Warning over USB chargers after woman dies from apparent electrocution

[at2marty]

Nope
The question isnt that she died... It's how she died. So lets speculate.
a 240V shock was delivered - How?

The internals of the Wall Wart broke? Then what?
I'd have to say that the isolation properties of the transformer were compromised or that there was a direct short.

Neither can be true unless we go with the idea that the manufacturer was incompetant and I don't believe that. The chinese have a "no excuses" policy so I doubt that one would risk the bullet for zero gain. 

Roitpack thinks that its a spark... leaping from one low impedence source to another?  Really?
Tell me how you might generate such a spark and then say "it's the fault of the manufacturer"
I have been a manufacturer in NZ for decades and I'm aware that bad things happen... However, never, in my experience, did so many lightening bolts arranged by the manufacturer occur in so few products, used by so many kill so few.

Here is how it works.
First we have to open circuit the transformer primary, then the broken wire (live side) has to accidently touch the secondary output. (impossible because of wire lengths... they are on two different sides, just as in the schematic) Then, because there is just an air gap we need to bridge it with a giant killer spark.  ... Thanks Riotpack for the insight... tell me again... This time in detail!

Nope too stupid... too stupid... too stupid

I want to see the actual device and hear a real breakdown way before I go with the lies of the establishment.. and so should you all

Suffer not the hoaxes

Perhaps you should look at what has been documented and presented before you start claiming "hoax".

[lapm]

In Finland we had nice electrical safety regulations before we joined European Union.. All electrical stuff required mandatory pre-tests to prove they full filled all local safety regulations. And this was before they get license to be sold even to professionals..

Then came EU and now markets are filled with stuff too dangerous even to be dumped in landfill.. Officials do random checks now and then and sometimes they even find something faulty... Not christmas goes by that there is drawback of some faulty christmas lights...

[AndyC_772]

It sounds as though what you had was onerous safety regulations, which would have prevented a lot of perfectly legitimate, safe equipment from being sold in your country because of the paperwork involved.

If there's a problem now, it's that the same officials who previously monitored and enforced your country's specific, local regulations are not NOT enforcing the EU-wide ones.

Say what you like about the EU as an institution, but having a common set of technical and labelling standards, rather than every individual country insisting on its own testing and registration, can surely only be a good thing?

[Tinkerer]

It sounds as though what you had was onerous safety regulations, which would have prevented a lot of perfectly legitimate, safe equipment from being sold in your country because of the paperwork involved.

If there's a problem now, it's that the same officials who previously monitored and enforced your country's specific, local regulations are not NOT enforcing the EU-wide ones.

Say what you like about the EU as an institution, but having a common set of technical and labelling standards, rather than every individual country insisting on its own testing and registration, can surely only be a good thing?

Yea, I think he was saying that the previous regulations were more stringent. Perhaps you are correct that paper work prevented things from being sold, but there is no way you could get that from his post. Mandatory testing doesnt necissarily mean mountains of paper work even if paperwork could have been increased a little.

A widely used uniform standard is better than many different ones, except when they arnt adequate or in many cases overbearing.

[AndyC_772]

I don't think anyone's suggested that the technical standards themselves that apply for CE marking are too lenient. In my experience they're far from it; a product designed to comply with them would typically need to have several, very specific and incredibly unfortunate faults in order to actually present a hazard.

Moreover, the evidence that they work is all around us; millions of pieces of mains powered equipment are sold every year, which must include thousands of sales to people who are extremely unlucky and/or extremely stupid, and yet it's still newsworthy when something actually does blow up or hurt someone.

Think about it quantitatively for a moment... that means electronic equipment is, in general, incredibly safe.

The issue at hand seems to be that equipment is on sale which simply doesn't comply with the regulations, and which is less safe than it should be as a result.

I would argue that, in that case, making the regulations more stringent - either in terms of the technical requirements themselves or the testing and paperwork regime that goes with them - is a waste of time, and likely to be counterproductive.

IMHO it's pointless to increase costs and overheads for legitimate manufacturers of safe equipment when people selling cheap crap will just carry on doing so anyway. Price the honest sellers out of the market, and what's left...?

[Tinkerer]

I don't think anyone's suggested that the technical standards themselves that apply for CE marking are too lenient. In my experience they're far from it; a product designed to comply with them would typically need to have several, very specific and incredibly unfortunate faults in order to actually present a hazard.

Moreover, the evidence that they work is all around us; millions of pieces of mains powered equipment are sold every year, which must include thousands of sales to people who are extremely unlucky and/or extremely stupid, and yet it's still newsworthy when something actually does blow up or hurt someone.

Think about it quantitatively for a moment... that means electronic equipment is, in general, incredibly safe.

The issue at hand seems to be that equipment is on sale which simply doesn't comply with the regulations, and which is less safe than it should be as a result.

I would argue that, in that case, making the regulations more stringent - either in terms of the technical requirements themselves or the testing and paperwork regime that goes with them - is a waste of time, and likely to be counterproductive.

IMHO it's pointless to increase costs and overheads for legitimate manufacturers of safe equipment when people selling cheap crap will just carry on doing so anyway. Price the honest sellers out of the market, and what's left...?

Well I think you are stepping forward a bit more than needed. Yes, I will agree that that overbearing regulations are a bad thing, but you assume that regulations will go straight to that.

Who am I kidding, I dont know why I am 'argueing' this beyond jumps in logic being made. I think that no regulation is better than bad regulation. However, I think a basic layer is needed that more or less says dont lie about your stuff if nothing else than for accountability when someone is found lieing at some point.

[N TYPE]

Exactly how could a woman (or anyone) die from a 5v shock? Anyone?

Yeah, she had the cable in her mouth? Right?
The cable just happens to include the the 0V line so, as normal the current passes negative to positive (non-conventional flow) through her low impedence spit. Yup it will hurt but it won't (can't) kill.

Any other scenario is suicide... End of

Yet another fear-mongering BS hoax...

[What_NZ]

This tread is getting a bit silly.

Amateur speculation and conspiracy theory at its best.

No one with any forensic qualifications, has released any information as to exactly what happened and how it happened.

Wait until the real information is released, instead of speculating on the media's drivel. As Mark Twain was reputed to say "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.”

[VK3DRB]

I take it you've never seen the insides of these chargers?

Dave's teardown of two fake iPod chargers:

When you've got mains voltage tracks around 1mm from the low voltage tracks, you're asking for trouble.

Dave's video is shocking. The dangerous fake chargers is what happens when peasants pretend they are engineers or businessmen. They should be treated the same as terrorists.

[What_NZ]

I take it you've never seen the insides of these chargers?

Dave's teardown of two fake iPod chargers:

When you've got mains voltage tracks around 1mm from the low voltage tracks, you're asking for trouble.

Dave's video is shocking. The dangerous fake chargers is what happens when peasants pretend they are engineers or businessmen. They should be treated the same as terrorists.

How about toning down the Chinese (China) directed slurs. It is neither helpful nor friendly and some may find it down right offensive!

[VK3DRB]

I take it you've never seen the insides of these chargers?

Dave's teardown of two fake iPod chargers:

When you've got mains voltage tracks around 1mm from the low voltage tracks, you're asking for trouble.

Dave's video is shocking. The dangerous fake chargers is what happens when peasants pretend they are engineers or businessmen. They should be treated the same as terrorists.

How about toning down the Chinese (China) directed slurs. It is neither helpful nor friendly and some may find it down right offensive!

You are either too sensitive, or read into it wrongly. I have nothing against Chinese, but everything against those who put innocent lives at risk to make a quick buck. Peasantry implies lack of education, hence the remark. They are no different to drug dealers. I don't care if dodgy manufacturers or importers are offended.

[VK3DRB]

A quick search on eBay for USB chargers indicate you can buy non-compliant chargers (no shielded mains pins) from Australian importers or resellers. The government is clearly asleep at the wheel. If all Australian after-market USB chargers were made in Australia rather than China, that woman might still be alive today. What price is a life? Not much it seems. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, the government does to address the issue.

[What_NZ]

I take it you've never seen the insides of these chargers?

Dave's teardown of two fake iPod chargers:

When you've got mains voltage tracks around 1mm from the low voltage tracks, you're asking for trouble.

Dave's video is shocking. The dangerous fake chargers is what happens when peasants pretend they are engineers or businessmen. They should be treated the same as terrorists.

How about toning down the Chinese (China) directed slurs. It is neither helpful nor friendly and some may find it down right offensive!

You are either too sensitive, or read into it wrongly. I have nothing against Chinese, but everything against those who put innocent lives at risk to make a quick buck. Peasantry implies lack of education, hence the remark. They are no different to drug dealers. I don't care if dodgy manufacturers or importers are offended.

You have nothing against Chinese (China) really? seems to be a theme of yours......

<Quote> rubbish from communist China
<Quote> so-called People's Republic of China
<Quote> greedy communist Chinese business owners and their corrupt government officials
<Quote> and communist China was shut down
<Quote>  their communist comrades

I call BS on your excuse for the use of the word "peasants" in your sentence "The dangerous fake chargers is what happens when peasants pretend they are engineers or businessmen." there is no doubting what you meant. If you meant uneducated then why not just say "the uneducated"

peasant
noun    (Concise Encyclopedia)

Any member of a class that tills the soil as small landowners or agricultural labourers. The peasant economy generally has a simple technology and a division of labour by age and sex. The basic unit of production is the family or household. Peasant families traditionally consume what they produce, though a portion of their output may be sold in the market or paid to a landlord. Productivity per worker and yields per unit of land are usually low. Peasants as a class tend to disappear as a society industrializes, though peasantlike social structures may persist under new economic regimens. See also ejido; feudalism; hacienda; serfdom.

[VK3DRB]

OK, maybe peasant was politically incorrect, and I apologise is anyone was offended.

[What_NZ]

No problems, happy to move on to the real exciting stuff - electronics of course 

[amyk]

If all Australian after-market USB chargers were made in Australia rather than China, that woman might still be alive today.

Or she might've died in a car crash, drowning, heart attack, or any number of other causes that are orders of magnitude more common... not to say that safety is important, but I think the relative risk here has been blown way out of proportion.

[tjaeger]

http://images.smh.com.au/2014/06/27/5550670/mobilegraphic-300x0.jpg

Can we discuss the technical aspects of this?  Sure 240 V is dangerous, but it rarely kills people.  The reason being that there's not usually a low-impedance path to ground.
So what's the deal with that laptop?  Why was it designed as a PELV system?  EMI?  Most laptops are SELV (two-prong power cords), but I do have an older HP laptop that connects GND to PE.
Next what if there had been a GFCI?  Would it have switched fast enough to save her?  Are GFCIs mandated in Australia (for new installations)?
The earphones are weird, too.  Why would they have metal parts on the outside that are connected to the circuit?  Not saying that's particularly dangerous (although it was in this case), but it just seems strange.

[SeanB]

Metal case ear buds will typically not have a direct connection, but the only insulation is the oxide on the aluminium, along with the wire insulation. This can break down at a low voltage, and will not be regarded as insulators above 50V. You do get aluminium with a thick grown oxide layer that is used for high thermal performance insulating washers, but these typically have the oxide layer grown in a high pressure steam process. Regular mill finish may break down at any voltage over 1V depending on the oxide and the contaminants in it.

[FrankenPC]

I've got a solution.  Any company who wants to sell mains attached equipment needs to supply a 1 million dollar bond (USD) against the equipment that they sell.   Let the insurance companies sort it out.  They are legendary at being penny pinchers.

[AndyC_772]

That's pretty much what UL does. When they certify that a product is safe, they underwrite it.

Of course, the cost of testing, auditing and factory inspections has to be borne by the customer, but if you want a product that has this level of QA and insurance behind it, buy one with a UL mark.

[pickle9000]

That's pretty much what UL does. When they certify that a product is safe, they underwrite it.

Of course, the cost of testing, auditing and factory inspections has to be borne by the customer, but if you want a product that has this level of QA and insurance behind it, buy one with a UL mark.

When it comes to counterfeits anything is game (including the UL mark). It's an illegal activity and cost is paramount, everything else is in the can. OEM's need to produce accessories like chargers at a price low enough to make counterfeits unprofitable. Fines, criminal charges and so on are great when you can catch the criminal, but how much of a dent do they really make?



 

[AndyC_772]

Yes, but if you care, you can look up the UL listing for a product on their web site.

[zapta]

I've got a solution.  Any company who wants to sell mains attached equipment needs to supply a 1 million dollar bond (USD) against the equipment that they sell.   Let the insurance companies sort it out.  They are legendary at being penny pinchers.

More government restrictions. That's what we need to achieve utopia. 

Then we need another 1 million dollar bond as a guarantee that the vendor indeed has a valid first 1 million bond.   ;-)

[pickle9000]

Yes, but if you care, you can look up the UL listing for a product on their web site.

Here is guy some images of usb chargers. The Apple charger seems to be a pretty nice forgery. Even if you plugged in the UL number chances are you'd be satisfied, at least early on. Even so how many consumers know what to look for. I know, but that's not a fair comparison to Joe Public. Even if the public did know what to look for, assuming the profit is the the quality of the forgery will go up. I'm not saying we shouldn't try to educate or police I just think we need to make it less profitable.
 

http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-chargers-in-lab-apple-is.html

[IanB]

Can we discuss the technical aspects of this?  Sure 240 V is dangerous, but it rarely kills people.  The reason being that there's not usually a low-impedance path to ground.
So what's the deal with that laptop?  Why was it designed as a PELV system?  EMI?  Most laptops are SELV (two-prong power cords), but I do have an older HP laptop that connects GND to PE.

This I don't follow. Every laptop I can remember owning or using (Sony, Samsung, Dell, HP) has had a three prong power cord. I don't think I have ever seen a laptop power brick in the USA with a two pin mains cord. Maybe it varies by country?