Author Topic: Watt the fμck?  (Read 8703 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2022, 07:58:40 pm »
The problem with standby power is little settings deep in configuration menus can massively affect it. The only way you can figure out the real effect of each setting is using a power meter, which few people have access to.

Anybody has access to a power meter if they want one, those Kill-A-Watt and similar devices are inexpensive and have been available for at least a decade.
 

Offline Electroplated

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2022, 08:07:47 pm »

The problem I like to solve is how to switch off dozens of devices (like networkswitches, APs, etc.) off at night without using a clockswitch which also consumes electricity per device.
If someone has an elegant ultra low power solution preferably with a latching relay I would be very interested. Otherwise I have to build it my own.

I have an external tplink AP that supplies part of the garden with wifi during the day, I set it up so family members can sit outside and work remotely, its under the control of an old battery zero volt heating timer/ thermostat,the relay is rated at 2 amps and batteries last about 12 months, I set the timer to the required time intervals in 24 hour mode, same can be achieved by having the same settings for each day, set the temperature to the lowest it will go so its tricked into working even on warm days, works for me but make sure the device has a static IP otherwise its IP may change on boot.

I wonder if that same idea could be used to control a more capable relay or solid state relay to control a higher load.

Of course I could use a powered timer but I had one of those cause a small fire a long time ago and have never trusted them since, far too many cheap junk ones about with corners cut, no thanks.
50 years working with electronics and I still wonder how small parts can have all that smoke inside !
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2022, 08:20:39 pm »
I have a couple of electronic light timers that use a latching relay and run off a single AAA cell that lasts about a year, somebody must still make those.
 
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Online Kjelt

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2022, 08:43:14 pm »
Quote
author=james_s link=topic=345601.msg4440688#msg4440688 date=1664482839]
I have a couple of electronic light timers that use a latching relay and run off a single AAA cell that lasts about a year, somebody must still make those.
Interesting Brand? Model ?
As some mentioned before if I should build it diy I would indeed look for some ultra low power arm microcontroller running off a single LiIon cell, that now and then would be charged when it switches on its load. But since I have te s of unfinished projects still waiting, it might be wiser to go for this route  :)
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2022, 08:51:42 pm »
They're made by Intermatic as I recall, I'm not actually sure where they are currently, I've since replaced them with Sonoff devices that tie into my automation.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2022, 09:08:53 pm »
The problem with standby power is little settings deep in configuration menus can massively affect it. The only way you can figure out the real effect of each setting is using a power meter, which few people have access to.

Anybody has access to a power meter if they want one, those Kill-A-Watt and similar devices are inexpensive and have been available for at least a decade.
They aren't great for measuring for measuring standby power, as they don't measure well at the one or two watt level. If you are going to get one get an actual kill-a-watt, as most of the clones are pretty awful across the whole power range. Some don't even measure active power - they give a rough apparent power reading. A real kill-a-watt will do well at telling you when you have a really gross standby consumption, like the 50W TV I referred to. I guess it will work fairly well for comparative measurements, too. Its not great, though.
 

Offline AndyBeez

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2022, 09:10:45 pm »
Power scheduling network hardware not only saves money, the planet and the MTBF, but it also keeps hackers from dialing into the network when you're in bed and they are eating their midday bun cha. PoE scheduling is good practice. But don't turn off the CCTV or the IP recorder!

+ I once used a device that powered down my printer and monitor when the computer switched off. It was called an eco-plug. You may have been sent one or similar by your energy supplier. Piece of unreliable junk that received a premature teardown for parts. I think I just kept the LED.

In a domestic setting, there is a ton of stuff that's always on and turning the meter. Not just the phone chargers, fridges, aircon and heating system, but other 'subliminal' stuff like cookers, hobs, ovens, extractor fans and dish washers. Maybe even the solar panel inverter is secretly sipping the off hour watts? There is only so much that can be turned off.

One saving you can make....
« Last Edit: September 29, 2022, 11:51:09 pm by AndyBeez »
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2022, 05:38:42 am »
It doesn't mention the Wh rating of the battery, but at £160 for a 2kVA unit with battery installed, I'm guessing it's not much, one of the 12V 40Ah batteries they show on the same page maybe?

Not even that. Two batteries of 12 V 9 Ah each.

:palm:

9Ah is a non-standard size, I wonder if it's really a 7Ah that they massaged the discharge rate on, to get a more favourable capacity? Either way, at the rated load, you'll get less than 5 minutes of inverter time to do a controlled shutdown (assuming you're protecting a PC). Realistically a PC running at say 200W, you'll get probably thirty minutes or so depending on the low battery voltage shutoff settings. The batteries aren't going to be very happy in any case though.
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Offline timenutgoblin

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2022, 06:40:33 am »
Forget the momentary devices like kettles, coffee machines, etc.

Track the high power items. 

(Why not the obvious kitchen?  Because if you need, you need.  They are momentary, choice items.)

kwh = £0.39p UK as of 1st Oct.

It starts to matter.


If your kettle is rated at 2200W (2.2kW) and is switched on for 90 seconds at a time, 5 times day, then at £0.39p per kWh it will cost you £9 - £10 per quarter-year (90 days or 3 months).

Do you use a laser printer? My laser printer is rated at 4.3A 240V and uses nearly 1000W (1kW) while printing. Fortunately, I rarely use it.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2022, 06:46:03 am »
9Ah is a non-standard size, I wonder if it's really a 7Ah that they massaged the discharge rate on, to get a more favourable capacity? Either way, at the rated load, you'll get less than 5 minutes of inverter time to do a controlled shutdown (assuming you're protecting a PC). Realistically a PC running at say 200W, you'll get probably thirty minutes or so depending on the low battery voltage shutoff settings. The batteries aren't going to be very happy in any case though.[/color][/size][/b]

9Ah is the most common size of SLA battery I've ever encountered, they're the same external dimensions as the 7Ah type. Of course in UPS duty you don't get anywhere near that rating, which is for a far slower discharge.
 

Offline Neper

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2022, 08:27:59 am »
Looks like 9 Ah is the new 7 Ah. Ebay is full of them.
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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2022, 08:54:02 am »
On a more serious tone though, one thing that defies logic is that from what I know, the UK is almost self-sufficient energy-wise - at least for electricity and gas. They do not get any gas from Russia AFAIK, whatsoever. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.
So how come prices are skyrocketing there? The UK is not even part of the EU anymore, so it's not a matter of decisions from the EC either. What is it? I'm curious and not the only one wondering, so if some enlightened people can explain this to us.
The OP's title looks quite right.

I have come across a different view of why the gas price is so high.  It's an international market with international prices.  The reason it's gone nuts partly the Ukraine war.  But not entirely.  The war caused a shock to the price, which started the price bouncing under volatility.  The number of companies trading in the international natural gas market went from 9 when the market was stable to over 200 when it destabilised.  These are option traders and speculators, buying low and selling high.  Their entire goal is to keep that price volatile so they can scrape the profits off of it.

Worst though, the energy companies are whining about the RISK cause by the price bouncing, so they lift their consumer price to protect themselves.  However they also purchase energy futures to offset their risk.  The net is, when the price is down your utility company are making record, bumper profits.  The price is bouncing massively.

It's correct the UK don't import gas, oddly, Ireland is a net exporter of natural gas.

So it does bear a question....  why can't the UK and Ireland take it's gas off the international market and sell it to us for sensible "localised" prices.
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Offline Electroplated

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2022, 09:24:31 am »

It's correct the UK don't import gas, oddly, Ireland is a net exporter of natural gas.

So it does bear a question....  why can't the UK and Ireland take it's gas off the international market and sell it to us for sensible "localised" prices.

Well that will never happen for two reasons:

1) It is a sensible idea
2) The rich wont become richer.
50 years working with electronics and I still wonder how small parts can have all that smoke inside !
 

Online Kjelt

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2022, 11:28:25 am »
So it does bear a question....  why can't the UK and Ireland take it's gas off the international market and sell it to us for sensible "localised" prices.
Netherlands has the same issue, we pump up 20 billion m3 a year and export 17.5m3 for a price twenty to thirty times lower than the current market price.
And the inconvenient truth here is that our government or whoever they assigned the rights to signed very long lasting contract to other eu countries.
Morons, short term profit seekers. The only country I know of who was smart enough to put thecearnings from their gas fields into a mutual fund and now earns billions per month is Norway.
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2022, 01:12:27 pm »
9Ah is a non-standard size, I wonder if it's really a 7Ah that they massaged the discharge rate on, to get a more favourable capacity? Either way, at the rated load, you'll get less than 5 minutes of inverter time to do a controlled shutdown (assuming you're protecting a PC). Realistically a PC running at say 200W, you'll get probably thirty minutes or so depending on the low battery voltage shutoff settings. The batteries aren't going to be very happy in any case though.[/color][/size][/b]

9Ah is the most common size of SLA battery I've ever encountered, they're the same external dimensions as the 7Ah type. Of course in UPS duty you don't get anywhere near that rating, which is for a far slower discharge.



Looks like 9 Ah is the new 7 Ah. Ebay is full of them.



Never seen one here in 30 years in the business. Sounds like it's a 7 that's just been qualified at a different, lower, discharge current. Either that or it's a Chinese "9Ah" like those 900,000mAh power banks and 5000mAh 18650's on ebay.
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Offline paulcaTopic starter

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2022, 01:19:45 pm »
Sure the ideal way to keep a UPS SLA bank topped up is a small 12V solar panel?
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Offline james_s

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2022, 07:27:28 pm »
Never seen one here in 30 years in the business. Sounds like it's a 7 that's just been qualified at a different, lower, discharge current. Either that or it's a Chinese "9Ah" like those 900,000mAh power banks and 5000mAh 18650's on ebay.[/color][/size][/b]


Or technology has improved and they're able to pack a bit more into the same size package?

Power Sonic is a reputable brand, they offer both a 7 and 9Ah battery, Digikey is a reputable seller and carries them, albeit at an inflated price. I have about half a dozen UPSs with that size and they all came with 9Ah batteries in them.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/power-sonic-corporation/PS-1290-F2/13577465
 

Offline Neper

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2022, 08:45:43 pm »
Never seen one here in 30 years in the business. Sounds like it's a 7 that's just been qualified at a different, lower, discharge current.

From what I understand, they use a somewhat different technology named AGM (for Absorbent Glass Mat). No lead gel as before but fibreglass mats soaked with a liquid electrolyte. Might explain the slight difference in capacity.
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Offline mikerj

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2022, 09:15:02 pm »
What about those natty little in home displays you get to tell you how much money you're saving with your smart meter? (according to the sales propoganda)

I presume the power that the smart meter requires is drawn from the unmetered side?  Anyone know typical power draw?  Guessing not huge but when there is millions of the bloody things...
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2022, 09:28:41 pm »
We all hope so. Given that smart gas meters are powered by a big lithium primary cell that we didn't get charged for, it seems likely.
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Offline nali

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2022, 09:31:49 pm »
What about those natty little in home displays you get to tell you how much money you're saving with your smart meter? (according to the sales propoganda)

I presume the power that the smart meter requires is drawn from the unmetered side?  Anyone know typical power draw?  Guessing not huge but when there is millions of the bloody things...

Yes they do. The meter itself doesn't draw much, most of the power goes to the bolt on comms hub which facilitates the Home Area Network. Although the interface spec calls for a maximum power delivery of 6W typical power might be a 100-200mW.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2022, 01:54:09 am »
I presume the power that the smart meter requires is drawn from the unmetered side?  Anyone know typical power draw?  Guessing not huge but when there is millions of the bloody things...
It is a requirement that an electricity meter is powered from the unmetered side. If you think about it, it really has to be. Otherwise the meter would creep when the entire property is turned off, and they would have a customer service nightmare. Meters also don't read the first few milliamps, so they don't creep on noise. The exact number of milliamps varies with the location. Germany estimated that it took a 600MW generating set to power all its Ferraris wheel meters. Electronic meters initially had the selling point of cutting this considerably. Early smart meters took a modest fraction of a watt, However, they have grown in complexity, and I'm not sure how much most of them currently take.
 
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2022, 07:40:59 am »
Never seen one here in 30 years in the business. Sounds like it's a 7 that's just been qualified at a different, lower, discharge current. Either that or it's a Chinese "9Ah" like those 900,000mAh power banks and 5000mAh 18650's on ebay.[/color][/size][/b]


Or technology has improved and they're able to pack a bit more into the same size package?

Power Sonic is a reputable brand, they offer both a 7 and 9Ah battery, Digikey is a reputable seller and carries them, albeit at an inflated price. I have about half a dozen UPSs with that size and they all came with 9Ah batteries in them.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/power-sonic-corporation/PS-1290-F2/13577465

Looking at the datasheet for the product you linked, they have done exactly what I said; used a lower discharge current to exaggerate the capacity. I am familiar with the Power Sonic brand, and consider them to be one of the budget brands, they are in no way a premium brand.

There isn't really the potential for the kind of incremental technological improvement that you suggest; lead-acid batteries have a specific chemistry, and the volume of electrolyte is what determines the capacity. You can only fit so much electrolyte in a given volume. The size of the electrode plates and their shape determines the safe current capability, and in essence, the bigger they are, the more current, but also the less space there is for electrolyte.

Gel type batteries have an additional disadvantage in that the electrolyte isn't free to circulate around the electrode plates, which means that in order to extract the most capacity, lower discharge currents are needed, and this is why lower currents in general than liquid LA batteries are specified, despite often having much larger Ah capacities. Give them too much current, and they'll locally boil the electrolyte off the plates and fail open.




Never seen one here in 30 years in the business. Sounds like it's a 7 that's just been qualified at a different, lower, discharge current.

From what I understand, they use a somewhat different technology named AGM (for Absorbent Glass Mat). No lead gel as before but fibreglass mats soaked with a liquid electrolyte. Might explain the slight difference in capacity.


AGM and Gel are two names for the same thing. They use a gel electrolyte absorbed into a glass-fibre mat to keep it in contact with the lead electrodes. This means you can use them in any orientation, unlike a traditional lead-acid wet cell.
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Offline nali

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2022, 09:33:29 am »
I presume the power that the smart meter requires is drawn from the unmetered side?  Anyone know typical power draw?  Guessing not huge but when there is millions of the bloody things...
It is a requirement that an electricity meter is powered from the unmetered side. If you think about it, it really has to be. Otherwise the meter would creep when the entire property is turned off, and they would have a customer service nightmare. Meters also don't read the first few milliamps, so they don't creep on noise. The exact number of milliamps varies with the location. Germany estimated that it took a 600MW generating set to power all its Ferraris wheel meters. Electronic meters initially had the selling point of cutting this considerably. Early smart meters took a modest fraction of a watt, However, they have grown in complexity, and I'm not sure how much most of them currently take.

The metered side is also internally switched by a bistable relay. Shame the question didn't come up a few days ago as I've just finished a contract at a meter manufacturer otherwise I could've looked up the spec or just hooked up and measured a device.
 

Offline Neper

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Re: Watt the fμck?
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2022, 01:00:33 pm »
I am familiar with the Power Sonic brand, and consider them to be one of the budget brands, they are in no way a premium brand.

What about Yuasa? Panasonic don't seem to make lead gel batteries anymore. Any other brand you'd be able to recommend?
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