Author Topic: Wayward EE lost and lamenting  (Read 7771 times)

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Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2020, 02:31:57 pm »
No passion anymore.  Can someone light a fire for me? I see everyone posting projects of electronics they did, but I'm not into hobby circuits.  I need something serious with hard physics to get me going.

What future could possibly result for someone like me.

The good news is that the future could be almost anything.

The bad news is the lack of passion is a problem.  Without that everything is going to feel like work without much purpose.

My suggestion would be to temporarily quit thinking about the next job you want and take some time to figure out what career and life you want.  If you could imagine something that would be great at the end of your career, something that you would really enjoy doing when your career was fully mature - what would that be?

Start with the goal in mind, rather than the next step, then work backward from the goal.  What would you be going just before you retired?  What would you be doing 5 years before that?  10 years before that? And so on until you know what the next step should be in the coming year.  Break the goal down to steps on the way to the goal.

Having said that, this will take some inspection.  What are the attributes of the goal in terms of intellectual interests, monetary needs/wants, and so on.  This might get you halfway to defining the goal, but it probably won't get you all the way there.  Why?  Because these sorts of questions are all about you.  In order to prosper (monetarily, emotionally, etc etc) at almost anything, you have to add value to something beside you.  So, you need to ask, in what field or in what endeavor could you do something that would make the world better for someone else?  Someone else might be a company in an industry, or better yet the customers of that company, or someone somewhere that would benefit from whatever you and your company and your industry does.

Surely, there must be some areas where you say.... "that's cool, that's good, that's desirable, the world will benefit from that, that will make lots of things go better."  Then in those areas that you define as good and appealing, ask yourself "what role can I play, what role do I want to play in that company, industry, field, endeavor?" etc.

The point is that looking for a next job is like driving by observing the hood ornament on a car.  You don't want a job - especially one that is going nowhere in particular, you want a career and a life.  If you spend enough time and commit to figuring out the goal then whatever you have to do next or should do next to put you in a direction toward the goal, that will be a lot more clear and motivational.

Once you get this squared away the work might not be easy but it should be self-motivational, and it will take on a momentum of it's own.  However, until you get it dialed in there might be some "work" involved.  If this process was easy, everyone would be doing it.  But it takes some thought and commitment, and sometimes it takes sacrificing something in the short term for the long term.  Be careful about the "I can't move."  If you are really in a location where the options are so narrow that you can't see how you can ever get to "there" from "here", you might have to change "here."  People have moved to new apartments, homes, cities, and countries.  If you have to, you have to, and you can - but you are more likely to understand why if you think more in terms of not what you are leaving, but where you are going.

In the end, this might be something that very directly uses your EE academic background or it might be something tangential, but it will likely harness at least parts of what you have already assembled - in a way that helps you to your goal (which is not your next job).

Yogi Berra said unless you know where you are going you could wind up somewhere else. :)
 

Offline asmi

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2020, 03:22:18 pm »
Every organisation I've ever worked in, or observed from the outside, paid and respected mediocre software people better than the very best hardware people. It has just become a strange norm that software people get paid better. There is never a shortage of capable hardware people. There is only a shortage of people prepared to work for the pay that is on offer. Shortages self correct when the money is right, but the culture in many countries is to not pay what it takes to get the best people.
This is why I tend to take on projects with a "full stack development" - all the way from the HW into complete SW. And I charge SW rates for everything :-DD It actually makes the whole process more efficient, because many SW design aspects have implications in HW design, which normally needs to be communicated to HW guys (and vice versa too). And whenever there is a communication, there is always a chance for the loss of data - ranging from innocent misunderstandings all the way to active sabotage. If SW designer and HW designer is the same person, this problem disappears.
 
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Offline NSCI0T7Topic starter

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2020, 05:29:30 pm »
Someone once told me all the good analog engineers are 50+, and they're going to be retiring soon.  I don't know how true that is.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2020, 06:08:44 pm »
Someone once told me all the good analog engineers are 50+, and they're going to be retiring soon.  I don't know how true that is.

Yes, that thought crossed my mind when rstofer presented his data on "1000 new EE jobs per year" due to the (limited) expansion of the industry. Retirement is probably missing from that equation, so the employment perspectives are presumably quite a bit better than the number suggests.

"Plain old analog" design (as in audio or such) is probably a shrinking domain. But it's also bound to attract very few new EE graduates. So if you can e.g. complement that with RF skills, and if it "floats your boat", I would say give it a try.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2020, 07:39:32 pm »
Someone once told me all the good analog engineers are 50+, and they're going to be retiring soon.  I don't know how true that is.
It isn't. Most analog engineers I have encountered have been parked in meaningless jobs because there is no more work for them. Given the chance they do come up with brilliant circuits but those are not in high demand.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2020, 07:48:27 pm »
The analog engineers I know are all doing software development in their day jobs. Analog is cool, but it's an esoteric skill these days, at least it is perceived that way in the industry. I suspect you'd be hard pressed to find a job as an analog engineer, but having a solid grasp of analog fundamentals is useful in virtually any EE job.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2020, 07:52:40 pm »
The best analogue engineers I know work in semiconductor companies, developing silicon.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2020, 08:03:30 pm »
Someone once told me all the good analog engineers are 50+, and they're going to be retiring soon.  I don't know how true that is.

Yes, that thought crossed my mind when rstofer presented his data on "1000 new EE jobs per year" due to the (limited) expansion of the industry. Retirement is probably missing from that equation, so the employment perspectives are presumably quite a bit better than the number suggests.

"Plain old analog" design (as in audio or such) is probably a shrinking domain. But it's also bound to attract very few new EE graduates. So if you can e.g. complement that with RF skills, and if it "floats your boat", I would say give it a try.

12,893 U.S. EE degrees in 2017

https://www.asee.org/documents/papers-and-publications/publications/college-profiles/2017-Engineering-by-Numbers-Engineering-Statistics.pdf

Engineering disciplines that awarded the most degrees in
2017 were mechanical engineering, with 30,030 degrees;
computer science (inside engineering), with 15,305 degrees;
and electrical engineering, with 12,893 degrees.

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electrical-and-electronics-engineers.htm

Number of Jobs, 2019   328,100
Job Outlook, 2019-29   3% (As fast as average)

3% of 328,100 = 9,843

If EEs start at 22 and retire at 65 and they retire at an even rate, that would be 328,100 / 43 = 7,630 retiring EEs retired in one year

So, in the U.S. approximately:
328,100 EEs (if all employed as EEs?)
9,843 positions added in one year
7,630 retiring in one year
17,473 needed in one year to fill retiring and new positions
12,893 graduated in one year
4,580 open positions with no EE to fill the positions
 
Edit:  this assumes that there is a need to fill the retired engineers AND add 9,843 new positions; if the 9,843 new positions aren't really new positions but back filling retired EEs, then we would be at about 2k more EEs needed (vs ~13k graduated); probably need to pin down the meaning of "positions added".

2nd Edit:
From the link:
"Job Outlook, 2019-29
The projected percent change in employment from 2019 to 2029. The average growth rate for all occupations is 4 percent."


- This indicates this is the change in employment which seems to imply not just re-filling retired positions but adding new positions, so the original (pre-edit) numbers probably should stand.

Preliminary conclusion:  on a need for about 328k engineers the U.S. is about ~5k short, or less than 2% short.  Which should be at least modestly good for EE wages but maybe not tremendous.  One item not included would be how many EEs come to the U.S. from another country for an EE job, and how many of our total EEs might be taking positions outside the U.S.  Overall, looks pretty close to a balance in supply and demand.  Having said that wages are only partially a reflection of supply and demand; they also reflect the value of the work being done and most work that needs an EE is probably of at least moderate to high value, just a guess.  So, I think EEs are like every other profession; half graduated in the upper half of their class, and despite class rank some perform better than others, and some are fortunate enough to be on high performing teams (companies).  So, personally, I think it's a great degree that can enable someone to bring a lot skills to a lot of opportunities - but it's a starting point, not an end point, and it depends on what the degree holder does with a great starting opportunity.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2020, 08:19:01 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2020, 12:16:15 am »
First you need to evaluate what your location offers.  Are there profitable businesses in your area, or significant government presence?  If so, you may be able to work locally.  All businesses have problems that need to be solved.  Often they are not aware of them.  I know a couple of people who have made a career out of walking in the front door and offering to look for solvable problems for free.  Then offering to sell solutions to the problems.  They often aren't high tech, but sometimes are.  Requires a fine sense of value to the customer.  They won't buy just to make you wealthy.

If you can't make a go of a gig like that, moving or remote work are the only options.

You have set up a very tough case, a small town with a large number of EE grads per year.  With those criteria I would add that you will have to be very good because you will have lots of competition.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2020, 12:41:59 pm »
Someone once told me all the good analog engineers are 50+, and they're going to be retiring soon.  I don't know how true that is.
It isn't. Most analog engineers I have encountered have been parked in meaningless jobs because there is no more work for them. Given the chance they do come up with brilliant circuits but those are not in high demand.

Most electronics engineers in general are parked in meaningful jobs, with meaningless recognition of their value. If you know jack schitt about electronics but am an expert at playing politics, plagiarising, talking BS much of the time including office-speak, and have a humongous ego, you can do really well. Incidentally, one office-speak I hate is "What are the takeaways today?". I once answered, "A dollars worth of chips, two dim sims and one potato cake" (An Aussie version of "a Big Mac, fries and coke"). I hate office-speak, especially that one which will hopefully fade away.
 
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Offline coppice

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2020, 12:44:42 pm »
Incidentally, one office-speak I hate is "What are the takeaways today?".
That's an odd thing to object to. Isn't summarising the conclusions of a discussion of value?
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2020, 05:08:37 pm »
Someone once told me all the good analog engineers are 50+, and they're going to be retiring soon.  I don't know how true that is.
It isn't. Most analog engineers I have encountered have been parked in meaningless jobs because there is no more work for them. Given the chance they do come up with brilliant circuits but those are not in high demand.

Most electronics engineers in general are parked in meaningful jobs, with meaningless recognition of their value. If you know jack schitt about electronics but am an expert at playing politics, plagiarising, talking BS much of the time including office-speak, and have a humongous ego, you can do really well. Incidentally, one office-speak I hate is "What are the takeaways today?". I once answered, "A dollars worth of chips, two dim sims and one potato cake" (An Aussie version of "a Big Mac, fries and coke"). I hate office-speak, especially that one which will hopefully fade away.

This bothered me a lot less when I realized that the skills you are denigrating are rarer than EE skills.  And finding someone who is willing to do them instead of electronics are rarer still, as evidenced by the OP in this column.  And while the particular elements you name are not actually of high value to organizations they tend to be associated with skills and behaviors that do have value.  For example plagiarizing often turns out to be translating an unreadable, overly long document written by an engineer who hated grammar classes and wanted to get on with "real work" into something intelligible by non-technical types.  And few corporate documents follow academia's hallowed traditions of attribution.

  Economics rules.  When supply of those who want to do engineering exceeds demand jobs and/or salaries go down. 
 

Offline NSCI0T7Topic starter

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2020, 04:13:56 am »
Thanks for the reflection.  I'm now considering going for an MBA.  Electrical engineering, you have failed me.
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2020, 04:19:22 am »
Thanks for the reflection.  I'm now considering going for an MBA.  Electrical engineering, you have failed me.

Oh man.

Can you honestly say that there is nothing good you can take away from it?

iratus parum formica
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2020, 04:24:22 am »
Nothing wrong with that decision, as long as you can honestly project that in a couple of years you won't be posting a similar plaint about management.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2020, 05:47:24 am »
Thanks for the reflection.  I'm now considering going for an MBA.  Electrical engineering, you have failed me.

And what are you going to do with that? What company are you thinking of applying to work for? Electrical Engineering didn't fail you, you are failing to do what it takes to get a job that utilizes the degree you earned. If you're in a small town and unwilling to relocate then you're likely to be very limited in your prospects. Certainly explore the local industry, decide on a job you want and then get the education you need to get that job. Don't just get a degree and expect a job to materialize out of nowhere and fall in your lap.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2020, 06:28:13 am »
Thanks for the reflection.  I'm now considering going for an MBA.  Electrical engineering, you have failed me.

And what are you going to do with that? What company are you thinking of applying to work for? Electrical Engineering didn't fail you, you are failing to do what it takes to get a job that utilizes the degree you earned. If you're in a small town and unwilling to relocate then you're likely to be very limited in your prospects. Certainly explore the local industry, decide on a job you want and then get the education you need to get that job. Don't just get a degree and expect a job to materialize out of nowhere and fall in your lap.

I agree. Now is not the time to go back to school, given that we are in the grips of you know, the thing so to speak.   ;)

Networking is the key. I'm not talking about running Cat5 cables. I'm talking about finding out who near to you has a need you can remedy quickly and efficiently. Build up a trust among your peers and your niche will present itself.

iratus parum formica
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2020, 02:44:51 pm »
Thanks for the reflection.  I'm now considering going for an MBA.  Electrical engineering, you have failed me.

If there are no EE jobs where you live and you don't want to relocate, it isn't EE that has failed you.  It just isn't going to happen until your constraints change.  I've been retired for 17 years so I have no idea what is happening but I'll bet there are jobs in Silicon Valley or up north in Seattle or Portland.  Austiin is another possibility.  I might focus on defense contractors simply because the classified work can't be outsourced.  But that probably won't happen in your area.

Just because your degree is in EE doesn't mean you can't apply your skills (notably math) in other areas.  I never spent a day in electronics engineering but I still used my education to make a decent living.  I relocated - twice.  But I had the freedom to do that.

The reason I brought up MBA earlier is that it doesn't tend to have a lot of undergrad requirements.  An MSEE program will insist you have a BSEE but this isn't usually the case for an MBA.  They may insist on undergrad math but EEs have that covered in spades.  You may need to brush up on statistics.  An MBA is the most general of post-graduate degrees - there should be applications just about everywhere.

OTOH, from bls.gov we can see that job growth is in CS, not EE.  How many classes to get a dual major in CS?  That's a job that can be done remotely and the idea of Work From Home is becoming permanent and popular.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2020, 02:50:33 pm »
People with an MBA are so common it really has no value. You certainly don't learn much in an MBA course that is of general value. Wifey has an MBA from a respectable university, and I followed what she was studying.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2020, 12:20:30 am »
People with an MBA are so common it really has no value. You certainly don't learn much in an MBA course that is of general value. Wifey has an MBA from a respectable university, and I followed what she was studying.

Must be a lot of people who already knew a lot if they didn’t learn much of general value when they got their MBA.
 

Offline 0culus

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2020, 02:53:22 am »
Thanks for the reflection.  I'm now considering going for an MBA.  Electrical engineering, you have failed me.

You say you have some RF experience...lots of defense sector companies love that sort of thing. RF engineers aren't nearly as plentiful as leetcode CS codemonkeys. Cleared work has a lot of benefits, most importantly job security.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2020, 04:23:22 am »
Thanks for the reflection.  I'm now considering going for an MBA.  Electrical engineering, you have failed me.

You say you have some RF experience...lots of defense sector companies love that sort of thing. RF engineers aren't nearly as plentiful as leetcode CS codemonkeys. Cleared work has a lot of benefits, most importantly job security.


But probably not in a small town somewhere in Canada. If you want a job like that you usually have to relocate to wherever those jobs are.
 

Offline 0culus

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2020, 04:30:22 am »
Thanks for the reflection.  I'm now considering going for an MBA.  Electrical engineering, you have failed me.

You say you have some RF experience...lots of defense sector companies love that sort of thing. RF engineers aren't nearly as plentiful as leetcode CS codemonkeys. Cleared work has a lot of benefits, most importantly job security.


But probably not in a small town somewhere in Canada. If you want a job like that you usually have to relocate to wherever those jobs are.

Exactly...you move. I would guess a lot of companies would pay for the relocation expenses too, especially if you have harder to find skills.
 

Offline Electro Fan

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2020, 05:47:24 pm »
Thanks for the reflection.  I'm now considering going for an MBA.  Electrical engineering, you have failed me.

You say you have some RF experience...lots of defense sector companies love that sort of thing. RF engineers aren't nearly as plentiful as leetcode CS codemonkeys. Cleared work has a lot of benefits, most importantly job security.


But probably not in a small town somewhere in Canada. If you want a job like that you usually have to relocate to wherever those jobs are.

Exactly...you move. I would guess a lot of companies would pay for the relocation expenses too, especially if you have harder to find skills.

Yep, it would require a move and it would probably be good during interviews to leave out the part about EE having failed the candidate. 
 

Offline NSCI0T7Topic starter

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Re: Wayward EE lost and lamenting
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2020, 06:37:43 pm »
I can't say it's a good decision, and $60k+ means I should be sure before I start.  But when I look at how I want to live my life when I'm 45+, I want it to be helping get medical technologies to market.  I don't think society has a lack of engineers with ideas.  They have a lack of people picking a technology and knowing a peculiar strategy to get it to the hands of patients that need it.

I know this doesn't address the relocation bit.
 


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