Warning over USB chargers after woman dies from apparent electrocution

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/warning-over-usb-chargers-after-woman-dies-from-apparent-electrocution-20140626-zsngd.html

Mr Stowe said authorities were not aware until now of the large number of the cheap chargers that were available for sale in NSW.

That's what I'll be saying in court anyway.

People should also not use any electrical devices while they are plugged in and charging.

That might be hard.

Anyone with information about unapproved and non-compliant electrical or gas products should contact Fair Trading on 13 32 20.

Go to your nearest hardware store.

[jlmoon]

Yes, and the other day I was evaluating some UL approved (had the holographic UL label affixed) power strips made in China.  Scratching my head on the grounding contact design, wondering how on earth those got approved. 

[PA0PBZ]

... the grounding contact design, wondering how on earth those got approved. 

[jlmoon]

yeah.. yeah.. I know .. a play on words.. indeed!

[mazurov]

Yes, and the other day I was evaluating some UL approved (had the holographic UL label affixed) power strips made in China.  Scratching my head on the grounding contact design, wondering how on earth those got approved.

Aren't holographic UL labels available on eBay/Aliexpress for a small price? I thought that's how most of Chinese products got approved.

Chinese also like to fake CE. They like it so much that some time ago they invented the "China Export" mark which looks very much like CE to an unaided eye -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Export#China_Export

[mikeselectricstuff]

Mr Stowe said authorities were not aware until now of the large number of the cheap chargers that were available for sale in NSW.

So Mr. Stowe, considering stuff like this has been on sale for years, how do you explain your incompetence?
It is your job to notice stuff like this.

[sleemanj]

Chinese also like to fake CE. They like it so much that some time ago they invented the "China Export" mark

No thery didn't.  This has been discussed here several times.  Even the wikipedia article you linked says this is a misconception. 

Sent from my HTC Dream using Tapatalk 2

[Bored@Work]

So Mr. Stowe, considering stuff like this has been on sale for years, how do you explain your incompetence?

Just like with his peers in the EU competence was not a job requirement. Being able to actively look away for the greater good of businesses was a job requirement. Their he failed.

[jlmoon]

breaks out his mag-glass to inspect a little closer.. that CE label.. 

I just know they are some cheap sheit!!!!..

[SeanB]

Mr Stowe said authorities were not aware until now of the large number of the cheap chargers that were available for sale in NSW.

So Mr. Stowe, considering stuff like this has been on sale for years, how do you explain your incompetence?
It is your job to notice stuff like this.

It was not noticed, as they were busy with decorating the offices, arranging junkets for all and sundry and debating the decor and what colour the floor, curtains and the furniture should be. That and seeing what staff car they could get and just how much they could get as "essential office equipment" and then getting the conference rooms set up for the thousands of pages of reports generated each month about these things.

Compliance, safety, oversight, those are done by somebody, possibly the guy in the little room buried in the back of a basement somewhere, with no phone, budget or anything like tools. Or did he get retrenched last year and nobody noticed.

[Jeroen3]

I've opened up one €5 charger you can buy in the Netherlands and I was shocked by the contents. Since then I'm only using genuine Apple chargers. I don't care that they are €20 anymore.
And what happens, Apple recalls its charger...

We use to say around here that Chinese people are born with the CE mark (with the wrong spacing) on their fingers.

[Riotpack]

If you have seen episode 388 of the eevblog, you will see inside a cheap USB charger and learn about how dangerous they are.

I wonder how many millions of these death traps are floating around ready to kill.

Even if they "work" at 230V, a device plugged in nearby could produce an inductive kick when switched off and cause an arc over from primary to secondary on these cheap supplies.

[GEuser]

That's a bummer .

Anyone remember the many indoor portable heater fires and deaths out here 15? or so years ago due to a faulty switch (I don't remember the company either , was  it kambrook?) , I seem to recall the punishment was the person directly in charge was demoted to a large pharmaceutical company? , not even jail-time .

[Riotpack]

I remember a certain model goldair fan heater was recalled. The mains plug and lead could get too hot and melt.

Consumers want the products as cheap as possible and the Chinese seem more than happy to oblige.

[HKJ]

It is not really surprising that accidents happens with these chargers, some of them are down to 0.5 mm isolation distance or using a 1000VDC capacitor between mains and low voltage.
I did check a couple of them here: http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/usbPowerSupplyTest%20UK.html
The check includes both performance measurements and a look inside.

[WackyGerman]

Well here in Germany there are the same problems with lots of cheap electrical stuff . The CE declaration could not be taken seriously because the mark is fixed on every item you can buy here in Europe , even on the worst cheapest crap . The customs make some control samples when the containers arrived and that s all . The crap companies even counterfeit the TÜV Certification so it is difficult for the consumers to check if the unit is ok to use or not .
In Europe we have RAPEX . It is a list of dangerous products which are still on the market or were removed and there are many many products listed in there . But seriously , does anybody look in the lists for many many hours before they buy a fan or a heater for example ? I don t think so .
 Well the fees for the traders and companies are much too low  87000 Aus$ and/or two years imprisonment for the traders and 875000 $ for the company sound like a really bad joke . They play with the life of the people and make millions of bucks with selling crap so normally they have to be punished like murders because they murder people with their unsafe products . 875000 $ is not a disincentive to the companies so they don t care about it .

[bookaboo]

It is not really surprising that accidents happens with these chargers, some of them are down to 0.5 mm isolation distance or using a 1000VDC capacitor between mains and low voltage.
I did check a couple of them here: http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/usbPowerSupplyTest%20UK.html
The check includes both performance measurements and a look inside.

An excellent read, great tear downs and analysis.
The problem is Joe public loves to "sort by price" on ebay and amazon and has no idea of the dangers. I've often warned people that if they buy a mains product for £2.99 delivered it simply can't be safe, part of the problem is the likes of apple love to price gouge on batteries and chargers.

[GEuser]

I remember a certain model goldair fan heater was recalled. The mains plug and lead could get too hot and melt.

Consumers want the products as cheap as possible and the Chinese seem more than happy to oblige.

Nope it was not that one , this other one was like 30? houses got torched and 10? or so people/kids unfortunately copped it , it was real serious stuff .(apologies if anyone associated reads this)

And i'll disagree a bit on the consumers comment on blaming only the consumer , the consumer did not design a product and also made it so cheap that it was actually dangerous and/or unlawful? , it's those bean counters up the top in a lot of other countries who want to make as much profit as they can are the ones and send their designs over to China with the specifications exactly on how to make it and what to use when doing so , so in a lot of instances China is not at fault either as they just be doing what they are told or being paid to do or they don't get paid (but I don't know in this threads topic who did what) , the consumer pays in good faith? or most times I do personally , just a thought .

[GEuser]

It is not really surprising that accidents happens with these chargers, some of them are down to 0.5 mm isolation distance or using a 1000VDC capacitor between mains and low voltage.
I did check a couple of them here: http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/usbPowerSupplyTest%20UK.html
The check includes both performance measurements and a look inside.

Typing about looking inside , but a explanation first .

I'm a hobbyist , not a "expert" , and over the years have learnt a bit about this or that and where it's not best to poke the finger , that's why I'm here as here fits in with the hobby .

So over the years all the different types stuff I have brought home from the Tip (or dump or refuse place or garbage dump or nowadays a recycling centre) just to pull apart and see how it works or if it interests me to use and repair but never for a dollar is quite a lot of stuff and heaps mostly went back too the tip! , it has amazed me sometimes that some very expensive common brand name gear has ever been sold legally in certain circumstances , bogy wiring , mains so close to low dc , so narrow tracks that small bugs fry themselves and the equipment very poor component choices or even what seems deliberate failure after the warranty built in and all that type of things , and that's going back 20 years or so with big name high dollars bits of stuff (household or general consumer stuff) .

[EEVblog]

Absolutely clueless segment on tonight's The Project TV show
They got this guy on to try and explain it 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Blasina
I'll post the video once it's up online.

[WackyGerman]

Absolutely clueless segment on tonight's The Project TV show
They got this guy on to try and explain it 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Blasina
I'll post the video once it's up online.

This makes me really curious Dave . I am really looking for this video . 

[Kjelt]

No problem to use these devices as long as you are very well isolated 

[AlfBaz]

Absolutely clueless segment on tonight's The Project TV show

Just one clueless segment on that show!?!?

[VK3DRB]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-27/knock-off-usb-charger-to-blame-for-womans-death/5555138

The victim was electrocuted by her non-compliant USB charger.

If someone is electrocuted by a non-compliant device, is it the user, importer or government's fault; or a combination of them all?

The user - bought something without checking compliance marks.
The importer - imported rubbish from China without checking the compliance marks.
The government - they let it happen.

I tend to blame the federal government for deaths from imported non-compliant main powered rubbish. Sure they have regulations, but they fail miserably to police them. Its a bit late to investigate AFTER someone has died. Except for laser pointers and tasers, I can buy any dangerous piece of electronics rubbish from communist China on eBay right now and import it here - no questions asked. I can also import illegal transmitters that can transmit of emergency services frequencies - no questions asked.

Is it time for governments to police dangerous imports?

[chrisc]

Wonder if the premises had a earth leakage breaker? If so (and I would hope this is likely given it's 2014), perhaps the cause was bridging between active & neutral ... though if so I would suspect that would require a more complicated series of events?

If there was no earth leakage breaker (or it was non-functional) then given it was rented premises there may be some questions the property owner needs to answer.

[GeoffS]

There's no requirement to have  RCD's installed in a residential property unless it's in a new dwelling but if
it's  a rented property then it must have them  installed (in most Australian states but not all)

[WackyGerman]

Absolutely clueless segment on tonight's The Project TV show
They got this guy on to try and explain it 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Blasina
I'll post the video once it's up online.

This makes me really curious Dave . I am really looking for this video . 

Don't be too curious. Watching it will be a bit like eating a Big Mac. Not very filling, not good for you and you will regret it immediately afterwards. Definitely not informative.

Well that is what I expected . They are kidding the people with worthless blablabla bullshit . No expertise about anything , saying nothing with many words . The same like all private tv station shows in Germany . Energy waste of producing this crap . So the business with these dangerous stuff goes on . It s hopeless 

[chrisc]

Is it time for governments to police dangerous imports?

Depends on what you mean by 'police'. Unless we expect them to physically inspect the contents of every package that goes through customs (which would end up costing us, the consumer, heaps) then these type of goods will always be able to get in (and even with inspection it may still happen, in the case of forged markings or after-approval design changes).

So the government polices it by in part random inspections and in part the force of regulatory law penalties to discourage the distribution of non-compliant devices.

Now that this incident has demonstrated that this apparently isn't sufficient (given the number of crappy chargers we know are out there) we can expect a crackdown.

Sadly though someone lost their life to bring this to the attention of the public in general.

[What_NZ]

This may only apply to New Zealand and Australia but the problem started (imo) when the government stopped requiring such products to be tested for Regulatory compliance in the country of distribution.

In New Zealand and I'm sure Australia is the same, the Regulatory Authority will accept Test Reports from Overseas Accredited Testing Laboratories.  The problem is, those Test Reports can be easily forged by the oversea manufacturer and then sent to the importer/distributor. All the importer/distributor is required to do is make a Statutory Declaration of compliance and file the reports.

It is only when something goes wrong with the product in the market place, that the Regulatory Authority comes visiting. Even they don't know the Test Reports are fake until the Overseas Accredited Testing Laboratory is contacted.

So how and why would you blame the importer/distributor. IMO it is the system the government implemented that is to blame.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

So how does an Australian consumer know if an item off the shelf complies under the Declared Article (electrical safety) regime?

We do not even have a CTick equivalent logo for electrical safety yet, but they are working on it. At least you Europeans have some logo to look for. CTick is apparently just EMI compliance.http://www.erac.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86&Itemid=520

Apparently you can look up a piece of equipment on this borked database. But I haven't actually managed to pull a single result out of it.
https://equipment.erac.gov.au/Public/

[HKJ]

At least you Europeans have some logo to look for.

How does that help?

This usb charger:


Has about 1mm safety distance between mains and low voltage side:

[What_NZ]

So how does an Australian consumer know if an item off the shelf complies under the Declared Article (electrical safety) regime?

We do not even have a CTick equivalent logo for electrical safety yet, but they are working on it. At least you Europeans have some logo to look for. CTick is apparently just EMI compliance.http://www.erac.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86&Itemid=520

Apparently you can look up a piece of equipment on this borked database. But I haven't actually managed to pull a single result out of it.
https://equipment.erac.gov.au/Public/

The RCM (Regulatory Compliance Mark) is for Electrical safety. Yes, the C-Tick is only for EMC (Electromagnetic Compatibility)

[EEVblog]

Has about 1mm safety distance between mains and low voltage side:

Not to mention whatever dicky transformer is used that they could get at the markets that week.

[EEVblog]

The victim was electrocuted by her non-compliant USB charger.
If someone is electrocuted by a non-compliant device, is it the user, importer or government's fault; or a combination of them all?
The user - bought something without checking compliance marks.
The importer - imported rubbish from China without checking the compliance marks.
The government - they let it happen.

The importer could be in the clear if they believe they were buying compliant products, but it turned out to be a fake.
Some of these items are very hard to spot.
Liability usually involves a "best intentions" clause of some sort.

Is it time for governments to police dangerous imports?

They already do, but it's done a reported basis. They can't possibly ever have even a fraction of the resources required to police everything.

[HKJ]

Not to mention whatever dicky transformer is used that they could get at the markets that week.

There is probably a lot more wrong with it.
On the other side of that 1mm spacing is a 1000VDC capacitor between mains and low volt.

[GEuser]

They had a TV news report on it just 1 hour ago , in the tv footage they zoomed in on a device picked from a shelf/holder and still in the packet (in the shop?) and clearly showed the price sticker $12.98 .

Then the next report was a young bloke electrocuted at a work site (deceased) .

[amyk]

Honestly I think it's just another freak accident, I really wouldn't be so worried... give how few of these deaths have occurred, and the number of unapproved chargers in use, the risk isn't all that high.

Here's an interesting fact: in the US, more people die in car accidents every day than the number electrocuted by consumer products (including but not limited to USB chargers) in a year:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in_U.S._by_year
http://www.cpsc.gov/Media/Documents/Research--Statistics/Injury-Statistics/Electrocutions/2008-Electrocutions-Associated-With-Consumer-Products/

when she was found dead with burns on her ears and chest, in an apparent electrocution.[...]Mr Stowe said she was found with a lap top and headphones in her ears.

This is extremely bizarre. How did the current pass through her...?

[What_NZ]

Did you notice in the video at 00:40 the reporter said "which have no insulation pins" but the photo on the screen shows one that does!
Stupid news media, hardly ever get their facts right!

[HKJ]

when she was found dead with burns on her ears and chest, in an apparent electrocution.[...]Mr Stowe said she was found with a lap top and headphones in her ears.

This is extremely bizarre. How did the current pass through her...?
[/quote]

A guess: Laptop was connected to earth, either through the power supply or the network cable (Network cable is unlikely, it requires STP cable).

[peter.mitchell]

when she was found dead with burns on her ears and chest, in an apparent electrocution.[...]Mr Stowe said she was found with a lap top and headphones in her ears.

This is extremely bizarre. How did the current pass through her...?

I assume there was in insulation breakdown between the active on the primary and the ground on the secondary side of the board, which put her earbuds at 300~v, and her laptop was plugged in charging, with a non-floating charger and with it resting on her chest, she may have had bare skin in contact with a grounded part of the laptop (usb port shield/fan grille/case screw/???).

At least if that was the case it would have been somewhat quick.

[tszaboo]

People should also not use any electrical devices while they are plugged in and charging.

That might be hard.

I better unplug my laptop, and wait untill my battery dies. My boss will love that my productivity dropped to 50%. There should be a law to not allow stupid people make statements.

[jlmoon]

when she was found dead with burns on her ears and chest, in an apparent electrocution.[...]Mr Stowe said she was found with a lap top and headphones in her ears.

This is extremely bizarre. How did the current pass through her...?

A guess: Laptop was connected to earth, either through the power supply or the network cable (Network cable is unlikely, it requires STP cable).
[/quote]

I would venture to guess the Laptop with possibly a metal case became a 'Grounding Pad' for her potentially Hot body.. 

[staxquad]

as Sheldon Cooper would say, "Everything is better with Bluetooth".



she wouldn't have been shocked if she wore Bluetooth headphones 

[SeanB]

Unless she was charging them as the little battery was dead.

[VK3DRB]

At least you Europeans have some logo to look for.

How does that help?

This usb charger:

The CE mark on the label is BOGUS. The adapter does not have CE compliance.

Rather than the government inspecting every brand of electrical goods entering the country, they should do a random sample inspection.

$10000 fine for companies and $1000 fine for individuals per offence will not only fund the inspection operation, but also fix the problem. As for eBay, the onus should be on the importer, not No Idea Electrical Co. Ltd. in the so-called People's Republic of China.

 

[AintBigAintClever]

Typical dangerous crap from China. Here's a scan of the PCB in my fake Panasonic DMW-AC5 charger. Fortunately I only needed it for the proprietary charging cable fitted to it.

[tom66]

Nothing intrinsically wrong with live-to-neutral distances, worst it'll do is pop a fuse or breaker... it's a live to output or earth fault you want to avoid really badly.

Given I found Poundworld (£1 discount shop, similar to Poundland/Dollar-Tree), a chain with about 500 storefronts selling fake iPhone chargers which were insanely dangerous, I don't hold much hope. Also B&Q had a recall notice out recently for the similar fake chargers -- and they were flogging them at £10 a pop!

[VK3DRB]

The bloke from NSW Fair Trading said "From time to time there are non-compliant products." Complete and utter  . He does not mention eBay where much of the stuff bought from China is non-compliant. In Victoria, one find non-compliant products in variety shops, shopping malls, markets, petrol stations and hardware stores.

Safety has come a poor second to greedy communist Chinese business owners and their corrupt government officials, and the greedy westerners who like to profit from exploiter labour and shift their pollution off shore. Greed is the common bond between China and the West. "To Get Rich is Glorious!"

It would be great if electronics was once again all made in countries with high quality and safety standards like the USA, Australia, Japan, Singapore, the UK and Western Europe, and communist China was shut down.

Bring back protectionism.

[SeanB]

You do know Japan post war was a place that made shoddy stuff cheap. Now after a few generations they have learnt that quality is better. China is still learning, and they are quite capable of making good quality, but if the buyers are only caring about price and the outside appearance then you will always find shoddy quality stuff.

Chinese made packing equipment is about 10% of the cost of the US made stuff, and spares are about 5% of the cost of same. They have the same lifetime as well. Not surprising seeing that many of them are made in the same factories, just the markup is different.

[vk3pb]

Dave

I've been following the tragic news about the lady who was electrocuted recently using a cheapie plugpack and also watching your teardowns of these death traps.

I'd like to make a suggestion for an EEVblog episode with two elements to it. The intended audience is non-technical types who might watch your blogs although the technical types will enjoy it as well.

First suggestion is to get a few of these cheapie plugpacks that are dangerous and simulate the circumstances that could cause the circuit to fail eg a voltage spike etc. You would have a test setup so that if the cheapie plugpack fails a soft toy or something catches fire and begins to burn. The more graphic and more smoke the better. People love to see stuff blow up.

Second suggestion. Having demonstrated the perils of cheapie Shenzhen plugpacks you could then point people to reputable websites or stores where they can get reliable and safe plugpacks at reasonable prices. Perhaps people on the forum could suggest suppliers they have found to be reliable. The plugpacks ans chargers would be for common items like phones, tablets etc.

Such a segment would no only be entertaining (and graphic) but also educate the public on how they can, at a reasonable price, get a reliable plugpack.
   
cheers

Peter VK3PB

[What_NZ]

I just bought two of these from Officeworks (The countries largest office supply chain). They were only $2ea
http://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/e3-dual-usb-ac-adaptor-aqua-e3psa004bl?searchTerm=e3

and...........

sorry I don't know what you're trying to tell us. Is it that, they don't comply with regulations or they do or

[Bored@Work]

The bloke from NSW Fair Trading said "From time to time there are non-compliant products." Complete and utter  .

Is it part of the Australian political culture to organize a write-in campaign? Because it seems like an opportunity that you in Australia try to organize one, while there is some media attention.

[WackyGerman]

Well it s a mess with all these cheap adapters . Well I found a good solution for the USB charger desease .

Look at this :http://www.busch-jaeger.de/en/products/product-solutions/socket-outlets/schukor-usb-socket-outlet/

If you fix some sockets of these once you don t need to look for the chargers in the past . I think it is a really good idea of the company . The integrated USB Charger is short circuit and overload protected so they are safe . But one of these puppy cost 50 € and if you re not an electrician you need one to fit it so it s not really cheap but really useful and innovative I think .  for this solution

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

I assume that they would comply, but how can I know?

It seems we have a mark that isn't mandatory yet.
http://www.acma.gov.au/Industry/Suppliers/Supplier-resources/Supplier-overview/new-single-compliance-mark

[mamalala]

So how and why would you blame the importer/distributor. IMO it is the system the government implemented that is to blame.

Because ultimately it is the importers responsibility to make sure that the goods he sells are in compliance with the local regulations. The consumer can't be burdened with verifying if a mark on a device, or the paperwork that comes with it, it genuine or not. The government has put in place regulations and rules that have to be followed. It's always up to the businesses selling that stuff to make sure it all is OK.

However, what could (and in my opinion should) be changed are the penalties for businesses selling unsafe products. They should be kicked out of business and held fully liable for any harm done, up to a personal level of the business owner/managers. That should give them an incentive to better do their homework in the first place instead of focussing on profits. As soon as it gets to their personal money and freedom, they will be way more careful, i think.

Greetings,

Chris

[mamalala]

The CE mark on the label is BOGUS. The adapter does not have CE compliance.

The problem with CE is not the mark. While there is a set standard of how it should like, even if the proper mark was shown it says exactly nothing about compliance. The reason simply is that there is no requirement to have it tested in any way. Everyone can slap a CE mark on their product at will. All that does is saying "we say that is device is compliant". There is nothing in the regulations that says "you must have it checked by a proper, accredited test facility, have proper paperwork about it from the test facility, etc.". _That_ is the real problem with CE, not the typography.

Greetings,

Chris

[VK3DRB]

You do know Japan post war was a place that made shoddy stuff cheap. Now after a few generations they have learnt that quality is better. China is still learning, and they are quite capable of making good quality, but if the buyers are only caring about price and the outside appearance then you will always find shoddy quality stuff.

Chinese made packing equipment is about 10% of the cost of the US made stuff, and spares are about 5% of the cost of same. They have the same lifetime as well. Not surprising seeing that many of them are made in the same factories, just the markup is different.

If the same product is made in the US and China, consumers will flock to their communist comrades every time if they can save a few dollars. Money is god for the typical Western consumer, so worker exploitation, exporting pollution and jobs, and product safety does not even register on their conscience.

In Australia many cars are painted black, dark grey or silver - they are well camouflaged.  The owners of these cars put face saving at a higher priority than the safety of their own family. A much safer option is orange, yellow or red. The point is, some consumers don't really care about safety.

[AndyC_772]

Everyone can slap a CE mark on their product at will. All that does is saying "we say that is device is compliant". There is nothing in the regulations that says "you must have it checked by a proper, accredited test facility, have proper paperwork about it from the test facility, etc.". _That_ is the real problem with CE, not the typography.

That's not quite true. The CE mark is a declaration that the product conforms with all applicable regulations, and it's a requirement that a technical file be maintained which contains the evidence to back up that declaration, including any test results, lists of critical components, and any changes which have been made to the product since conformance testing was carried out.

It's the responsibility of whoever places the product on the European market to ensure that the product is compliant. Authorities can request a copy of the technical file at any time, and if one doesn't exist, then the seller of the product is wide open to prosecution if the product is deemed non-compliant.

Having an accurate technical file doesn't mean immunity from prosecution if the product is non-compliant, but it is a good defence in court.

[VK3DRB]

The CE mark on the label is BOGUS. The adapter does not have CE compliance.

The problem with CE is not the mark. While there is a set standard of how it should like, even if the proper mark was shown it says exactly nothing about compliance. The reason simply is that there is no requirement to have it tested in any way. Everyone can slap a CE mark on their product at will. All that does is saying "we say that is device is compliant". There is nothing in the regulations that says "you must have it checked by a proper, accredited test facility, have proper paperwork about it from the test facility, etc.". _That_ is the real problem with CE, not the typography.

Greetings,

Chris

The mark is wrong, so it is not compliant. Part of the compliance is getting the mark right.

That label does not have the mandatory C-tick or RCM mark, so it is illegal to sell it in Australia. A legitimate CE mark is not enough. To sell the product here, you have to put your registered RCM or C-Tick mark on the product, irrespective of whether it has a CE mark. The importer is obliged to ensure it has been formally tested to at least Australian safety and EMC/EMI standards and to keep records.

Regarding the poor victim who got electrocuted, the importer may end up with a lengthy prison term if the product was clearly non-compliant.

[What_NZ]

Everyone can slap a CE mark on their product at will. All that does is saying "we say that is device is compliant". There is nothing in the regulations that says "you must have it checked by a proper, accredited test facility, have proper paperwork about it from the test facility, etc.". _That_ is the real problem with CE, not the typography.

That's not quite true. The CE mark is a declaration that the product conforms with all applicable regulations, and it's a requirement that a technical file be maintained which contains the evidence to back up that declaration, including any test results, lists of critical components, and any changes which have been made to the product since conformance testing was carried out.

It's the responsibility of whoever places the product on the European market to ensure that the product is compliant. Authorities can request a copy of the technical file at any time, and if one doesn't exist, then the seller of the product is wide open to prosecution if the product is deemed non-compliant.

Having an accurate technical file doesn't mean immunity from prosecution if the product is non-compliant, but it is a good defence in court.

But what if those test reports are fake and were supplied by the manufacturer?
In NZ and Australia the Regulatory Authority will accept test reports from an Overseas Accredited Laboratory. The test reports are sent by the manufacturer to the importer. There is no requirement for the importer to validate with the Testing Laboratory that the product was actually tested by them.

[What_NZ]

Hey folks, I think it is important to remember there are different standards and different markings required by each country.
This is not a one size fits all discussion. Maybe best to say "In <insert my country here> ............"
Not everyone will remember to look at your Flag before replying.

[AndyC_772]

To sell the product here, you have to put your registered RCM or C-Tick mark on the product, irrespective of whether it has a CE mark. The importer is obliged to ensure it has been formally tested to at least Australian safety and EMC/EMI standards and to keep records.

Meanwhile, in another thread, someone from Australia is complaining about how much more expensive stuff is than in the US or Europe...

But what if those test reports are fake and were supplied by the manufacturer?
In NZ and Australia the Regulatory Authority will accept test reports from an Overseas Accredited Laboratory. The test reports are sent by the manufacturer to the importer. There is no requirement for the importer to validate with the Testing Laboratory that the product was actually tested by them.

Where do you stop? You could insist on an audit trail a mile long, and even then you'd have absolutely no idea whether the products being shipped are actually the same as the (externally) identical one that was tested and certified. Do you insist that a sample from every batch is destructively tested? More than one sample? To what extent is the testing done? By whom, and with what expertise?

What level of testing and paperwork do you insist legitimate manufacturers will go through, and what are you prepared to pay for? Bearing in mind, of course, that less scrupulous sellers will still continue to ignore the rules and sell non-compliant product anyway.

[AintBigAintClever]

I just bought two of these from Officeworks (The countries largest office supply chain). They were only $2ea
http://www.officeworks.com.au/shop/officeworks/e3-dual-usb-ac-adaptor-aqua-e3psa004bl?searchTerm=e3

For two bucks it'd be worth tearing one open for a look. If it's dangerous, report them and/or name & shame.

[What_NZ]

But what if those test reports are fake and were supplied by the manufacturer?
In NZ and Australia the Regulatory Authority will accept test reports from an Overseas Accredited Laboratory. The test reports are sent by the manufacturer to the importer. There is no requirement for the importer to validate with the Testing Laboratory that the product was actually tested by them.

Where do you stop? You could insist on an audit trail a mile long, and even then you'd have absolutely no idea whether the products being shipped are actually the same as the (externally) identical one that was tested and certified. Do you insist that a sample from every batch is destructively tested? More than one sample? To what extent is the testing done? By whom, and with what expertise?

What level of testing and paperwork do you insist legitimate manufacturers will go through, and what are you prepared to pay for? Bearing in mind, of course, that less scrupulous sellers will still continue to ignore the rules and sell non-compliant product anyway.

I can only speak in regards to New Zealand and Australia, something I know about because Regulatory Compliance was a part of my job for 5 years. I have already alluded to some of the problems in post #29.
At least when test reports were done locally you could be confident that the sample(s) tested complied with regulatory standards. When the test reports are done overseas you have to put your trust in the manufacturer.
Manufactures and Importers have to go through whatever testing and paperwork the law requires. The regulatory costs were between $1500 - $5000 per product model number. Usually paid for by the manufacturer anyway.
Importers are required to randomly (is the easiest way) check a sample number of the products to insure the product being sold is the same as the product that was tested in the Test Reports. Yes, that means they have to open up a random sample of units and check that they are the same as the photo's taken in the test report. If that means the product is destroyed by opening it up, who cares; it's just a cost of doing business.  Also any engineering changes (design, component) done by the manufacture may (if they change safety or EMC characteristics) require the product to be retested.
Large companies do this but of course smaller importers probably don't.
It is up to the Regulatory Authority to check what is being sold but I would say it is mainly left to the consumer to find and report it. In New Zealand and Australia it wouldn't be hard to identify that AC Adapter shown by VK3DRB in post #45 didn't comply.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

I suppose this kind of thing happens everyday, so it's no surprise it happened again today.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/second-knockoff-usb-charger-explodes-20140628-zspip.html

‘‘The whole house smelt like gun powder. I was shocked.’’
The explosion caused the electricity supply to short circuit in three bedrooms, and at one of the loungeroom power points.
‘‘Who knows what would have happened if we didn’t have a circuit breaker,’’ Ms Sommerville said.

Luckily circuit breakers are mandatory, so we don't have to wonder.

[What_NZ]

I suppose this kind of thing happens everyday, so it's no surprise it happened again today.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/second-knockoff-usb-charger-explodes-20140628-zspip.html

‘‘The whole house smelt like gun powder. I was shocked.’’
The explosion caused the electricity supply to short circuit in three bedrooms, and at one of the loungeroom power points.
‘‘Who knows what would have happened if we didn’t have a circuit breaker,’’ Ms Sommerville said.

Luckily circuit breakers are mandatory, so we don't have to wonder.

And
"The explosion caused the electricity supply to short circuit in three bedrooms, and at one of the loungeroom power points."

No, it just blew the circuit breaker and it so happened those power points were on the same circuit.

[amyk]

Using "I was shocked" in such an article isn't the best idea, unless the current flowed through someone...

How many of these chargers are produced and in use every day? Tens or hundreds of millions at least. Even something like a 0.001% failure rate translates into quite a few dying all the time, some more excitingly than others.

There were a few electrocuted in China last year too, I think there's a thread on it here. Considering how many of them are in use, are the majority of the deaths not being reported? Or maybe people just don't die from them often, they're not all that unsafe after all, and there's more hazardous things to worry about...?

[What_NZ]

The media will be all over these types of stories for a few days then they will move onto something more important like "News Flash: Kate Middleton, Duchess Of Cambridge seen wearing new stockings in public"

[42n8]

Exactly how could a woman (or anyone) die from a 5v shock? Anyone?

Yeah, she had the cable in her mouth? Right?
The cable just happens to include the the 0V line so, as normal the current passes negative to positive (non-conventional flow) through her low impedence spit. Yup it will hurt but it won't (can't) kill.

Any other scenario is suicide... End of

Yet another fear-mongering BS hoax...

[at2marty]

Exactly how could a woman (or anyone) die from a 5v shock? Anyone?

Yeah, she had the cable in her mouth? Right?
The cable just happens to include the the 0V line so, as normal the current passes negative to positive (non-conventional flow) through her low impedence spit. Yup it will hurt but it won't (can't) kill.

Any other scenario is suicide... End of

Yet another fear-mongering BS hoax...

Did you bother reading or looking at any of the data presented in this thread?   

[42n8]

Nope
The question isnt that she died... It's how she died. So lets speculate.
a 240V shock was delivered - How?

The internals of the Wall Wart broke? Then what?
I'd have to say that the isolation properties of the transformer were compromised or that there was a direct short.

Neither can be true unless we go with the idea that the manufacturer was incompetant and I don't believe that. The chinese have a "no excuses" policy so I doubt that one would risk the bullet for zero gain. 

Roitpack thinks that its a spark... leaping from one low impedence source to another?  Really?
Tell me how you might generate such a spark and then say "it's the fault of the manufacturer"
I have been a manufacturer in NZ for decades and I'm aware that bad things happen... However, never, in my experience, did so many lightening bolts arranged by the manufacturer occur in so few products, used by so many kill so few.

Here is how it works.
First we have to open circuit the transformer primary, then the broken wire (live side) has to accidently touch the secondary output. (impossible because of wire lengths... they are on two different sides, just as in the schematic) Then, because there is just an air gap we need to bridge it with a giant killer spark.  ... Thanks Riotpack for the insight... tell me again... This time in detail!

Nope too stupid... too stupid... too stupid

I want to see the actual device and hear a real breakdown way before I go with the lies of the establishment.. and so should you all

Suffer not the hoaxes

[AndyC_772]

First we have to open circuit the transformer primary, then the broken wire (live side) has to accidently touch the secondary output. (impossible because of wire lengths... they are on two different sides, just as in the schematic) Then, because there is just an air gap we need to bridge it with a giant killer spark.  ... Thanks Riotpack for the insight... tell me again... This time in detail!

This is a wind-up, right?

Seriously, if you're manufacturing electronic equipment, and THIS is how you think electrical faults occur, then please do us all a favour right now. Step back from the computer, switch it off at the wall, and find a new line of work. Something involving potatoes, or tropical fish, perhaps. Anything that doesn't involve working with electricity.

[bookaboo]

Posted earlier by a forum member
http://www.lygte-info.dk/info/usbPowerSupplyTest%20UK.html

Should answer all your questions

[AintBigAintClever]

I take it you've never seen the insides of these chargers?

Dave's teardown of two fake iPod chargers:


My teardown and load test of both fake and genuine iPod chargers:


When you've got mains voltage tracks around 1mm from the low voltage tracks, you're asking for trouble.

[AintBigAintClever]

Seriously, if you're manufacturing electronic equipment, and THIS is how you think electrical faults occur, then please do us all a favour right now. Step back from the computer, switch it off at the wall, and find a new line of work. Something involving potatoes, or tropical fish, perhaps. Anything that doesn't involve working with electricity.

Better scrub tropical fish from that list or the fluoro ballast will end up in the bottom of the tank next to the rocks and one of those little castle things.

[at2marty]

Nope
The question isnt that she died... It's how she died. So lets speculate.
a 240V shock was delivered - How?

The internals of the Wall Wart broke? Then what?
I'd have to say that the isolation properties of the transformer were compromised or that there was a direct short.

Neither can be true unless we go with the idea that the manufacturer was incompetant and I don't believe that. The chinese have a "no excuses" policy so I doubt that one would risk the bullet for zero gain. 

Roitpack thinks that its a spark... leaping from one low impedence source to another?  Really?
Tell me how you might generate such a spark and then say "it's the fault of the manufacturer"
I have been a manufacturer in NZ for decades and I'm aware that bad things happen... However, never, in my experience, did so many lightening bolts arranged by the manufacturer occur in so few products, used by so many kill so few.

Here is how it works.
First we have to open circuit the transformer primary, then the broken wire (live side) has to accidently touch the secondary output. (impossible because of wire lengths... they are on two different sides, just as in the schematic) Then, because there is just an air gap we need to bridge it with a giant killer spark.  ... Thanks Riotpack for the insight... tell me again... This time in detail!

Nope too stupid... too stupid... too stupid

I want to see the actual device and hear a real breakdown way before I go with the lies of the establishment.. and so should you all

Suffer not the hoaxes

Perhaps you should look at what has been documented and presented before you start claiming "hoax".

[lapm]

In Finland we had nice electrical safety regulations before we joined European Union.. All electrical stuff required mandatory pre-tests to prove they full filled all local safety regulations. And this was before they get license to be sold even to professionals..

Then came EU and now markets are filled with stuff too dangerous even to be dumped in landfill.. Officials do random checks now and then and sometimes they even find something faulty... Not christmas goes by that there is drawback of some faulty christmas lights...

[AndyC_772]

It sounds as though what you had was onerous safety regulations, which would have prevented a lot of perfectly legitimate, safe equipment from being sold in your country because of the paperwork involved.

If there's a problem now, it's that the same officials who previously monitored and enforced your country's specific, local regulations are not NOT enforcing the EU-wide ones.

Say what you like about the EU as an institution, but having a common set of technical and labelling standards, rather than every individual country insisting on its own testing and registration, can surely only be a good thing?

[Tinkerer]

It sounds as though what you had was onerous safety regulations, which would have prevented a lot of perfectly legitimate, safe equipment from being sold in your country because of the paperwork involved.

If there's a problem now, it's that the same officials who previously monitored and enforced your country's specific, local regulations are not NOT enforcing the EU-wide ones.

Say what you like about the EU as an institution, but having a common set of technical and labelling standards, rather than every individual country insisting on its own testing and registration, can surely only be a good thing?

Yea, I think he was saying that the previous regulations were more stringent. Perhaps you are correct that paper work prevented things from being sold, but there is no way you could get that from his post. Mandatory testing doesnt necissarily mean mountains of paper work even if paperwork could have been increased a little.

A widely used uniform standard is better than many different ones, except when they arnt adequate or in many cases overbearing.

[AndyC_772]

I don't think anyone's suggested that the technical standards themselves that apply for CE marking are too lenient. In my experience they're far from it; a product designed to comply with them would typically need to have several, very specific and incredibly unfortunate faults in order to actually present a hazard.

Moreover, the evidence that they work is all around us; millions of pieces of mains powered equipment are sold every year, which must include thousands of sales to people who are extremely unlucky and/or extremely stupid, and yet it's still newsworthy when something actually does blow up or hurt someone.

Think about it quantitatively for a moment... that means electronic equipment is, in general, incredibly safe.

The issue at hand seems to be that equipment is on sale which simply doesn't comply with the regulations, and which is less safe than it should be as a result.

I would argue that, in that case, making the regulations more stringent - either in terms of the technical requirements themselves or the testing and paperwork regime that goes with them - is a waste of time, and likely to be counterproductive.

IMHO it's pointless to increase costs and overheads for legitimate manufacturers of safe equipment when people selling cheap crap will just carry on doing so anyway. Price the honest sellers out of the market, and what's left...?

[Tinkerer]

I don't think anyone's suggested that the technical standards themselves that apply for CE marking are too lenient. In my experience they're far from it; a product designed to comply with them would typically need to have several, very specific and incredibly unfortunate faults in order to actually present a hazard.

Moreover, the evidence that they work is all around us; millions of pieces of mains powered equipment are sold every year, which must include thousands of sales to people who are extremely unlucky and/or extremely stupid, and yet it's still newsworthy when something actually does blow up or hurt someone.

Think about it quantitatively for a moment... that means electronic equipment is, in general, incredibly safe.

The issue at hand seems to be that equipment is on sale which simply doesn't comply with the regulations, and which is less safe than it should be as a result.

I would argue that, in that case, making the regulations more stringent - either in terms of the technical requirements themselves or the testing and paperwork regime that goes with them - is a waste of time, and likely to be counterproductive.

IMHO it's pointless to increase costs and overheads for legitimate manufacturers of safe equipment when people selling cheap crap will just carry on doing so anyway. Price the honest sellers out of the market, and what's left...?

Well I think you are stepping forward a bit more than needed. Yes, I will agree that that overbearing regulations are a bad thing, but you assume that regulations will go straight to that.

Who am I kidding, I dont know why I am 'argueing' this beyond jumps in logic being made. I think that no regulation is better than bad regulation. However, I think a basic layer is needed that more or less says dont lie about your stuff if nothing else than for accountability when someone is found lieing at some point.

[N TYPE]

Exactly how could a woman (or anyone) die from a 5v shock? Anyone?

Yeah, she had the cable in her mouth? Right?
The cable just happens to include the the 0V line so, as normal the current passes negative to positive (non-conventional flow) through her low impedence spit. Yup it will hurt but it won't (can't) kill.

Any other scenario is suicide... End of

Yet another fear-mongering BS hoax...

[What_NZ]

This tread is getting a bit silly.

Amateur speculation and conspiracy theory at its best.

No one with any forensic qualifications, has released any information as to exactly what happened and how it happened.

Wait until the real information is released, instead of speculating on the media's drivel. As Mark Twain was reputed to say "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.”

[VK3DRB]

I take it you've never seen the insides of these chargers?

Dave's teardown of two fake iPod chargers:

When you've got mains voltage tracks around 1mm from the low voltage tracks, you're asking for trouble.

Dave's video is shocking. The dangerous fake chargers is what happens when peasants pretend they are engineers or businessmen. They should be treated the same as terrorists.

[What_NZ]

I take it you've never seen the insides of these chargers?

Dave's teardown of two fake iPod chargers:

When you've got mains voltage tracks around 1mm from the low voltage tracks, you're asking for trouble.

Dave's video is shocking. The dangerous fake chargers is what happens when peasants pretend they are engineers or businessmen. They should be treated the same as terrorists.

How about toning down the Chinese (China) directed slurs. It is neither helpful nor friendly and some may find it down right offensive!

[VK3DRB]

I take it you've never seen the insides of these chargers?

Dave's teardown of two fake iPod chargers:

When you've got mains voltage tracks around 1mm from the low voltage tracks, you're asking for trouble.

Dave's video is shocking. The dangerous fake chargers is what happens when peasants pretend they are engineers or businessmen. They should be treated the same as terrorists.

How about toning down the Chinese (China) directed slurs. It is neither helpful nor friendly and some may find it down right offensive!

You are either too sensitive, or read into it wrongly. I have nothing against Chinese, but everything against those who put innocent lives at risk to make a quick buck. Peasantry implies lack of education, hence the remark. They are no different to drug dealers. I don't care if dodgy manufacturers or importers are offended.

[VK3DRB]

A quick search on eBay for USB chargers indicate you can buy non-compliant chargers (no shielded mains pins) from Australian importers or resellers. The government is clearly asleep at the wheel. If all Australian after-market USB chargers were made in Australia rather than China, that woman might still be alive today. What price is a life? Not much it seems. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, the government does to address the issue.

[What_NZ]

I take it you've never seen the insides of these chargers?

Dave's teardown of two fake iPod chargers:

When you've got mains voltage tracks around 1mm from the low voltage tracks, you're asking for trouble.

Dave's video is shocking. The dangerous fake chargers is what happens when peasants pretend they are engineers or businessmen. They should be treated the same as terrorists.

How about toning down the Chinese (China) directed slurs. It is neither helpful nor friendly and some may find it down right offensive!

You are either too sensitive, or read into it wrongly. I have nothing against Chinese, but everything against those who put innocent lives at risk to make a quick buck. Peasantry implies lack of education, hence the remark. They are no different to drug dealers. I don't care if dodgy manufacturers or importers are offended.

You have nothing against Chinese (China) really? seems to be a theme of yours......

<Quote> rubbish from communist China
<Quote> so-called People's Republic of China
<Quote> greedy communist Chinese business owners and their corrupt government officials
<Quote> and communist China was shut down
<Quote>  their communist comrades

I call BS on your excuse for the use of the word "peasants" in your sentence "The dangerous fake chargers is what happens when peasants pretend they are engineers or businessmen." there is no doubting what you meant. If you meant uneducated then why not just say "the uneducated"

peasant
noun    (Concise Encyclopedia)

Any member of a class that tills the soil as small landowners or agricultural labourers. The peasant economy generally has a simple technology and a division of labour by age and sex. The basic unit of production is the family or household. Peasant families traditionally consume what they produce, though a portion of their output may be sold in the market or paid to a landlord. Productivity per worker and yields per unit of land are usually low. Peasants as a class tend to disappear as a society industrializes, though peasantlike social structures may persist under new economic regimens. See also ejido; feudalism; hacienda; serfdom.

[VK3DRB]

OK, maybe peasant was politically incorrect, and I apologise is anyone was offended.

[What_NZ]

No problems, happy to move on to the real exciting stuff - electronics of course 

[amyk]

If all Australian after-market USB chargers were made in Australia rather than China, that woman might still be alive today.

Or she might've died in a car crash, drowning, heart attack, or any number of other causes that are orders of magnitude more common... not to say that safety is important, but I think the relative risk here has been blown way out of proportion.

[tjaeger]

http://images.smh.com.au/2014/06/27/5550670/mobilegraphic-300x0.jpg

Can we discuss the technical aspects of this?  Sure 240 V is dangerous, but it rarely kills people.  The reason being that there's not usually a low-impedance path to ground.
So what's the deal with that laptop?  Why was it designed as a PELV system?  EMI?  Most laptops are SELV (two-prong power cords), but I do have an older HP laptop that connects GND to PE.
Next what if there had been a GFCI?  Would it have switched fast enough to save her?  Are GFCIs mandated in Australia (for new installations)?
The earphones are weird, too.  Why would they have metal parts on the outside that are connected to the circuit?  Not saying that's particularly dangerous (although it was in this case), but it just seems strange.

[SeanB]

Metal case ear buds will typically not have a direct connection, but the only insulation is the oxide on the aluminium, along with the wire insulation. This can break down at a low voltage, and will not be regarded as insulators above 50V. You do get aluminium with a thick grown oxide layer that is used for high thermal performance insulating washers, but these typically have the oxide layer grown in a high pressure steam process. Regular mill finish may break down at any voltage over 1V depending on the oxide and the contaminants in it.

[FrankenPC]

I've got a solution.  Any company who wants to sell mains attached equipment needs to supply a 1 million dollar bond (USD) against the equipment that they sell.   Let the insurance companies sort it out.  They are legendary at being penny pinchers.

[AndyC_772]

That's pretty much what UL does. When they certify that a product is safe, they underwrite it.

Of course, the cost of testing, auditing and factory inspections has to be borne by the customer, but if you want a product that has this level of QA and insurance behind it, buy one with a UL mark.

[pickle9000]

That's pretty much what UL does. When they certify that a product is safe, they underwrite it.

Of course, the cost of testing, auditing and factory inspections has to be borne by the customer, but if you want a product that has this level of QA and insurance behind it, buy one with a UL mark.

When it comes to counterfeits anything is game (including the UL mark). It's an illegal activity and cost is paramount, everything else is in the can. OEM's need to produce accessories like chargers at a price low enough to make counterfeits unprofitable. Fines, criminal charges and so on are great when you can catch the criminal, but how much of a dent do they really make?



 

[AndyC_772]

Yes, but if you care, you can look up the UL listing for a product on their web site.

[zapta]

I've got a solution.  Any company who wants to sell mains attached equipment needs to supply a 1 million dollar bond (USD) against the equipment that they sell.   Let the insurance companies sort it out.  They are legendary at being penny pinchers.

More government restrictions. That's what we need to achieve utopia. 

Then we need another 1 million dollar bond as a guarantee that the vendor indeed has a valid first 1 million bond.   ;-)

[pickle9000]

Yes, but if you care, you can look up the UL listing for a product on their web site.

Here is guy some images of usb chargers. The Apple charger seems to be a pretty nice forgery. Even if you plugged in the UL number chances are you'd be satisfied, at least early on. Even so how many consumers know what to look for. I know, but that's not a fair comparison to Joe Public. Even if the public did know what to look for, assuming the profit is the the quality of the forgery will go up. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to educate or police I just think we need to make it less profitable.
 

http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-chargers-in-lab-apple-is.html

[IanB]

Can we discuss the technical aspects of this?  Sure 240 V is dangerous, but it rarely kills people.  The reason being that there's not usually a low-impedance path to ground.
So what's the deal with that laptop?  Why was it designed as a PELV system?  EMI?  Most laptops are SELV (two-prong power cords), but I do have an older HP laptop that connects GND to PE.

This I don't follow. Every laptop I can remember owning or using (Sony, Samsung, Dell, HP) has had a three prong power cord. I don't think I have ever seen a laptop power brick in the USA with a two pin mains cord. Maybe it varies by country?

[Len]

This I don't follow. Every laptop I can remember owning or using (Sony, Samsung, Dell, HP) has had a three prong power cord. I don't think I have ever seen a laptop power brick in the USA with a two pin mains cord. Maybe it varies by country?

MacBook chargers have 2 prongs, in the US & Canada at least. Unless you attach the mains extension cord, which has a 3-prong plug. See pics here: http://support.apple.com/kb/ht2346
I also have a netbook with a 2-prong mains cord.

[Rick Law]

Can we discuss the technical aspects of this?  Sure 240 V is dangerous, but it rarely kills people.  The reason being that there's not usually a low-impedance path to ground.
So what's the deal with that laptop?  Why was it designed as a PELV system?  EMI?  Most laptops are SELV (two-prong power cords), but I do have an older HP laptop that connects GND to PE.

This I don't follow. Every laptop I can remember owning or using (Sony, Samsung, Dell, HP) has had a three prong power cord. I don't think I have ever seen a laptop power brick in the USA with a two pin mains cord. Maybe it varies by country?

I have managed computer equipment in my past life (in different organizations including fortune 1000 firms in the USA).  I rarely saw 3 prong laptops.  I have seen and used at least 50 perhaps a 100 different laptops from different main line manufacturers (trying or testing prior to deploy), and deployed at least 100-200 different models of laptops from different manufacturers.  I remember only a few gateways, Dell, and IBM laptops with 3 prongs.  Most of the laptops that in my path were Sony, Fujitsu, Toshiba, Hp...  all were two prongs.

At times, I had to find a replacement power bricks urgently for my users.  So those are situations when I looked into the connections/connectors in more detail than just past it along to purchasing the exact part# replacement.  Except for some Dells that I did not look into, I cannot recall a 3 prong laptops with 3 conductor plug into the laptop.   I have a Gateway sitting around with 3 prongs going from the wall to the brick, but merely a two connector wire into the laptop.  So the laptop may not be not earth-grounded anyhow.

So, perhaps there were more 2-prong'ers than you think (or more 3-prong'ers than I thought).

[Kjelt]

All the pro laptops from Dell and HP from the last 10 years have the so called C5/C6 (mickey mouse) connector, three connections incl. PE. My asus laptop has 3 connectors and the metal case is PE. If I connect it to an unearthed mainssocket and hoover my hand a few mm above the metal case I can feel the field so it needs PE.
The problem in this case is that the victim used two portable devices that were both connected to mains but only one was grounded to PE. If the phone was grounded there would have been no lethal problem. If the phone was totally from plastick instead of metal there would also have been no big problem.
The chances that this particular event happens is very very small. Manufacturers can just say in their manual that the device should not be used while charging and their ass is also covered. What's next? Somebody who dies because she is using a hairdryer in the shower?

[G7PSK]

It seems to me to be a moot point arguing about having usb chargers made in Australia or any other country than China as the woman electrocuted recently came from the Philippines and most likely brought the items in question with her, so however tight import controls are in a country people will bring equipment in as personal luggage from outside the control area.   

[VK3DRB]

It seems to me to be a moot point arguing about having usb chargers made in Australia or any other country than China as the woman electrocuted recently came from the Philippines and most likely brought the items in question with her, so however tight import controls are in a country people will bring equipment in as personal luggage from outside the control area.   

She bought it in NSW.

It is evident the NSW government lied to the public about the prevalence of dodgy USB chargers or were simply asleep at the wheel. The federal government on the other hand should be investigated for contributing to the death of the woman. Raiding shops and markets AFTER the woman was electrocuted is a bit bloody late.

[Jeroen3]

Governments won't do anything until one of the following situations occur.
- There is immediate proven health hazard.
- There is immediate danger to the government or its finance salary.
- There are voting coming up in the next 3 months.

[Kjelt]

Governments won't do anything until one of the following situations occur.
- There are voting coming up in the next 3 months.

Then they will make a lot of cheap promises but still do nothing 

Let's face it, checking each and every item that comes into the country would make the taxes rise a factor of two/three and the profit would be nill.
Best case no drugs enter the country anymore.

[zapta]

Governments won't do anything until one of the following situations occur.
- There is immediate proven health hazard.
- There is immediate danger to the government or its finance salary.
- There are voting coming up in the next 3 months.

Is electrocution from non compliant electronic and appliances such a big problem in Australia?



Image is from here  http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/annual-loss-recorded-a-year-in-the-life-of-death-20121228-2bz8u.html

[GeoffS]

Report into electrocution deaths by the NCIS (not that NCIS, National Coronial Information Service )

http://www.ncis.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/NCIS-FACT-SHEET-Electrocution-related-deaths-final.pdf

[zapta]

Report into electrocution deaths by the NCIS (not that NCIS, National Coronial Information Service )

http://www.ncis.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/NCIS-FACT-SHEET-Electrocution-related-deaths-final.pdf

Let's see,   "Whilst an average of 20 people died each year nationally due to unintentional electrocution", intersect this with "electrical appliances (16.6%) " which gives ~3.3 deathes / year.  Then you need to select the subset of case due to non compliant appliances.  That's less than the 4 deaths/year caused by leprosy

No surprised it's not a high priority item.

Personally I stopped using no name chargers after watching eevblog #388.

[AlfBaz]

Let's see,   "Whilst an average of 20 people died each year nationally due to unintentional electrocution", intersect this with "electrical appliances (16.6%) " which gives ~3.3 deathes / year.  Then you need to select the subset of case due to non compliant appliances.  That's less than the 4 deaths/year caused by leprosy

No surprised it's not a high priority item.

I think you are missing the point.
The days of factoring in deaths into commercial/industrial ventures have long past as is evident with the plethora of safety legislation seen world wide.
Allowing companies to gain market share by knowingly taking risks that endanger the end-users well being is abhorrent even to the most right wing pundit

[zapta]

I think you are missing the point.
The days of factoring in deaths into commercial/industrial ventures have long past as is evident with the plethora of safety legislation seen world wide.
Allowing companies to gain market share by knowingly taking risks that endanger the end-users well being is abhorrent even to the most right wing pundit

That's a very naive thinking, even to a most left wing pundit.  ;-)

We can make everything safer by investing more money into it.  It's just a matter of cost vs. benefit and wise usage of limited resources. 

Do you think that your car is the safest money can buy?  What's about your health coverage or local law enforcement?  Of course not. And if you want your government to shift resources to enforce USB charger quality it will be at the expense of another goal.

Utopia is prohibitively expensive.

[Someone]

At times, I had to find a replacement power bricks urgently for my users.  So those are situations when I looked into the connections/connectors in more detail than just past it along to purchasing the exact part# replacement.  Except for some Dells that I did not look into, I cannot recall a 3 prong laptops with 3 conductor plug into the laptop.   I have a Gateway sitting around with 3 prongs going from the wall to the brick, but merely a two connector wire into the laptop.  So the laptop may not be not earth-grounded anyhow.

So, perhaps there were more 2-prong'ers than you think (or more 3-prong'ers than I thought).

I don't have a copy of the Australian standards to hand but there were some obscure rules around when you could/couldnt use 2 and 3 pin plugs. Where a 3 pin plug was provided it was almost always protectively bonded to one side of the DC power output.

Checking an Apple magsafe adaptor it has an unusual socket that can accept either a 2 pin or 3 pin power plug, but the earth connection appears to be a functional earth as it has a 1.00K ohm impedance to accessible metal parts. This will need some investigation once I pull out a copy of the Australian standards as I've never seen anything like it before. It also does not show anywhere on the enclosure a double insulated symbol or text.

[Rick Law]

Let's see,   "Whilst an average of 20 people died each year nationally due to unintentional electrocution", intersect this with "electrical appliances (16.6%) " which gives ~3.3 deathes / year.  Then you need to select the subset of case due to non compliant appliances.  That's less than the 4 deaths/year caused by leprosy

No surprised it's not a high priority item.

I think you are missing the point.
The days of factoring in deaths into commercial/industrial ventures have long past as is evident with the plethora of safety legislation seen world wide.
Allowing companies to gain market share by knowingly taking risks that endanger the end-users well being is abhorrent even to the most right wing pundit

I thought leave nature alone and let it do things its way would be a "left wing pundit" stuff...  Let natural selection do its work...

Seriously, I have heard of more swimming/surfing deaths than electrocution every year charger or no charger.  Government action (money) can be spend elsewhere with far greater impact than worrying about charger related deaths. 

[vk6zgo]

I think you are missing the point.
The days of factoring in deaths into commercial/industrial ventures have long past as is evident with the plethora of safety legislation seen world wide.
Allowing companies to gain market share by knowingly taking risks that endanger the end-users well being is abhorrent even to the most right wing pundit

That's a very naive thinking, even to a most left wing pundit.  ;-)

We can make everything safer by investing more money into it.  It's just a matter of cost vs. benefit and wise usage of limited resources. 

Do you think that your car is the safest money can buy?  What's about your health coverage or local law enforcement?  Of course not. And if you want your government to shift resources to enforce USB charger quality it will be at the expense of another goal.

Utopia is prohibitively expensive.

Left wing my butt!---successive conservative governments in most countries for many years had strict controls over Electrical Safety issues,up to preventing import of devices ruled unsafe.

Since the 1980s,import controls have progressively been rolled back,in the name of "Free Trade",to the point where any restriction on the entry of such crap is regarded as a "Non-Tariff Barrier to Trade".
In my country,this happened under both "Left wing" & "Right wing" governments.

Free Trade -v- Protectionism is a much older political divide than "Right & Left".
The Free Traders are currently in ascendence,but have thrown the safety "baby " out with the bathwater!

[Someone]

At times, I had to find a replacement power bricks urgently for my users.  So those are situations when I looked into the connections/connectors in more detail than just past it along to purchasing the exact part# replacement.  Except for some Dells that I did not look into, I cannot recall a 3 prong laptops with 3 conductor plug into the laptop.   I have a Gateway sitting around with 3 prongs going from the wall to the brick, but merely a two connector wire into the laptop.  So the laptop may not be not earth-grounded anyhow.

So, perhaps there were more 2-prong'ers than you think (or more 3-prong'ers than I thought).

I don't have a copy of the Australian standards to hand but there were some obscure rules around when you could/couldnt use 2 and 3 pin plugs. Where a 3 pin plug was provided it was almost always protectively bonded to one side of the DC power output.

Checking an Apple magsafe adaptor it has an unusual socket that can accept either a 2 pin or 3 pin power plug, but the earth connection appears to be a functional earth as it has a 1.00K ohm impedance to accessible metal parts. This will need some investigation once I pull out a copy of the Australian standards as I've never seen anything like it before. It also does not show anywhere on the enclosure a double insulated symbol or text.

Ok, I pulled up a copy of AS3100 and found the clauses in 4.4.1:
A flexible cord shall

incorporate an earthing conductor where the equipment has earthing facilities; and not incorporate an earthing conductor where the equipment is of the double-insulated type.

Not sure how the 2 pin fitted socket is passed through the regulations but to be fair it is not a flexible cord covered under the above.

But my main reason to fail it would be clause 7.5:

All Class II equipment, other than accessories, shall be identified by means of the international symbol for double-insulated equipment, [box image] , or the words 'DOUBLE INSULATED'

For those of you not familiar with the unusual Australian variant:


Where as the UK version looks to have grounded plugs for both variants.

[amyk]

That is odd... is there a way it can be both class I and class II? Or maybe it is class I because it technically does have an earthing terminal, and the adapter is allowed under something else.

Note that there are (fake?) ones that are true class II:

[AlfBaz]

I pulled up a copy of AS3100 and found the clauses in 4.4.1:
A flexible cord shall

incorporate an earthing conductor where the equipment has earthing facilities; and not incorporate an earthing conductor where the equipment is of the double-insulated type.

Not sure how the 2 pin fitted socket is passed through the regulations but to be fair it is not a flexible cord covered under the above.

Could it also be the cable itself is a 2 core thereby not "incorporating an earthing conductor"? Whilst the earth pin is conductive it may well not be considered a "conductor"

[janoc]

It seems that there was another case in the UK:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-28097988

Do UK buses have mains outlets? The ones I rode didn't, but that was years ago ...

J.

[daveshah]

It seems that there was another case in the UK:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-28097988

It was probably a portable charger with a built-in battery. That would explain the going up in flames (cheap lipolys)

[rob77]

It seems that there was another case in the UK:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-28097988

Do UK buses have mains outlets? The ones I rode didn't, but that was years ago ...

J.

after reading the article ... it sounds more like a lithium fire (white flash with 50cm long flame..) - probably one of those portable chargers.

[zapta]

Yes because getting fried whilst laying in bed listening to music so some fraudulent prick can make a quick buck is fucking hilarious!

The saving is to the millions of g
shoppers that that chose to buy a cheap charger and didn't get fried.

Utopia is too expensive.

[janoc]

after reading the article ... it sounds more like a lithium fire (white flash with 50cm long flame..) - probably one of those portable chargers.

Yeah, that would make sense. Unfortunately it doesn't help when the journos don't make a difference - there is another article on dangerous chargers that obviously means mains plugpacks right next to it.

J.

[Someone]

That is odd... is there a way it can be both class I and class II? Or maybe it is class I because it technically does have an earthing terminal, and the adapter is allowed under something else.

Note that there are (fake?) ones that are true class II:

The authentic Apple magsafe charger is a class II device for sure, the earthing connector does not have protective bonding to the exposed metal (just the mysterious 1.00K resistance).