Flat speakers in kitchen ceiling - driver size?

[b_force]

Really, for a speaker it's the sensitivity that matters, not the power rating so much.

That's a pretty bald statement, if not even incorrect.
It totally depends on the requirements.

If someone doesn't need to squeeze out every last bit of dB power can be a fine compromise.
In the end it all depends on SPL vs max power vs cone excursion vs frequency response.
You can have all at the same time.

[rdl]

I made that statement as a response to the below quote. A speaker rated for 90 watts may not require anything near that to actually work. The sensitivity standard for speakers is defined as the sound volume for 1 watt of power at a distance 1 meter from the speaker.

The Speaker Out of a TV is About 15W, these are 90W, so I think I need amplification, but I have found tiny inwall amps that will pass the wife test.

[james_s]

It's nowhere near linear either. Many people would be shocked at how loud one Watt of good clean power is on a decent speaker. 500W doesn't sound anywhere near 500 times as loud.

[gildasd]

It's nowhere near linear either. Many people would be shocked at how loud one Watt of good clean power is on a decent speaker. 500W doesn't sound anywhere near 500 times as loud.

I am just trying to somewhat match the power of the speaker and it's input.
I'm not sure what TV I'll get ( they change models week to week)... so I want to make sure what I precable is sufficient.
Yamaha is not the cheapest, but only 20 to 30% more , but they pass the wife test.
As for me, I like that they are overbuilt.
lastly, long time ago I had a career in event design and production, and I cannot recall a single instance of a Yamaha anything having a problem (JBL, Pioneer, Sony, etc all had their odd bad day. I am willing to pay for peace of mind as I am absent for 6 weeks stints and my wife is technically, erm, let's say she is not mains or even 6V rated.

[b_force]

I made that statement as a response to the below quote. A speaker rated for 90 watts may not require anything near that to actually work. The sensitivity standard for speakers is defined as the sound volume for 1 watt of power at a distance 1 meter from the speaker.

The Speaker Out of a TV is About 15W, these are 90W, so I think I need amplification, but I have found tiny inwall amps that will pass the wife test.

That's correct.

In the end you just need to determine the SPL levels plus bandwith.
With that you can see what kind of speaker you would need.
Although, you can roughly guess based on experience.

Problems with kitchen is the noise of the extractor fan.
So the question is, is the wife always cooking?
Because in that case you need quit some output.
In fact I wouldn't even recommend going that loud.

[gildasd]

The extractor fan is two floors up (yeah, Bernoulli is unhappy).
The stove/oven is quiet, so is the dishwasher.
I have yet to buy the microwave, but that will also have to quiet, best moment to buy is Monday morning when shops are empty and relatively silent.

We had noisy, ugly and cheap appliances for years to save up for nicer things.

[b_force]

Than basically any 5-6.5 inch woofer+tweeter / fullrange will give plenty of noise @ 15-20W

[Psi]

It's nowhere near linear either. Many people would be shocked at how loud one Watt of good clean power is on a decent speaker. 500W doesn't sound anywhere near 500 times as loud.

This++


if it were me, id be installing some Klipsch in-ceiling speakers.

https://www.klipsch.com/ceiling-speakers

[gildasd]

It's nowhere near linear either. Many people would be shocked at how loud one Watt of good clean power is on a decent speaker. 500W doesn't sound anywhere near 500 times as loud.

This++

if it were me, id be installing some Klipsch in-ceiling speakers.

https://www.klipsch.com/ceiling-speakers

Nice, but at 598€ the pair, they are a bit rich for me!
The Yamaha’s at 100€ the pair, allready overkill for a kitchen.
For the difference, I’d rather get a second hand digital scope or Dave’s multimeter.

[b_force]

It's nowhere near linear either. Many people would be shocked at how loud one Watt of good clean power is on a decent speaker. 500W doesn't sound anywhere near 500 times as loud.

This++

if it were me, id be installing some Klipsch in-ceiling speakers.

https://www.klipsch.com/ceiling-speakers

Nice, but at 598€ the pair, they are a bit rich for me!
The Yamaha’s at 100€ the pair, allready overkill for a kitchen.
For the difference, I’d rather get a second hand digital scope or Dave’s multimeter.

600 bucks is a little much yes.
Look at Visaton or Monacor.
Otherwise there are some affordable car audio brands that will work as well.

[BrianHG]

It's nowhere near linear either. Many people would be shocked at how loud one Watt of good clean power is on a decent speaker. 500W doesn't sound anywhere near 500 times as loud.

This++


if it were me, id be installing some Klipsch in-ceiling speakers.

https://www.klipsch.com/ceiling-speakers

These suck at low frequencies, use these guys instead: https://www.solusloudpeakers.com/symetrie-in-ceiling
Only 3db down at 40hz.  I've seen worse sub-woofers.

[Zero999]

It's nowhere near linear either. Many people would be shocked at how loud one Watt of good clean power is on a decent speaker. 500W doesn't sound anywhere near 500 times as loud.

This++


if it were me, id be installing some Klipsch in-ceiling speakers.

https://www.klipsch.com/ceiling-speakers

These suck at low frequencies, use these guys instead: https://www.solusloudpeakers.com/symetrie-in-ceiling
Only 3db down at 40hz.  I've seen worse sub-woofers.

Do they actually meet their advertised specifications? There's a lot of slick marketing there.

I'm not the only one who gets put off a product by marketing? Perhaps even more so when it comes to audio. I'd feel more comfortable with a speaker, from a known brand, with a decent data sheet, than any of that  Neo-Driven, Liquid-Damped & Cooled nonsense.

It's nowhere near linear either. Many people would be shocked at how loud one Watt of good clean power is on a decent speaker. 500W doesn't sound anywhere near 500 times as loud.

I am just trying to somewhat match the power of the speaker and it's input.
I'm not sure what TV I'll get ( they change models week to week)... so I want to make sure what I precable is sufficient.
Yamaha is not the cheapest, but only 20 to 30% more , but they pass the wife test.
As for me, I like that they are overbuilt.
lastly, long time ago I had a career in event design and production, and I cannot recall a single instance of a Yamaha anything having a problem (JBL, Pioneer, Sony, etc all had their odd bad day. I am willing to pay for peace of mind as I am absent for 6 weeks stints and my wife is technically, erm, let's say she is not mains or even 6V rated.

The power rating of a speaker is the maximum amount of power it can take before it's damaged, not what it should be operated at. I also doubt these speakers will actually be able to handle 90W for very long, without melting. It's most likely the peak power rating, not continuous.

I very much doubt you need any amplification. Try them without, then if it's not loud enough, add an amplifier.

[BrianHG]

It's nowhere near linear either. Many people would be shocked at how loud one Watt of good clean power is on a decent speaker. 500W doesn't sound anywhere near 500 times as loud.

This++


if it were me, id be installing some Klipsch in-ceiling speakers.

https://www.klipsch.com/ceiling-speakers

These suck at low frequencies, use these guys instead: https://www.solusloudpeakers.com/symetrie-in-ceiling
Only 3db down at 40hz.  I've seen worse sub-woofers.

Do they actually meet their advertised specifications? There's a lot of slick marketing there.

I'm not the only one who gets put off a product by marketing? Perhaps even more so when it comes to audio. I'd feel more comfortable with a speaker, from a known brand, with a decent data sheet, than any of that  Neo-Driven, Liquid-Damped & Cooled nonsense.

Yes their H-Pass low frequencies technology works (This is achieved by channeling the woofer rear reflection through a damped tuned chamber to extend the lower frequency range).  I have their earlier Clements RT-7 floor stand tower speakers which use a much larger version of the technology with a 7 inch woofer.  It's flat below 30hz and achieves excellent performance even down at 20hz.  Without  a subwoofer, when watching a few good modern action movies, they can knock you out of your seat as well as stereo image the subsonic frequencies from center, to left and right and behind you for those movies with LFE effects on all surround channels properly mixed down to stereo instead of the old AC3 mono LFE channel movies.  And the H-Pass tech doubles the power efficiency of the VLF frequencies it produces.

What's important is that this isn't Chinese designed junk, the audio range and sensitivity is accurate, their low end frequencies beat out most others, and for the price, these guys sound a lot better than the rest.

As for the Neo-Driven, Liquid-Damped, that's just a tweeter technology, the Cooled nonsense is just for the woofer voice coil.  It's just the way it breathes because it does heat up under heavy loads.  You are right, those terms are for marketing, what is important is that the decibel spec and voltage sensitivity is measured accurately.

[james_s]

Let's not get carried away here, it's auxiliary speakers for a TV, not a high end home theater system. If it were me I'd probably just buy an inexpensive set of speakers with a decent looking grill, find a used pair of car speakers from craigslist or scrounge my parts bin for some salvaged drivers and find something to use as a grill. I strongly suspect that as long as they look good the wife will approve and almost anything that isn't complete junk or really, really poor efficiency will sound fine. Certainly anything mounted in the ceiling will sound better than the microscopic speakers built into modern TV sets.

[TMM]

You know you can buy speakers that are specifically designed to mount in roofs, right? Some 5-6.5" coaxials (tweeter in the centre of each woofer) and 10-20Watts per channel will be plenty. Make sure the drivers have plastic or metal cones/domes because steam and oily vapours from a kitchen don't mix well with paper or silk coned/domed speakers.

[b_force]

Let's not get carried away here, it's auxiliary speakers for a TV, not a high end home theater system. If it were me I'd probably just buy an inexpensive set of speakers with a decent looking grill, find a used pair of car speakers from craigslist or scrounge my parts bin for some salvaged drivers and find something to use as a grill. I strongly suspect that as long as they look good the wife will approve and almost anything that isn't complete junk or really, really poor efficiency will sound fine. Certainly anything mounted in the ceiling will sound better than the microscopic speakers built into modern TV sets.

That is exactly my point.
It's always interesting how quickly people loose the goals out of sight.

Even IF someone had the money and audiophool ears for it, I still wouldn't recommend speakers for 600 bucks placed in a CEILING in a kitchen.
That's like using a Tesla just for grocery shopping.
Well, even less, since you barely see them