Watt the fμck?

[paulca]

Oh and saving a few W will save your life and the planet. Yeah, really.

Says the man in France with the cheapest electric in the western world or certainly Europe.

[Electroplated]

Oh and saving a few W will save your life and the planet. Yeah, really.

Says the man in France with the cheapest electric in the western world or certainly Europe.

He's rich I tells ya, rich ! Cheap Electricity and affordable cheese, hes living a life of luxury we can only dream about.

[paulca]

When you turn off all your little 'heaters', does your heating bill go up? Or for those in warmer climates, does your a/c bill go down?

I've considered this.  I've spent a few hours staring off into space trying to work out how to graph that and see where (if) they cross.  I decided it would be difficult, especially without a gas flow meter.

What I have definitely noticed is the heating started coming on 3 or 4 times a day for 15 minute bursts in the office. Losing that extra 100W of constant heat did get noticed.

However, electric heating is off to a bad start due to it being anywhere from 30-45% efficient and the 45% is dubious as I believe it need to be power from and via all the latest grid tech for someone living right beside the plant.

Also, they still ARE spreading propaganda encouraging using more power.  Over night cheap tariffs still exist.  That is  90% commercially driven an maybe 10% engineering practicalities on stop/starting the plants instead.

Then there are the renewable tariff scams.  Next time you are on the phone to your "green tariff" providing utilitiy.  Ask them for proof of generations certificates for all the power you consumed and for all the green power they sold.  They won't have them.  The industry is so loosely regulated they just say they lost them down the back of a filing cabinet.  They are traded, IOUd, borrowed, offset, debted, written off etc. etc.

The second things on those of course is that we don't generate any excess power, so switch YOUR meter to a green tariff, just means there is less green energy for eveyrone else, so they will just use dirty power.  It saves nothing.  The same amount of green and dirty power will get generated, the same amount of CO2 gets released, its just that you are mug enough to pay more for it.  Maybe the world is actually a nice place with fair people and that extra money goes to developing more renewables, but I fear that's dream world and it most likely ends up in an Exec staff bonus.

[paulca]

The things I'm looking at now are the network infra stuffs.  I upgraded my house network to be fully VLAN switched to keep nosey work laptops out of the LAN etc.

Thing is there are 3 Wifi APs and 4 switches.  I know the 2 main routers use about 15W each and the switches use 10W each.  Well, at least 2 of them now power off.  I could technically do without one of the APs as I don't really have much wireless use for 5Ghz upstairs.

[Electroplated]

Oh and saving a few W will save your life and the planet. Yeah, really.

All those watts add up, the money saved could be enough to cover the cost of boiling a pan of water in winter, so giving poor old aunt Ethel a much needed cup of hot oxo and therefor saving her from hypermedia and death.

Anyway, I cant stop here chatting, have to break up next doors furniture so we can have a hot meal tonight.

[Kjelt]

I had this moment when I measured one of my over 30 Hue lights.
In off they still use 10-25mA @230V = 2 to 3W  each.
So I shut them off hard with the wall switch.

Nice all the home automation but if each "smart" device has to be listening over "radio" be it BT, or zigbee or wifi or have an active ethernet stack running they aren't that smart anymore to use.
My electricity price has gone up from €0,22/kWh in july 2021 to €0,81/kWh for coming month.
For gas and electricity I have to pay €5000 more per year, which hurts.

The problem I like to solve is how to switch off dozens of devices (like networkswitches, APs, etc.) off at night without using a clockswitch which also consumes electricity per device.
If someone has an elegant ultra low power solution preferably with a latching relay I would be very interested. Otherwise I have to build it my own.

[themadhippy]

The problem I like to solve is how to switch off dozens of devices (like networkswitches, APs, etc.) off at night without using a clockswitch which also consumes electricity per device.

clockwork timeclock?

[paulca]

Nice all the home automation but if each "smart" device has to be listening over "radio" be it BT, or zigbee or wifi or have an active ethernet stack running they aren't that smart anymore to use.

I think you need to revisit the low power device market.  Most Zigbee devices run on battery.  My hallway motion sensors are well over a year on the coin cell they came with.  They still show 55% battery.

Gas meters here, the pre-pay card type run 24/7/365 for 10 years on a single battery.

So while, yes, there are lazy people who use cheap dropper power supplies and use a few watts.   But still, all of them house wide (mains powered smart devices) adds up to less than 30W.

The advances in MCU low power mode in the last 10 years has been amazing.  Most zigbee MCUs have a deep sleep power requirement of micro-amps.  Their radio sleep power draw is also in micro-amps.  When they need to wake up and send data, they can do that in a millisecond at 30mA and go back to sleep at 2uA for 55 seconds.

If you are mains powering things you can be a lot more lazy.  When I made my sensors I didn't even put the MCU to sleep and left the Wifi radio on constantly.  They still only consumed 40mA at 5V.

[GlennSprigg]

My father in-law, many years ago, (who I found out had figure-8 speaker wire strung between trees to get 240v power
out to his pigeon sheds from the house!), told me that you have to save power by turning off ALL appliances at the power-
point to save wastage. Even a Lamp or Toaster etc...  I couldn't make him understand, so I gave up!  Yes, as a technician, I
could have mentioned the likes of a 'Corona Discharge' to the atmosphere!!!, but I think that the concern for the likes of an
increase in your bill of say 1c or 2c over a 10 year period for the whole house, was not worth debating!!!   
(And yes... I re-wired his sheds!, with the correct wiring/catenarie's  )

[snarkysparky]

I have a different point of view on it.
Forget about all the tiny consuming devices.   If you include them in your thinking then you are distracted from where the real problems are.

Hot water heater !!!!
Put an insulating blanket on your electric hot water heater.
When you shower turn the flow rate of water down to a trickle. Don't  reduce water temp ( that just miserable )  but the flow rate.  At full on most of the hot water misses the body anyway.


Refrigerator !!
Other than making sure the seals are good and air flow is good around the unit not much you can do.

Run the heat pump mainly when outside temp is favorable.  In summer that is at night.   In winter that is when the sun is on it.

Favor microwave instead of oven of possible  ( unless you heat with electric resistance heat ).

More ideas ??

[paulca]

Yeah,  I now have an issue with my freezer.  I think I overloaded it or a bit of packaging got stuck in the door seal.  Unfortunately it might not be fixable without defrosting it.  It seems to have collected a lot of ice via damp air and freshly inserted food adding moisture.

The freezer is running 50% of the time. It's about 220W with around 100W reactive going back out.

I've tried to clear out some ice and I've powered it down for an hour which sometimes causes it to switch it's defrost heater on when you repower it.   All that ice is having insulative properties and fighting the freezers attempt to cool more.

I don't want to lose the food in it though and I don't have anywhere that will keep stuff frozen for the hour it will take.

[themadhippy]

When you shower turn the flow rate of water down to a trickle. Don't  reduce water temp

In the uk it wont make much difference as we tend to use instantaneous electric showers with a fixed wattage heating element.

I don't want to lose the food in it though and I don't have anywhere that will keep stuff frozen for the hour it will take.

wouldn't worry to much about it,bet from plonking it in your trolley at the supermarket to chucking it in the freezer at home is nearly an hour

[woody]

The problem I like to solve is how to switch off dozens of devices (like networkswitches, APs, etc.) off at night without using a clockswitch which also consumes electricity per device.

If someone has an elegant ultra low power solution preferably with a latching relay I would be very interested. Otherwise I have to build it my own.

POE switch(es). Usually you can set a power schedule into them and power off / on connected AP's, camera's, POE powered switches and other equipment that is POE powered (RPI). Not a magic bullet, but it does help save a few watts.

I remember years ago looking at Enocean devices. They are wireless, self-powered sensors and actuators. Never got beyond looking so I am not sure what the status is, but they fill your requirement of needing no external power.

And at this point I was going to make a closing remark that according to Domoticz our baseload, when everyone is asleep and everthing is off, is ~400W and that I did not care as that is the price you pay for all the stuff that makes modern living possible. Until I realized that 400W translates in 10kWh/day. Or, in current current prices, €9,- per day. Or €270,- per month. WTF indeed! The only thing between me and real problems is the 5 year energy contract I entered in May 2020. I am definitely going to hunt for power savings now, this is not future proof!

[paulca]

Well, unfortunately I was wrong about the power usage.  With the freezer powered off, the square wave was still there.

I knew "it can't be the 50W fish tank heater"  because the square wave has an amplitude of over 100W, well over.

Just to be sure I went and unplugged the fishtank heater.  Square wave is gone.

This is now much more disturbing as it most likely means the 50W heater is broken is a rather bizarre way, as it's not tripping the electric, so it's not leaking to earth (unlikely on a 2 pin plug I suppose), I wonder if it's seals failed and it filled with water would it's load increase with partial conductivity through the water?  It shouldn't be drawing over 100W and it shouldn't be generating ANY reactive power.  I'm baffled.

EDIT:  Sorry, blonde moment, I was reading the power factor graph wrong.  When the fish tank heater comes on the power factor rises.  Which makes sense as it's a 100 perfect resistive load.  Just need to work out why it's consuming 2 to 3 times its power rating.

[paulca]

And at this point I was going to make a closing remark that according to Domoticz our baseload, when everyone is asleep and everthing is off, is ~400W and that I did not care as that is the price you pay for all the stuff that makes modern living possible. Until I realized that 400W translates in 10kWh/day. Or, in current current prices, €9,- per day. Or €270,- per month. WTF indeed! The only thing between me and real problems is the 5 year energy contract I entered in May 2020. I am definitely going to hunt for power savings now, this is not future proof!

400W, ouch.

Mine has come down to about 97W now, ruined by the fish heater.  Any want a fish tank - sorry - humidity generator?

[Neper]

We've just bought and returned a Green Cell UPS that constantly draws a whopping 35 watts when it's just switched on without anything connected at the output side. Where all the energy goes? It gets warm. So much that our cats don't want to sit on top of it. And, yes, I had waited a whole day to make sure the built-in batteries were fully charged.

At our current electricity rate that would be 140 euros per year.

No mention of the standby power consumption in the published data. Now we know why...

[AVGresponding]

We've just bought and returned a Green Cell UPS that constantly draws a whopping 35 watts when it's just switched on without anything connected at the output side. Where all the energy goes? It gets warm. So much that our cats don't want to sit on top of it. And, yes, I had waited a whole day to make sure the built-in batteries were fully charged.

At our current electricity rate that would be 140 euros per year.

No mention of the standby power consumption in the published data. Now we know why...

Not familiar with that brand, but typically a UPS is at its best efficiency when running at 70-80% of its rated load. The advertising blurb implies it's an offline type (only switches the inverter on when the mains fails).

It doesn't mention the Wh rating of the battery, but at £160 for a 2kVA unit with battery installed, I'm guessing it's not much, one of the 12V 40Ah batteries they show on the same page maybe? Assuming the battery is only being overcharged in the usual way, the charger probably isn't using more than 10 of those 35W, leaving 25W to power the control board and display backlight... it seems excessive to me too.

You might have a duff one, with the charger cooking the battery even more enthusiastically than usual. Have you measured the float voltage?

[coppice]

Put an insulating blanket on your electric hot water heater.

Does anyone have a hot water storage tank without insulation? I thought that stopped 50 years ago.

When you shower turn the flow rate of water down to a trickle. Don't  reduce water temp ( that just miserable )  but the flow rate.  At full on most of the hot water misses the body anyway.

If you find you need a high flow rate to get a good shower consider a new shower head. Some distribute the water much better than others. A large number of fine drops is much better than a small number of large ones.

[Electroplated]

EDIT:  Sorry, blonde moment, I was reading the power factor graph wrong.  When the fish tank heater comes on the power factor rises.  Which makes sense as it's a 100 perfect resistive load.  Just need to work out why it's consuming 2 to 3 times its power rating.

I had one of those test tube shaped fish tank heaters years ago, worked for years then while cleaning the tank I noticed the burn marks inside the glass tube, replaced it same day, the old ones element supports had crumbled and allowed the coils to short in a few places, it probably still worked, heating faster than it was supposed to do, I wont mention another one of those that had a faulty seal, back in the days predating rcd's.

[Electroplated]

Put an insulating blanket on your electric hot water heater.

Does anyone have a hot water storage tank without insulation? I thought that stopped 50 years ago.

When you shower turn the flow rate of water down to a trickle. Don't  reduce water temp ( that just miserable )  but the flow rate.  At full on most of the hot water misses the body anyway.

If you find you need a high flow rate to get a good shower consider a new shower head. Some distribute the water much better than others. A large number of fine drops is much better than a small number of large ones.

Came across that a few months back when I replaced a Mira shower bar, the new head looked the same as the older one but despite messing with the heads spray setting, it just pissed out water, we like the fine spray so fitted the old head. I should have paid more attention to the bloody thing, they carry a five year warranty and the old one was leaking from a valve two years in DOH!

Some electric shower units have a safety blow valve, nothing more than a one shot thing that pops if there is back pressure in the hose or head, fit a head that restricts pressure and it could pop the valve so the water pours out from the base of the shower unit.

[Neper]

It doesn't mention the Wh rating of the battery, but at £160 for a 2kVA unit with battery installed, I'm guessing it's not much, one of the 12V 40Ah batteries they show on the same page maybe?

Not even that. Two batteries of 12 V 9 Ah each.

[coppice]

The thing is, as I found, while the bullshit you get in the media on "standby power" is cringeworthy and usually highly inaccurate, the reality of "It all adds up" is a genuine factor.

The problem with standby power is little settings deep in configuration menus can massively affect it. The only way you can figure out the real effect of each setting is using a power meter, which few people have access to. There are warnings in some manuals. For example, our LG TV manual says you can turn the TV on and off by bluetooth wifi or ethernet commands, but enabling this increases power consumption. They don't say how much it increases, but the fact that they provide a warning suggests the effect is pretty bad. I haven't checked the effect on our particular TVs, but in the past I found some standby settings increased a TVs consumption from a couple of watts to about 50W. Even a couple of watts is pretty bad. In 2022 its not hard to engineer a standby power level of a few milliwatts. Even being able to start from a bluetooth, wifi or ethernet command can be done for a small fraction of a watt.

[SiliconWizard]

Oh and saving a few W will save your life and the planet. Yeah, really.

Says the man in France with the cheapest electric in the western world or certainly Europe.

Uh yeah. Sure. Prices are inflating a lot over here as well though. And...

On a more serious tone though, one thing that defies logic is that from what I know, the UK is almost self-sufficient energy-wise - at least for electricity and gas. They do not get any gas from Russia AFAIK, whatsoever. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

So how come prices are skyrocketing there? The UK is not even part of the EU anymore, so it's not a matter of decisions from the EC either. What is it? I'm curious and not the only one wondering, so if some enlightened people can explain this to us.

The OP's title looks quite right.

[themadhippy]

So how come prices are skyrocketing there?

open markets,the energy makers flog it on the word markets and the suppliers buy it from the world markets.

[james_s]

I have a different point of view on it.
Forget about all the tiny consuming devices.   If you include them in your thinking then you are distracted from where the real problems are.

Hot water heater !!!!
Put an insulating blanket on your electric hot water heater.
When you shower turn the flow rate of water down to a trickle. Don't  reduce water temp ( that just miserable )  but the flow rate.  At full on most of the hot water misses the body anyway.


Refrigerator !!
Other than making sure the seals are good and air flow is good around the unit not much you can do.

Run the heat pump mainly when outside temp is favorable.  In summer that is at night.   In winter that is when the sun is on it.

Favor microwave instead of oven of possible  ( unless you heat with electric resistance heat ).

More ideas ??

I have a gas hot water heater so that doesn't affect my electric usage and costs relatively little to run anyway. My refrigerator is a relatively steady draw with a roughly 50% duty cycle that doesn't seem to change much. All the little stuff adds up quickly though, 5W here, 3W there, pretty soon you're talking significant power, my steady state base load is about 250 watts.

I'm only paying a hair over 10c/kWh so I haven't put any great effort into reducing it yet but it does annoy me that there are so many random loads, I had a spreadsheet years ago but I haven't updated that in a long time.