UPDATED: Well... looks like I've l̶o̶s̶t̶ won the battle against scam callers

[Halcyon]

I don't know the technical details of how number spoofing works/is prevented, but I've never seen a spoofed number appear on my carriers network (Telstra). Whatever controls they have in-place seem to be working. I can't speak of the other carriers though, as I've never used them.

All of the spam/scam calls I receive are usually from the same block of numbers, which are obviously VoIP services connected to the normal telco network, so the numbers are real, they just have incoming call restrictions enabled so you can't call them back.

Some legitimate companies route all their outbound calls so they appear to come from their main number, which is fine. The way the trunk is set up means they can only "spoof" that number that belongs to them and no one else as it's done at the network level.

SMS spoofing is entirely different but it's something the carriers are working on. Like CID spoofing, I've never seen a spoofed SMS on Telstra's network. Maybe it's something that plagues the cheaper MVNOs? I don't know for certain. There seems to be new rules surrounding this for anyone who wants a read: https://www.commsalliance.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/72150/C661_2022.pdf

[gnuarm]

I don't know the technical details of how number spoofing works/is prevented, but I've never seen a spoofed number appear on my carriers network (Telstra). Whatever controls they have in-place seem to be working. I can't speak of the other carriers though, as I've never used them.

How do you know the number is spoofed or not?  Do you ever get calls from someone with a thick Indian accent, offering you insurance for "final expenses"?  Actually, that's likely only for people of certain ages, so maybe not.  If you do, and it's not an overseas call, you've been spoofed.

All of the spam/scam calls I receive are usually from the same block of numbers, which are obviously VoIP services connected to the normal telco network, so the numbers are real, they just have incoming call restrictions enabled so you can't call them back.

How do you know any of this?  I think you are kidding yourself.

[Halcyon]

I don't know the technical details of how number spoofing works/is prevented, but I've never seen a spoofed number appear on my carriers network (Telstra). Whatever controls they have in-place seem to be working. I can't speak of the other carriers though, as I've never used them.

How do you know the number is spoofed or not?  Do you ever get calls from someone with a thick Indian accent, offering you insurance for "final expenses"?  Actually, that's likely only for people of certain ages, so maybe not.  If you do, and it's not an overseas call, you've been spoofed.

All of the spam/scam calls I receive are usually from the same block of numbers, which are obviously VoIP services connected to the normal telco network, so the numbers are real, they just have incoming call restrictions enabled so you can't call them back.

How do you know any of this?  I think you are kidding yourself.

It's easy to see whether a number is a VoIP service or not. There are plenty of lookup tools that give you information about a number, it's rough geographical location, etc...

Also, how do I know this? Simple, look at the number. 99% of the scam calls I've received originate from numbers in the +61 2 5119 2xxx, +61 2 725x xxxx and +61 2 9564 7xxx blocks of numbers. They aren't random nor are they spoofed numbers belonging to someone else, if they were, they'd be pretty bloody obvious.

Whether they have an Indian accent or not is irrelevant. You don't need to be in Australia to use an Australian VoIP service/number. There's this thing called the internet which allows you to use those services from anywhere in the world. For example, you yourself can jump on Skype right now and register your own telephone number in just about any country in the world.
https://support.skype.com/en/faq/FA269/in-which-countries-are-skype-numbers-available

So it's a little rude to suggest that I'm "kidding myself" with no basis.

[gnuarm]

I don't know the technical details of how number spoofing works/is prevented, but I've never seen a spoofed number appear on my carriers network (Telstra). Whatever controls they have in-place seem to be working. I can't speak of the other carriers though, as I've never used them.

How do you know the number is spoofed or not?  Do you ever get calls from someone with a thick Indian accent, offering you insurance for "final expenses"?  Actually, that's likely only for people of certain ages, so maybe not.  If you do, and it's not an overseas call, you've been spoofed.

All of the spam/scam calls I receive are usually from the same block of numbers, which are obviously VoIP services connected to the normal telco network, so the numbers are real, they just have incoming call restrictions enabled so you can't call them back.

How do you know any of this?  I think you are kidding yourself.

It's easy to see whether a number is a VoIP service or not. There are plenty of lookup tools that give you information about a number, it's rough geographical location, etc...

Also, how do I know this? Simple, look at the number. 99% of the scam calls I've received originate from numbers in the +61 2 5119 2xxx, +61 2 725x xxxx and +61 2 9564 7xxx blocks of numbers. They aren't random nor are they spoofed numbers belonging to someone else, if they were, they'd be pretty bloody obvious.

Whether they have an Indian accent or not is irrelevant. You don't need to be in Australia to use an Australian VoIP service/number. There's this thing called the internet which allows you to use those services from anywhere in the world. For example, you yourself can jump on Skype right now and register your own telephone number in just about any country in the world.
https://support.skype.com/en/faq/FA269/in-which-countries-are-skype-numbers-available

So it's a little rude to suggest that I'm "kidding myself" with no basis.

So you don't get spam calls from your own area code?  You are one in a thousand.   

But, I'm sorry that you understand so little of what I've said.  The phone number reported on your caller ID has nothing to do with where the call originates.

[Halcyon]

So you don't get spam calls from your own area code?  You are one in a thousand.   

But, I'm sorry that you understand so little of what I've said.  The phone number reported on your caller ID has nothing to do with where the call originates.

This is exactly what I said (read my last post).

It seems that you're the one who has little understanding. Let me enlighten you. Australia doesn't use "area codes" in the traditional sense. Those were largely abolished a long time ago when we went to 8-digit telephone numbers (10 if you include the state (or STD) code). The first two digits in a fixed line phone number designates the state (02 is New South Wales and ACT for example). This "area code" (if you like) is optional when you're dialling within your own state. Whether it's a VoIP service or a landline phone, the equipment is present in that state and connects to an exchange there (with some exceptions for border towns). To give you some understanding of how big an area we're talking about, the state of New South Wales (where I live) covers an area of over 800,000 square kilometers. Travelling from the east-most point to the west-most point is over 1000 kilometers.

In some cases, the first (and sometimes the second) digit of the phone number itself might loosely define a more narrower geographic area (like a council area or a county) but that's more of a throw-back from the old days. It's not a reliable method of determining where a call is coming from anymore.

Mobile numbers always start with 04; Landlines never do.

If you take the numbers I gave in my example, they loosely align to numbers based in Sydney but they could be anywhere else in the state. "Sydney" could be a few kilometers down the road, or 100 kilometers away.

So no, I don't get spam calls from my own area code since they don't really exist anymore. In fact, some scam calls I've received in the past are from another block of VoIP numbers based in entirely different states.

The only reason scammers use VoIP services based in Australia (and other countries) is so they appear "more legitimate" compared to say, an international number originating from India, or a blocked number with no caller ID. Most people would simply not answer those calls are they are out of the ordinary (and expensive for the scammers to place the call). Scammers are actually buying/leasing these services as they are relatively cheap, they don't spoof them (not here anyway). Some scammers will even go as far as operating "pop up" call centres physically in the country, I have seen this myself.

As I mentioned before, telcos are taking action against caller-ID spoofing and whilst I don't know the in-depth technical details about the mechanisms, I would say it's largely impossible to do on today's infrastructure (at least, without the telco's cooperation). How telephone networks operate outside of Australia, I don't know.

SMS spoofing is an entirely different topic. That does happen, at least on some networks.

[gnuarm]

So you don't get spam calls from your own area code?  You are one in a thousand.   

But, I'm sorry that you understand so little of what I've said.  The phone number reported on your caller ID has nothing to do with where the call originates.

This is exactly what I said (read my last post).

Did you not write this?

Simple, look at the number. 99% of the scam calls I've received originate from numbers in the +61 2 5119 2xxx, +61 2 725x xxxx and +61 2 9564 7xxx blocks of numbers.

When I say the calling number is meaningless, why do you counter by telling me how meaningful the calling number is?  I'm very confused.

It seems that you're the one who has little understanding. Let me enlighten you. Australia doesn't use "area codes" in the traditional sense. Those were largely abolished a long time ago when we went to 8-digit telephone numbers (10 if you include the state (or STD) code). The first two digits in a fixed line phone number designates the state (02 is New South Wales and ACT for example). This "area code" (if you like) is optional when you're dialling within your own state. Whether it's a VoIP service or a landline phone, the equipment is present in that state and connects to an exchange there (with some exceptions for border towns). To give you some understanding of how big an area we're talking about, the state of New South Wales (where I live) covers an area of over 800,000 square kilometers. Travelling from the east-most point to the west-most point is over 1000 kilometers.

There's your problem.  The calls are from India.  Ultimately there is a connection to the land lines in Australia, but that's not the origin of the number reported by caller ID.  Unfortunately, this is a result of a world wide phone system. 

In some cases, the first (and sometimes the second) digit of the phone number itself might loosely define a more narrower geographic area (like a council area or a county) but that's more of a throw-back from the old days. It's not a reliable method of determining where a call is coming from anymore.

Mobile numbers always start with 04; Landlines never do.

If you take the numbers I gave in my example, they loosely align to numbers based in Sydney but they could be anywhere else in the state. "Sydney" could be a few kilometers down the road, or 100 kilometers away.

None of those numbers matter.  They were generated by the spammers in India.  Phone numbers don't work like IP addresses on the Internet. 

So no, I don't get spam calls from my own area code since they don't really exist anymore. In fact, some scam calls I've received in the past are from another block of VoIP numbers based in entirely different states.

You fail to understand that the numbers you see have nothing to do with where the calls originate.  This is much like spoofing a "from" email address.  I can use any "from" email address I want, and in fact, do use a number of them for my business.

The only reason scammers use VoIP services based in Australia (and other countries) is so they appear "more legitimate" compared to say, an international number originating from India, or a blocked number with no caller ID. Most people would simply not answer those calls are they are out of the ordinary (and expensive for the scammers to place the call). Scammers are actually buying/leasing these services as they are relatively cheap, they don't spoof them (not here anyway). Some scammers will even go as far as operating "pop up" call centres physically in the country, I have seen this myself.

Exactly! 

As I mentioned before, telcos are taking action against caller-ID spoofing and whilst I don't know the in-depth technical details about the mechanisms, I would say it's largely impossible to do on today's infrastructure (at least, without the telco's cooperation). How telephone networks operate outside of Australia, I don't know.

SMS spoofing is an entirely different topic. That does happen, at least on some networks.

The problem is, the calling number is supplied by the equipment at the origin of the call, and there's nothing to be done to prevent this being spoofed.

[Halcyon]

I'm very confused.

I don't think you're confused. I think you're trying to change the narrative from earlier when you said "How do you know the number is spoofed or not?" and "Do you ever get calls from someone with a thick Indian accent, offering you insurance for "final expenses"?...  If you do, and it's not an overseas call, you've been spoofed" then proceeded to claim that I was "kidding myself". Those were your words. Not mine.

I provided you a clear explanation of how these sorts of scam calls worked on our networks here.

There's your problem.  The calls are from India.

You're making an assumption. Sometimes they are. Sometimes they aren't.

Ultimately there is a connection to the land lines in Australia, but that's not the origin of the number reported by caller ID.

Now you're splitting hairs. You're talking about the physical seat where someone is sitting. I'm talking about the origin of the call on a telephone network. For all intents and purposes, the "origin" is the point where the call hits the telephone network (and thus the "A Party" number). That "origin" I'm talking about is the VoIP server sitting somewhere in Australia where it connects to the telco, i.e.: the boundary between internet and telecommunications network.

You claimed earlier that the number is simply "spoofed" (once again, your words, not mine). I told you that's incorrect when in fact it's a real number connected to a real telecommunications network. I also said they typically have incoming call restrictions so you can't call them back.

None of those numbers matter.  They were generated by the spammers in India.  Phone numbers don't work like IP addresses on the Internet.

Wrong on both accounts. The numbers aren't "generated" by the spammers, at least not when it comes to our big networks here (your country and systems might be different and susceptible to spoofing in this way). As I mentioned, they are actual numbers sitting on the network.

And phone numbers are in a way analogous to IP addresses on the internet. A phone number is simply an "address" to a terminal or a phone somewhere. The digits reflect where and how the call is routed across networks.

This is much like spoofing a "from" email address.  I can use any "from" email address I want, and in fact, do use a number of them for my business.

This is a good way to have your emails blocked by many mail servers. Mechanisms like SPF/DKIM and DMARC are used to prevent spoofed email addresses. You might want to look into that.

The problem is, the calling number is supplied by the equipment at the origin of the call, and there's nothing to be done to prevent this being spoofed.

You're incorrect (at least when it comes to the big networks here, as I mentioned, your country might differ).

Telstra (Australia's largest telco) have taken steps to prevent CID spoofing from occurring, which is why scammers are increasingly resorting to leasing legitimate VoIP services with legitimate telephone numbers to get around this. There were cases years ago where caller ID was being spoofed and people would get "missed calls" from mobile numbers that never made the call. That's all stopped now.


Anyway, that's all I have to say on the matter. I don't feel like going around in circles with you. Feel free to respond, but I won't be reading it.

[gnuarm]

I'm very confused.

I don't think you're confused. I think you're trying to change the narrative from earlier when you said "How do you know the number is spoofed or not?" and "Do you ever get calls from someone with a thick Indian accent, offering you insurance for "final expenses"?...  If you do, and it's not an overseas call, you've been spoofed" then proceeded to claim that I was "kidding myself". Those were your words. Not mine.

I provided you a clear explanation of how these sorts of scam calls worked on our networks here.

You think you have done that, but you haven 't. 

Tell me this.  If a call comes from India, but is being spoofed to look like it came from Australia, how would you know? 

Three cases:

1) Call from Australia

2) Call from India

3) Call from India, spoofed to look like a call from the same Australian number in (1).

What will your caller ID show in each of these three cases?

There's your problem.  The calls are from India.

You're making an assumption. Sometimes they are. Sometimes they aren't.

But, you are not allowing for any of that.  More importantly, you don't explain how you know where any calls are actually coming from. 

Ultimately there is a connection to the land lines in Australia, but that's not the origin of the number reported by caller ID.

Now you're splitting hairs. You're talking about the physical seat where someone is sitting. I'm talking about the origin of the call on a telephone network.

That's the whole point!!!  They are calling from India, spoofing the telephone network to look like they are down the street from you!!!

For all intents and purposes, the "origin" is the point where the call hits the telephone network (and thus the "A Party" number). That "origin" I'm talking about is the VoIP server sitting somewhere in Australia where it connects to the telco, i.e.: the boundary between internet and telecommunications network.

So, if they are calling from India and not spoofing the number, how does the network know the call is from India?  Where does it get the number?

You claimed earlier that the number is simply "spoofed" (once again, your words, not mine). I told you that's incorrect when in fact it's a real number connected to a real telecommunications network. I also said they typically have incoming call restrictions so you can't call them back.

I don't know what a "real" number is.  Every long distance call is the same.  There is a protocol that reports the calling number, which can be spoofed. 

None of those numbers matter.  They were generated by the spammers in India.  Phone numbers don't work like IP addresses on the Internet.

Wrong on both accounts. The numbers aren't "generated" by the spammers, at least not when it comes to our big networks here (your country and systems might be different and susceptible to spoofing in this way). As I mentioned, they are actual numbers sitting on the network.

This has nothing to do with your network.  When a phone calls from India, it has to report the number that is calling.  That can be spoofed.  You keep talking about the Australian telephone exchange as if it doesn't connect anywhere else in the world.  That's not how they work.

And phone numbers are in a way analogous to IP addresses on the internet. A phone number is simply an "address" to a terminal or a phone somewhere. The digits reflect where and how the call is routed across networks.

The number analogy is where it ends.  In the IP, whoever your server contacts knows your server's IP address, and repeats for each step from IP to IP address.  This gives a traceable chain of IP addresses that points right back to you.  That does not exist in phone systems.

This is much like spoofing a "from" email address.  I can use any "from" email address I want, and in fact, do use a number of them for my business.

This is a good way to have your emails blocked by many mail servers. Mechanisms like SPF/DKIM and DMARC are used to prevent spoofed email addresses. You might want to look into that.

LOL!!!  I've already told you I've been doing this every day for the last 20 years!!!!  Just like you talk about phones reporting the company's main number, rather than the exact phone you are calling from, it is commonplace to have any number of email addresses that send email, but direct replies to another email address.

You clearly know less about email than you do the telephone network, so I won't continue to try to explain this analogy.

The problem is, the calling number is supplied by the equipment at the origin of the call, and there's nothing to be done to prevent this being spoofed.

You're incorrect (at least when it comes to the big networks here, as I mentioned, your country might differ).

Telstra (Australia's largest telco) have taken steps to prevent CID spoofing from occurring, which is why scammers are increasingly resorting to leasing legitimate VoIP services with legitimate telephone numbers to get around this. There were cases years ago where caller ID was being spoofed and people would get "missed calls" from mobile numbers that never made the call. That's all stopped now.


Anyway, that's all I have to say on the matter. I don't feel like going around in circles with you. Feel free to respond, but I won't be reading it.

Exactly.  No point in trying to teach you anything, when you refuse to answer any of my questions, which clearly show you don't understand.

[tom66]

It doesn't work that way.  Just like boiler rooms can spring up overnight, these VOIP routing companies spring up overnight and operate until they have to pay a bill or two.  The payments are not made in real time.

Well, make them pay a deposit upfront for the first 1,000 calls, and cut their connection if they don't pay up.  It's really not that difficult, it's just that phone companies aren't motivated to stop it.

[Shonky]

Numbers are (or at least were) spoofed in Australia.

This is how you end up with real calls from non scammers asking why you called them when you absolutely did not.

Or hang up calls where the from number is one or two digits off my mobile. That is no coincidence.

And that's within the last 12 months on both occasions. Saying numbers aren't spoofed is simply not correct.

[gnuarm]

It doesn't work that way.  Just like boiler rooms can spring up overnight, these VOIP routing companies spring up overnight and operate until they have to pay a bill or two.  The payments are not made in real time.

Well, make them pay a deposit upfront for the first 1,000 calls, and cut their connection if they don't pay up.  It's really not that difficult, it's just that phone companies aren't motivated to stop it.

Who's going to make them pay anything???  They are in another country, dealing with a company in another country, dealing with a company in another country!!!

You can't legislate this away.  If we could, we would also be able to end copyright infringement, email scams and all manner of other issues, that originate in other countries. 

Good luck with your idea. 

[gnuarm]

 

[Halcyon]

2024 UPDATE.

Since my original post, the number of scam calls has reduced to zero.

However over the past few weeks, I've been finding that I'm on some kind of marketing list. I've been getting callers actually leaving voice messages. Regardless, it's all rubbish and they've probably matched my name, job title and phone number from somewhere else.

As of today, I'm no longer accepting any "traditional" or "unencrypted" calls to my number. If you try to call, you'll get a standard network error message and the call will terminate. No option to leave a message.

We'll see how this goes... Is it just me or has regular telephony just become so polluted with garbage that it's no longer viable?

[Shonky]

What is an encrypted phone call?

[Halcyon]

What is an encrypted phone call?

For me, it means calls via the Signal application (but still using my phone number). But Whatsapp and other VoIP services could also fall into this category. Most of my contacts use Signal for messaging and voice/video calls.

[BradC]

Is it just me or has regular telephony just become so polluted with garbage that it's no longer viable?

I think it's just you. Of the 30 or so calls I get a week I'm seeing a scam call every other week or so. I still get the odd week of "random" calls when my number gets spoofed, but I find it interesting talking to people from around Australia to see where they are and how their day is going.

I think you'll find most "normal" people, and certainly those with any reason to interact with "the great unwashed" don't have the luxury of forgoing actual conventional telecommunications. It kinda seems a bit severe though. Almost like "Gee I need a haircut, I'll go get chemo".

Glad it works for you however.

[Halcyon]

Is it just me or has regular telephony just become so polluted with garbage that it's no longer viable?

but I find it interesting talking to people from around Australia to see where they are and how their day is going.

I'm glad you have the time for this.

I guess to add to one of your other points you raised in your previous message; Most commercial business I do is online. For example, if I need to register my car, or pay a bill, it's all done online and I get notified via email. With email, you can verify the authenticity of the sender with a high degree of confidence. The same cannot be said for a voice on the end of a phone.

[BradC]

I'm glad you have the time for this.

I make time. I'm a consultant, so the next phone call could be from a client with a problem or someone who has a problem and isn't yet a client. I can't afford to ignore the phone because that's where a majority of my work comes from.

Plus, my 102 year old grandfather can dial a phone. Signal? Not so much.

[Halcyon]

This problem would be largely solved if Android could just whitelist numbers in your contacts and not allow any others through.

[Whales]

What is an encrypted phone call?

For me, it means calls via the Signal application (but still using my phone number). But Whatsapp and other VoIP services could also fall into this category. Most of my contacts use Signal for messaging and voice/video calls.

The term "phone number" is now very confusing.

Traditionally: your phone number is a thing leased from a phone company and centrally managed, so if you get a call to your mobile phone number then it is by definition through your mobile provider.  Let's call it mp://614xxxxxxxx for shorthand (Australian mobile phone numbers are in the format 04xxxxxxxx internally but 614xxxxxxxx externally).

These days: some services use your phone number as part of a user ID (that way they offload problems like spam signups & complaints to another company, which saves tremendous amounts of staff & money), and they make it look like you are "receiving calls to your number" even though it's a completely different system.  Let's call Signal's example as signal://614xxxxxxxx for short.

Can I now "get a call to my phone number" from any service that includes my phone number in their user id?  It's just a string of numbers, it has little or nothing to do with actual traditional number registration systems.    mailto://614xxxxxxxx.com  http://614xxxxxxxx.net  sip://614xxxxxxxx@example.com.  From the user's perspective: yes, I got a phone call to +614xxxxxxxx.  From a technical perspective: no, you got a call to a completely different thing that just happens to include those numbers in it.

We'll see how this goes... Is it just me or has regular telephony just become so polluted with garbage that it's no longer viable?

Somehow it seems to strongly be a per-number problem.

My shared family home phone (now a SIP phone) has a horrible scam call problem whilst my desk phone (SIP) and mobile phone have never received a scam call.

We've worked around the home phone issue by configuring it only to play a ring when the incoming CID matches someone in the address book.  It works wonderfully -- we no longer feel pangs of hatred when the phone rings because we know it is always someone we care about ringing us.  Meanwhile it still logs 2-10 different scam call attempts every single day in its logs (not a joke).  Failed call attempts don't get billed in Australia, so they probably don't care.

This problem would be largely solved if Android could just whitelist numbers in your contacts and not allow any others through.

You'll need a third party app for this, it's not a builtin feature.  They've also removed SIP support from the built in phone app too (as of Android 11 or 10?).  Google doesn't give a damn about you.

I would love a world with proper competition other than the Google Apple duopoly.  In the meantime:  F-droid seems to be one of the best options to get new apps whilst avoiding scams & headaches.  You might need to use the search term "blacklist" and then check if the app actually supports a whitelist mode (don't question the level of insanity I needed to work this out).

[coromonadalix]

i receive daily at least 10 falses sms,  and around 50 a week in emails,  so tired  of this crap

emails rules, no avail, they play with wording, or text icons  etc ....     i can report some of them  but ....


and yes older android versions where doing a better job  at blocking a few things,  google managed to break some functionality and now blocking a few things is harder than before

 abd finally i lost this battle  loll

[Halcyon]

Email for me is not really a big deal. I rarely get spam in my private email (maybe a few per year). Google's filtering does a pretty awesome job, but then again, I also never give out my primary address. For stuff like Linkedin, I use aliases which I recreate every so often to avoid all the "professional spam" you can't opt-out of. They'll just get a bounced email when the address changes.

At work is a different story and the Spam Act (unfortunately) largely doesn't apply. I've got to the point now that I've created mail flow rules, so if you send me unsolicited marketing email (that's clearly just scraping my information from a variety of sources), I'll block their entire domain from contacting anyone in our organisation, permanently. Businesses need to realise that this mass-mailing largely doesn't work, and I have absolutely zero interest in doing business with a company that engages in that shit. If I want their services, I'll reach out to them, not the other way around.

[johnh]

I asked my home answering service (SWMBO)  as it her mother that normally calls our landline.  MIL is suffering from Dementia.
Side note: she called us 3 time on Christmas day, to wish us happy Christmas.   

She said we haven't had a span call on the landline for months.
She said she has had one dodgy call on her mobile, robo voice saying they were from bank xyz about our mortgage, which we don't bank with and one dodgy sms in last couple of weeks.
Much better than a few years back. When every call was about your Internet service was faulty, NBN migration, NBN service problems the list goes on

[Halcyon]

When every call was about your Internet service was faulty, NBN migration, NBN service problems the list goes on

To be fair, if you're on NBN FTTN or HFC, there is a very high chance that your connection is faulty. 

[Whales]

At work is a different story and the Spam Act (unfortunately) largely doesn't apply.

!

My shared home phone was once the number for a business my parents ran.

Perhaps that's the difference?