureacrats?) are the ones who make the laws and the Judiciary enforces them. Is that somehow news to anyone?
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regulation = a law made by a bureaucrat.
Bureaucrats? maybe. Unelected, no. As per The US Constitution (http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html) Congress (bureacrats?) are the ones who make the laws and the Judiciary enforces them. Is that somehow news to anyone?
Congress (elected legislators) make 'laws'. Bureaucrats (unelected) make 'regulations'. In this case it's the EPA. Check the quote in my previous post regarding the 'Administrator' of the Clean Air Act.
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[
Congress (elected legislators) make 'laws'.
Yes, now you've got it!
Bureaucrats (unelected) make 'regulations'. In this case it's the EPA. Check the quote in my previous post regarding the 'Administrator' of the Clean Air Act.
The EPA administers and enforces (via the Judiciary)the Clean Air Act (the law passed by congress). They do not have any say in the requirements specified under the law. Sure, they may not consistently enforce it (as is often the case) or may incorrectly interpret it (and it's up to the Judiciary to correct that) but they do not get to say what it's requirements are - they are spelled out quite specifically in the law.
This is all basic high school civics class stuff. I suspect you know that and are just doing your usual trolling. But if you're trying to make the point that bureaucrats and bureaucracy sucks then you'll get no argument from me. I agree!. I suppose they're' a necessary evil of living in a civil society of laws.
Back on topic - VW obviously broke the law (and have admitted as much). They should pay heavily for their crime. I have no doubt that other automakers are also guilty of similar violations. It will be interesting to see where this goes.
Trying to pin it all on the engineers and low level management is just par for the course in the Corporatocracy. IMO any moral failings by those writing the firmware are dwarfed by the immorality of those at the higher level who knowingly implemented this.
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[
Congress (elected legislators) make 'laws'.
Yes, now you've got it!
Bureaucrats (unelected) make 'regulations'. In this case it's the EPA. Check the quote in my previous post regarding the 'Administrator' of the Clean Air Act.
The EPA administers and enforces (via the Judiciary)the Clean Air Act (the law passed by congress). They do not have any say in the requirements specified under the law. Sure, they may not consistently enforce it (as is often the case) or may incorrectly interpret it (and it's up to the Judiciary to correct that) but they do not get to say what it's requirements are - they are spelled out quite specifically in the law.
This is all basic high school civics class stuff. I suspect you know that and are just doing your usual trolling. But if you're trying to make the point that bureaucrats and bureaucracy sucks then you'll get no argument from me. I agree!. I suppose they're' a necessary evil of living in a civil society of laws.
Agencies such as the EPA set and publish every year thousands of regulations that we are forced to follow and you keep denying it because they didn't tell you about it in k12 civic class.
Oh, well, have a nice day.
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Agencies such as the EPA set and publish every year thousands of regulations that we are forced to follow and you keep denying it
I did no such thing. Of course they publish regulations. Where do those come from? (oh yeah, from the laws passed by congress i.e they administer those laws - which is their job)
You asked questions. They were answered. Don't blame me if the answers do not fit with your political ideology (which you constantly interject into every thread you can ::) ) .
If you're opposed to the Clean Air Act then why not just say that instead of all the political nonsense?
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Just to expand on the above for those who may not understand how this works in the USA:
Congress passes a law (in this case the Clean Air Act)
A government agency (in this case the EPA) is tasked with administering the law. That means translating the law into a set of regulations that the average individual or business can read and know what they need to do to comply with the law. (admittedly an imperfect process!).
The agency is also tasked with monitoring compliance with the law.
Any individual or business with legal standing may challenge a regulation and then the Courts can decided whether or not the agency (eg the EPA) correctly implemented the law.
So, the agency does not make the law and if their implementation of the law (via their written regulations) is incorrect it can (and definitely will!) be challenged and then the courts get to decide.
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Agencies such as the EPA set and publish every year thousands of regulations that we are forced to follow and you keep denying it
I did no such thing. Of course they publish regulations. Where do those come from? (oh yeah, from the laws passed by congress i.e they administer those laws - which is their job)
You asked questions. They were answered. Don't blame me if the answers do not fit with your political ideology (which you constantly interject into every thread you can ::) ) .
If you're opposed to the Clean Air Act then why not just say that instead of all the political nonsense?
OK.
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Agencies such as the EPA set and publish every year thousands of regulations that we are forced to follow and you keep denying it
I did no such thing. Of course they publish regulations. Where do those come from? (oh yeah, from the laws passed by congress i.e they administer those laws - which is their job)
You asked questions. They were answered. Don't blame me if the answers do not fit with your political ideology (which you constantly interject into every thread you can ::) ) .
If you're opposed to the Clean Air Act then why not just say that instead of all the political nonsense?
-----------------------------------
Just to expand on the above for those who may not understand how this works in the USA:
Congress passes a law (in this case the Clean Air Act)
A government agency (in this case the EPA) is tasked with administering the law. That means translating the law into a set of regulations that the average individual or business can read and know what they need to do to comply with the law. (admittedly an imperfect process!).
The agency is also tasked with monitoring compliance with the law.
Any individual or business with legal standing may challenge a regulation and then the Courts can decided whether or not the agency (eg the EPA) correctly implemented the law.
So, the agency does not make the law and if their implementation of the law (via their written regulations) is incorrect it can (and definitely will!) be challenged and then the courts get to decide.
You are correct in detail and in spirit, but are choosing not to acknowledge one of the tactics in the US legal system, which is to make attacks on or defenses of the law financially difficult. In the cases we are discussing the moves can be titanic - large corporations vs the entire government.
How it works is - 1. Bureaucracy interprets law through regulation. 2. Corporation takes issue with regulation. 3. Months or years of fact finding and negotiation occurs, with large dollars spent on both sides. 4. Goes to judiciary system where one of four things happens. A clear and decisive win for the regulation, a clear and decisive win for the corporation, a decision to go back for more facts, or a narrow decision favoring one side or the other. Only in the case of a clear and decisive decision does it really end at this point. All of the other decisions re-enter the process at one of the first 3 steps. Either the bureaucracy rewrites the regulations in an attempt to salvage part of what they were trying to accomplish, or the corporation modifies their request to attempt to patch the deficiency cited in the legal decision while still doing most of what they originally wanted to do. The goal in many cases is for one or other side to exhaust the other, to convince them that the resources spent fighting this battle are better spent elsewhere.
The Keystone Pipeline case is a current and famous example of a case that is in one of the first three steps of this process.
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You are correct in detail and in spirit, but are choosing not to acknowledge one of the tactics in the US legal system, which is to make attacks on or defenses of the law financially difficult. In the cases we are discussing the moves can be titanic - large corporations vs the entire government.
How it works is - 1. Bureaucracy interprets law through regulation. 2. Corporation takes issue with regulation. 3. Months or years of fact finding and negotiation occurs, with large dollars spent on both sides. 4. Goes to judiciary system where one of four things happens. A clear and decisive win for the regulation, a clear and decisive win for the corporation, a decision to go back for more facts, or a narrow decision favoring one side or the other. Only in the case of a clear and decisive decision does it really end at this point. All of the other decisions re-enter the process at one of the first 3 steps. Either the bureaucracy rewrites the regulations in an attempt to salvage part of what they were trying to accomplish, or the corporation modifies their request to attempt to patch the deficiency cited in the legal decision while still doing most of what they originally wanted to do. The goal in many cases is for one or other side to exhaust the other, to convince them that the resources spent fighting this battle are better spent elsewhere.
Yep, I agree completely, though I was not choosing not to acknowledge anything - just trying to give a concise description of the constitutional/legal framework.
It's a messy, inefficient business and one that favors those with the financial resources to challenge the regulations - i.e. large corporations or other large, organized and well funded special interest groups. The EPA's implementation of the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act have endured such challenges many times over the past 4 decades since the laws were passed.
I have no doubt that if the current situation with VW leads to investigation and prosecution of other automakers - the law will be challenged on this front as well.
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I have no doubt that if the current situation with VW leads to investigation and prosecution of other automakers - the law will be challenged on this front as well.
You keep saying this, but there is zero evidence that any other automaker cheated in this way...
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How it works is - 1. Bureaucracy interprets law through regulation. 2. Corporation takes issue with regulation....
The EPA bureaucrats go also after private citizens, not just big cooperations. For example, seek $16M ($37,000 per day) in fines from this farmer
http://watchdog.org/235785/epa-lawsuit-pond-fines/ (http://watchdog.org/235785/epa-lawsuit-pond-fines/)
A rancher is taking the Environmental Protection Agency to federal court, asking a judge to stop the agency from fining him more than $16 million because he ildilt a small pond on his property.
Andy Johnson of Fort Bridger, Wyoming says he made sure to get the proper permits from his state government before building the pond.
They are one sided zealots that don't consider the implications of the regulations they make as the supreme court acknowledged here:
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/246423-supreme-court-overturns-epa-air-pollution-rule (http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/246423-supreme-court-overturns-epa-air-pollution-rule)
In the majority ruling, Justice Antonin Scalia concluded that the EPA “unreasonably” interpreted the Clean Air Act when it decided not to consider industry compliance costs and whether regulating the pollutants is “appropriate and necessary.”
While the agency is afforded a certain level of power to interpret the law, the court wrote, “EPA strayed well beyond the bounds of reasonable interpretation in concluding that cost is not a factor relevant to the appropriateness of regulating power plants.”
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I have no doubt that if the current situation with VW leads to investigation and prosecution of other automakers - the law will be challenged on this front as well.
You keep saying this, but there is zero evidence that any other automaker cheated in this way...
I agree, that's why I used the word IF!
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I have no doubt that if the current situation with VW leads to investigation and prosecution of other automakers - the law will be challenged on this front as well.
You keep saying this, but there is zero evidence that any other automaker cheated in this way...
I agree, that's why I used the word IF!
But you previously said:
I have no doubt that other automakers are also guilty of similar violations.
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I have no doubt that if the current situation with VW leads to investigation and prosecution of other automakers - the law will be challenged on this front as well.
You keep saying this, but there is zero evidence that any other automaker cheated in this way...
I agree, that's why I used the word IF!
But you previously said:
I have no doubt that other automakers are also guilty of similar violations.
It's true! I have an opinion (is that ok?)- which I stated once! I hardly "keep saying it" and I agree that at this point there's been no public evidence (that I'm aware of).
BTW several others in this thread have expressed the same opinion - repeatedly! No evidence made public that I've seen yet but it seems IMHO likely to be true - though probably not as egregious a violation as VWs - IMO - just a guess....
Also -while not exactly the same thing, this report from EU Transport and Enviroment (http://www.qualenergia.it/sites/default/files/articolo-doc/Real%20World%20Fuel%20Consumption%20v15_final.pdf) does document how companies manipulate test procedures to bypass CO2 and fuel economy standards.
I'd be happy to find to find out that it is only VW manipulating the NOx emission testing. I hope that's true!
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The law does include references to "defeat devices" which inhibit, modulate or otherwise affect the emissions system. Such a system that disables EGR during cold start. All "defeat devices" must be justified and documented. VW failed to document the specific "defeat device" that detects the test conditions, hence VW broke the law.
It's probably just the firmware logic, but on the news they talk about 'device' which is misleading IMO.
As for 'the law', is it really a law or just a regulation by unelected bureaucrats?
I've been saying this every time the topic pops up.
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I have no doubt that if the current situation with VW leads to investigation and prosecution of other automakers - the law will be challenged on this front as well.
You keep saying this, but there is zero evidence that any other automaker cheated in this way...
Maybe not this instant, but it has been happening regularly since 1973. Generally the EPA identifies it early, negotiations happen and it gets solved. Sometimes it gets solved before the car hits the market, sometimes after. This is just a slightly bigger and more inflamed version, but to say there is zero evidence is a bridge too far. There are plenty of documented cases, they just don't often make the news.
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The law does include references to "defeat devices" which inhibit, modulate or otherwise affect the emissions system. Such a system that disables EGR during cold start. All "defeat devices" must be justified and documented. VW failed to document the specific "defeat device" that detects the test conditions, hence VW broke the law.
It's probably just the firmware logic, but on the news they talk about 'device' which is misleading IMO.
As for 'the law', is it really a law or just a regulation by unelected bureaucrats?
I've been saying this every time the topic pops up.
The reason it's called a 'device' is when the law was written it was a 'device'. Specifically a solenoid valve in a vacuum circuit on a Pontiac carb.
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Meanwhile... VW stock went up 35% in the last week
https://twitter.com/mikko/status/653769532637618176 (https://twitter.com/mikko/status/653769532637618176)
(http://i.imgur.com/G18WwWG.jpg)
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Meanwhile... VW stock went up 35% in the last week
https://twitter.com/mikko/status/653769532637618176 (https://twitter.com/mikko/status/653769532637618176)
(http://i.imgur.com/G18WwWG.jpg)
Yep, if I were in the stocks market I would have bought some stock back then.
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Well, last week it was 2 rogue (morally bankrupt) engineers.
Now it appears at least 30 managers were involved... At least the BBC TV News reports on a Der Spiegel investigation
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/volkswagen-dutzende-manager-in-vw-skandal-verwickelt-a-1057741.html (http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/volkswagen-dutzende-manager-in-vw-skandal-verwickelt-a-1057741.html)
I really should learn German. My nan is Austrian.
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VW have fixed the problem and will be converting all cars as fast as possible. :-DD
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So, could this scandal be down to 10 or less persons at VW??? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34547229 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34547229)
I find it difficult to believe that <=10 engineers/managers could perpetrate this??
Surely there are more than 10 people involved in the development of the EA189 engine firmware and testing, perhaps everyone else involved on the periphery turned a blind eye?
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Usually software development for ECUs is quite distributed. Like the low level CAN expert develops a CAN driver, another guy configures it, other guys implement the high level software that use the actual data from the CAN and so on. Finally there are people who configure/adapt the software behavior by changing calibration constants, curves and maps.
Each complex function block like control of the SCR injection valve usually has dozens if not hundreds of calibration possibilities. It's even possible that the function itself sounded harmless and was activated just by calibration.
I can't actually imagine that there was a specification called "NOx Cheating". As suggested somewhere above, I could even imagine that there never was an explicit order to cheat and that this all happened by unrealistic targets given from each level in the command chain to the next lower level and euphemizing the facts towards the next higher level.
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So, could this scandal be down to 10 or less persons at VW???
Less than 1 was found at the GM ignition switch failure that killed over 100 people.
So wait for the VW news to report less than 1 has been found :-DD because it will come down to a "misunderstanding" or my favorite political expression "it had no influence on my decision" (when caught taking bribes - and it works!)
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Well, maybe Bosch's business policies infected VW after all. Not that VW is not guilty for using the test software but it seems the morally bankrupt engineers are at Bosch itself:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/20/dyson_says_bosch_fudged_vacuum_tests/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/20/dyson_says_bosch_fudged_vacuum_tests/)
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Well, maybe Bosch's business policies infected VW after all. Not that VW is not guilty for using the test software but it seems the morally bankrupt engineers are at Bosch itself:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/20/dyson_says_bosch_fudged_vacuum_tests/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/20/dyson_says_bosch_fudged_vacuum_tests/)
As stated in that article, the complaint makes no sense. Why should the vacuum cleaner run at full power when there's no dirt? That would not provide any benefit to anyone. Dyson appears to be the morally bankrupt party, not Bosch.
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Dyson may well be correct - but, sadly, no one really cares.
Bosch have form with Dyson, a couple of years back Dyson accused them of industrial espionage...
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Are people that over use the words 'morally bankrupt' morally bankrupt?
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Are people that over use the words 'morally bankrupt' morally bankrupt?
No. They're just lazy.
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Are people that over use the words 'morally bankrupt' morally bankrupt?
There are other expressions for that, like moral superiority or political correct.
In general, often used as compensation or to hide the fact they are pedophiles.
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Are people that over use the words 'morally bankrupt' morally bankrupt?
Probably but since I only used it once in my life and because of the subject then i'm less morally bankrupt than you because you used it twice.... Oh snap! I guess we are on par now ;)
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I thought about the phrase before I started this thread, and whilst "morally bankrupt" is quite a strong phrase it does sum up my thoughts at the time of posting (& pretty much my thoughts now).
Certainly been amusing seeing the number of (tongue-in-cheek) threads that have now used this phrase.
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Well, maybe Bosch's business policies infected VW after all. Not that VW is not guilty for using the test software but it seems the morally bankrupt engineers are at Bosch itself:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/20/dyson_says_bosch_fudged_vacuum_tests/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/10/20/dyson_says_bosch_fudged_vacuum_tests/)
As stated in that article, the complaint makes no sense. Why should the vacuum cleaner run at full power when there's no dirt? That would not provide any benefit to anyone. Dyson appears to be the morally bankrupt party, not Bosch.
What's next? That the efficiency of overclockable CPUs are always measured with no overclock applied, but in real use, the CPUs are likely to be overclocked and thus the efficiency dramatically lower? (Those who don't overclock probably would not spend the premium for an overclockable CPU.)
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I thought about the phrase before I started this thread, and whilst "morally bankrupt" is quite a strong phrase it does sum up my thoughts at the time of posting (& pretty much my thoughts now).
Which brings the quotation, is fcb a coward for not expressing his opinion directly and phrasing it as a question instead to avoid accountability?
You get the point :)
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There are other expressions for that, like moral superiority or political correct.
In general, often used as compensation or to hide the fact they are pedophiles.
You use those expressions an awful lot, is that a confession? ;)
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Opel (GM) too? A NEFZ test showed that a Opel Zafira 1.6 CDTi produced 2-4 times more NOx when all four wheels are turned instead of just the two front wheels. Sources (in German): http://heise.de/-2853995 (http://heise.de/-2853995) and http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/opel-umwelthilfe-erhebt-manipulationsvorwuerfe-a-1059319.html (http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/opel-umwelthilfe-erhebt-manipulationsvorwuerfe-a-1059319.html)
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The Zafira's produce even more pollution when you turn the air con on and the car goes up in flames.
It was on the TV last night, Vauxhall are recalling them to replace the fan and control resistor.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/vauxhall-may-recall-zafira-cars-after-more-than-a-100-drivers-report-their-vehicles-spontaneously-a6703936.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/vauxhall-may-recall-zafira-cars-after-more-than-a-100-drivers-report-their-vehicles-spontaneously-a6703936.html)
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I thought about the phrase before I started this thread, and whilst "morally bankrupt" is quite a strong phrase it does sum up my thoughts at the time of posting (& pretty much my thoughts now).
Which brings the quotation, is fcb a coward for not expressing his opinion directly and phrasing it as a question instead to avoid accountability?
You get the point :)
As the evidence was thin on the ground and VW hadn't admitted it had done anything wrong publicly - I would be foolish to accuse VW firmware engineers of moral bankruptcy. Anyways, the post was designed to highlight this issue and stimulate discussion. It did that.
There are probably many examples of software engineers doing things that perhaps feel borderline legal or borderline immoral, one recent example is that of a very well known "payday loan" company in UK - if you had insufficient money in your account, the first payment would bounce - their system would immediately recognize this and then apply for £10, if this was successful it would then immediately apply for another £10 and so on. So if your repayment was £100 and you only had £90 in your account, the system would drain your account with 9x £10 transactions. This is now banned in the UK.
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There are probably many examples of software engineers doing things that perhaps feel borderline legal or borderline immoral, one recent example is that of a very well known "payday loan" company in UK - if you had insufficient money in your account, the first payment would bounce - their system would immediately recognize this and then apply for £10, if this was successful it would then immediately apply for another £10 and so on. So if your repayment was £100 and you only had £90 in your account, the system would drain your account with 9x £10 transactions. This is now banned in the UK.
Immoral and morally bankrupt are very different things :)
As for that loan company, I don't see why it's OK to take 100 if you have 100 but not OK to take 90 if you have only 90. Taking money from others and then complain when you need to return it is immoral.
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Here garnishee orders are common, to the point where some people have almost all the salary taken off before they get it. There are laws about it, and they are due for update sometime in the future, but do not hold your breath about it.
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I read in the news today that the EU has decided to raise the diesel emission limits to twice the current limit when a new drive cycle test is introduced :palm: Really? :palm: What is the use of a new test then :palm:
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I read in the news today that the EU has decided to raise the diesel emission limits to twice the current limit when a new drive cycle test is introduced :palm: Really? :palm: What is the use of a new test then :palm:
Do you have a source for that?
Usually when things don't make sense, follow the money. Then they do.
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Do you have a source for that?
Usually when things don't make sense, follow the money. Then they do.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/96092c6c-7d90-11e5-a1fe-567b37f80b64.html (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/96092c6c-7d90-11e5-a1fe-567b37f80b64.html)
The decision stipulates that manufacturers will be allowed to exceed legal levels of NOx by 110 per cent between September 2017 and the start of 2020.
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There are probably many examples of software engineers doing things that perhaps feel borderline legal or borderline immoral, one recent example is that of a very well known "payday loan" company in UK - if you had insufficient money in your account, the first payment would bounce - their system would immediately recognize this and then apply for £10, if this was successful it would then immediately apply for another £10 and so on. So if your repayment was £100 and you only had £90 in your account, the system would drain your account with 9x £10 transactions. This is now banned in the UK.
Immoral and morally bankrupt are very different things :)
As for that loan company, I don't see why it's OK to take 100 if you have 100 but not OK to take 90 if you have only 90. Taking money from others and then complain when you need to return it is immoral.
Almost as immoral as the >1000% APR (not an exaggeration, that's a literal number) these guys charge. Of course no one with any sense would go near one of these loans, which is the absolute genius of the plan. But we can't be regulating interfering oppressing the good men and women of the financial services sector with regulation, no no that would be unfair and anti competitive.
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Do you have a source for that?
Usually when things don't make sense, follow the money. Then they do.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/96092c6c-7d90-11e5-a1fe-567b37f80b64.html (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/96092c6c-7d90-11e5-a1fe-567b37f80b64.html)
The decision stipulates that manufacturers will be allowed to exceed legal levels of NOx by 110 per cent between September 2017 and the start of 2020.
So I read that In Wednesday’s discussion, countries such as France and Spain argued that the European car industry needed more time to meet targets for hazardous nitrogen oxides (NOx) that exacerbate heart and lung diseases. Only the Netherlands voted against the measure, according to people briefed on the vote.
I don't know what volume Spain and France produce but it's "veeeery interesting" that at least according to the article Germany is not being mentioned as "arguing".
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Spain has a car industry?
Turns out Spain has the second largest car industry in Europe, which is a surprise, but explains their actions I guess
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Spain has a car industry?
SEAT
Second largest manufacturer in Europe and 9th in the world, didn't know that!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_Spain
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Seat are, of course, part of the VW-Audi group.... :-X
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The Zafira's produce even more pollution when you turn the air con on and the car goes up in flames.
It was on the TV last night, Vauxhall are recalling them to replace the fan and control resistor.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/vauxhall-may-recall-zafira-cars-after-more-than-a-100-drivers-report-their-vehicles-spontaneously-a6703936.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/vauxhall-may-recall-zafira-cars-after-more-than-a-100-drivers-report-their-vehicles-spontaneously-a6703936.html)
Zafira... more like Zafirea. ;) That's quite a bit more emissions too! :popcorn:
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Almost as immoral as the >1000% APR (not an exaggeration, that's a literal number) these guys charge. Of course no one with any sense would go near one of these loans, which is the absolute genius of the plan. But we can't be regulating interfering oppressing the good men and women of the financial services sector with regulation, no no that would be unfair and anti competitive.
There is nothing necessarily "immoral" about those short term loan companies. The APRs seem so scary simply because APR is absolutely not a figure meant for short term loans, it was specifically created to allow long term loans to be compared.
Example:
Borrow at 1000% APR (OMG! an immoral payday loan!) over 5 days and you'll pay just under £1.14 back for every £1 borrowed. 14% interest, not too scary eh?
Borrow at 6.5% APR (a reasonable mortgage rate in the UK before the crash) over 25 years and you'll pay back over £2 for every £ borrowed! 100% interest! Paying back over double! Never heard anyone scream how that's immoral though...
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VW have now discovered/fessed upto "defeat devices" in the 3L diesel engine. These are used in big Audi's and also Porsches.
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Spain has a car industry?
SEAT
Second largest manufacturer in Europe and 9th in the world, didn't know that!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_Spain
The first generation Mercedes-Benz-Vito W638 was made there.
I read in the news today that the EU has decided to raise the diesel emission limits to twice the current limit when a new drive cycle test is introduced :palm: Really? :palm: What is the use of a new test then :palm:
I had to look it up to see if it wasn't a hoax when I first heard that. So untypically-EU.
Normally they are on the first line to introduce new norms/labels/laws that makes life more expensive/difficult and chase industry away.
So now, factories only have to cheat half to comply to the new norm.
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VW have now discovered/fessed upto "defeat devices" in the 3L diesel engine. These are used in big Audi's and also Porsches.
Hahaha... Oh god this is actually quite funny. They specifically said the 3.0L engine was not affected! They lied, AGAIN, about lying! They had ample opportunity to fess up there and then and did not. Hilarious. Did they think they would get away with that too?
VW in the US is done for. I don't expect them to return. Their diesel reputation is in tatters and they may struggle to market diesel cars.
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Another source of error could be non-linearity in the current/versus needle position but that is usually corrected by stretching/compacting the scale a little bit.
dashboard electronics have long switched to stepper motor drivers for the needles ... if you have a car where , at powerup, the needles go to the endstop and return : those are stepper driven.
My car doesn't do that. It also sounds cumbersome to use stepper motors where a simple coil & magnet seem much more reliable and easier to drive.
I thought a servo would work well for the needle position
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Another source of error could be non-linearity in the current/versus needle position but that is usually corrected by stretching/compacting the scale a little bit.
dashboard electronics have long switched to stepper motor drivers for the needles ... if you have a car where , at powerup, the needles go to the endstop and return : those are stepper driven.
My car doesn't do that. It also sounds cumbersome to use stepper motors where a simple coil & magnet seem much more reliable and easier to drive.
I thought a servo would work well for the needle position
I would imagine due to lack of direct feedback a stepper is considerably cheaper to implement. No encoder or complex controller necessary.
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Another source of error could be non-linearity in the current/versus needle position but that is usually corrected by stretching/compacting the scale a little bit.
dashboard electronics have long switched to stepper motor drivers for the needles ... if you have a car where , at powerup, the needles go to the endstop and return : those are stepper driven.
My car doesn't do that. It also sounds cumbersome to use stepper motors where a simple coil & magnet seem much more reliable and easier to drive.
I thought a servo would work well for the needle position
I would imagine due to lack of direct feedback a stepper is considerably cheaper to implement. No encoder or complex controller necessary.
I was thinking of something like the servos in R/C planes/helicopters/cars/otherthings
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I was thinking of something like the servos in R/C planes/helicopters/cars/otherthings
Yes, but such devices require feedback and analog drive of the motor.
A stepper doesn't need feedback, except to detect endstop, which is done using a simple current sense.
Probably a case of cost being lower in the case of the stepper solution - may not be significant.
Could turn out that a stepper is more reliable, as potentiometers can get contaminated, which could cause erratic behaviour (and servos using digital encoders would be expensive.)
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;D Are you guys kidding me? :wtf: Never seen an analogue meter with a moving needle? Take a spring and an electromagnet to move a needle. Needle movement is proportional to current and perfectly predictable using some math and basic physics. No need for feedback :palm:
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;D Are you guys kidding me? :wtf: Never seen an analogue meter with a moving needle? Take a spring and an electromagnet to move a needle. Needle movement is proportional to current and perfectly predictable using some math and basic physics. No need for feedback :palm:
We were referring to servos, which typically use brushed motors and gearboxes as an alternative to stepper motors.
I am aware that ordinary moving coil meters are still used. My car uses them. When I start the engine, even if it is warm, the dials jitter, like temperature, so I guess they run from the unregulated battery supply. Somewhat concerned about the accuracy should the battery be low...
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We were referring to servos, which typically use brushed motors and gearboxes as an alternative to stepper motors.
Adding a gearbox and feedback element is not going to increase reliability or accuracy and certainly not decrease cost. Why are you considering it again?
I am aware that ordinary moving coil meters are still used. My car uses them. When I start the engine, even if it is warm, the dials jitter, like temperature, so I guess they run from the unregulated battery supply. Somewhat concerned about the accuracy should the battery be low...
If you are concerned about the accuracy of your dashboard display, have a look into the "accuracy" of the senders that feed the information *to* your display, and you won't worry about the display ever again. Some of them are specced at+/- 20%, none of them are calibrated and all of them drift. The user of the dash board needs to know things like, "is my oil pressure 1 or 4 bar", "is my temperature 90 or 120C". Worrying about anything more accurate than that indicates you probably have not looked too closely at the system as a whole and are looking to try and roll the turd in "sparkles" to make it look better.
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I was thinking of something like the servos in R/C planes/helicopters/cars/otherthings
Yes, but such devices require feedback and analog drive of the motor.
A stepper doesn't need feedback, except to detect endstop, which is done using a simple current sense.
Probably a case of cost being lower in the case of the stepper solution - may not be significant.
Could turn out that a stepper is more reliable, as potentiometers can get contaminated, which could cause erratic behaviour (and servos using digital encoders would be expensive.)
Detecting stall on a stepper motor is non-trivial, there are some really good drivers about now that can do this, but it isn't as simple as detecting current.
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This scandal just keeps on growing, as well as the 3L diesel engine having been fitted with a "defeat device", it now looks like some petrol engined cars have 'anomalous' CO2 emissions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34712435 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34712435)
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-vw-admits-800000-cars-have-false-co2-and-mpg-certification (http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-vw-admits-800000-cars-have-false-co2-and-mpg-certification)
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VW have now discovered/fessed upto "defeat devices" in the 3L diesel engine. These are used in big Audi's and also Porsches.
Hahaha... Oh god this is actually quite funny. They specifically said the 3.0L engine was not affected! They lied, AGAIN, about lying! They had ample opportunity to fess up there and then and did not. Hilarious. Did they think they would get away with that too?
VW in the US is done for. I don't expect them to return. Their diesel reputation is in tatters and they may struggle to market diesel cars.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Consumers don't seem to care about emission standards at all. They just want a car which works and VW seems to deliver that given the fact VW sales are still increasing.
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I wouldn't be so sure about that. Consumers don't seem to care about emission standards at all. They just want a car which works and VW seems to deliver that given the fact VW sales are still increasing.
Actually the typical VW buyer (in UK at least) pays more for a VW for its prestige and higher resale value. VW are renown for high residuals while the likes of Ford are known for a 50% drop in value as soon as leave the forecourt. I would think the big hit is something consumers do care about.
Then there are those who actually do worry about emissions and fell for the tiny 3 cylinder turbo engine hype encouraged by governments who set the standards for zero road tax etc. Of course most of them really wanted a shopping trolley car with very low running costs. Again they are not going to be happy with the "fixes"
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VW have now discovered/fessed upto "defeat devices" in the 3L diesel engine. These are used in big Audi's and also Porsches.
That is not correct. The EPA said they had found this, but so far VW has denied it.
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I wouldn't be so sure about that. Consumers don't seem to care about emission standards at all. They just want a car which works and VW seems to deliver that given the fact VW sales are still increasing.
yep, bloomberg just reported big bump in VW sales after diesel thing blew up :)
VW have now discovered/fessed upto "defeat devices" in the 3L diesel engine. These are used in big Audi's and also Porsches.
That is not correct. The EPA said they had found this, but so far VW has denied it.
Dont know about denied, Porsche already stopped selling 3L model voluntarily
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/03/volkswagen_800000_of_our_cars_may_have_cheated_in_co2_tests/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/03/volkswagen_800000_of_our_cars_may_have_cheated_in_co2_tests/)
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I wouldn't be so sure about that. Consumers don't seem to care about emission standards at all. They just want a car which works and VW seems to deliver that given the fact VW sales are still increasing.
yep, bloomberg just reported big bump in VW sales after diesel thing blew up :)
0.2% is a big bump? :-//
New-car sales roared in October, rising 13.6% — even as Volkswagen lagged — and raising hopes that the industry may hit the highest sales levels in 15 years if the momentum continues.
...
Sales of the namesake Volkswagen brand rose only 0.2%, though the company's overall sales — which include the luxury Audi brand — rose 5.2%.
VW have now discovered/fessed upto "defeat devices" in the 3L diesel engine. These are used in big Audi's and also Porsches.
That is not correct. The EPA said they had found this, but so far VW has denied it.
Dont know about denied, Porsche already stopped selling 3L model voluntarily
Yes, denied:
U.S. environmental regulators said on Monday that similar "defeat devices" were installed on larger 3.0 liter engines used in luxury sport utility vehicles from Porsche and Audi, although VW has denied those allegations.
Porsche's North American unit said it was discontinuing sales of Porsche Cayenne diesel sport utility vehicles until further notice, citing the allegations.
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0.2% is a big bump? :-//
compared to -20% predictions
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I wouldn't be so sure about that. Consumers don't seem to care about emission standards at all. They just want a car which works and VW seems to deliver that given the fact VW sales are still increasing.
The consumers want also a product that is put in a low tax scale by the VW scammers and the Govt scammers.
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VW have now discovered/fessed upto "defeat devices" in the 3L diesel engine. These are used in big Audi's and also Porsches.
That is not correct. The EPA said they had found this, but so far VW has denied it.
Letting aside the wrong expression "defeat device" which is a legal term but is often misunderstood by the press etc. as a separate physical device or at least a separate "program" installed in the ECU:
the fact is that no Diesel in a normal car will fulfill the NOx regulation all the time. To achieve this, the urea tank would have to be much larger or to be refilled much more often.
Therefore you can easily force every Diesel car in a state where it exceeds the stated NOx values. As every car on this planet has different CO2 emission depending on its operating state, also the NOx emissions vary a lot.
Not only because of physical parameters but also because of different optimizations to save fuel and/or urea.
Until VW releases more details, it's unclear what they define as cheating and what as optimization. If they deny cheating on the 3L Diesel engines while they admitted CO2 cheating on 800k Diesel/gasoline engines without being forced to do so, I would assume that either the EPA is wrong or more likely they have a different definitions of cheating.
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The 3L TDI "defeat device" affects Porsche SUVs (Cayenne, Macan, etc.) and large VW/Audi group vehicles.
It consists of software which disables the cold soak mode for 1,371 seconds in certain conditions. Certain conditions include rear wheels losing traction and very cold exterior temperatures. The kicker is the federal test lasts for exactly 1,370 seconds so the low emissions reduced power mode only operational for one second longer is somewhat suspicious and reeks of an attempt to cheat the test. I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but it seems pretty unlikely to be a coincidence.
IMHO, federal regulators should also test engine power and torque, to make sure the car meets these advertised specifications during testing. A car with 20% less power and torque during test could not be advertised as having the additional power or torque.
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Meanwhile they developed a fix for the problem: As you expect, a software update without the cheat. But a tube with a plastic grid :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr3t523bn0Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr3t523bn0Q)
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The funny thing is that the idea to use some kind of grid to straighten the air flow is pretty old and was used in MAF sensors for more than a decade.
I understand that VW "optimized" this thing away and now presents an old idea as new ingenious solution.
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The funny thing is that the idea to use some kind of grid to straighten the air flow is pretty old and was used in MAF sensors for more than a decade.
I understand that VW "optimized" this thing away and now presents an old idea as new ingenious solution.
Which begs the question, did they remove this simple grid airflow device because an accountant actually costed it as 0.1E-99 cents per vehicle cost saving, or maybe it was a real restriction on engine performance?
If it no longer affects performance then it appears that VW consider the price of a peoples health to be worth that infinitesimal bean counters cost saving. :wtf:
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Which begs the question, did they remove this simple grid airflow device because an accountant actually costed it as 0.1E-99 cents per vehicle cost saving, or maybe it was a real restriction on engine performance?
If it no longer affects performance then it appears that VW consider the price of a peoples health to be worth that infinitesimal bean counters cost saving. :wtf:
I think it's pretty much clear that means to straighten the air flow don't affect the performance in a negative way. Quite the opposite - the MAF sensor works better this way and thus the whole regulation is improved.
So the only reason why they could have removed it is to save money. While it seems ridiculous to save a few cent, you must keep in mind that they do this for each and every part. If they save 1€ with hundreds of these small cost reductions, they save 1 Million Euros for one Million sold cars. Maybe enough for some manager to reach his targets.
Another question is the magnitude of improvement you can achieve which such simple means. I find it hard to believe it's more than a very low percentage (like 1% or so) regarding fuel consumption and emission.
My best guess it: the software changes to reduce NOx increase the fuel consumption by a few percent in a typical test cycle. So they put the air flow straightener back and hope it will make this increase in consumption a bit smaller so it's small enough not to be noticed. Maybe they also think that doing some modification instead of only the SW update makes the recall more believable.
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Maybe they also think that doing some modification instead of only the SW update makes the recall more believable.
This is what it looks like :/
vw: look, we totally didnt program car computers to cheat on purpose, someone forgot to mount this doohickey! for realzies!!1
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The original MAFS already has a grid to get a more laminated flow at the sensor element. This additional grid, about 150 mm away from the original grid is suppose to add to the smoothness of the flow at the sensor. In reality it will not do much at all. It seems to me that VW is nor really sure about solutions and they are just showing some smoke.
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I have just been reading that VW made the cars reduce or cut off the DEF when on the road so that drivers did not require to have the tank refilled so often and they could use a smaller tank of fluid that weighed less and took up less room inside the car. I suspect that the flow grid is just a blind. The real work will be done with a software update that will boost the DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) injection rate and the owners will have to make frequent visits to the dealers to get the tank topped up, or will just run the tank dry and emit even more NOX than before.
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I have just been reading that VW made the cars reduce or cut off the DEF when on the road so that drivers did not require to have the tank refilled so often and they could use a smaller tank of fluid that weighed less and took up less room inside the car. I suspect that the flow grid is just a blind. The real work will be done with a software update that will boost the DEF (diesel exhaust fluid) injection rate and the owners will have to make frequent visits to the dealers to get the tank topped up, or will just run the tank dry and emit even more NOX than before.
I believe that many of the cars affected do not have an AdBlue (DEF) system fitted.
I'm also skeptical about the airflow grid - but you have to think that VW are watching this issue like a hawk and this isn't a 'blind'. My guess is that the engineers already knew what to do to make the vehicle compliant before this story broke, they probably weren't allowed to do the actual experiments until recently though.
As VW have said that the fuel economy won't be affected by these changes (including software), I'm assuming that performance will be lower.
And back to a point I raised towards the beginning of this thread - VW will most likely become liable for almost any failures with these engines they have 'tweaked' - that will be expensive for them.
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I believe that many of the cars affected do not have an AdBlue (DEF) system fitted.
My understanding is that the smaller engines (1.2L) with Continental ECUs have a storage catalyst (no urea injection) while the larger engines (1.6L and 2.0L) with Bosch ECUs use SCR (selective catalytic reduction -> urea injection).
The original statement was that the engines with Bosch ECUs just need a software update and the engines with Continental ECUs need more than that.
However this airflow straightener thing is just the solution planned for the EU and for the larger engines (1.6L and 2.0L) with SCR. There is no solution yet for the 1.2L engine with storage catalyst.
There is also no solution yet for the US.
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Necro thread resurrection, just watching this on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZSU1FPDiao)
The exhaust emissions scandal („Dieselgate“) [32c3] from CCCen
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Well, you can skip the fat guy as he doesn't tell anything new but the 2nd guy confirms what you would have thought: VW used the calibration constants to detect the driving cycle and switch to an alternate "limp home" SCR model where they optimize NOx. It's a shame though that they didn't find anybody with more insight in the business. Both guys made some statements that are wrong or misleading.
I guess some people would be very interested how he dumped the software without inside knowledge. Usually JTAG is deactivated in production ECUs and without very detailed knowledge of the security mechanisms you don't have a chance to access the software. Honestly I suspect he got the image from the same obscure sources where he got the A2L files. It's probably not a coincidence that his ECU is "chip tuned".
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EDC17 doesn't seem to be too hard to dump, there seem to be tools out there to do it. There are several forums with all of the details needed to do what he did if you know where to look.
Not that I've played with it myself. I lost interest after ME7.1.1.
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OK, then either Bosch/VW screwed the security mechanism up or some very clever/motvated people figured it out.
Anyway, I still find it questionable that he made his investigation with a chip tuned ECU. After all chip tuning is all about messing up with calibration to increase horse power without caring much about emissions.
Besides, some of his assumptions are based on questionable A2L files which might be only valid for other software versions or calibration variants.
E.g. I don't think that SCR model/state selection has anything to do with the acoustic function (which, as far as I know is about manifold resonance).
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Renault may now be indicted in the scandal:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35309674 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35309674)
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code] Renault may now be indicted in the scandal:
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35309674[/url]
The Merkel ventilator's has been activated and it distributes the shit for all people, when europarliament had knowledge of exhaust fraud since two years ago(for all automotive corporations).
But as germanies corporation were implicated,it was silenced.
The problem is that EEUU put a high sanction in change at Europe will leave without sanction.
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I think you will find that if the engine has Bosch injection equipment the car will have the ability to cheat even if that is not switched on.
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... when europarliament had knowledge of exhaust fraud since two years ago(for all automotive corporations).
But as germanies corporation were implicated,it was silenced.
Do you have some more info about this, or a link?
Since the beginning I think the real gangsters are the ones that were payed to check, and refused, closed the eyes.
Silencing the news in Germany? Heard that again some weeks ago.
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WELCOME TO MATRIX :-DD
The report title is "Mind the Gap! Why official car fuel economy figures don’t match up to reality"
http://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/Real%20World%20Fuel%20Consumption%20v15_final.pdf (http://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/files/publications/Real%20World%20Fuel%20Consumption%20v15_final.pdf)
Silencing the news in Germany? Heard that again some weeks ago.
Did you remenber the Murdered Spanish Cucumber that occurred in Germany? Do you know the real origin? It was a germinated soja seed IN GERMANY and they accussed to spanish producter causing great lose economies.
When the producters went to reclaim to Germany, the german goverment threated with give up to buy spanish vegetables.
But of course that don't show in the newspapers because they leaves very fine.
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Yeah, yeah the world conspiracy again. But try to keep at least a bit to the facts and read the English Wikipedia entry regarding the HUS epidemic. Even though the German one is much more detailed, but I guess you would argue it's written by our glorious leader herself.
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Yeah, yeah the world conspiracy again
Do the lions conspire against the gazelles? NO, it is nature
but I guess you would argue it's written by our glorious leader herself.
Hurry up, i have a hearsay that the world lords or some minister are planning a night of the long knives against your leader :-DD
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The issue shouldn't be viewed as a vw issue, least engineering issue.
Diesel has been known as a carcinogen, and as dangerous as asbestos, per WHO, an organization the European liberals typical worship everyday.
But for their environmental goals of fighting against co2, they have decided apparently it is better for humanity to breath a carcinogen than co2.
They made the same dumb mistake on nuclear power too.
All for their fetish against co2.
Oh, if you are interested, look into the commission investigating this who scandal.
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Well, guys, is it so hard to keep to the facts to some degree? This discussion is about NOx and AFAIK there is no scientific claim that nitrogen oxides would cause cancer.
Fine particles created by Diesel are carcinogenic while NOx may cause or worsen respiratory diseases - which is bad, but still not the same as carcinogenic.
And yes, Diesel engines played a role in the strategy to lower CO2 emissions. With the introduction of filter for fine particles and SCR for NOx this seemed like a reasonable plan. Probably it still is.
Actually, in contrast to the perception of the media, it currently doesn't look like Diesel engines will disappear in the next ten years or so. It's just that SCR becomes more and more important and all manufacturers are trying to improve the NOx reduction.
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Well, guys, is it so hard to keep to the facts to some degree? This discussion is about NOx and AFAIK there is no scientific claim that nitrogen oxides would cause cancer.
Fine particles created by Diesel are carcinogenic while NOx may cause or worsen respiratory diseases - which is bad, but still not the same as carcinogenic.
Dannyf has a good point. The catastrophic man made global warming scare caused European bureaucrats to shift the focus from pollutants to CO2 and this is a key contributor to the popularity of Diesel there.
(http://www.voxeu.org/sites/default/files/image/FromMay2014/miravete%20fig3%2029%20sep.png)
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That's also a way of looking at it. Actually the US ignored international climate treaties for decades and only unintentionally lowered the CO2 emission due to the increase of fracking in the last years.
In Europe with its much higher population density we can't afford to pollute larger areas so we have to find more sophisticated solutions to lower CO2.
And let's be fair: Americans didn't avoid Diesel cars in the last twenty years because of emissions but because gasoline was so cheap (and still is compared to Europe) and since even the American housewife feels ashamed with anything below a 3.5l V6 engine (mild exaggeration for rethorical reasons).
So it's a bit cheap to lay back now and criticize the European "Diesel-Mania": trying and suffering a setback is better than not trying at all.
Interesting to watch: https://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/details.cgi?aid=12076
As you can seen, despite all that badmouthing of European emission politics, the air pollution decreased all over Europe (well, western Europe at least) in the last decade. Whereas in the US, the pollution in the cities decreased while it increased in the fracking areas. In some areas in Texas NO2 emission increased by 30%. Well, but of course nobody cares about this if you can get upset about 500k European cars.
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That's also a way of looking at it. Actually the US ignored international climate treaties for decades ...
I hope so, but this belongs in another thread.
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It's just funny that people who spit on emission treaties for decades now try to pretend they'd suddenly care about emissions. It seems hypocritical.
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It's just funny that people who spit on emission treaties for decades now try to pretend they'd suddenly care about emissions. It seems hypocritical.
I didn't say that I care what restrictions some people in Europe impose on their neighbors, I was just explaining to you dannyf's point that the European focus on carbon emission due to man made catastrophic global warming scare caused an increase in other kind of emissions.
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Why is Merkel demanding an EU wide petrol & not diesel tax to pay for her fucking brilliant unilateral idea of importing shitloads of young ignorant misogynist muslim men into Germany? Surely a German only tax on diesel is a better choice considering the dual crimes of the German manufacturers and their elected Politicians fucking up Europe? :palm:
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I didn't say that I care what restrictions some people in Europe impose on their neighbors, I was just explaining to you dannyf's point that the European focus on carbon emission due to man made catastrophic global warming scare caused an increase in other kind of emissions.
There was nothing to explain there as I already answered to dannyf's claims. And as pointed out, the US reduced CO2 emission which much more questionable means.
Still it's strange how people can utter their contempt for any kind of effort to reduce emissions with the damnation of failed efforts in the very same breath.
It sounds like: we Americans are smart not to care about emissions but you all Europeans should burn in hell because everybody will die from cancer since VW cheated.
Why is Merkel demanding an EU wide petrol & not diesel tax to pay for her fucking brilliant unilateral idea of importing shitloads of young ignorant misogynist muslim men into Germany? Surely a German only tax on diesel is a better choice considering the dual crimes of the German manufacturers and their elected Politicians fucking up Europe? :palm:
Now how is that related to VW? Besides, it was not our glorious leader who came up with this idea, but our wheel-chaired finance minister. And of course this was meant as provocation for some countries in Eastern Europe who don't care so much about European treaties, democracy or humanity. But of course, it's so easy to blame Germany for everything that goes bad. Hell, even blame us for being the only country in the god damn world that grants migrants the chance for a better life. How devilish of us.
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But of course, it's so easy to blame Germany for everything that goes bad. Hell, even blame us for being the only country in the god damn world that grants migrants the chance for a better life. How devilish of us.
Yes, very devilish knowing you can unilaterally willkommen the migrants on the rest of Europes behalf, knowing you can shift them all onto the rest using Shengen (and your new Petrol tax to pay for them). I just feel sorry for all your girls. This will be the end of the ridiculous cultural marxist undemocratic EU project and you brought it on yourselves.
Good to see you know they are "migrants" and absolutely NOT refugees. I'm pretty sure the genuine refugee families are happy to wait it out in their first port of call close to family still within Syria.
And the reason this is related to VW is because VW has been pushing diesel along with all the other green nutters with Angelas blessing (and state/politicians investment), despite it being absolutely fucking poisonous compared to petrol CO2 emissions.
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even blame us for being the only country in the god damn world that grants migrants the chance for a better life.
German's good will would certainly be more appreciated if they could reasonably assure that the migrants could have their "better life" ***in Germany***.
It is kind of like me offering a group of rowdy homeless guys a better life in your apartment, and expecting you to appreciate that, :)
As to the emission treaties, I find it hard to comprehend that someone wants to trade CO2 for carcinogenic NOx. Where were those people thinking?
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It sounds like: we Americans are smart not to care about emissions but you all Europeans should burn in hell because everybody will die from cancer since VW cheated.
1. I didn't claim that all Americans are rational when it comes to the man made catastrophic global warming scare.
2. I didn't wish bad to any European.
Please don't make things up.
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even blame us for being the only country in the god damn world that grants migrants the chance for a better life.
German's good will would certainly be more appreciated if they could reasonably assure that the migrants could have their "better life" ***in Germany***.
It is kind of like me offering a group of rowdy homeless guys a better life in your apartment, and expecting you to appreciate that, :)
So we better let them die or force them to live in tents without proper health care or sanitary facilities? Letting aside that all European countries agreed to remove their borders so we can't actually stop them from coming here somewhere over the 3757km border. As Germany doesn't have any borders to a non-European country (actually Swiss is the only neighbor country which is not part of the EU but only surrounded by EU countries), the only chance for migrants from Syria or Afghanistan to come here is because other European countries are either not able, willing or capable to fulfill European treaties. So what should we do with them now that they are here and all other countries refuse to help? Send them back to Syria? Refuse them their constitutional right to at least check their claim for asylum? That we follow European treaties and our own constitution makes us despicable?
As to the emission treaties, I find it hard to comprehend that someone wants to trade CO2 for carcinogenic NOx. Where were those people thinking?
As explained before, nobody in his senses ever claimed that NOx causes cancer - it causes and worsens respiratory problems. Don't mix up fine particles with NOx. At least try to get a bit of background information before you repeat things that are not true.
And again: the United states traded CO2 for NOx (and a lot of other pollutants) with their fracking approach and still seem to be only worried about 500k VWs instead.
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And again: the United states traded CO2 for NOx (and a lot of other pollutants) with their fracking approach and still seem to be only worried about 500k VWs instead.
Most Americans couldn't care less about the VW thing, it's mostly bureaucrats and a few busy bodies that care.
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Most Americans couldn't care less about the VW thing, it's mostly bureaucrats and a few busy bodies that care.
Looks like there's no big difference between them and Europeans.
Most guys here that do care, live in the city, have no car, and write parts of their article for the newspaper on public transport.
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Apropos cars, just stumbled upon EEVblog #79 from 2010 where Dave predicts oil supply peak and high prices that will make international travel non affordable. So far we are doing well.
(http://i.imgur.com/jNlMKR9.png)
"It’s Difficult to Make Predictions, Especially About the Future"
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Won't last. I'm enjoying it while it does but the only reason the oil price has crashed is because OPEC has broken down and everyone is going full retard on supply. Iran also has had sanctions lifted so the price crashed more. Without the OPEC cartel though Saudi would lose political leverage over the USA as the USA would keep fracking. But this won't be sustainable for countries relying on heavy crude, like Venezuela, it's simply not going to be profitable to get it out of the ground any more.
Friend in the oil industry is feeling pretty bleak right now about this situation, a lot of colleagues have lost work, apparently Aberdeen is becoming a modern ghost town.
It'll be much better when we don't have to rely on dodgy middle eastern oil to provide our primary transportation. Electricity FTW, even if it's coal. Maybe then the US wouldn't feel so afraid to deal more directly with the Saudi financiers of ISIS & the taliban.
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Apropos cars, just stumbled upon EEVblog #79 from 2010 where Dave predicts oil supply peak and high prices that will make international travel non affordable. So far we are doing well.
Oil prices are low because of peak oil. The system is more complex than a cursory understanding suggests. If truly interested in the topic, I would start here (http://ourfiniteworld.com/)
Briefly, conventional oil production peaked about 2006. High oil prices resulted and were one factor in the 2007/2008 financial crisis. High oil prices and easy money from the Fed and other CBs encouraged the fracking boom (and other unconventionals - eg tar sands) which has spiked production.
The economy worldwide has continued to stagnate with demand for oil and all commodities has been flat or declining (oil is not the only commodity whose price has been dropping). Flat and stagnating demand combined with increased production (due to flash in the pan fracking ) has meant oil price declines. Limited ability to store excess oil has also been a factor.
The more sophisticated models and understanding of peak oil predict that oil prices will fluctuate but in the end prices will not be able to be sustained at a high enough level to allow continued production of unconventional oils. The fracking company bankruptcies have just started. Most of the companies are frantically continuing production in order to continue debt service and avoid defaults - but with prices low they will fail. Prices will likely eventually rise again though perhaps never again to their prior peak- the worlds economies cannot afford to pay it.
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Apropos cars, just stumbled upon EEVblog #79 from 2010 where Dave predicts oil supply peak and high prices that will make international travel non affordable. So far we are doing well.
Oil prices are low because of peak oil. The system is more complex than a cursory understanding suggests. If truly interested in the topic, I would start here (http://ourfiniteworld.com/)
Briefly, conventional oil production peaked about 2006. High oil prices resulted and were one factor in the 2007/2008 financial crisis. High oil prices and easy money from the Fed and other CBs encouraged the fracking boom (and other unconventionals - eg tar sands) which has spiked production.
The economy worldwide has continued to stagnate with demand for oil and all commodities has been flat or declining (oil is not the only commodity whose price has been dropping). Flat and stagnating demand combined with increased production (due to flash in the pan fracking ) has meant oil price declines. Limited ability to store excess oil has also been a factor.
The more sophisticated models and understanding of peak oil predict that oil prices will fluctuate but in the end prices will not be able to be sustained at a high enough level to allow continued production of unconventional oils. The fracking company bankruptcies have just started. Most of the companies are frantically continuing production in order to continue debt service and avoid defaults - but with prices low they will fail. Prices will likely eventually rise again though perhaps never again to their prior peak- the worlds economies cannot afford to pay it.
So you are saying that markets are adjusting to the change of availability of a resource. That there are economic dislocations for people directly involved in the industries, but otherwise the world goes on. The sky looks different, but isn't falling.
Gee, who could have guessed. I know some of on this forum are old enough to remember the thermal crisis that was going to result from operating the huge computers of the future. No not the problem of getting heat out of those tiny die, but the actual atmospheric heating that came from millions of vacuum tubes (valves for those of you who speak the mother tongue). There was going to be one giant computers in every major city, but it would consume most of the electricity and create serious inflow winds as the heat rose into the air.
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So you are saying that markets are adjusting to the change of availability of a resource. That there are economic dislocations for people directly involved in the industries, but otherwise the world goes on. The sky looks different, but isn't falling.
Yep. Of course the world goes on. Who said otherwise? But past performance is not indicative of future returns. The last 200 years or so of fossil fuel derived energy abundance and all the food and technological abundance that came with it is an anomaly from a broad perspective on the history of homo sapiens.
Humans, to a fault, have a recency bias and tend to extrapolate recent trends indefinitely into the future...
BTW - has anyone else noticed the ironic connection between the VW scandal, finite resources, and the middle east refuge crisis?
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BTW - has anyone else noticed the ironic connection between the VW scandal, finite resources, and the middle east refuge crisis?
Probably just you.
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So you are saying that markets are adjusting to the change of availability of a resource. That there are economic dislocations for people directly involved in the industries, but otherwise the world goes on. The sky looks different, but isn't falling.
Yep. Of course the world goes on. Who said otherwise? But past performance is not indicative of future returns. The last 200 years or so of fossil fuel derived energy abundance and all the food and technological abundance that came with it is an anomaly from a broad perspective on the history of homo sapiens.
Humans, to a fault, have a recency bias and tend to extrapolate recent trends indefinitely into the future...
BTW - has anyone else noticed the ironic connection between the VW scandal, finite resources, and the middle east refuge crisis?
The future could hold a high standard of living for a population very much smaller than todays, or a terrible standard of living for a population quite a bit smaller than todays, or most likely, a high standard of living for a very small population with the rest of the world living very poorly by today's standards. Only time will tell what it will actually be, not necessarily any of the above.
There are many ways to project the future. If you do a trend over all the history of our species it would probably show that the most common state (based on duration) is a relatively good standard of living in terms of calories, health etc. If you project over all humans who have ever lived you would end up with the extrapolation you faulted because of the numbers dominance of recent times. And if you project over time since the beginning of agriculture you get something like what I called the most likely future. All of them are just exercises in number diddling. We don't even have a decent model. Extrapolating a good model beyond its bounds is very risky. Extrapolating a bad model is far worse. The only really sure thing is that the next century probably won't look much like the last one.
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So you are saying that markets are adjusting to the change of availability of a resource. That there are economic dislocations for people directly involved in the industries, but otherwise the world goes on. The sky looks different, but isn't falling.
Yep. Of course the world goes on. Who said otherwise? But past performance is not indicative of future returns. The last 200 years or so of fossil fuel derived energy abundance and all the food and technological abundance that came with it is an anomaly from a broad perspective on the history of homo sapiens.
Humans, to a fault, have a recency bias and tend to extrapolate recent trends indefinitely into the future...
BTW - has anyone else noticed the ironic connection between the VW scandal, finite resources, and the middle east refuge crisis?
The future could hold a high standard of living for a population very much smaller than todays, or a terrible standard of living for a population quite a bit smaller than todays, or most likely, a high standard of living for a very small population with the rest of the world living very poorly by today's standards. Only time will tell what it will actually be, not necessarily and of the above.
There are many ways to project the future. If you do a trend over all the history of our species it would probably show that the most common state (based on duration) is a relatively good standard of living in terms of calories, health etc. If you project over all humans who have ever lived you would end up with the extrapolation you faulted because of the numbers dominance of recent times. And if you project over time since the beginning of agriculture you get something like what I called the most likely future. All of them are just exercises in number diddling. We don't even have a decent model. Extrapolating a good model beyond its bounds is very risky. Extrapolating a bad model is far worse. The only really sure thing is that the next century probably won't look much like the last one.
At least you are willing to entertain that there are multiple possible future scenarios with respect to population and standard of living. Most cannot. I think most in the developed world extrapolate the advances in technology and standard of living that have occurred - especially in the last 100 years - into the future - so that flying cars, a cure for cancer, colonization of the other planets, etc is not a matter of if but when.
As you say - there are multiple possible scenarios. I agree we have no perfect model but we do have some that have proven remarkably accurate over the last 40 years (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/02/limits-to-growth-was-right-new-research-shows-were-nearing-collapse).
Here is what we do know:
1) The excess energy that discovery of fossil fuels (first coal, then oil/nat gas) made available has allowed humans to rapidly advance in our technology and food production (i.e rapidly advance our "standard of living")
2) Fossil fuels are a finite resource. We currently have nothing to fully replace them - not even close.
3) As the cost of extraction of the remaining fossil fuels rises - it acts as a drag on world economies.
4) World economies are built on fiat money and debt - without continual growth, economies collapse. There is no possible steady-state.
5). The interactions between resource availability (cost of extraction), economic activity (debt), population, and standard of living are complex with
multiple feedback loops.
6) There are several signs that we have reached a critical juncture where the limits to growth (https://gailtheactuary.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/limits-to-growth-forecast.png) on a finite planet are starting to exert themselves in a noticeable way
You are absolutely right - the next century will not look like the last one. No the sky is not falling - the world goes on - the earth abides.
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I am afraid that the stupidity and nastiness of human nature, particularly the nature of those in control is either very had to predict or does not bare thinking about. Every person seems to see themselves as the centre of everything and no one wants to give. What the eyes don't see and ears don't hear about don't need worrying about to mosty people and the future is next week. The other problem is that money is used to control and regulate everything and the right things for humanity cost money. If we could ditch money we could remove a whole set of barriers to just getting on with it. What halts research into better ways of doing things ? money, what stops people from adopting better technologies ? money, and if the answer is not money it's human arrogance.
I'm probably one of very few "nutters" that bought a solar system with no expectation of any return on it because I deemed it the right thing to do.
An indication of human stupidity is that the more ignorant people are the more they think they know it all and the more damage they do. Every time there is a mention of reducing temperature someone starts spouting that it's proof global warming does not exist...... but admiting the truth means being willing to change in order to change what truth the future will hold and despite the fact we advanced this far through change we have bred a society that can just exist with nothing to fight for or worry about.
I am afraid the future is not going to be a rosy one at all.
And before I'm dimissed as being a left wing nutter, applying stereotypes to peoples views in order to dismiss them just serves to protect the ego's of people who not only don't want to change their views but need to satisfy their ego into being allowed to not even have to consider other ways or sit down to a healthy and civilized debate and sharing of views and ideas.
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6) There are several signs that we have reached a critical juncture where the limits to growth (https://gailtheactuary.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/limits-to-growth-forecast.png) on a finite planet are starting to exert themselves in a noticeable way
I'm not saying that you are wrong but that is just some squiggly lines which, with no annotation or explanation, don't mean or prove much.
There is some discussion of peak oil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil) and other resource peaks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert_peak_theory) on Wikipedia which provide slightly more detail.
I'm hopeful that we will learn to adapt and use alternative sources of energy - the risks of nuclear generation might weigh very differently with oil running out and solar and wind power are relatively mature (but currently only providing a fraction of use at best). We need to figure out the best way of using these - for instance I'm not totally convinced strapping solar panels to the roofs of houses in the UK with our typically very cloudy skies is the right way to solve the global energy crisis.
Unfortunately I am worried that short termism and the need for "profit" will mean that we do too little until it is too late. |O
I am also irritated by the whole global warming thing in this context. While it has provided some impetus to find alternative sources of energy it has also wasted enormous resources in endless debate which have distracted from the elephant in the room which is that we will run out of fossil fuels eventually and need to have a plan for that eventuality.
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...And before I'm dimissed as being a left wing nutter, applying stereotypes to peoples views in order to dismiss them just serves to protect the ego's of people who not only don't want to change their views but need to satisfy their ego into being allowed to not even have to consider other ways or sit down to a healthy and civilized debate and sharing of views and ideas.
+1 for not dismissing man-made-catastrophic-global-warming skeptics as 'deniers' if this is what you mean.
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What is disturbing about the club of rome studies is not the specific predictions made, even though the predictions made in the 1960s are hauntingly accurate. What is disturbing is the wide range of changes they attempted to forstall the generally unhappy outcomes of the models. The only really successful approach was draconic population control. Only China has even approached the needed controls. Where optimism and/or pessimism comes in at this point in time is how the details play out within the broad brush results, and the nature of the population reduction that will occur sometime in the next century.
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The most offensive act of the global warmers is that they criminalize dessent. They are so confident in their theories, their models, and their predictions that if you dare utter one tiny disagreement, they crucify your career, your life, your reputation and your family, and more.
To any reasonable person, that reminds them of the church's approach to scientific discoveries, the authoritian regimes approach to the non believers....
Juat like the church goers they so look down, the current crop of global warming advocates are believers. Until and unless they welcome debate and subject their views to regorous challenges, they should be treated just like other believers.
Case in point, global warming "scientists" just recently discovered that clouds may have a meaningful impact on climate changes.
Well, water vapor (a non green house gas) actually contributes 90+ percent of all the greenhouse effect on this planet.
You would imagine anyone who has walked outdoors would be able to tell those "scientists" so.
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If we could ditch money
A simple statement, but there are practical obstacles that are insurmountable - at least at this point in human development.
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I don't like the term "beleiver" it's not a word that inspires confidence in an individuals "rational" skills. Beleifs don't allow for critical thinking. And yes either way we are going to run out of the stuff.
Ultimately our problem is population control, there are too many of us for the planet to maintain our desired standard of living. Animals need to strive to reproduce in large numbers to survive, we don't need to any more and it will be our downfall.
In poor countries people have lots of children so that they have a workforce and care in their old age, in rich countries some have lots of children for state benefits or because they have nothing better to do. In both cases it often comes down to money.
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6) There are several signs that we have reached a critical juncture where the limits to growth (https://gailtheactuary.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/limits-to-growth-forecast.png) on a finite planet are starting to exert themselves in a noticeable way
I'm not saying that you are wrong but that is just some squiggly lines which, with no annotation or explanation, don't mean or prove much.
You're right - but it wasn't meant to prove anything. It's a plot that comes from the Limits to Growth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limits_to_Growth) computer model published in 1972 and so far proving very accurate. Lots of annotation and explanation in the book if one is interested.
Unfortunately I am worried that short termism and the need for "profit" will mean that we do too little until it is too late.
Yep. It's already too late IMO.
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What is disturbing about the club of rome studies is not the specific predictions made, even though the predictions made in the 1960s are hauntingly accurate. What is disturbing is the wide range of changes they attempted to forstall the generally unhappy outcomes of the models. The only really successful approach was draconic population control. Only China has even approached the needed controls. Where optimism and/or pessimism comes in at this point in time is how the details play out within the broad brush results, and the nature of the population reduction that will occur sometime in the next century.
Yes. I agree. IMHO we missed our opportunity in the 1970s/1980s to begin a real transition to non-fossil fuel energy and concerted efforts to change to more sustainable agricultural practices. Control of population growth is more problematic but there are less totalitarian ways than China's to decrease the rate of growth. While a population crash may be inevitable (biology says it is), widespread recognition of the problem and embracing of those changes in energy and agriculture beginning then could have meant an easier transition - a more gradual downslope - and a lower, but still good, standard of living for a reduced population in the post fossil fuel age. Instead we as a society, chose to ignore the warnings and embrace a "borrow from the future" approach. We decided we wanted moar of everything - that greed (and debt) is good. We've decided to continue to burn through millions of years of stored solar energy as fast as we can. So unfortunately, I believe that boat has sailed and even now most prefer to live in denial of what is coming. Short termism as grumpydoc and Simon say.
But in the meantime life goes on and for us lucky ones it is very good! :)
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I think we may be starting to hit turning points. I don't think everything will be smooth for me.
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I think we may be starting to hit turning points. I don't think everything will be smooth for me.
We may or may not. Catastrophic predictions are a second human nature. Disasters may happen but not necessarily the ones we predict.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events
I don't think everything will be smooth for me.
Nothing is smooth in nature, including our lives. You are probably have easier life than 99.999% of your ancestors.
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+1 for not dismissing man-made-catastrophic-global-warming skeptics as 'deniers' if this is what you mean.
Just out of interest do you see any level of scepticism about anthropogenic global warming that you think someone could rightfully be labelled a denier for holding? Personally I'd say those who hold the view that human activity has zero impact deserve the moniker, but I can understand those who are doubtful about the possible extent of the possible consequences.
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+1 for not dismissing man-made-catastrophic-global-warming skeptics as 'deniers' if this is what you mean.
Just out of interest do you see any level of scepticism about anthropogenic global warming that you think someone could rightfully be labelled a denier for holding?
Since you asked about this OT, I wouldn't use 'denier' in this context but if you choose to use it you should also use for those on the other side that denies that climate always changed, that warming started before we increased CO2 emission mid 20th century, that the IPCC predictions don't match the data, that dissenting scientists are bullied, and that the science far from being settled (e.g. http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/09/11/list-of-excuses-for-the-pause-in-global-warming-is-now-up-to-52/ (http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/09/11/list-of-excuses-for-the-pause-in-global-warming-is-now-up-to-52/) )
Simon complained about non productive labeling and I wondered if he applies that principle symmetrically to both sides.
Science is too useful to let it getting politicized and corrupted.
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People tend to only listen to and consider the facts that support their argument. There are deniers out there, many of them are found in oil companies who are scared stiff of their profits being hurt. Most people don't want to have to change their way of life so many will just dimiss the idea, I don't know if they should be called deniers.
Denial is a label that can be applied to people who don't want to listen to both arguments. I don't like the term beleiver as it describes people who have "faith" and have not applied critical thinking to the views they have. There are beleivers and deniers on both sides and neither is useful.
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Denial is a label that can be applied to people who don't want to listen to both arguments. I don't like the term beleiver as it describes people who have "faith" and have not applied critical thinking to the views they have. There are beleivers and deniers on both sides and neither is useful.
What would be good terms for deniers and believers than? Skeptics and convinced?
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Since you asked about this OT, I wouldn't use 'denier' in this context but if you choose to use it you should also use for those on the other side that denies that climate always changed,
Agreed. If I ever come across any I definitely will. <-- Not claiming they don' exist btw, there's lots of politicking at the extremes of both sides.
that warming started before we increased CO2 emission mid 20th century,
I'd have to disagree that we only started increasing CO2 output then. There was that all industrial revolution thing.
that the IPCC predictions don't match the data,
Already agreed that the most extreme predictions were BS. But worse case scenarios always are if the worse doesn't happen lol.
that dissenting scientists are bullied,
Would't agree that they're bullied at all, not unless people disagreeing with you is bullying you. I'd say that claim is purely political.
and that the science far from being settled
What science ever is? Though it seems the science is getting better http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2015/noaa-analysis-journal-science-no-slowdown-in-global-warming-in-recent-years.html (http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2015/noaa-analysis-journal-science-no-slowdown-in-global-warming-in-recent-years.html)
Science is too useful to let it getting politicized and corrupted.
Agreed, but would also say both sides do it to some extent. Those who think we can go without fossil fuels entirely right now without increased nuclear capacity are one great example, I'm sure you can think of some examples from your side, for want of a better way of putting it.
There are beleivers and deniers on both sides and neither is useful.
+1
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Denial is a label that can be applied to people who don't want to listen to both arguments. I don't like the term beleiver as it describes people who have "faith" and have not applied critical thinking to the views they have. There are beleivers and deniers on both sides and neither is useful.
What would be good terms for deniers and believers than? Skeptics and convinced?
For some beleivers and deniers is spot on for description, but I'd not want to listen to either, on either side of the fence.
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Shouldn't a Global Moderator (Simon) try and keep this thread on-topic and not let it descend into a rather off-topic series of rants..
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Shouldn't a Global Moderator (Simon) try and keep this thread on-topic and not let it descend into a rather off-topic series of rants..
At 27 pages and with no further news on the subject I am sure the topic has come full circle more than once. The rants seem to relate to the nature of people and their views to the situation, some of those people installed dodgy firmware to break laws. What do you think motivated them and how did they manage to live with themselves knowing the inpact ?
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...Ultimately our problem is population control, there are too many of us for the planet to maintain our desired standard of living...
Of course, every real-environmentist knows that.
But it's very uncorrect to dare to say that these days.
The real goal of all the subsidized-green lobby is to keep exploding population, covered with a green jacket over it.
Your statement goes completely against their plan.
It will also destroy a number of things that are actually seen as correct:
-Cities will be seen as an abnormality. There is no way to want more people+more concrete on the same acre. Start local farming where the theatre and building blocks used to be.
-Choose between birth control OR medical/pension care. Maybe based on how your religious/personal/cultural beliefs are. Choose one.
-No more immigration. The goal is bringing the numbers down, not up.
-Economy "numbers" will fall down, nobody cares, it's logic. Less people = less products.
You will get a lot of resistance. Every lobby group, every political party has too many intrests in keeping the population exploding.
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What would be good terms for deniers and believers than? Skeptics and convinced?
Skeptics and Subsidized.
What happened to "skeptic" being a good thing? Being necessary, the way to go?
In science, of course, in religion is was always banished.
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-No more immigration. The goal is bringing the numbers down, not up.
That has nothing to do with this discussion as we are talking about the whole planet and the impact off all humanity. Unless your a "denier" that wants to deny it's happening and hope that if enough can't enjoy your standard of living by not living in your country you can carry on poluting on their behalf as well.
Fact is we can enjoy our standard of living because most of the world has a much lower one, if every person on earth had that car they wanted I bet you would really be complaining about fuel prices.
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-No more immigration. The goal is bringing the numbers down, not up.
That has nothing to do with this discussion as we are talking about the whole planet and the impact off all humanity. Unless your a "denier" that wants to deny it's happening and hope that if enough can't enjoy your standard of living by not living in your country you can carry on poluting on their behalf as well.
Fact is we can enjoy our standard of living because most of the world has a much lower one, if every person on earth had that car they wanted I bet you would really be complaining about fuel prices.
Calm down dear, you're going to do yourself a mischief!
Have a nice bowl of lentil soup and a cup of herbal tea, and bask in the smugness of your economically and environmentally ludicrous solar system.
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I always felt that the labels "deniers" and "believers" were less than objective. "Skeptics" and "convinced" are better, IMO.
But what amuses me is that there is actually a common ground (that I haven't seen promoted), which makes any head-to-head confrontations much less a matter of principle and more an "us versus them" battle.
Quite simply, I don't see why both sides don't agree on the idea that reduction of fossil fuel consumption is a good idea and just get on with that common objective. Whether you want to fight climate change or reduce pollution, does it matter?
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Quite simply, I don't see why both sides don't agree on the idea that reduction of fossil fuel consumption is a good idea and just get on with that common objective. Whether you want to fight climate change or reduce pollution, does it matter?
Well, on the flip side we can agree that abundance of reliable and inexpensive energy is a good thing.
Your 'neutral' proposal is biased. :)
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This whole battle is biased - and your perception of which way depends on where you stand.
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I always felt that the labels "deniers" and "believers" were less than objective. "Skeptics" and "convinced" are better, IMO.
But what amuses me is that there is actually a common ground (that I haven't seen promoted), which makes any head-to-head confrontations much less a matter of principle and more an "us versus them" battle.
Quite simply, I don't see why both sides don't agree on the idea that reduction of fossil fuel consumption is a good idea and just get on with that common objective. Whether you want to fight climate change or reduce pollution, does it matter?
Them out in the public arena you have the problem of conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists are people who just need to believe and campaign about something and rarely look at the facts. For example a photo of people in the 1980s doing wiring and store in boxes of fuses made by little fuse was all it took for somebody to claim that these were boxes of bond few issues in the world trade centre's. Ignorant people will make a fact out of absolutely nothing either in presenter it as a fact. But then even scientific arguments become biased as human minds will automatically ignore facts that it does not agree with
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Them out in the public arena you have the problem of conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists are people who just need to believe and campaign about something and rarely look at the facts.
Thankfully we have none of those types on EEVBlog. ;)
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Regarding immigration, check your population pyramid before asserting you don't need immigrants to maintain your economy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_pyramid
Slow population growth is as bad as rapid population growth.
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let me guess, it causes problems under the current financial systems.....
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let me guess, it causes problems under the current financial systems.....
Exactly. The world economy, and society as it currently exists, is based on debt. Debt that must be payed back with interest or be defaulted on. That can only happen if the economy continues to grow. This growth can occur in 2 fundamental ways: Increased number of worker bees (i.e. population growth or immigration) or increased productivity. Cheap (to extract) fossil fuels and associated technological advancements have allowed some enormous productivity gains over the past 150 years. But there are limits to what productivity gains can be achieved (one is now occurring with depletion of cheap to extract fossil fuels).
Without continual productivity gains or population growth, the system collapses. But you can't have infinite growth on a finite planet. It's predicament without a solution. Collapse is inevitable - the only questions are the timing of onset, the slope of the downward curve and the ending level..
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Our current banking system relies on the banks creating money from issuing debt, the actual amount of cash in the Uk economy amounts to 3% of the money supposedly in circulation. The state no longer controls money creation, if we all used cash they would be pretty screwed.
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In Belgium, a reporter that was asked by Opel to bring in his Zafira for a software update got suspicious and let a lab test exhaust and power before bringing it in.
Exhaust reduced by a significant amount afterwards, power reduced in low range.
They looked for another Zafira that didn't go for service recently, measured it, went to the garage with a fake defect report, got it back with the same reduced exhaust and power.
Opel denies doing anything , and denies rolling out new software to bring Zafiras closer to specs.
On today's news, an anonymous dealer says that Opel automatically adds a line for software upgrade to the worklist for each Zafira that enters the garage for maintenance.
To be continued...
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... Collapse is inevitable - the only questions are the timing of onset, the slope of the downward curve and the ending level..
Wow! Somebody cornered himself in a dead end of fear and despair.
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... Collapse is inevitable - the only questions are the timing of onset, the slope of the downward curve and the ending level..
Wow! Somebody cornered himself in a dead end of fear and despair.
Who would that be? Certainly not me. The world goes on, the cycle continues, as it always has. Life is good!
I don't fear the eventual collapse the current arrangement - not in the least. Do you? If so, I'm sorry for you.
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"To be continued"
The whole fiasco is a demonstration of governments brutal violation of free mkt principles. The beaucrats could have said that you can produce whatever cars you want, no matter how polluting they are.
The car owners or drivera are charged based on emission. It would have saved lots of trouble for lots of people.
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The population pyramid has more consequences, for example, the younger working generation has to take care of the older retiring or retired generations. The money put aside has no real value if the production devaluates the economy, therefore you need a good strong base.
An alternative would be a society like in Logan's run.
So if you don't want immigrants, have more babies higher than 2 per couple. say 7 babies for every 3 couples (2.333)
The US was at 2.06 fertility rate back in 2010, now it's a bit bellow 2, meaning slow growth. Europe I think its well bellow 2 and close to 1. France used to be pretty bad that they would give you a lot of tax breaks after your 3rd kid, not sure if that's still the case.
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I always felt that the labels "deniers" and "believers" were less than objective. "Skeptics" and "convinced" are better, IMO.
There's a couple of people who believe mid west United states is the world and who believe there was no significant global warming last century, that's who I reserve the label deniers for.
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The population pyramid has more consequences, for example, the younger working generation has to take care of the older retiring or retired generations. The money put aside has no real value if the production devaluates the economy, therefore you need a good strong base.
Or we could dedicate more resources to elderly care, funded through fiscal redistribution, and just accept we have less total production and services in other fields. We can do with a bit less consumption. Of course that only works in a culturally homogeneous society with a strong sense of community, so you don't get too much brain drain from the increased levels of redistribution.
Japan is good, the EU has a problem.
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In Belgium, a reporter that was asked by Opel to bring in his Zafira for a software update got suspicious and let a lab test exhaust and power before bringing it in.
Exhaust reduced by a significant amount afterwards, power reduced in low range.
They looked for another Zafira that didn't go for service recently, measured it, went to the garage with a fake defect report, got it back with the same reduced exhaust and power.
Opel denies doing anything , and denies rolling out new software to bring Zafiras closer to specs.
On today's news, an anonymous dealer says that Opel automatically adds a line for software upgrade to the worklist for each Zafira that enters the garage for maintenance.
To be continued...
It's something car manufacturers have done for years even for potential mechanical defects, mainly on expensive cars. Bu this is a turn for the more immoral, sell a car under false pretenses and then modify it later.
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We need an amnesty law in the EU, let companies come forward, get it all out in the open with limited liability and after that we can move on.
The current corrupt half measures and silent regulators (throwing the book at the industry using current laws would have too much economic impact) just creates more evil.
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We need an amnesty law in the EU, let companies come forward, get it all out in the open with limited liability and after that we can move on.
The current corrupt half measures and silent regulators (throwing the book at the industry using current laws would have too much economic impact) just creates more evil.
There is that word again. That is why we are in this mess. Car manufacturers exist to make profit, in any way possible, usually by bending the law to it's limits and breaking it if it thought it could get away with it. So we are all going to fess up, then what ? They still can't make cars the way they want that abide by the law, that xmeans they can no longer exist, so same result as throwing the book at them. We either want to make an attempt to stop destroying our planet at a faster rate than it can recover or we dont. If we want to live for the moent and stuff tomorrow then fine, but don't say tomorrow that that were not warned many yesterdays ago. |O
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-No more immigration. The goal is bringing the numbers down, not up.
That has nothing to do with this discussion as we are talking about the whole planet and the impact off all humanity. Unless your a "denier" that wants to deny it's happening and hope that if enough can't enjoy your standard of living by not living in your country you can carry on poluting on their behalf as well.
It's not up to you to decide what has "nothing to do with" and what "we are talking about"
And don't make simplistic popularist assumption to try to call me a "denier" for whatever doesn't fit your personal agenda.
Regarding immigration, check your population pyramid before asserting you don't need immigrants to maintain your economy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_pyramid
Slow population growth is as bad as rapid population growth.
that's the actual establishment plan, and where it all goes wrong.
It is presented in function of maintaining the economy.
2 errors here:
- population decrease is what is good for the planet, environment and frictions. Don't make money and profit more important.
-"the economy" is an establishment construct, with totally fake numbers like GDP to "prove" something.
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We either want to make an attempt to stop destroying our planet at a faster rate than it can recover or we dont. If we want to live for the moent and stuff tomorrow then fine, but don't say tomorrow that that were not warned many yesterdays ago. |O
Don't worry Simon, everything will be just fine with the planet.
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Regarding immigration, check your population pyramid before asserting you don't need immigrants to maintain your economy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_pyramid
Slow population growth is as bad as rapid population growth.
that's the actual establishment plan, and where it all goes wrong.
It is presented in function of maintaining the economy.
2 errors here:
- population decrease is what is good for the planet, environment and frictions. Don't make money and profit more important.
-"the economy" is an establishment construct, with totally fake numbers like GDP to "prove" something.
I guess I forgot to mention IMHO
Your opinion might be different, but mine applies to even bacteria growth so I'm sticking with my opinion :)
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They still can't make cars the way they want that abide by the law, that xmeans they can no longer exist, so same result as throwing the book at them.
You can give them some time to work through inventory with temporary higher emission limits.
We either want to make an attempt to stop destroying our planet at a faster rate than it can recover or we dont.
Only realistic way to do it is massive global population reduction, tragedy of the commons and brain drain makes it pretty much impossible for Europe to act alone in curbing the current course. Emission limits are more about health in cities than saving coniferous forests any way, so it's not really relevant.
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We either want to make an attempt to stop destroying our planet at a faster rate than it can recover or we dont. If we want to live for the moent and stuff tomorrow then fine, but don't say tomorrow that that were not warned many yesterdays ago. |O
We aren't destroying the planet. The planet is doing just fine. We are merely destroying the ability of the planet to support us, and a lot of other life forms. If we die out it will just demonstrate that we were an evolutionary cul-de-sac, and there will soon be very little evidence we were ever here.
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Your opinion might be different, but mine applies to even bacteria growth so I'm sticking with my opinion :)
Nearly everybody here respects different opinions, no problem here.
But honestly, why is your opinion about "necessary population growth" based on bacteria growth?
Like in: your "wanted effect" in both situations?
We aren't destroying the planet. The planet is doing just fine. We are merely destroying the ability of the planet to support us, and a lot of other life forms. If we die out it will just demonstrate that we were an evolutionary cul-de-sac, and there will soon be very little evidence we were ever here.
That's one of the reasons I prefer planned population decrease.
I also think it will burn in the end, but the planet will be fine, no effect for the aliens that are looking from Mars.
I prefer a planned decrease over a sudden (nearly) total collapse.
I like this simple conversation, partly as satire, partly as alternative eye-opener.
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist/ (http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist/)
(Not for populists and regressives, of course, useless to pick a sentence and simplify or bend it to something else.)
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Won't be a collapse, everything is self regulatory, nothing else in life plans that's the beauty of nature.
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Won't be a collapse, everything is self regulatory, nothing else in life plans that's the beauty of nature.
Have you looked at how nature self regulates? Its endless cycles of boom and bust. A good summer, and millions of birds survive infancy. A following hard winter, and they litter the ground dead. Nature regulates, but in an extremely brutal way. Humans don't generally think of such brutality as very beautiful. Our entire modern way of life is a result of us trying to separate ourselves from nature's self regulation.
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I mean the pure meaning of the beauty of nature, and yeah, it's brutal that doesn't take away the beauty of the balance, so far it's a perfect system, not for the creatures though.
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I mean the pure meaning of the beauty of nature, and yeah, it's brutal that doesn't take away the beauty of the balance, so far it's a perfect system, not for the creatures though.
So do you agree that, if somehow those creatures could become intelligent and self-limit their own population, the Natural-Brutal effect could be prevented, or strongely reduced?
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Not really, nature has always its way into population affairs. If it was on our cards, there will be little we could do even with all our advancements and achievements.
But I get what you mean, we could try to be more in harmony, but so far it's proven it's an impossibility and that doesn't preclude some virus wiping us out, just because.
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..., we could try to be more in harmony, but so far it's proven it's an impossibility and ...
I believe you that it's impossible, and the proof can exist, because there's too much short-term profit in population explosion.
Do you have a link to an understandable version of that proof, I'm curious witch data and logic they used.
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My only "proof" is a saying:
You can lead a horse to water...
Edit: but of course we don't know what the horse really needs so maybe drinking it might not help the beast.
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...but so far it's proven it's an impossibility ...
My only "proof" is a saying: You can lead a horse to water...
This is disappointing, I hoped you had a real proof, or logical breakdown, even in another area.
Really curious to see how they should have put that together.
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-No more immigration. The goal is bringing the numbers down, not up.
That has nothing to do with this discussion as we are talking about the whole planet and the impact off all humanity. Unless your a "denier" that wants to deny it's happening and hope that if enough can't enjoy your standard of living by not living in your country you can carry on poluting on their behalf as well.
It's not up to you to decide what has "nothing to do with" and what "we are talking about"
And don't make simplistic popularist assumption to try to call me a "denier" for whatever doesn't fit your personal agenda.
Regarding immigration, check your population pyramid before asserting you don't need immigrants to maintain your economy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_pyramid
Slow population growth is as bad as rapid population growth.
that's the actual establishment plan, and where it all goes wrong.
It is presented in function of maintaining the economy.
2 errors here:
- population decrease is what is good for the planet, environment and frictions. Don't make money and profit more important.
-"the economy" is an establishment construct, with totally fake numbers like GDP to "prove" something.
Actually I do decide if it is relevant to the topic, as a moderator and in the spirit of the forum, hence i deleted one of your posts as it was plain racist, you have an axe to grind, this forum is not the place for it. immigrants coming to europe are not at fault for causing an increase in global warming.
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Oh the planet will survive if you mean the rock with a molten centre that we live on, but the ecosystem we rely on will not remain as it is changing to a degree that prevents humans from surviving.
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immigrants coming to europe are not at fault for causing an increase in global warming.
Surely that's not true.
If X number of people move from a country with a low standard of living to one of a higher standard, then overall energy consumption and emissions are going to rise ( in order to provide the accoutrements that give that standard of living)
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immigrants coming to europe are not at fault for causing an increase in global warming.
Surely that's not true.
If X number of people move from a country with a low standard of living to one of a higher standard, then overall energy consumption and emissions are going to rise ( in order to provide the accoutrements that give that standard of living)
Thats one way of looking at it (how dare these people be allowed to consume as much as us). But if we were living within our ecological means then it should not be a problem. As always we look at the problem and solution in the wrong things to enable us to carry on being selfish.
Hands up everyone who turns off radiators in rooms they do not use..... anyone ?.... thought so.....
I live in a 3 bedroom house (the wife and kids have not arrived yet - working on it), but i do not spend gas on heating rooms I do not use, i do not put the thermostat to extravagant temperatures, I have invested in some solar power to try and help offset my impact and i even use rain water to flush my toilet. If we all took a proactive approach things would be better, but we sit around blaming the government for trying their best to force us to do what they think is the right thing and if that fails we blame imigrants.
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...we sit around blaming the government for trying their best to force us to do what they think is the right thing ...
This is a gem.
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...we sit around blaming the government for trying their best to force us to do what they think is the right thing ...
This is a gem.
Just for the record I rarely agree with the government :-DD
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Well Simon, thank you for replying to what you wanted me to have said, rather than what I actually did say. And also a big thanks for insinuating that I think "how dare they consume as much as us".
Oh, and in answer to your arrogant ramblings, yes, I do of course turn off the radiators in unused rooms in the house - just like most people do. My thermostat is set to 19 degrees C, I'm a bloke, not a poof, who needs their house at 25C anyway? Given that this is the UK, and solar is a stupid idea here, I've insulated most of the house with 135mm Kingspan - the greenest kWh is a kWh saved! Now I know that "I've insulated my house" won't impress your friends as much as "I've installed solar PV" over a glass of poncy wine, but it has a much bigger impact, both on my pocket and on the environment. Although I suspect that many people of your ilk do such things more for bragging rights than any practical benefits.
PS. If your real life persona is in any way similar to your online persona, I think you might be waiting quite a while to fill your house... ::)
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Well Simon, thank you for replying to what you wanted me to have said, rather than what I actually did say. And also a big thanks for insinuating that I think "how dare they consume as much as us".
Oh, and in answer to your arrogant ramblings, yes, I do of course turn off the radiators in unused rooms in the house - just like most people do. My thermostat is set to 19 degrees C, I'm a bloke, not a poof, who needs their house at 25C anyway? Given that this is the UK, and solar is a stupid idea here, I've insulated most of the house with 135mm Kingspan - the greenest kWh is a kWh saved! Now I know that "I've insulated my house" won't impress your friends as much as "I've installed solar PV" over a glass of poncy wine, but it has a much bigger impact, both on my pocket and on the environment. Although I suspect that many people of your ilk do such things more for bragging rights than any practical benefits.
PS. If your real life persona is in any way similar to your online persona, I think you might be waiting quite a while to fill your house... ::)
Well I didn't entirely intend to mean that you thought that but that is the upshot, the "problem" is they will use as much as us not, which implies that we admit we are using too much. Some will turn a blind eye to the fact that everyones consumption should be lower. If you want to listen to ponces brag listen to those who go on about their 3 foreign holidays a year, think what would happen if everyone on the planet did that.
Wine ? yuck. I beleive my house is insulated as well, but I'm starting to doubt the certificate that came with it, I have spent more money on new windows than on solar. I know solar is not as good here as in the middle of africa but it's the one thing I could do myself and cheaply. I can turn out on a good day 700Wh, that is enough to offset a reasonable amount of my usage, thanks to the government treating us all like idiots I can't get anything for it and most of it is made when I'm not here.
I just say what I think and always welcome debate. but yea you right, some people don't like opinions, they require thinking for ones self in order to have one and in order to offer a counter opinion, it's easier if we all just ignore what happens around us.
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Well Simon, thank you for replying to what you wanted me to have said, rather than what I actually did say. And also a big thanks for insinuating that I think "how dare they consume as much as us".
Oh, and in answer to your arrogant ramblings, yes, I do of course turn off the radiators in unused rooms in the house - just like most people do. My thermostat is set to 19 degrees C, I'm a bloke, not a poof, who needs their house at 25C anyway? Given that this is the UK, and solar is a stupid idea here, I've insulated most of the house with 135mm Kingspan - the greenest kWh is a kWh saved! Now I know that "I've insulated my house" won't impress your friends as much as "I've installed solar PV" over a glass of poncy wine, but it has a much bigger impact, both on my pocket and on the environment. Although I suspect that many people of your ilk do such things more for bragging rights than any practical benefits.
PS. If your real life persona is in any way similar to your online persona, I think you might be waiting quite a while to fill your house... ::)
Well I didn't entirely intend to mean that you thought that but that is the upshot, the "problem" is they will use as much as us not, which implies that we admit we are using too much. Some will turn a blind eye to the fact that everyones consumption should be lower. If you want to listen to ponces brag listen to those who go on about their 3 foreign holidays a year, think what would happen if everyone on the planet did that.
Wine ? yuck. I beleive my house is insulated as well, but I'm starting to doubt the certificate that came with it, I have spent more money on new windows than on solar. I know solar is not as good here as in the middle of africa but it's the one thing I could do myself and cheaply. I can turn out on a good day 700Wh, that is enough to offset a reasonable amount of my usage, thanks to the government treating us all like idiots I can't get anything for it and most of it is made when I'm not here.
I just say what I think and always welcome debate. but yea you right, some people don't like opinions, they require thinking for ones self in order to have one and in order to offer a counter opinion, it's easier if we all just ignore what happens around us.
Everyones consumption should be lower? While I agree that consumption at first world rates for the current population of the world is unsustainable, just using less is not a solution. Even consumption at middle tier rates does not seem sustainable. Humans are like all other creatures, they breed rather well. At some point you just can't consume enough less to support an ever growing population. And well before that point you have to ask why bother. I am sure that the planet could support a much higher human population than currently exists as long as everyone had one jumpsuit that they changed annually, ate nothing but rice and beans, never travelled except to the fields used to grow such rice and beans and so on, but the quality of life matters as much as the quantity.
Yes, marginal improvements can be made by conservative living. But the fundamental problem is quantity of people. I don't know what the optimum number is. There is some minimum number required to support a vibrant society, with strong artistic, technical and other capabilities. Based on history that number is probably significantly less than a billion. Is there any ethical and practical way to consciously reach a better number? I sure don't know of one, and I haven't seen one proposed, so it will likely happen on its own. Probably tragically. And probably not that many decades away.
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Well less people is the ultimate solution, you are right, we can't go on increasing the population and accounting for it by using less. But I see a lot of ignorance and waste. Here in the UK we have been debating the fact that supermarkets are throwing away veg that does not look good enough, this is the sort of thing that has to stop. We don't need to drive big 3 tonne cars around but people don't like being told these things and apparently it's a free society.
I would welcome population control, but no matter how small the population gets if it wastes it can still burn every thing up faster than nature replaces it.
I would certainly end state benefits after the first or second child, here in the UK it's a good earner for some, in poor countries it's a way of guaranteeing success of the family and old age care and leads to exponential population growth. The church should be abollished and every one made to understand that they are responsible for themselves and not some non existent god and then we can also stop them running around preaching about not using birth control.
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Well less people is the ultimate solution, you are right, we can't go on increasing the population and accounting for it by using less. But I see a lot of ignorance and waste. Here in the UK we have been debating the fact that supermarkets are throwing away veg that does not look good enough, this is the sort of thing that has to stop. We don't need to drive big 3 tonne cars around but people don't like being told these things and apparently it's a free society.
I would welcome population control, but no matter how small the population gets if it wastes it can still burn every thing up faster than nature replaces it.
I would certainly end state benefits after the first or second child, here in the UK it's a good earner for some, in poor countries it's a way of guaranteeing success of the family and old age care and leads to exponential population growth. The church should be abollished and every one made to understand that they are responsible for themselves and not some non existent god and then we can also stop them running around preaching about not using birth control.
Staggeringly, I agree with wholeheartedly with the second half of your post! Your loony-lefty mask is slipping mate!
It is ludicrous to suggest that this little island of the UK can successfully and sustainably welcome an infinite amount of people to these shores. However for too long, even insinuating such has been shouted down by the pseudo-liberals.
Good luck with getting any government to even acknowledge that an ever expanding population is unsustainable...
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Staggeringly, I agree with wholeheartedly with the second half of your post! Your loony-lefty mask is slipping mate!
It is ludicrous to suggest that this little island of the UK can successfully and sustainably welcome an infinite amount of people to these shores. However for too long, even insinuating such has been shouted down by the pseudo-liberals.
Good luck with getting any government to even acknowledge that an ever expanding population is unsustainable...
And therin lies the difference between a beleiver/denier and a critical thinker/someone willing to have an opinion and debate it. I am grown up enough to not have to find a political party or other grouping that sounds like it thinks what I think and then subscribe to it's every whim. While as it is well known by now i suppose I subscribe to the green party I don't just agree with everything they say and I'm happy to tell them what I think. No we can't sustain endless immigration and that is in contrast with living within our means and not transporting stuff all over the place. But ultimately immigration or not it's a global population thing. I don't dislike immigrants, they have far better work ethics than the average britt often although I expect they are catching on, but at the end of the day why empty parts or europe that have more arable land than us. If they come here because of our standard of living then maybe we need to ask their governments why they are doing such a shit job of looking after their people.
The last time I was at a conference I spent a lot of time on the beach with my travelling companion talking to people having become very dissalusioned with the conference itself. We bumbed into a lady who runs the proportional representation campaign organisation (not on behalf of any party). Now i have never realy understood what it is all about but i put to her my idea: We abolish political parties, that way everyone becomes an individual again and no longer has to follow party lines and doctrines which stagnates change. Every MP is an independant and has to think for his or her self. We then have elections once very week/month in a small number of constituencies such that every 5 years all MP's in the UK have been re/elected, this means that there will never be consistent "voting blocks" and you don't get a government runs to the usual plan that spends the first year blaming the last lot, 3 years screwing us and the last year making it up to us again! She loved the idea, she thought it was brilliant but then it hit her: It means everything I have worked on so far is scrap, so she decided she could find a way of merging my idea and proportional representation. Well i guess she back to campaigning for the same old thing because heaven forbid she suddenly change her mind for a better idea....... :rant:
Once you have fixed the election system you need to look at the financial system, good ideas are hampered by people being concerned of loosing profit from doing things the wrong way or it costing money to implement.
If money was no object what would it mean, if money was not the measure of things what would we be researching right now? what technology would we be implementing ?
People don't like chage.
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I am a huge supporter of proportional representation, but it will never ever happen. The main parties do too well out of the FPTP system, and the media on both sides of the political spectrum would shout it down as parties they dislike would get a proper fair say. That's called democracy, but lefties and righties only like democracy on their terms. To put it into perspective, UKIP (economically right-wing, and libertarian at heart) got three million votes, and the Green Party (old school Lefty) got one million (I think, I've not bothered to check), but they got TWO SEATS between them! That is not democracy! But the pretend liberals couldn't bear to have a "nasty" party get traction, and the right-wing folk couldn't abide the "loony-lefties" get their fair say.
You can't have democracy if you refuse to accept that parties with whom you object may get votes...
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Hands up everyone who turns off radiators in rooms they do not use..... anyone ?.... thought so.....
These days many houses are controlled by a tiny computer, the house i sit in right now each room controls itself entirely automatic, heat as well as sun shading and ventilation. So yes one hand up here!
US army have for years studied emigration due to increase in various things such as wars etc on a global scale as on of the biggest problem of the future to civilian unrest. I think they do because of a reason.
I dont know how many refugees UK have taken but Sweden have taken so many there are not even housing left so they get to sleep on the floors in sports stadiums all over the country, any floor available really, even outside tents are used, no idea how they are going to survive -25degC for extended periods , now the borders are closed because the whole hoopla went entirely out of control! Refugees even sleep inside the governmental emigration building in Stockholm, the whole thing are hideous since it's a security risk! Obviously people who decides they dont want to take part in a war have the right to flee and seek security, human right end of story.
Other then that no its not VW engineers fault, and yes i do cut down trees to heat up the house because it's
cheap and we have billions of trees just outside my door!
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I dont know how many refugees UK have taken but Sweden have taken so many there are not even housing left so they get to sleep on the floors in sports stadiums all over the country, any floor available really, even outside tents are used, no idea how they are going to survive -25degC for extended periods , now the borders are closed because the whole hoopla went entirely out of control! Refugees even sleep inside the governmental emigration building in Stockholm, the whole thing are hideous since it's a security risk! Obviously people who decides they dont want to take part in a war have the right to flee and seek security, human right end of story.
In the UK we supposedly have a housing crisis yet nobody can explain to me why a brand-new housing estate just round the corner that was built eight years ago when I first returned to the UK still sits mostly empty. The amount of houses lived in is so low that the town Council has not adopted the streets and technically this housing estate is still classed as a building site and it was built eight years ago. We do not have a housing crisis, we have a pay crisis and a crisis of people's employment terms. My mortgage provider gives me Amazon vouchers as part of deals yet Amazon is well known for employing people on zero hour contracts so Amazon's own employees cannot get a mortgage with my mortgage provider who gives me Amazon vouchers.
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I am a huge supporter of proportional representation, but it will never ever happen. The main parties do too well out of the FPTP system, and the media on both sides of the political spectrum would shout it down as parties they dislike would get a proper fair say. That's called democracy, but lefties and righties only like democracy on their terms. To put it into perspective, UKIP (economically right-wing, and libertarian at heart) got three million votes, and the Green Party (old school Lefty) got one million (I think, I've not bothered to check), but they got TWO SEATS between them! That is not democracy! But the pretend liberals couldn't bear to have a "nasty" party get traction, and the right-wing folk couldn't abide the "loony-lefties" get their fair say.
You can't have democracy if you refuse to accept that parties with whom you object may get votes...
I think UKIP got 4 million and the Green party got 1 million which would translate into 100 MPs and 25 MPs. Because I am a believer in democracy and not just my point of view I would be quite happy with this. At the end of the day if we do not get these 100 UKIP MPs people will never see what the party they continually vote for is actually like and will never be able to truly make up their minds about them. And of course people would see the Green party for what it is good or bad and maybe the Green party would grow up a little bit when it had some real problems to deal with instead of pies in the sky.
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ut Sweden have taken so many there are not even housing left so they get to sleep on the floors in sports stadiums all over the country, any floor available really, even outside tents are used, no idea how they are going to survive -25degC for extended periods , now the borders are closed because the whole hoopla went entirely out of control! Refugees even sleep inside the governmental emigration building in Stockholm,
That doesn't sound like a very human and fair treatment of the refugees. Those refugees were lured to go to Sweden when those Swedes welcomed the refugees and showed them their enthusiastic love. Now, having risked their lives and their fortune, the refugees are here and they seem to have been abandoned by those Swedes.
I say we should find out those Swedes individually, empty their bank accounts and send those refugees to the houses / apartments of those Swedes who wanted then to take care of those refugees.
Those Swedes have to be made to keep their promises, don't you think so?
:)
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Be careful what you wish for when it comes to zero hour contacts - they are essential to many lines of business (tourism and other weather-dependant industries spring to mind).
I'd rather have a zero hour contract than no contract at all...
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This thread is getting out of hand.
I have not even remotely read all of it, so don't know about the direction, but the refugee crisis in Europe is not the right one.
Getting back on topic, I had a bunch of uni students in the lab the other day asking industry questions for their course, one of them I ended up talking about VW:
http://www.eevblog.org/video/VW.mp3 (http://www.eevblog.org/video/VW.mp3)
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The news seems to have gone quiet on the subject. Presumably we are not going to be getting the daily updates on the number of cars that have been called in for retest and found to be failing. I think this will be a bit like the banking scandals, a lot of people are going to get off lightly.
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oh of course it was an open secret, when the individual has no power over a huge organization secrets are not neccessary, open secrets are fine. A few will be in the know and not care, authorities will overlook the transgressions and joe public is non the wiser until it affects him. Then it's all tear and the authorities that already knew say a few appropriate things and it's all forgotten about. The usual arguments will be made, "people will loose their job's" "it will kill the company" any amount of excuses will be made. It's been done time and time again and there are companies throught the world that operate like this. When joe public finds out the authorities act all surprised and start saying things that don't mean a lot until we forget.
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... hence i deleted one of your posts as it was plain racist,..
There was nothing racist in my post, your Political Correctness is disgusting.
You are not a good forum user, because nearly every time you refuse to try to understand what was said, but only use some words and bend something else around it.
You are not a good Moderator also. Good ones let ideas live, and stay on the side. You post your own extremist ideas, and use your Moderator status to push it.
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... hence i deleted one of your posts as it was plain racist,..
There was nothing racist in my post, your Political Correctness is disgusting.
You are not a good forum user, because nearly every time you refuse to try to understand what was said, but only use some words and bend something else around it.
You are not a good Moderator also. Good ones let ideas live, and stay on the side. You post your own extremist ideas, and use your Moderator status to push it.
So now you are defying Dave's wish to bring the discussion back on topic ? If I was as you say I would have removed all of your posts but like I said you have an axe to grind and I removed the one posts you made that was innapropriate and even explored your views. This is your final warning, drop it, or you get dropped!
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So now you are defying Dave's wish to bring the discussion back on topic ?
Oh sorry, I didn't see that. I just saw your false arbitrary conviction, clicked reply on this without seeing what other people posted afterwards.
He's absolutely right about wanting the discussion back on topic, especially if you look at how in the 15 posts before, the top poster tried to dominate and bend it.
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So now you are defying Dave's wish to bring the discussion back on topic ?
Oh sorry, I didn't see that. I just saw your false arbitrary conviction, clicked reply on this without seeing what other people posted afterwards.
He's absolutely right about wanting the discussion back on topic, especially if you look at how in the 15 posts before, the top poster tried to dominate and bend it.
Are you done now ?
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Apropos VW and the catastrophic man made global warming scare, they do have a great plugin hybrid car
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/918/918-spyder/ (http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/918/918-spyder/)
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did anyone mention GM yet?
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/videozone_ENG/1.2549687 (http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/videozone_ENG/1.2549687)
super double secret ninja firmware update during ordinary service visit. It started as US punishing EU company, but might backfire in GMs face now.
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did anyone mention GM yet?
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/videozone_ENG/1.2549687 (http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/videozone_ENG/1.2549687)
super double secret ninja firmware update during ordinary service visit. It started as US punishing EU company, but might backfire in GMs face now.
Anyway for car owners to check the firmware version, ODBII etc?
In my previous car I had an after market flash image with improved gas mapping and higher turbo boost mode. When I visited dealers I explicitly told them not to reflash.
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A very good ploy. First they get the cars through the tests by reading software and then they re-update it later during a regular service or if they panic they have the cars recalled the other excuses.
In the past prestigious car manufacturers would do this to cover up mechanical defects and design flaws and whole engines could be changed with the customer not being the wiser it seems we have taken this one step further and blatantly breaking the law.
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"Silent recalls" are common practice since the ECU software became field upgradable. Obviously there are always bugs found in the software that's already in the field and at some point a manufacturer can decide that every car that comes to the garage gets a firmware update just get a software with several known issues fixed to reduced the risk of failure in the field. It's not completely unlikely that the new software will show different behavior regarding consumption and emissions without any evil plan behind it.
Then again, as I noted earlier, it was and is surprising how silent VW's competitors remained regarding the NOx cheating issue. You would have assumed that at least some of the major competitors in the Diesel market used this opportunity to put the boot in it. The fact that his didn't happen could be either interpreted as a surprising case of fair play or as a silent confession that they also used some tricks to pass the NOx regulations.
With all the independent reports and tests showing that more or less every "clean" Diesel engine exceeds the stated NOx emission by far in realistic driving scenarios, I'd think the latter is more probable.
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Then again, as I noted earlier, it was and is surprising how silent VW's competitors remained regarding the NOx cheating issue. You would have assumed that at least some of the major competitors in the Diesel market used this opportunity to put the boot in it. The fact that his didn't happen could be either interpreted as a surprising case of fair play or as a silent confession that they also used some tricks to pass the NOx regulations.
Of course they are all at it, just like the l/100Km rating that is bollocks on most cars. As we keep saying it was an oopen secret and of course if they are all at it no one has to worry as no one will spill the beans as they are as guilty.
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did anyone mention GM yet?
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/videozone_ENG/1.2549687 (http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/videozone_ENG/1.2549687)
super double secret ninja firmware update during ordinary service visit. It started as US punishing EU company, but might backfire in GMs face now.
hey yes, I did, a few pages ago ;).
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/vw-firmware-engineers-morally-bankrupt/msg847582/#msg847582 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/vw-firmware-engineers-morally-bankrupt/msg847582/#msg847582)
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Personally, I still like Nissan Leaf: didn't we have a member here who used to travel in "comfort and luxury" in his leased Leaf? and occasionally won street races against other econo-boxes too.
Can you electric cars do that? :)
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Personally, I still like Nissan Leaf: didn't we have a member here who used to travel in "comfort and luxury" in his leased Leaf? and occasionally won street races against other econo-boxes too.
Can you electric cars do that? :)
That was MJ's pride and joy. He charged it with green electrons that were delivered to his house over the public grid.
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That was MJ's pride and joy. He charged it with green electrons that were delivered to his house over the public grid.
In all fairness a lot of people put their money where their mouths are and pay the extra for green tariffs, and given some of the operators mix of hydro and wind capacity I can imagine they aren't all a total con. Oh and the national grid is private not public.
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Shurely he meant public as in used by everybody, not as in owned by the state.
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Shurely he meant public as in used by everybody, not as in owned by the state.
Thanks. He knows that, it was just a distraction from the main point that giving money to a green cause doesn't change significantly the composition of electricity that charge one's Leaf.
That Leaf owner used to brag about the green electrons he uses vs the brown ones that other use.
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Shurely he meant public as in used by everybody, not as in owned by the state.
Thanks. He knows that, it was just a distraction from the main point that giving money to a green cause doesn't change significantly the composition of electricity that charge one's Leaf.
That Leaf owner used to brag about the green electrons he uses vs the brown ones that other use.
Read the thread title and then please stop derailing this thread.
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Personally, I still like Nissan Leaf: didn't we have a member here who used to travel in "comfort and luxury" in his leased Leaf? and occasionally won street races against other econo-boxes too.
Can you electric cars do that? :)
Tesla Model S P90D (with ludicrous mode) will tear the ass off almost any other car on the market, except some very-high-end performance supercars.
Leaf vs other econoboxes would be an easy race, at least until 30-40 mph the Leaf would probably win against most reasonably high end cars because of the low-end torque. At higher speeds a multi-ratio gearbox is obviously very useful so even an econobox will pull away at 70-80mph.
And FWIW the Leaf is pretty comfortable. I don't own one but I've ridden in one. One really nice benefit is that the heating works immediately, no waiting for an engine to warm up on cold mornings. Unfortunately the winter range isn't great, but if you have a short commute that's not a big deal.
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I've driven the P85D and it's VERY quick, however it feels different to a fossil fueled car - there's just no drama. The most impressive feature BY FAR is not the acceleration, it's the AUTO-PILOT (i've used it on British roads in rush-hour and at other times, AMAZING).
My daily driver is a ZOE, that is marginally quicker off the line than the LEAF - you get very used to that torque, these are seriously quick point-point cars. And blowing off boy-racers at the lights is hilarious.
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And blowing off boy-racers at the lights is hilarious.
Couldn't you just race them? :-DD
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When my kids started learning how to drive, I gave them a few ideas for them to consider...
First I told them that I knew they were going to hoon around - just pick the time and place. No parent can control this sort of thing, so the best thought I had was to make it clear that they had choices - including to not do anything stupid.
Then I told them if they wanted to take on an (ahem) 'traffic light challenge', then just go for either 'first off at the lights', 'first across the intersection' or 'first to the speed limit'. Anything after that is measuring the cars, not the drivers. Any monkey in a Mini can do 100km/h.
At all times, I aimed to make it clear that they were in control of their choices, thus making it their responsibility.
If you want a full-on race, take it to the track.
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Even as an old fart I sometimes enjoy the traffic light grand-prix. Particularly on roads that switch from 30 to NSL immediately after the lights. Of course I ease off the loud pedal when I reach the posted limit. If the Charlie in my wing mirror finally catches up and proceeds to overtake right past the well known speed camera that's his business :-DD
But I understand there are "anti-hooning" laws in Oz, which would even make a fast start from the lights illegal if a copper doesn't think your car is worthy enough for a quick getaway?
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The anti hoon laws are a matter of concern if you want to 'push' things - but the police aren't stupid.
A quick take-off from the lights might get their attention and they could pull you over for a roadside check and possibly get out of it with a bit of 'friendly advice' - but if you do some tyre screeching or burn any rubber in doing so, you can pretty much guarantee getting bad news.
I've sometimes watched one of the Aussie cop shows where they pull up hooning drivers. The cops are just driving along and see a car getting 'set up' for a drift or somesuch and when it does, they are right on the scene and know exactly what went down. The drivers' excuses are often very entertaining and they don't realise they're just digging another hole...
"The road was wet" == So you weren't driving to the conditions
"I need new tyres" == So your vehicle is unroadworthy
"I turned too tightly" == So you were not driving with care
"My brakes didn't work" == So your vehicle is unroadworthy
.... and so it goes on.
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I would not want to be put in a position the guys who wrote the firmware were put in. Your options are:
- Implement it and keep paying your bills.
- Quit the job in protest, and someone else gets to do it.
- Blow the whistle and go into arbitration where everyone is against you. If somehow you manage to avoid arbitration and you get a day in court, you're still jobless and fighting a legal battle which takes years.
I'd probably implement it too. But cover my ass with a paper trail, so that I can show that it wasn't my decision. I was just following orders like a good little corporate drone.
Whistleblowers don't have it easy. The guy who protested about the O-ring design that caused the Challenger disaster, was shunned by colleagues and managers and had to resign from the company that designed the rocket components. Which if you're in that field is a hard job to land. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Boisjoly
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....But cover my ass with a paper trail, so that I can show that it wasn't my decision. I was just following orders like a good little corporate drone.
All too often an unfortunate necessity in the corporate world.
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My understanding is that the CEO was demanding as in meeting timelines and getting the project out of the door.
The engineering group out of fear of non performing what management wanted implemented the cheat just to meet the deadline instead of stating that it couldn't be done in that timeframe and hid that they were cheating because they just wanted to pressure to go away.
So the fault is from both sides. I don't think, but then again I might be wrong, that management told them to cheat or else.
It's a lot like Lisa vs Macintosh under Jobs, he had them competing with each other and ridiculing the losers as a mean to ramp up innovation and development.
Is it fair? probably not but it worked for them. It's pretty obvious in my observations in development that when pressured a lot of things get done in a short time, what the balance is is the key for good/bad management.
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Being a whistleblower is a tough road. One of the reasons for their troubles is the number of people who are quite willing to specify a problem, whether they understand what is going on or not. Anyone who has ever worked in a large corporate environment knows some of these types. They have a "pet rock" problem which they cry about continually. During my career some of the terrible risks that were identified by these types included: transistors, microprocessors, digital signal processing, adhesives, threaded joints, through hole components and a long list of others. Like a broken analog clock they turn up to be right periodically. And continue to say I told you so for years when the hands of their analog clock happened to be pointed at the problem du jour.
One who "blew the whistle" on a project I was associated with (a false alarm as it turned out), spent some time discussing his side project with me. He was studying Coriolis force, which he described as "a mysterious and poorly understood force". When he unravelled it's secrets he was sure he would have the solution to the worlds energy problems.
How these people slither through the cracks of HR and proficiency reviews I'll never know, but they are much too common.
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I think I uttered this thought before, but working in a large company myself, I would suspect the typical fail scenario based on setting targets and connecting a part of the salary to reaching targets without considering the human factor.
I could imagine the following scenario:
- The highest management set the target to "get the foot in the door" in the American Diesel market
- The middle management decided that the engine EA189 was a candidate and set the target to improve the NOx emissions of that engine within a given time and without additional costs
- The lower management set the target for the SW team to deliver
Some levels below in the hierarchy people noticed that the engine would never fulfill the stricter American regulations. Not without a complete re-engineering of the injectors, SCR/storage catalyst etc.
Now what typically happens in this target/salary structure is that with each level something is reported upwards, it sounds better. So every stupid idea of the high management automatically becomes a success.
In this specific case, maybe it was like this:
- The engineer reported it was technically not feasible and all he could do was cheat to pass the emission test
- The lower management reported it was a challenge, but they found a solution that allows VW them to enter the market, but there were some legal risks to clarify
- The middle management reported a full success and added that this proves the technical leadership of the company
- The highest management felt confirmed that their target was realistic and thought they should push a bit harder next time
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In this specific case, maybe it was like this:
- The engineer reported it was technically not feasible and all he could do was cheat to pass the emission test
- The lower management reported it was a challenge, but they found a solution that allows VW them to enter the market, but there were some legal risks to clarify
- The middle management reported a full success and added that this proves the technical leadership of the company
- The highest management felt confirmed that their target was realistic and thought they should push a bit harder next time
- The engineer reported it was technically not feasible and the engine needs some extensive changes
- The team-leader asks about the costs and is disappointed about the answer. he searches for a loophole to get his good appraisal at the end of the year
- The engineer-group get an "group-target" to fulfill until the end of the year. If not they get a lower end-of-year-bonus.
- At this point the engineer who reported it is not possible now gets the same target to fulfill as "target agreement" in an indirect way
- The team leader now gets the question from the group how to fulfill this target and the answer is off-the-records and points to a solution "in an creative way". Because, you know, the regulation is not that black an white and what we could do is ... cheating. (no paper trail)
- The whole engineer team is now not happy, but they got a big carrot in front of their nose (the bonus money) and the fault is not the problem of an individual engineer, it is the whole team. So everyone can point the finger to another one.
- The team leader reports the middle management "the problem is solved". They can expect the solution to the end of the year.
- The team leader puts an detailed description of the software-cheat in an management summary, during lunch he told his boss he don't need to read this report, because ... you know ... boring tec-stuff from his engineers ... nobody can understand in detail ....
- The team leader now moved the responsibility to this cheat to his boss. He gets his money, the engineers get their money, everything is fine.
- The boss in the middle management got the hint and takes the same approach to move the responsibility to his boss or he is the dumb guy.
- ...
- The middle management reported a full success and added that this proves the technical leadership of the company
- The highest management felt confirmed that their target was realistic and thought they should push a bit harder next time
I worked in three big companies and it was always exactly like this. If an engineer don't want to take the responsibility, then the whole group gets the carrot.
The guy who code the firmware, including the cheat, gets now the social pressure of his peers he is working together since years. And the guilt is shared between all engineers in the group. This is from a moral standpoint better to handle for the individual engineer.
Common lower management practice to push something that an individual engineer is not willing to accept.
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all he could do was cheat to pass the emission test
I am sure somewhere there the line for illegality is breached, and for most corporations the line of ethical conduct is breached as well.
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I am sure somewhere there the line for illegality is breached, and for most corporations the line of ethical conduct is breached as well.
Sure. The problem with linking targets to salary is though that people tend to use euphemisms when reporting bad things.
Let's imagine the engineer didn't use the word cheating but said something like "please note this will only improve the emissions for the test cycle, it won't improve the real-world situation".
And then this was reported up and became better and better.
With this hierarchical target system, nobody needs to lie, it's just that everybody makes it sound a little better so everybody reaches his target and gets the bonus.
Problem is that in the long run, the opposite of the original idea is reached because this system punishes failure while reporting failure is at least as important as reporting success and never must be punished.
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OK, then either Bosch/VW screwed the security mechanism up or some very clever/motvated people figured it out.
Anyway, I still find it questionable that he made his investigation with a chip tuned ECU. After all chip tuning is all about messing up with calibration to increase horse power without caring much about emissions.
Besides, some of his assumptions are based on questionable A2L files which might be only valid for other software versions or calibration variants.
E.g. I don't think that SCR model/state selection has anything to do with the acoustic function (which, as far as I know is about manifold resonance).
Sorry, I didn't see this thread until just now.
"Acoustic function" is indeed an euphemism, and while there was a function related to real acoustic management (of some air flap), "the" acoustic function is not related to this functionality. The "acoustic function" is the function that detects whether you're in a driving cycle or not, period. Coincidentally there was some media report that confirms the naming (https://global.handelsblatt.com/breaking/exclusive-vws-diesel-manipulation-software-originated-at-luxury-car-subsidiary-audi-sources-say (https://global.handelsblatt.com/breaking/exclusive-vws-diesel-manipulation-software-originated-at-luxury-car-subsidiary-audi-sources-say)). Based on what I've seen, this report seems valid, though it's important to stress that Audi's original implementation (back in the EDC16 in 2003) never had the connection between the "acoustic function" and exhaust treatment; it modified only injection characteristics.
The chip tuning on my car is non-intrusive, i.e. it doesn't change the ECU itself, but messes with the sensor data. I did not tune my car myself (I bought it that way unknowingly; long story), but I also didn't bother to remove it. The tuning would not affect the software operation, including the driving cycle detection. It may affect the absolute values for emissions, of course, but my analysis wasn't based on measuring them anyway (and also I didn't have access to the necessary equipment to do so). I'm mostly a software/reverse engineer guy, not a car guy.
Regarding dumping the data, this particular chip (TC1767) has a (relatively) simple hardware vulnerability that affects the read protection. If you boot code via the CAN bootloader, you usually can't dump the flash if read protection is enabled. With the hack (that I found in a day or so; I hadn't worked with TriCore before, so yes, it's a really simple hack), I could overcome this.
I answered some more questions (like about the mismatching A2L files) on http://debugmo.de/2015/12/dieselgate/ (http://debugmo.de/2015/12/dieselgate/) . If you have further questions, I'm happy to respond. As a few updates to that post, I since then have used the TC1767 exploit on a few more devices (including a TC1797), and I looked at more firmware versions, for example the US firmware, and also the late-2014 recall, which added the steering wheel detection to improve test cycle detection.
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Funny someone woken this thread up, since today there was a new player in town:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/business/mitsubishi-fuel-economy-tests.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/21/business/mitsubishi-fuel-economy-tests.html)
Of course this is just falsifying performance data and probably affecting only Nissan cars not their own.
Then again they already were on the diesel list.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-range-of-cars-emit-more-pollution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/30/wide-range-of-cars-emit-more-pollution-in-real-driving-conditions-tests-show)
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This is getting interesting in Ireland. VW have been taken to court in District (small local) Court and their lawyers have walked out. The posh VW lawyers seem to think the court is beneath them. The judge is well know for taking no nonsense. The woman taking the case has some good expert witnesses lined up. At this rate VW will end up with the Sheriff (non american meaning) calling to their offices... :popcorn:
Yesterday: Volkswagen lawyers walk out of Mayo court http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0906/814597-volkswagen-castlebar-court/ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0906/814597-volkswagen-castlebar-court/)
Today: Judge says Volkswagen case will proceed despite walkout by lawyers http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0907/814849-volkswagen-castlebar-court/ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0907/814849-volkswagen-castlebar-court/)
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The first thing I thought of when I heard about this matter was the feasibility of the emissions standards. In the USA states can set their own standards which are more stringent than federal standards. The state of California loves to do this and many times dreams up standards that are unobtainable. Recently they had to back off their 'zero emission' vehicle standards as electric vehicle technology is just not able to compete with IC cars (not to mention there is no such thing as zero emissions and at the same time they want more electric cars they are closing down electrical generation plants.)
So how practical is it to achieve the diesel emission standards? So you have to add a tank to hold urea to inject that into the engine to reduce emissions but how many vehicle owners will actually fill it? What are the trade offs with the energy and emissions required to make/distribute the urea and the extra cost/complexity/emissions to build cars that use it?
A few years ago I calculated the number of miles one would have to drive a hybrid version of a car as compared to the same IC powered car to recoup the difference in cost with fuel savings. It was somewhere around 125,000 miles. My calculations did not include any additional maintenance costs associated with servicing a hybrid such as replacing the battery pack. I later found out that most manufactures rate the battery pack with about 150,000 mile lifetime. Given that the average person does not keep a car for 150,000 miles (as they don't maintain it properly) they are spending more money over the lifetime of the vehicle by buying a hybrid.
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So, if I buy a Honda Insight for €8k with 4l/100km (58mpg) I'll be spending more on on maintanence than with any other average €6k, 7l/100km (33 mpg) car?
Feul is 1.58 €/L (6.72 $/gallon).
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Not maintenance costs. The hybrid car cost more than the same size plain gas car, so you have the higher purchase price, offset by the fuel savings. Fairly easy to calculate how many miles you have to drive where the savings in fuel costs exceeds the upfront cost difference. Also keep in mind gas is 1/3 that price in the US. The higher the fuel costs, the quicker the payback.
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just heard yesterday that the ECU devs and management at Bosch are involved as well. That cheat code was most probably developed there.
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I just calculated it. Including expected maintenance (checkups/tires) and the 4l/100km car is 1.2k cheaper per year. Which means I have to drive it for 3 years to be competitive. While nothing major breaks down. And hope the battery will still work when reselling. I'd rather get a Mazda 2 or something then.
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This is getting interesting in Ireland. VW have been taken to court in District (small local) Court and their lawyers have walked out. The posh VW lawyers seem to think the court is beneath them. The judge is well know for taking no nonsense. The woman taking the case has some good expert witnesses lined up. At this rate VW will end up with the Sheriff (non american meaning) calling to their offices... :popcorn:
Yesterday: Volkswagen lawyers walk out of Mayo court http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0906/814597-volkswagen-castlebar-court/ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0906/814597-volkswagen-castlebar-court/)
Today: Judge says Volkswagen case will proceed despite walkout by lawyers http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0907/814849-volkswagen-castlebar-court/ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0907/814849-volkswagen-castlebar-court/)
At Spain, The judges rule to favor of Volskwagen
First sentence to favor of Volskwagen
http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2016/05/23/actualidad/1464029095_692115.html (http://economia.elpais.com/economia/2016/05/23/actualidad/1464029095_692115.html)
Second sentence to favor Volskwagen
http://www.elmundo.es/motor/2016/06/15/57614abee2704e9f1c8b4595.html (http://www.elmundo.es/motor/2016/06/15/57614abee2704e9f1c8b4595.html)
Now , the case Volskvagen more surrealist that still is investigate :
"A judge argues that he has a Volskwagen for freeing to investigate the "dieselgate"
The Audiencia Provincial of Lerida force him to follow the case
http://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2016-08-21/un-juez-trata-de-librarse-de-investigar-el-dieselgate-porque-tiene-un-volkswagen_1248992/ (http://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2016-08-21/un-juez-trata-de-librarse-de-investigar-el-dieselgate-porque-tiene-un-volkswagen_1248992/)
just heard yesterday that the ECU devs and management at Bosch are involved as well. That cheat code was most probably developed there.
We know that the german media tend to hide any news that he hurts it.
"The Dieselgate origin: A software above the paper harmless created by Audi and Bosch at 1999 "
http://www.diariomotor.com/2016/04/23/origen-dieselgate-software-audi/ (http://www.diariomotor.com/2016/04/23/origen-dieselgate-software-audi/)
http://www.motorpasion.com.mx/volkswagen/volkswagen-bosch-dieselgate (http://www.motorpasion.com.mx/volkswagen/volkswagen-bosch-dieselgate)
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At Spain, The judges rule to favor of Volskwagen
irst sentence to favor of Volskwagen
...
Second sentence to favor Volskwagen
...
It's Volkswagen, the people's car so to say.
We know that the german media tend to hide any news that he hurts it.
The lack of grammar makes it hard to understand this, but I figure we should rather consult the free press of Russia or North Korea to get unbiased news, shouldn't we ::) ?
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"A few years ago I calculated the number of miles one would have to drive a hybrid version of a car as compared to the same IC powered car to recoup the difference in cost with fuel savings. "
Putting aside the perceived environmental benefits and fad, you are essentially prepaying for your fuel savings upfront, in the form of a hybrid vehicle or a diesel vehicle.
That trade off usually favors gasoline vehicles. The exceptions are heavy duty trucks or large SUVs. The other exception was flex-fuel trucks that the great state of Colorado incentivized people to buy at the height of financial crisis. A personal friend of mine got two surburbans under that program.
Dumbest of the dumb programs, even by government standards.
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The anti hoon laws are a matter of concern if you want to 'push' things - but the police aren't stupid.
A quick take-off from the lights might get their attention and they could pull you over for a roadside check and possibly get out of it with a bit of 'friendly advice' - but if you do some tyre screeching or burn any rubber in doing so, you can pretty much guarantee getting bad news.
I've sometimes watched one of the Aussie cop shows where they pull up hooning drivers. The cops are just driving along and see a car getting 'set up' for a drift or somesuch and when it does, they are right on the scene and know exactly what went down. The drivers' excuses are often very entertaining and they don't realise they're just digging another hole...
"The road was wet" == So you weren't driving to the conditions
"I need new tyres" == So your vehicle is unroadworthy
"I turned too tightly" == So you were not driving with care
"My brakes didn't work" == So your vehicle is unroadworthy
.... and so it goes on.
Pretty much.
It's also important to remember that you don't need to necessarily exceed the posted speed limit in order to get yourself into trouble. "Street racing" here (or at least in NSW, but I would expect other states have similar, if not identical laws) can get your car confiscated, you having to pay any towing fees, heavy fines and loss of driving licence. To add to that, Police don't have to catch you in the act either. If as a result of investigations, they find that a vehicle has been used in a street race at any time in the preceding 10 days, the same action can apply.
Legislation prohibits (without approval):
(a) any race between vehicles on a road, or
(b) any attempt to break any vehicle speed record on a road, or
(c) any trial of the speed of a vehicle on a road, or
(d) any competitive trial designed to test the skill of any vehicle driver or the reliability or mechanical condition of any vehicle on a road
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A few years ago I calculated the number of miles one would have to drive a hybrid version of a car as compared to the same IC powered car to recoup the difference in cost with fuel savings. It was somewhere around 125,000 miles. My calculations did not include any additional maintenance costs associated with servicing a hybrid such as replacing the battery pack. I later found out that most manufactures rate the battery pack with about 150,000 mile lifetime. Given that the average person does not keep a car for 150,000 miles (as they don't maintain it properly) they are spending more money over the lifetime of the vehicle by buying a hybrid.
My Chevy Volt cost me about the same (or maybe less) than a similarly equiped ICE only car. I save about $50 a month on gas and the maintenance costs are LESS than an typical ICE only car. After 2 years I've had NO maintenance cost. I've only put about 2000 miles on the ICE and so I'm only now due for the first oil change. With regenerative braking, I expect no need for brake pads for many years. The maintenance costs are much lower overall than a typical ICE car. Sure the battery pack will likely need to be replaced in 10+ yrs but the price for that will very likely be far less than I would have paid for typical oil, brake and transmission servicing of a typical ICE car in that time period. -And the fuel savings in that time period will have paid for a couple of battery replacements.
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Cost you about the same after what taxpayer funded rebate? Sure ignore a $2K battery pack and your taxpayer funded rebate and your purchase price and maintenance costs look great. :)
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Putting aside the perceived environmental benefits and fad, you are essentially prepaying for your fuel savings upfront, in the form of a hybrid vehicle or a diesel vehicle.
That trade off usually favors gasoline vehicles.
I tend to agree. Gasoline vehicles have become very simple and cheap compared to diesel and hybrid vehicles. With a gasoline engine the chance of getting a complex malfunction is less and the parts are cheaper. I used to drive diesels but financially it just doesn't make sense nowadays.
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Cost you about the same after what taxpayer funded rebate? Sure ignore a $2K battery pack and your taxpayer funded rebate and your purchase price and maintenance costs look great. :)
NO - absolutely not. It cost me the same BEFORE the tax credit. In fact I paid the same for it ($32K) as I had for my Subaru Forester 10 years prior.
BTW - There is no taxpayer rebate - there is a tax credit .
Of course I'm saving the taxpayers a portion of the large taxpayer subsidies for gasoline - but that's been *documented* and discussed ad nauseum here before and of course ignored by the politicos. No need for :horse:
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I tend to agree. Gasoline vehicles have become very simple and cheap compared to diesel and hybrid vehicles. With a gasoline engine the chance of getting a complex malfunction is less and the parts are cheaper. I used to drive diesels but financially it just doesn't make sense nowadays.
Most hybrids simplify a very failure prone, complex part - the transmission. Instead of switching between gears, they use a much simpler clutchless CVT.
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Regardless of miles, you probably want to be changing that oil once a year. Even cars with extended oil service intervals recommend once a year if you don't hit the mileage requirement and in at least once case where the basic maintenance is included for the duration of the warranty, they will do the oil change annually if you don't hit the mileage limit as part of the free service.
I avoid the complexities of both automatic transmissions and CVTs - I drive only manual transmission vehicles, and will continue to do so until such time as my left leg stops working.
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Regardless of miles, you probably want to be changing that oil once a year. Even cars with extended oil service intervals recommend once a year if you don't hit the mileage requirement and in at least once case where the basic maintenance is included for the duration of the warranty, they will do the oil change annually if you don't hit the mileage limit as part of the free service.
That makes sense for old school ICE's and was always my thinking as well. Sythetics have changed that and more importantly, the Volt is different. It is an exceptionally well engineered car and I trust the Volt engineers when they explicitly state no oil change is necessary until the 2 year mark unless mileage dictates it. In fact the very first recommended service is at 2 years! The computer puts out an "oil life remaining" display which counts down based on time and a number of measured engine parameters - rpm's, temp, etc. Because I've only burned about 50 gallons of gas in 2 years (I only need to burn gas when I drive to Seattle once a month or so), my oil is still in perfect shape and it's only prudence and time that dictates I get it changed now.
BTW this has all been discussed extensively on the Volt forum.
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At Spain, The judges rule to favor of Volskwagen
irst sentence to favor of Volskwagen
...
Second sentence to favor Volskwagen
...
It's Volkswagen, the people's car so to say.
We know that the german media tend to hide any news that he hurts it.
The lack of grammar makes it hard to understand this, but I figure we should rather consult the free press of Russia or North Korea to get unbiased news, shouldn't we ::) ?
The German "saving boxes"(Cajas de ahorros) hide 250 billion in toxic assets
http://www.larazon.es/historico/1390-las-cajas-germanas-esconden-250-000-millones-en-activos-toxicos-SLLA_RAZON_497910?sky= Sky-September-2016 # (http://www.larazon.es/historico/1390-las-cajas-germanas-esconden-250-000-millones-en-activos-toxicos-SLLA_RAZON_497910?sky= Sky-September-2016 #)
You follow with the Masonic-Judeo-Marxist-Communist conspiration but won't be last time that the german politicians hide their dirty issues.
The Newspaper director is ultrafan Putin(IRONIC) and he has as pet a rat ,which he names his rat, lovingly VLADIMIR
https://youtu.be/IHB4mTloU0w (https://youtu.be/IHB4mTloU0w)
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You follow with the Masonic-Judeo-Marxist-Communist conspiration but won't be last time that the german politicians hide their dirty issues.
How do you come to this conclusion?
It is just a few days since that information about Bosch from 2008 was published in full extent. Of course we all "knew" right from the start of that whole thing, that this never has been about some crazy engineers doing dirty things at their own will (as the bosses were trying to picture in the beginning). It was clear from the start that something of this size must have involved top level management and CEOs of more than one company, as well as politicians in several areas. And I am also sure that this is not limited to Germany and German companies. I claim that all car makers are driven by money and greed, and when they have to decide whether to use that bulky and expensive exhaust cleaner, or to use a cheaper one that can only run intermittedly, then many if not all will take the former and instruct the engineers to find a "solution" to that. Sounds familiar to many of you EE's? One starts cutting cost, others follow.
p.s. You forgot capitalism and democracy in your list, at least for me because I am watching those critically as well.
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...and their lawyers have walked out. The posh VW lawyers seem to think the court is beneath them.
The judge is well know for taking no nonsense...
...At this rate VW will end up with the Sheriff calling to their offices... :popcorn:
Stuff for believers...
I see the "justice" department as a criminal organisation, or at least a big scam.
There is no "vw thinking this" or "justice doing that"
At the end of the day, establishment Lawyers/Judges/Managers of both sides all go to their expensive restaurant.
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You follow with the Masonic-Judeo-Marxist-Communist conspiration but won't be last time that the german politicians hide their dirty issues.
How do you come to this conclusion?
It is just a few days since that information about Bosch from 2008 was published in full extent. Of course we all "knew" right from the start of that whole thing, that this never has been about some crazy engineers doing dirty things at their own will (as the bosses were trying to picture in the beginning). It was clear from the start that something of this size must have involved top level management and CEOs of more than one company, as well as politicians in several areas. And I am also sure that this is not limited to Germany and German companies. I claim that all car makers are driven by money and greed, and when they have to decide whether to use that bulky and expensive exhaust cleaner, or to use a cheaper one that can only run intermittedly, then many if not all will take the former and instruct the engineers to find a "solution" to that. Sounds familiar to many of you EE's? One starts cutting cost, others follow.
p.s. You forgot capitalism and democracy in your list, at least for me because I am watching those critically as well.
The Bosch problem is that they tried to hide their involvement with the "dieselgate" because they made and programmer the 90% of the ECUs at german vehicles.
Besides, all the software have CHEATS with the goal of easing to developer testing and debugging the software.
When beginning the scandal they shut up as bitch, a measure that the scandal grew and they were being aimed ,they began to say something.
When they already had run over the ice-cream wagon they told almost all.
If they had told all since the beginnig: They had supplied to volkswagen the software and it had cheat codes for helping to test and debug the application. They made the same with all carmakers.
Then the Bosch had stayed as the ethical and honest corporation, but as the german politicians had to save Volkswagen at any price ,to spanish style sharing shit everywhere.
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The Bosch problem is that they tried to hide their involvement with the "dieselgate" because they made and programmer the 90% of the ECUs at german vehicles.
This alone goes to show how little you know. Of course your weird conspiracy drivel already more than qualified you for the nutcase department.
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From what I've read in the media, VW asked Bosch to implement the "special functions" in the ECU and Bosch told VW that selling cars with those special features enabled might be illegal in the USA. Bosch anticipated what VW was going to do and asked for a liability exemption, but VW denied that. So VW are still the cheaters.
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I don't follow the story that closely but Bosch's involvement had being reported pretty much day 1.
The story is that Bosch told vw the code is for test purposes and shouldn't be put into production.
If true, hard to imagine how Bosch could be held liable.
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I don't follow the story that closely but Bosch's involvement had being reported pretty much day 1.
The story is that Bosch told vw the code is for test purposes and shouldn't be put into production.
If true, hard to imagine how Bosch could be held liable.
If your boss instructs you to implement something dangerous, and you warn him about this but do not refuse doing it because you would otherwise lose your job, and later someone gets hurt, what would happen when this goes to court? I'm not sure here in Germany that you would be acquitted in this case. (talking about danger may be a bit stretchy here, but the accusation is endangering people's health from excessive eshaust pollution - which is stupid if you ask me)
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I fear the line between necessary/allowed dyno detection and illegal dyno cheating is very small and can be easily crossed with a bit of calibration and user code.
Only the responsible people at Bosch know how much they were involved in this. It's perfectly possible that they implemented a dyno detection for technical reasons (i.e. a modern car would react on stuff like only two wheels turning so it has to be specifically told not to) and this was later used for cheating. Maybe at some time, Bosch became aware of this and tried to protect themselves by contract and VW wouldn't let them.
Again, I hope that the actual facts will be revealed at some point as they could help to understand what went wrong at which level and to define policies to avoid stuff like this.
Then again, the media reports are full of crap like "cheat devices" or "cheat code" that don't help to understand the real problems.
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The story is that Bosch told vw the code is for test purposes and shouldn't be put into production.
If true, hard to imagine how Bosch could be held liable.
Those who are in the wrong will certainly try playing with words. Things like...
Bosch: Hey, you know that's only for testing, right?
VW [quietly]: Yeah yeah, only for emissions testing, all good
[shit blows up]
VW: Hey, you didn't say it was only for internal testing, we did just what you said!
Besides that I've just been watching a doc about it again and I'm still astonished how everybody doesn't understand a thing and is still expecting VW to "fix" the issue. For some reason they think recalls will make their vehicles clean... nope, all they can do is remove the "cheating" software so that their car doesn't report lower emissions than it should anymore (which has zero actual impact now the vehicles are in circulation), but never ever will it be any cleaner by any significant amount. The engines are designed how they are, they'll be dirty as long as they exist and it's not some kind of BS plastic part like what was shown that will solve it.
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Besides that I've just been watching a doc about it again and I'm still astonished how everybody doesn't understand a thing and is still expecting VW to "fix" the issue. For some reason they think recalls will make their vehicles clean... nope, all they can do is remove the "cheating" software so that their car doesn't report lower emissions than it should anymore (which has zero actual impact now the vehicles are in circulation), but never ever will it be any cleaner by any significant amount. The engines are designed how they are, they'll be dirty as long as they exist and it's not some kind of BS plastic part like what was shown that will solve it.
Of course removing the dyno detection has nothing do to with improving the emissions. But for sure there are fixes to reduce the NOx emissions - it's just that these all come for a price. Either you need more urea (for SCR variants, in least in Europe there are also non-SCR cars affected), increase consumption or reduce performance. Obviously VW is optimistic to compensate for this partly with some improved functions and calibration here and there. And then there's the "flow rectifier" thing. Admittedly I have mixed feelings about it, but I was told my people with more knowledge in this field that the manifold air flow sensor VW used is so bad that it could actually really benefit from that plastic part.
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Besides that I've just been watching a doc about it again and I'm still astonished how everybody doesn't understand a thing and is still expecting VW to "fix" the issue. For some reason they think recalls will make their vehicles clean... nope, all they can do is remove the "cheating" software so that their car doesn't report lower emissions than it should anymore (which has zero actual impact now the vehicles are in circulation), but never ever will it be any cleaner by any significant amount. The engines are designed how they are, they'll be dirty as long as they exist and it's not some kind of BS plastic part like what was shown that will solve it.
I think the powers-that-be are wanting VW to reprogram the ECUs so that they run in the low emissions mode (as they do when they detect a dyno test) all the time. This is certainly possible, but as Mr Hexadecimal said above, it will increase fuel consumption, reduce performance, (and increase additive consumption - if applicable). Imagine the phone call:
"Hello Sir, this is your local VW dealership. Can you bring your car in so we can modify it to be worse to drive and also use more fuel?"
Click...........Burrrrrrrrrrrr.
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Besides that I've just been watching a doc about it again and I'm still astonished how everybody doesn't understand a thing and is still expecting VW to "fix" the issue. For some reason they think recalls will make their vehicles clean... nope, all they can do is remove the "cheating" software so that their car doesn't report lower emissions than it should anymore (which has zero actual impact now the vehicles are in circulation), but never ever will it be any cleaner by any significant amount. The engines are designed how they are, they'll be dirty as long as they exist and it's not some kind of BS plastic part like what was shown that will solve it.
I think the powers-that-be are wanting VW to reprogram the ECUs so that they run in the low emissions mode (as they do when they detect a dyno test) all the time. This is certainly possible, but as Mr Hexadecimal said above, it will increase fuel consumption, reduce performance, (and increase additive consumption - if applicable). Imagine the phone call:
"Hello Sir, this is your local VW dealership. Can you bring your car in so we can modify it to be worse to drive and also use more fuel?"
Click...........Burrrrrrrrrrrr.
The worse is that you have paid by "ecological car" and when you go to reprogram , you will have a lower range but with the price of the eco-car .
Such as are the things , Volkswagen haven't intention to return the difference(as minimum) , this is a SCAM.
At US crunch to Volkswagen with fee and compensation by tricked vehicle (5k-10k$) , at change EU the volkswagen won't pay neither buck.
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Looks like there's a plea bargain happened:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/09/12/vw_engineer_state_witness_in_dieselgate/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/09/12/vw_engineer_state_witness_in_dieselgate/)
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If your boss instructs you to implement something dangerous, and you warn him about this but do not refuse doing it because you would otherwise lose your job, and later someone gets hurt, what would happen when this goes to court? I'm not sure here in Germany that you would be acquitted in this case. (talking about danger may be a bit stretchy here, but the accusation is endangering people's health from excessive eshaust pollution - which is stupid if you ask me)
Data collection is key important here.
If your boss instructs you to do this, collect proof of it, and also proof that he's instructing others to do so, "standard undermining" is the term to be used in court.
Collect data where you make him aware of it, and data you follow(ed) the rules where possible.
This makes you walk out without any problem when something happens. Seen it before my eyes.
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The Diesel pollution problem has existed for years; and there is absolutely no way that at least one of the VW board isn't interested to find out how they managed to get the results they did. In law, not knowing is no excuse (for ordinary folks anyway).
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If your boss instructs you to do this, collect proof of it, and also proof that he's instructing others to do so, "standard undermining" is the term to be used in court.
Companies in which doing dubious things is common usually have powerful methods to make that difficult or impossible.
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Regardless of miles, you probably want to be changing that oil once a year. Even cars with extended oil service intervals recommend once a year if you don't hit the mileage requirement and in at least once case where the basic maintenance is included for the duration of the warranty, they will do the oil change annually if you don't hit the mileage limit as part of the free service.
I avoid the complexities of both automatic transmissions and CVTs - I drive only manual transmission vehicles, and will continue to do so until such time as my left leg stops working.
I'm with you on that. Problem is it is increasingly difficult to find a manual transmission car
As for the other evil trick, DRM Auto parts. Yes indeed, a sensor plate in my transmission required buying a brand new one, and not one from a wrecker, because Mercedes use DRM and embed the VIN on the part (or it embeds the 1st time it's installed. -- write once). Turns out there are a few people that rebuild the sensor plate (had mine done in Bulgaria + shipping back and forth DHL) and that was still 1/3 the price of the new part.
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Yes, a very sad state of affairs. Hopefully there will still be some option when it's time to replace my current car. People just want to drive their living room couch any more. There's no passion for cars. Not when the most boring car ont he planet, the Toyota Camry, is selling like hotcakes AND dares market itself as "bold". Can't be bothered with all that 'work', they need hands free to be able to text while driving. I've always said, if more people had manual transmissions, there would be fewer accidents - because you can't just sit back and daydream, you have the DRIVE the car.
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Yes, a very sad state of affairs. Hopefully there will still be some option when it's time to replace my current car. People just want to drive their living room couch any more. There's no passion for cars. Not when the most boring car ont he planet, the Toyota Camry, is selling like hotcakes AND dares market itself as "bold". Can't be bothered with all that 'work', they need hands free to be able to text while driving. I've always said, if more people had manual transmissions, there would be fewer accidents - because you can't just sit back and daydream, you have the DRIVE the car.
There are the same accidents if they use automatic or manual transmission, because when the people are an traffic jam somebody always tend viewing at moon.
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VW hit by flood of new lawsuits in emissions scandal
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37429466 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37429466)
mostly from butthurt investors
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Yes, a very sad state of affairs. Hopefully there will still be some option when it's time to replace my current car. People just want to drive their living room couch any more. There's no passion for cars. Not when the most boring car ont he planet, the Toyota Camry, is selling like hotcakes AND dares market itself as "bold". Can't be bothered with all that 'work', they need hands free to be able to text while driving. I've always said, if more people had manual transmissions, there would be fewer accidents - because you can't just sit back and daydream, you have the DRIVE the car.
These days even sport cars come with air condition, power steering, audio systems, and automatic transmission (up/down paddles don't count). Humanity is doomed.
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Yes, a very sad state of affairs. Hopefully there will still be some option when it's time to replace my current car. People just want to drive their living room couch any more. There's no passion for cars. Not when the most boring car ont he planet, the Toyota Camry, is selling like hotcakes AND dares market itself as "bold". Can't be bothered with all that 'work', they need hands free to be able to text while driving. I've always said, if more people had manual transmissions, there would be fewer accidents - because you can't just sit back and daydream, you have the DRIVE the car.
These days even sport cars come with air condition, power steering, audio systems, and automatic transmission (up/down paddles don't count). Humanity is doomed.
not the one tha I am looking for
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/ArielAtom5807.jpg)
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not the one tha I am looking for
Last I heard, these cars are hard to street license here. It falls under the category of an experimental car and the state issues only a hundred or so licenses in that category every year.
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not the one tha I am looking for
Last I heard, these cars are hard to street license here. It falls under the category of an experimental car and the state issues only a hundred or so licenses in that category every year.
Ah. Good old state protectionism in "The land of the free". Land of crony capitalists or mafia unions more like.
In New Jersey it is even illegal to pump your own petrol! (gasoline).
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not the one tha I am looking for
Last I heard, these cars are hard to street license here. It falls under the category of an experimental car and the state issues only a hundred or so licenses in that category every year.
this one has a (pimped) Honda Civic engine and achieves Euro 5 emission limits. the mfgr constantly has to upgrade the model to keep up with EU safety regulations, but yes it is street legal.
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Just checked the DYI car street licensing of my state. Apparently the annual quota is now sufficient to satisfy the demand. If I got it correctly, cars in that category are exempt from emission compliance ('smog').
http://bauerltd.com/the-magical-sb100-registering-your-car-in-california/ (http://bauerltd.com/the-magical-sb100-registering-your-car-in-california/)
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Just checked the DYI car street licensing of my state. Apparently the annual quota is now sufficient to satisfy the demand. If I got it correctly, cars in that category are exempt from emission compliance ('smog').
http://bauerltd.com/the-magical-sb100-registering-your-car-in-california/ (http://bauerltd.com/the-magical-sb100-registering-your-car-in-california/)
That one in my picture is not DIY, it is series manufactured and sold by Ariel Motor Company in UK. It just looks like DIY, but that has a different reason. They made it as lightweight as possible by leaving out everything that is not needed for acceleration, braking or steering. It weighs only 500kg and has 350BHP. You can imagine the acceleration, it outperforms almost all street legal, series production supercars and bikes: 2.9secs for 0~100km/h. I have driven it a few times, I have no words to describe that.
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Ariel Atom V8 :)
https://youtu.be/9zNPFcn3pAw
500bhp in a 550kg car.
https://youtu.be/SIiWhWpzFQQ
Verstuurd vanaf mijn ZTE A2017G met Tapatalk
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not the one tha I am looking for
You know... i would prefer a car i could also use when the sun is not shining ;)
(By the way, nice picture of the Atom you found there. Putting tiny USA flags on a British sports car... tsk, tsk...)
(http://cdn2.evo.co.uk/sites/evo/files/styles/gallery_adv/public/images/dir_39/car_photo_19839.jpg)
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Volkswagen was awarded an Ig-Nobel prize (http://www.improbable.com/ig/winners/) in Chemistry this year for:
CHEMISTRY PRIZE [GERMANY] — Volkswagen, for solving the problem of excessive automobile pollution emissions by automatically, electromechanically producing fewer emissions whenever the cars are being tested.
Unfortunately none of VW inventors attended the ceremony.
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bump!
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2017/02/22/audi-engineer-had-smoking-dieselgate-gun-in-his-safe-pulls-it-in-court/#53c6a2b32423 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2017/02/22/audi-engineer-had-smoking-dieselgate-gun-in-his-safe-pulls-it-in-court/#53c6a2b32423)
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That's a juicy tidbit. There are a few reports of internal papers all pointing to a quite active involvement of Audi. Audi's board denied any allegations from the start, but they can't do that any longer with all the revelations.
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That one in my picture is not DIY, it is series manufactured and sold by Ariel Motor Company in UK.
That makes the guy in the background wearing the Trump "Make America Grate" hat even more poignant ;D