UPDATED: Well... looks like I've l̶o̶s̶t̶ won the battle against scam callers

[Halcyon]

Phone-based scams are nothing new, however I've had the same mobile phone number since 1997. Until about 6 months ago, I might get 2 or 3 scam calls per year. Most recently it's closer to 1 per day (and they are the ones that get through the spam filter).

Obviously my number has finally made it onto some kind of list and it's the usual suspects calling constantly. I report and block every single number, but they simply buy a block of VoIP numbers and rotate them around. It would be nice if I could block an entire prefix, but it doesn't seem to be a feature on native Android (yet). It would prevent 99% of the callers, at least for a little while.

Another useful feature would be to only accept calls from those in my contacts, but again, not a feature that's available in the native phone application.

The Google call screening feature has been great (where I can screen calls without answering them) but it still required manual intervention and the scammers aren't smart enough to remove my number from their list, since they never actually get to a real human.

Keen to hear how others manage these nuisance callers.

Update: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/well-looks-like-ive-lost-the-battle-with-scam-callers/msg4914376/#msg4914376

Second update: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/well-looks-like-ive-lost-the-battle-with-scam-callers/msg5291752/#msg5291752

[Bud]

Another useful feature would be to only accept calls from those in my contacts, but again, not a feature that's available in the native phone application.

Exists natively on iPhone.

[Halcyon]

Another useful feature would be to only accept calls from those in my contacts, but again, not a feature that's available in the native phone application.

Exists natively on iPhone.

That's all well and good but I don't use Apple devices, mostly because they don't do what I want them to.

[ataradov]

Obviously my number has finally made it onto some kind of list and it's the usual suspects calling constantly.

I don't think there is a list, they just call all the numbers. But they tend to do this in waves.

And I think they may be focusing now on the rest of the world, since US finally did something and actually starting to enforce caller authentication.  The amount of calls I get dropped to zero in the last two weeks after getting 2-3 a day.

I report and block every single number,

There is no point, they are spoofing them anyway. You may be blocking someone's legitimate number.

Keen to hear how others manage these nuisance callers.

There is nothing you can do until government takes action. The solution is there, but telcos are making so much money on that, they don't want to do it unless forced.

[Halcyon]

There are several lists threat actors/scammers can obtain of legitimate numbers. Whenever there is a breach, those details appear on multiple sites on the internet for anyone to download. This includes a list of legitimate phone numbers. To call every number would mostly be a waste of time.

I'm not sure what the Australian telcos are or have done regarding caller ID authentication, but I've never had a case where a number has been spoofed. That's not to say I haven't heard of it happening, it's just extremely uncommon. Most of the time, they just buy a block of numbers from any cheap VoIP service and use those until they are exhausted. Going back through my block list, about 90% of calls originate from a +61 2 725x xxxx or +61 2 9564 7xxx number.

I'm honestly at the stage where I don't care if I'm completely unreachable via phone. My friends mostly call me on Signal and work calls me via Microsoft Teams anyway. Everyone else, including government agencies, I usually deal with via email or through their respective online portals.

EDIT: Telstra (Australia's largest telco) do actively block known scam calls. According to a blog post last year, Telstra block an average of 13 million scam calls per month at the network level.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I run a service that scrubs phone numbers off of scam call lists.

Send me $100 and your number and I'll fix it for you.

[ataradov]

Significant chunk of phone number is assigned to someone, so you will get a hit on random calls. Unless there is some more info on the target, I'm not sure what value the list like that would provide.

They may also save lists of number that were in service after random calling.

Some of them for sure just use sequential dialing, since I've heard stories of people with sequential corporate phones getting called in a row.

Here they used to spoof area code of the target phone. It is super obvious, since area code does not really mean anything on mobile numbers. If this is not the case, then I guess blocking would work. I was reluctant to block stuff, since some of the spoofed numbers actually belong to local businesses and even government agencies.

And yes, I basically don't pick up the phone unless it is in my address book or I'm actually expecting a call.

[Halcyon]

I'm honestly just sick of the interruptions. I don't have time for this shit. Maybe sending everything to voicemail initially might be the way to go. Scammers almost never bother to leave a message, particularly as a lot of those scam call centres don't accept incoming calls.

[johnh]

Scammer will use an valid calling number for the country they are targeting.
What piss's me off are the carrier/providers that don't care to make sure that they own the number, have the right to use.
i.e. Validate they can use the number or transit the call.

Either it's a native number ( number range they purchased from the ACMA)  or ported to there network

There is a lot of complexity in SPAM prevention and some of the smaller carriers probably don't care as they make some money from every call that gets connected.
is this a diverted call?  Calling inbound numbers and there answer points.

Some of the major carriers are blocking millions of calls.

I still get the occasional "Wangiri" fraud call.
But, then i don't expect/receive  many international calls to my mobile 


But, the scammer are learning at the same time.   They aren't idiots just evil bastards

[BravoV]

When I got my new phone, every-times, I set the "DEFAULT" ringtones to none/silent, and also at the "DEFAULT" notification tone and vibration of any chat apps.

So everytimes an unknown caller or unknown/foreign chat message arrived, they will basically get silenced and no annoying notification at all.

For legit caller/contact or chat counterpart, you will have to assign notification tone for them individually, all you need is just to remember when adding a new contact, assign a notification tone for them each. Its a one time task.

[eti]

I run a service that scrubs phone numbers off of scam call lists.

Send me $100 and your number and I'll fix it for you.

Send me a $1,000 by W/Union and I’ll send your a signed certificate of ownership of your new bridge!

[Siwastaja]

I'm honestly just sick of the interruptions. I don't have time for this shit. Maybe sending everything to voicemail initially might be the way to go. Scammers almost never bother to leave a message, particularly as a lot of those scam call centres don't accept incoming calls.

Just accept the fact that telephone (voice call) is dead, RIP, rest in pieces? It lasted for 150 years.

It's baffling how difficult it is in modern times to contact a stranger, for example if you have something business-related. You can't call because telephone system have been terrorized dead, you can't email because of exact same reason. Basically it's back to snail mail or personally visiting.

[rdl]

Unless I'm expecting a call, I usually just ignore them if the number is not one of my contacts.

[hans]

All sensible advice, but it's still an interrupt.

People can contact me in tons of different ways. I prefer in person, voicechat, emails, chat, all above phone calls. Urgency and depth of conversation at orthogonal. So if someone calls me, I really want to pick up because it probably has some urgency to it.

Consider the difference between private/professional availability as well. Some friends don't pick up the first call if they are busy. If people call 2-3 times in a row, they know they have to drop what they're doing right now. I think some phones let you filter calls unless they are coming in a few times in a row. However, that's not really an option for everyone, especially professionally.

I'm not sure if a 'service' to scrub phone numbers is effective. The people that do scamcalls are criminals, and I'm not sure how a negotiation with criminals is going to look like. In my experience it's up there with human traffi*cough* recruiters etc. where if you ask them to delete your file/details because you're not interested (and EU privacy laws), they still don't budge. They don't care. If you sue them for having your number on their list, I suppose that law case is the least of their problems.

[NiHaoMike]

If it's a real caller, put the phone up to the smoke alarm and press the button.

[xrunner]

Select a distinctive ringtone for your contacts which is the same sound. All other ring tones will be unknown callers. Simply don't answer. If it's an important message from a long lost relative they will leave a message.

All the calls I get from people who want to buy my house (a bothersome problem for people in my area now) I don't answer. Guess what? They don't ever leave a message.

[m k]

A message is obvious next step if you have a legit case.

Around here the current issue is optical fibre.
How would a blocked general sales call go through to those who are possibly interested?
For now it's door to door and leaflets, after general awareness ads.

Here, still few years ago, don't know how it is now, voice was differently legislated, aerial radio and TV also.
For voice it was even a bit more different, telcos fought against VoIP, surprisingly they were never against cable TV.

In practice the law was that if you speak nobody is allowed to tap the call, without a special exception.
And it continued so that if that sound is not speak the law is still the same.
But then everything changed and protection of the law was not present for calls outside of the phone network.
And telcos argued that old legislation must be widened to cover all calls.
For protection of the public that was not, just a simple money thing it was.

Now all net addresses are free to grab.
I'd say that finally there must be a state operated gate keeper.
Here it already goes so that you can't manage your own addresses.
The real reason is that state had no entity to keep up so one commercial step was created in between.
It's still the same free to grab but state has less clueless questions to answer.

[Stray Electron]

Keen to hear how others manage these nuisance callers.

   1) NEVER answer a call unless you KNOW exactly who it is. If you do answer a call from a SCAMMER, you'll go right back to the top of not only their call list but also all of the list of all of the other SCAMMERS.

    2)  NEVER, EVER, EVER give your phone number to your doctor's office or any other business.  Take my word for it, they ALL sell their data to other companies (quaintly referred to as their "business associates") and your data will spread like wildfire.

    3) Block the phone number of EVERY unknown caller that you get a call from. (You can later unblock the number if it turns out that the call was legitimate.)  Tele SCAMMERS do change their phone numbers periodically but after a time they seem to reuse their old numbers again.  So if you block them after the first call, you'll never be bothered again.

    4)  Re-read rule #2!   I don't care what excuses or reasons they offer, do NOT give them your phone number or you will be on everyone's call list.

 
  Over the last 20 or so years I've tried every combination and technique but the rules above are the only thing that has worked.

      I was particularly upset to find that at least two of my Dr's offices were "sharing" my information, in direct violation of the Hippa Act.

[Stray Electron]

Another useful feature would be to only accept calls from those in my contacts, but again, not a feature that's available in the native phone application.

Exists natively on iPhone.

   There is a setting for it on my Samsung phone but it doesn't work!   

[Stray Electron]

I'm honestly at the stage where I don't care if I'm completely unreachable via phone.

    X2.  This is where I'm at too.  My family and friend's know how to find me.  Everyone else can FO. It's not worth being interrupted 10 to 20 times PER DAY to get one legitimate call.

    Thanks to the telemarketers, pollsters, political calls, charity hoaxs and other SCAMMERS and the inaction of the phone companies, the days of the "Telephone" as a useful tool are over with IMO.   In my younger years I didn't have a phone and I'm ready to go back to not having one.

[5065AGuru]

I wish there was a way to charge callers say 10 cents to call me. That would cut down on spam calls!

Cheers,

Corby

[mendip_discovery]

    2)  NEVER, EVER, EVER give your phone number to your doctor's office or any other business.  Take my word for it, they ALL sell their data to other companies (quaintly referred to as their "business associates") and your data will spread like wildfire.

We have laws here in the UK that prevent that but sadly too many big firms leak data all the time. I don't like having to give my mobile over for 2FA as that is just another way for scammers to get my mobile.

We also have a system that makes it illegal for businesses to do unsolicited calls. You go on a register and any UK firm found to be flaunting this gets a hefty fine. Sadly some uk scan firms setup work and close before the government bodies can get a case against them. Often this is for loft insulation scams.

I guess the root of the problem is the internationally way we work these days. It's possible to buy a country based number and use it from a VOIP system in another country. The phone companies don't seem to be interested in putting in checks to prevent this abuse, but that would affect profit.

The scary ones are when I get a call from local number (10mile radius) as it maybe family on a borrowed landline. I would like to know how the scammers know where my phone is so they can target with a local number. I know this happens as I have worked away before and got a call from a local number to that area, an area in have only been in for less than 24hrs.

[m k]

For local numbers,
they can have a scanner but that is not practical, even that big city tower can receive quite many numbers.

Probably their guess of your location is from wider data mining operation.
It can finally be also just a lucky guess, you're just giving it unnecessary strength.

[Kasper]

Telus has 'call control', it works very well.

With Call Control on, when a caller phones you for the first time, they’ll be prompted to enter a number on their keypad. If they enter it successfully, the call will go through to you and they won’t be prompted again (as long as they’re one of your 25 most recent callers).
[...]
You can add phone numbers to your Accepted list to avoid having them screened when they try to reach you.
[...]
If you don’t want to receive calls from certain numbers at all, you can put them on your Blocked list.

You can also see a list of who tried and failed to get through.

I recently got a business line.  Before I did anything with it, I got lots of robo calls.  Exchanged for a different number a few times to no avail before giving up. 

[EPAIII]

Reading this thread has given me some insight into my own present position. I am a dinosaur. I have both a cell phone and a land line. The cell phone is with Pure Talk, a discount carrier, and the land line with AT&T, bundled with my internet and TV. So I don't pay a lot for either of them or for both together.

I give out the land line to everyone who wants my phone number and that number gets dozens of scammer calls every day. If I don't recognize the caller ID, I just don't answer. Only big problem is clearing out the "missed calls" on my desk phone every day or two. I use that phone for my answering machine so I can get messages but, as someone said above, scammers do not leave messages. So that's no problem.

My cell number is only given to family and friends. I get almost no scam calls on it. And I like it that way. Since it is in the same area code as my land line, I guess that argues against the scammers just calling every number. No, I think they are buying lists.

I guess I just stumbled into this system, but it seems to work for me. Who says that land lines are no longer useful? Mine seems to be doing a great job.

[m k]

Area code, completely overlooked that and assumed the rest.

Here mobile phones have never had area codes, first it was a service provider thing, now it's floating.
At the beginning the whole country had a single code, analog NMT time.

So when USA had area codes we had double zeros and country codes.
Or first long distance indicator here was 9, possibly other 9 for internationals, dial phones so no other signs.

An anecdote, here some still have their original mobile numbers, the number part being 4 or 5 digits.
Cost is also a bit different.

Other anecdote, my number has 7 digits where last 6 are the old landline.
Last 6 must read 3+3 or I can't recognize it.

[Whales]

CID is very easy to spoof in Australia.  One of my providers has a (very thin) protection against this: you have to receive a call to the number (with a robot reading out a verif code) before you can claim it as one of your CIDs, but after that you can use it on anything you want.  Another provider I once dealt with was a bit more cautious, but after I explained to them how this other provider did it they said "ok sure we can do it too then".

Fun fact: I've never gotten a single scam or robo call on my desk phone (NSW 02 number, ~3 years or so) or my SMS-to-email gateway mobile phone (~1year).  Somehow I've ended up very lucky.  Maybe it's because I also turn them off regularly?  Not sure.

[exuvo]

I used to get spam calls from many countries but never my own. I now use NoPhoneSpam on android to block every country that is not the one i live in.
You can get it on f-droid or https://gitlab.com/bitfireAT/NoPhoneSpam/ if you want to compile it yourself.
Set the mode to "allow calls only from this list" then add 0* entry for in-country calls (i assume this is a standard?) and +YourCountryCodeHere*. To allow some countries add entries ex +34* for spain.

It also has a setting to allow calls only from contacts but i have not tried that mode.

[andy2000]

Something does need to be done about scam/spam calls, but the worst phone problem I ever had when when my number got on a debt collection list.  They would often call several times a day looking for some lady I had never heard of.  I'd always tell them that they had the wrong number, and to put me on their "do not call list".  That would usually stop it for a while, but it would always start up again eventually (presumably after the file got sold onto some other company).  I ended up having to change my phone number to make it stop.

[SiliconWizard]

I rarely give my phone number to web sites and stuff like that.... except for shipping, carriers often need a phone number.
I've also been getting increasing spam calls. Given who is suppoed to have my number, I can only assume that either carriers or the companies I've given my phone # for shipping reasons to have either sold, or at least leaked, my number.

I suspect a good fraction of these calls also actually come from your phone provider itself, either directly or sold to thid parties. While they should be the ones to protect your number at all costs IMO.
Fuckers.

My current mobile phone has a pretty good detection for suspected spam calls though, it puts them in spam 99% of the time with no false positive so far. But the way it works, it flags suspected spam calls (and SMS), but does not block them (for obvious reasons, it could be wrong), so you still receive them. You can blacklist phone numbers though, but spam calls keep rotating the originating number anyway, so it's a lost cause.

It's gotten so bad that a law has been passed lately for this - so far I'm not sure if it's purely national or on a EU level, I'll have to check. Basically it makes it illegal for companies to make unsollicited calls... not altogether, but just at certain hours (basically evening and night.) What it will trigger is 1/ unsollicited commercial calls will probably increase rather than decrease, but during work hours - yay, and 2/ spam will keep happening at all hours from companies/people that don't care about doing something illegal.

[schmitt trigger]

The length of time it took me to read this thread, I actually received a couple of scam calls. Scary!

And no. I didn’t answer.

[thm_w]

Another useful feature would be to only accept calls from those in my contacts, but again, not a feature that's available in the native phone application.

Exists natively on iPhone.

That's all well and good but I don't use Apple devices, mostly because they don't do what I want them to.

Lots of third party apps or options, one was mentioned above by exuvo.
This page has some more options: https://www.alphr.com/only-allow-calls-contact-android/

[m k]

We have a national election next Sunday, no calls.
One more plus for multi party system.

[Black Phoenix]

I live in China, and phone numbers being caught in scam/advertising lists is as easy as you buying a SIM card and doing his registration, to the point that as soon you go to Hong Kong you even receive calls as soon you arrive there (happen to me 2 weeks ago) since all mobile operators sell their lists of numbers.

Operators have predefined lists who change the name of the caller on your phone for delivery services, police and government numbers automatically and you even receive system messaged popups in your phone saying that the number is recognised as spam or international, so care must be taken.

My rule of thumb is simple. If it is not on my contacts list, or I'm waiting for a delivery I don't answer any phone. If it is government or police they will call you again in less than 10 min (or even more times until you answer the call). Other than that I don't answer any phone call.

[gnuarm]

I'm honestly just sick of the interruptions. I don't have time for this shit. Maybe sending everything to voicemail initially might be the way to go. Scammers almost never bother to leave a message, particularly as a lot of those scam call centres don't accept incoming calls.

I have an Android and there is some sort of anti-spamming going on by Google.  I'm not sure it actually blocks the call though.  I think it just sends them to voicemail.  I will get a notification that a voicemail was left, but the phone never rang.  This is only slightly better than the phone ringing.  It's still a disruption.  I still have to check the voicemail to see if it was something I need to respond to.

I used to answer every spam call, with the intent of taking up their time.  Sometimes this was rewarding, with the spammer cussing me out.  Once, when I was getting a lot of calls offering me a low interest rate on my credit card or low prices on medications, a spammer was trying to sell me prescription medicines and I interrupted by asking him if he'd like to get a lower interest rate on his credit card.  I actually got him to give me his credit card number and date!  What a fool! 

Who says you can't scam a scammer?

But I'm at the point where I'm giving up trying to fight them.  I don't think they "buy" phone numbers.  They mostly call me from area codes and exchanges that match mine.  One guy called me about my credit card and I let him think I was an old guy, somewhat feeble minded, and put the phone on mute while I "went to get my card".  He hung up and called back.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  All three calls were from different numbers, but the same area code and exchange as mine.  I think they just make up numbers.  No need to buy them when you can spoof them.

[gnuarm]

It's baffling how difficult it is in modern times to contact a stranger, for example if you have something business-related. You can't call because telephone system have been terrorized dead, you can't email because of exact same reason. Basically it's back to snail mail or personally visiting.

You read your mail? 

[gnuarm]

Keen to hear how others manage these nuisance callers.

   1) NEVER answer a call unless you KNOW exactly who it is. If you do answer a call from a SCAMMER, you'll go right back to the top of not only their call list but also all of the list of all of the other SCAMMERS.

How do they know if you answer, or your phone does?  I get so many 5 second voicemails with no message, that I don't take the time to clear them off anymore.  It's dozens a day!

    2)  NEVER, EVER, EVER give your phone number to your doctor's office or any other business.  Take my word for it, they ALL sell their data to other companies (quaintly referred to as their "business associates") and your data will spread like wildfire.

That's a bit hard to do. 

    3) Block the phone number of EVERY unknown caller that you get a call from. (You can later unblock the number if it turns out that the call was legitimate.)  Tele SCAMMERS do change their phone numbers periodically but after a time they seem to reuse their old numbers again.  So if you block them after the first call, you'll never be bothered again.

Blocking numbers is pointless.  They don't have numbers they use.  The number that appears on your phone is spoofed.

    4)  Re-read rule #2!   I don't care what excuses or reasons they offer, do NOT give them your phone number or you will be on everyone's call list.

Some obviously do call random numbers using a bot.  Sometimes it's hard to get past the bot.  They don't want you wasting their time!

 

  Over the last 20 or so years I've tried every combination and technique but the rules above are the only thing that has worked.

      I was particularly upset to find that at least two of my Dr's offices were "sharing" my information, in direct violation of the Hippa Act.

HIPAA only applies to your medical information.  A phone number is not medical. 

[gnuarm]

I wish there was a way to charge callers say 10 cents to call me. That would cut down on spam calls!

Cheers,

Corby

Get a 900 area code or a 976 exchange number. 

[gnuarm]

We have a national election next Sunday, no calls.
One more plus for multi party system.

In the US, the politicians are exempt from the no-spam laws.  LOL

[Jeff eelcr]

I received 0 calls today from any scam callers.
This is much better than the 30+ calls of most days.
I have tried many things but last 3 days I did not pick
up any call if I did not know the number calling.
Jeff 

[Halcyon]

I'm wondering if this particular scam call centre has finally removed my number from their rotation. It's gone from at least 1 call per day, to practically zero in the space of a few weeks.

Maybe they finally got the hint that there is no human at the other end of my number to try and scam.

[james_s]

That's all well and good but I don't use Apple devices, mostly because they don't do what I want them to.

Apparently neither does the device you do use, although I'd be surprised if there was not a way to configure it to do that.

I've had my iPhone set to only ring on numbers that are in my contact list for years, it's great, it's such a basic feature I assumed every phone had it. Unknown numbers silently show a banner on the screen and go to voicemail.

[Halcyon]

That's all well and good but I don't use Apple devices, mostly because they don't do what I want them to.

Apparently neither does the device you do use, although I'd be surprised if there was not a way to configure it to do that.

I've had my iPhone set to only ring on numbers that are in my contact list for years, it's great, it's such a basic feature I assumed every phone had it. Unknown numbers silently show a banner on the screen and go to voicemail.

Switching to Apple would solve that one problem, but introduce others, it's not worth changing my entire workflow just for that. There are third party tools which will do the job, however I don't want to install yet another application. I have put in a feature request to Google, it seems like a pretty easy to implement feature, so we'll see how it goes.

As I mentioned, I'm considering sending all calls to voicemail anyway. My phone does not stop all day so I do need to find a way to deal with interruptions. Friends and family call me via Signal anyway so actual important people know how to reach me directly.

[gnuarm]

I'm wondering if this particular scam call centre has finally removed my number from their rotation. It's gone from at least 1 call per day, to practically zero in the space of a few weeks.

Maybe they finally got the hint that there is no human at the other end of my number to try and scam.

1 call a day is a misdial.  I would love to get my spam calls down to 1 call a day.

[gnuarm]

That's all well and good but I don't use Apple devices, mostly because they don't do what I want them to.

Apparently neither does the device you do use, although I'd be surprised if there was not a way to configure it to do that.

I've had my iPhone set to only ring on numbers that are in my contact list for years, it's great, it's such a basic feature I assumed every phone had it. Unknown numbers silently show a banner on the screen and go to voicemail.

Switching to Apple would solve that one problem, but introduce others, it's not worth changing my entire workflow just for that. There are third party tools which will do the job, however I don't want to install yet another application. I have put in a feature request to Google, it seems like a pretty easy to implement feature, so we'll see how it goes.

As I mentioned, I'm considering sending all calls to voicemail anyway. My phone does not stop all day so I do need to find a way to deal with interruptions. Friends and family call me via Signal anyway so actual important people know how to reach me directly.

Not sure how that would help.  I can easily screen the calls with caller ID.  Anyone who isn't in my directory and is in the local area code is ignored.  But they always end up leaving a voicemail which I have to at least check.  I've given up and have literally hundreds of messages I'll never listen to.  Some might be people I know.

Lately, I've taken to answering, but immediately hanging up.

[paul@yahrprobert.com]

My VOIP provider (Magicjack) has a call screening service that answers the phone and says "This call is being automatically screened. Please press 4 to connect" where the number is random.  It works great. I've gone from about 6 calls a day to zero.  The robots aren't smart enough and the foreign  agents must not connect quickly enough.
  I think you can buy a box for $20 which will do a similar thing.

[gnuarm]

My VOIP provider (Magicjack) has a call screening service that answers the phone and says "This call is being automatically screened. Please press 4 to connect" where the number is random.  It works great. I've gone from about 6 calls a day to zero.  The robots aren't smart enough and the foreign  agents must not connect quickly enough.
  I think you can buy a box for $20 which will do a similar thing.

And install it where?  I haven't had a land line in 20 years.  I would love to have such a device.  But, if they become widespread, they would be easy for the scammers to get past.  They already use voice recognition. 

I sometimes answer the scammers calls to see how much of their time I can waste before they hang up on me.  I have to first answer questions a bot asks.  It verifies my age and other questions.  Then I am passed to a low cost human, the typical boiler room people with foreign accents.  They ask mostly the same questions.  I don't know exactly what they are looking for, but often, I get hung up on.  If I play the game well enough I am asked to give permission for a call back from a "licensed agent", "even if your number is on a do-not-call list...".  That, I am not going to do.  I'm sure it would put my number on a list that gets called even more frequently. 

The point is, they are smart enough to know what is working and what isn't.  They change, adapt and find better ways of getting what they want.  Your "box" solution only works, because not many people use it.  They could build this feature into cell phones, easily.  Once they do that, the scammers will use their bots to listen to what is being said so it can push the right button and the feature will no longer work. 

[Kjelt]

Keen to hear how others manage these nuisance callers.

Got this from another guy, sounds a decent approach:

If I don't recognize the number I pick up with only "Hello?"
If it is a salesperson or anything I did not ask for, I say things like :
" You are calling a company business number, please hang up"

Sometimes just for fun
"You have called  the biological wildfire emergency number, you know it is a federal crime  to call this number without emergency? Please provide your name, jobfunction and company for my report"

Quickly ends this shit.

[gnuarm]

Keen to hear how others manage these nuisance callers.

Got this from another guy, sounds a decent approach:

If I don't recognize the number I pick up with only "Hello?"
If it is a salesperson or anything I did not ask for, I say things like :
" You are calling a company business number, please hang up"

Sometimes just for fun
"You have called  the biological wildfire emergency number, you know it is a federal crime  to call this number without emergency? Please provide your name, jobfunction and company for my report"

Quickly ends this shit.

So you get calls from actual humans?  I wish I were so lucky.

[Kjelt]

Oh yes only humans, who do you get then, chatgtp ?

[TimFox]

Some of my useless phone calls are from humans, but rarely from the area code that appears on CallerID.

[gnuarm]

Oh yes only humans, who do you get then, chatgtp ?

I've already described the voice recognition bots I typically get.  But here it is again.  The bot greets me politely and asks how I am.  If I say "hello" again, they typically ask if I can hear them.  Anything else and the bot moves on to the self-introduction and purpose.  It verifies my age usually (lots of calls are medical or insurance related), name and city, state.  Then it asks me to stand by while it transfers me to an agent who will verify my information.

That is now a person, in a boiler room, with lots of other voices in the background.  They ask the same questions.  When they are ready to transfer me, they ask me to listed to a reading of an agreement that gives them permission to call me in the future regardless of being on a do-not-call list.  I explain I am on a do-not-call list.  That's when they hang up.

[gnuarm]

Some of my useless phone calls are from humans, but rarely from the area code that appears on CallerID.

The caller id phone numbers are typically spoofed.  They are calling from Indian boiler rooms and can make any number appear that they wish.  I have found they try to look like a local call, with the same area code and often the same or other local exchange. 

This is why blocking phone numbers is pointless.

[NiHaoMike]

Some of my useless phone calls are from humans...

Then you can use the trick of blasting unpleasant noises at them. The smoke alarm idea I mentioned earlier is an easy way. Probably the best, if you have a rooted phone, is to send a bit sequence that decodes into the loudest noise possible.

[Halcyon]

Well I've trialed it for the past week or so. All calls go straight to voicemail. No notifications (unless they actually leave a message). It's been such a peaceful week.
My announcement is along the lines of "All calls to this number are screened for privacy. Please leave a message with a return phone number, or use an alternate contact method."
Scammers/bots just hang up at that point. Never have I had a scammer leave me a voice message (mainly because they don't have a direct in-dial number to call them back on). The carriers here (particularly Telstra) are pretty good at filtering spam SMS, I can't remember the last time I received one of those.

My friends and family just call me via Signal so I still get all the truly important calls. Government agencies and other services (gas, electricity, phone etc...) just email me anyway, so I'm not missing out there.

So far, it's a winner. My ideal option would be to simply divert all numbers other than the ones in my contacts list to voicemail, but the built-in Android phone application is yet to include that function.

I think I might keep it this way for the next month or so and re-evaluate then. So far, so good.

[themadhippy]

hows about making the defualt ring tone silent ,not the phone set to silent but a custom audio file of silence, and allocate an actual  ring tone to your contacts

[Halcyon]

hows about making the defualt ring tone silent ,not the phone set to silent but a custom audio file of silence, and allocate an actual  ring tone to your contacts

Because the phone still vibrates/lights up and is still a distraction. Or, if I don't pick up, I then have to go through the list of calls I've missed. I have better things to do with my time than play "guess who called me".

At the end of the day, those who are close to me know how to reach me via alternate means, SMS still works as normal (if you aren't a spammer), all my various suppliers I deal with usually leave a message and/or contact me via email.

I've resigned to the fact that old school, unencrypted, unverified (in terms of origin) voice calls are dead. They may as well go in the same pile as the analog telephone system.

[EPAIII]

It is my observation that computers are actually making the calls and providing the initial message that announces what they are selling.

Only when an answer (human or your answering machine recorded announcement) is detected, does that recorded message stop and, after a delay, does a human comes on the line.

What this means is it is easy for them to call every number in every exchange. No human time is involved in doing that.

I am still trying to figure out what those computers do with each of the ways those calls end. Do they make call later lists? Or don't call again lists? Or LIVE ONE, call, call, CALL until hell freezes over lists? I don't know.

I do know that if I had a penny for every call I have received about Medicare Advantage Plans, I would be a billionaire!

[gnuarm]

It is my observation that computers are actually making the calls and providing the initial message that announces what they are selling.

Only when an answer (human or your answering machine recorded announcement) is detected, does that recorded message stop and, after a delay, does a human comes on the line.

The calls I get are from a bot, which interacts with me some, asking for age, name, etc. which then transfers me to a human, who asks the same questions.

The odd part is, they often just hang up on me, for no apparent reason.  Odd.  My goal, is to reach the guy who makes real money and waste his time.  But that person may not exist.  The purpose of the call might be to simply verify a real person exists at this number.  Many of the calls want me to authorize them to call me back, in spite off being on any do-not-call lists.  Not doing that.  It probably opens me up to many, many more calls that are legal at that point.

What this means is it is easy for them to call every number in every exchange. No human time is involved in doing that.

Bingo!  Just machine time which is nearly free.

I am still trying to figure out what those computers do with each of the ways those calls end. Do they make call later lists? Or don't call again lists? Or LIVE ONE, call, call, CALL until hell freezes over lists? I don't know.

I do know that if I had a penny for every call I have received about Medicare Advantage Plans, I would be a billionaire!

I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as a don't call again list.  When i  don't have time to fool with them, I answer and immediately hang up.  My brother says that means they call back, but how is that really different from an answering machine to them?  A friend has his machine set with no outgoing message.  They seem to pick up on a human voice, but like I've said, you need to provide at least passable answers to their questions, or the bot hangs up on you.

[ataradov]

There must be some law/enforcement kicked in, I have not gotten a single spam call since Jun 1st. Or me ignoring them all finally worked.

[VK3DRB]

I got rid of most of the Indian scammers by getting rid of my landline number. Now, only rarely do they call me on my mobile, and when they do I stir them if I have time for some entertainment.

On one occasion, the scammer wanted to speak to my wife. I told him he can't because I murdered her ten years ago, after I caught her on the phone trying to scam money from my aunt, and I only got out of prison recently. After that the number of calls noticeable decreased.

The Microsoft help desk is a good one. Tell them "I am using the very latest version genuine, and I mean GENUINE, copy of Microsoft DOS. Now, what do you want me to do?" The imbeciles get totally confused because don't know what DOS is, but still try to help you find the start button.

Once I preached the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to the scammer and he came clean with a full confession, admitting he was a scammer and a thief and will go and read the this book called the Bible he heard about.

As for spoofed calls, I get them occasionally. I think the laws around the world have to come heavy on scammers. And I mean heavy, like life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, with 10 hours per day installing Windows 95 diskette version on an old PC continuously in return for food .

[Dundarave]

I subscribe to a free TELUS phone landline service (in Canada) called “Call Control”, which forces any calls that are not in your “permit” list to have to push a random number between 1 and 9 before it will allow the call to ring the phone.  The system advises callers that they first have to press a certain digit in order for the call to go through.  Since most crap calls use auto-diallers and only connect when they hear a voice that is saying “hello?… hello?…” they never hear the instructions, or the selected digit they have to press, and have no clue what to do, so they just hang up.  My phone never even rings. It’s an excellent solution, and works great.

It has permanently cut our crap calls to zero.  And it’s free, and easily managed via the TELUS consumer app. 

[Halcyon]

I'm honestly at the stage where I don't care if I'm completely unreachable via phone.

    X2.  This is where I'm at too.  My family and friend's know how to find me.  Everyone else can FO. It's not worth being interrupted 10 to 20 times PER DAY to get one legitimate call.

    Thanks to the telemarketers, pollsters, political calls, charity hoaxs and other SCAMMERS and the inaction of the phone companies, the days of the "Telephone" as a useful tool are over with IMO.   In my younger years I didn't have a phone and I'm ready to go back to not having one.

I've had my phone diverted to voicemail 99% of the time. I undiverted it for 4 hours today (as I was expecting another call), only to have a recruiter call me out of the blue.

Over the last few months, it's been peaceful. No interruptions. No one has contacted me to say "I can't call you", which means no one important has tried to call me.

I'm keeping it like this. As far as I'm concerned, "analog" calls to my phone number are obsolete. Telcos need to step up and start treating phone numbers like any other method of communication. The owner of the number should be able to blacklist/whitelist numbers as they see fit at the network level (not via some app on their phone).

[gnuarm]

I'm honestly at the stage where I don't care if I'm completely unreachable via phone.

    X2.  This is where I'm at too.  My family and friend's know how to find me.  Everyone else can FO. It's not worth being interrupted 10 to 20 times PER DAY to get one legitimate call.

    Thanks to the telemarketers, pollsters, political calls, charity hoaxs and other SCAMMERS and the inaction of the phone companies, the days of the "Telephone" as a useful tool are over with IMO.   In my younger years I didn't have a phone and I'm ready to go back to not having one.

I've had my phone diverted to voicemail 99% of the time. I undiverted it for 4 hours today (as I was expecting another call), only to have a recruiter call me out of the blue.

Over the last few months, it's been peaceful. No interruptions. No one has contacted me to say "I can't call you", which means no one important has tried to call me.

I'm keeping it like this. As far as I'm concerned, "analog" calls to my phone number are obsolete. Telcos need to step up and start treating phone numbers like any other method of communication. The owner of the number should be able to blacklist/whitelist numbers as they see fit at the network level (not via some app on their phone).

Blacklist/whitelist does little.  If you don't mind preventing all calls from new numbers, then a whitelist will let you limit calls to people you know. 

One thing that will work is a screening app that requires a user to press buttons.  But spammers can get around that by using voice recognition software.  They already do that now.  It's very, very seldom when I answer the phone that I'm talking to a human.  It's virtually always a bot that asks me some questions to make sure I'm not a recording.  Only then do I get a human. 

I know people who literally never answer their phones because of the huge number of spam calls.  Even people with land lines.  It also destroys the utility of voice mail.  I gave up using mine.  I probably have nearly a thousand voice mail since I quit scanning and deleting them.

[tom66]

I think a simple way to stop spam callers would be every VOIP call that lasts under 1 minute costs ~$0.50 to place.  This could be enforced by telecoms companies charging VOIP firms this amount.  Dunno if I'm a hopeless optimist but I can recognise spam calls very quickly.  Would also handle irrelevant telemarketing nicely.

[Bud]

Same idea was proposed by Microsoft on email spam, of course Microsoft would own the email servers 
There was huge outcry from the Public and the proposal was scrapped. That was somewhere around end of 1990's

[gnuarm]

I think a simple way to stop spam callers would be every VOIP call that lasts under 1 minute costs ~$0.50 to place.  This could be enforced by telecoms companies charging VOIP firms this amount.  Dunno if I'm a hopeless optimist but I can recognise spam calls very quickly.  Would also handle irrelevant telemarketing nicely.

It doesn't even require $0.50 per call.  $0.001 per call would bankrupt the spammers.  The vast majority of calls reach voicemail.  Those that reach a person are typically hung up as soon as the person hears the bot.  I expect the successful completion of connecting two humans on a spam call is around 1 in 1,000.  I have no idea what their success rate is of getting any money from people, but I don't think that's so important.

The problem is, such tariffs are international.  I don't know how the agreements are made, but I doubt such fees could be pushed back to the callers.  They are working through fly by night companies who connect their VOIP to the phone infrastructure.  They just fold up periodically and start anew. 

[tom66]

I think a simple way to stop spam callers would be every VOIP call that lasts under 1 minute costs ~$0.50 to place.  This could be enforced by telecoms companies charging VOIP firms this amount.  Dunno if I'm a hopeless optimist but I can recognise spam calls very quickly.  Would also handle irrelevant telemarketing nicely.

It doesn't even require $0.50 per call.  $0.001 per call would bankrupt the spammers.  The vast majority of calls reach voicemail.  Those that reach a person are typically hung up as soon as the person hears the bot.  I expect the successful completion of connecting two humans on a spam call is around 1 in 1,000.  I have no idea what their success rate is of getting any money from people, but I don't think that's so important.

The problem is, such tariffs are international.  I don't know how the agreements are made, but I doubt such fees could be pushed back to the callers.  They are working through fly by night companies who connect their VOIP to the phone infrastructure.  They just fold up periodically and start anew.

It does need to be non-negligible, because the telemarketers / scammers in India are getting $1 per hour or thereabouts (average wage is $200 per month). So if you make the short calls they have to handle - the ones they get quite often - they are suddenly paying $10-20 an hour for these calls. Makes the whole thing impractical.

As for how the costs get passed on, the telecom company in the US charges the VoIP firm. No payment, no call.  The fee will eventually get pushed back down the chain, or the calls get blocked, either way it's a win.

[Gyro]

I've had a persistent recorded message spam caller for a while, although the frequency seems to be finally decreasing. I just let it go to voicemail and then block each new number. The irritating thing is that the recorded message is in Chinese. If you must spam me, ffs have the brains to check the country code and do it in a language that I can understand! 

[gnuarm]

I think a simple way to stop spam callers would be every VOIP call that lasts under 1 minute costs ~$0.50 to place.  This could be enforced by telecoms companies charging VOIP firms this amount.  Dunno if I'm a hopeless optimist but I can recognise spam calls very quickly.  Would also handle irrelevant telemarketing nicely.

It doesn't even require $0.50 per call.  $0.001 per call would bankrupt the spammers.  The vast majority of calls reach voicemail.  Those that reach a person are typically hung up as soon as the person hears the bot.  I expect the successful completion of connecting two humans on a spam call is around 1 in 1,000.  I have no idea what their success rate is of getting any money from people, but I don't think that's so important.

The problem is, such tariffs are international.  I don't know how the agreements are made, but I doubt such fees could be pushed back to the callers.  They are working through fly by night companies who connect their VOIP to the phone infrastructure.  They just fold up periodically and start anew.

It does need to be non-negligible, because the telemarketers / scammers in India are getting $1 per hour or thereabouts (average wage is $200 per month). So if you make the short calls they have to handle - the ones they get quite often - they are suddenly paying $10-20 an hour for these calls. Makes the whole thing impractical.

As for how the costs get passed on, the telecom company in the US charges the VoIP firm. No payment, no call.  The fee will eventually get pushed back down the chain, or the calls get blocked, either way it's a win.

It doesn't work that way.  Just like boiler rooms can spring up overnight, these VOIP routing companies spring up overnight and operate until they have to pay a bill or two.  The payments are not made in real time.

[gnuarm]

I've had a persistent recorded message spam caller for a while, although the frequency seems to be finally decreasing. I just let it go to voicemail and then block each new number. The irritating thing is that the recorded message is in Chinese. If you must spam me, ffs have the brains to check the country code and do it in a language that I can understand! 

Blocking numbers is totally pointless.  The spammers make up numbers, often to look like it is a local call.  I had one very gullible guy call me, where I jerked him around by putting the phone down to "get my credit card".  Eventually I hung up.  He called back, lather, rinse, repeat.  Every call was on a different local number.  I should say "local", because my cell phone has a number from a different state!

It's a rare spammer that uses a real phone number he got from the "phone company". 

[TimFox]

I've had a persistent recorded message spam caller for a while, although the frequency seems to be finally decreasing. I just let it go to voicemail and then block each new number. The irritating thing is that the recorded message is in Chinese. If you must spam me, ffs have the brains to check the country code and do it in a language that I can understand! 

Blocking numbers is totally pointless.  The spammers make up numbers, often to look like it is a local call.  I had one very gullible guy call me, where I jerked him around by putting the phone down to "get my credit card".  Eventually I hung up.  He called back, lather, rinse, repeat.  Every call was on a different local number.  I should say "local", because my cell phone has a number from a different state!

It's a rare spammer that uses a real phone number he got from the "phone company".

I don't understand why "spoofing" a phone number is legal in the US.
I found vendors online who will facilitate this spoofing openly, allegedly for the benefit of partners in abusive relationships who don't want to use their real numbers when reporting the abuse to the authorities, but that seems to be a weak argument (although pay phones have vanished from modern society).
E.g., https://www.spoofcard.com/  who claim it is good for the spoofer's privacy.
Typically, sub-continental callers with conventional American given names spoof numbers in my area code and exchange, and when I ask them if they are located next door they hang up.
When I have nothing else to do, I call that number back only to get the non-existent number error message from the phone company;  rarely, it turns out to be an innocent bystander whose number was borrowed, but almost never an active number.

[ataradov]

There are cases where "spoofing" is necessary. For example big call center may want to present a single callback number. Obviously this could be allowed after proper documentation and no report of abuse.
 
But otherwise, this is legal because telcos are making a ton of money on this, and they don't want this to change. If you just start fining them for abuse, the situation would instantly change. But guess who is buying the people that can fine them?

[gnuarm]

I've had a persistent recorded message spam caller for a while, although the frequency seems to be finally decreasing. I just let it go to voicemail and then block each new number. The irritating thing is that the recorded message is in Chinese. If you must spam me, ffs have the brains to check the country code and do it in a language that I can understand! 

Blocking numbers is totally pointless.  The spammers make up numbers, often to look like it is a local call.  I had one very gullible guy call me, where I jerked him around by putting the phone down to "get my credit card".  Eventually I hung up.  He called back, lather, rinse, repeat.  Every call was on a different local number.  I should say "local", because my cell phone has a number from a different state!

It's a rare spammer that uses a real phone number he got from the "phone company".

I don't understand why "spoofing" a phone number is legal in the US.

What does the US have to do with it?  Do you think any of these people are in the US???  Nearly everyone I hear from has an Indian accent so thick, I can barely tell what scam they are trying to run.

I found vendors online who will facilitate this spoofing openly, allegedly for the benefit of partners in abusive relationships who don't want to use their real numbers when reporting the abuse to the authorities, but that seems to be a weak argument (although pay phones have vanished from modern society).
E.g., https://www.spoofcard.com/  who claim it is good for the spoofer's privacy.
Typically, sub-continental callers with conventional American given names spoof numbers in my area code and exchange, and when I ask them if they are located next door they hang up.
When I have nothing else to do, I call that number back only to get the non-existent number error message from the phone company;  rarely, it turns out to be an innocent bystander whose number was borrowed, but almost never an active number.

How many phone numbers do you think are actually in service in a given area code?  I expect the numbers are picked with YOUR area code, an exchange that is LOCAL to YOU and a random last four digits. 

I do get some calls from numbers that are only generally in the same area (100 mile radius), but not often. 

Here's a funny anecdote.  At one time the scams were all either looking to sell you ED drugs, or something else I can't recall.  One of the latter called me when I was at a friend's house.  He was running his scam and I was tired of playing along only to get him pissed off and hang up.  So instead, I asked him if he wanted to buy drugs.  I got him to give me 12 of his 16 digit credit card number before I burst out laughing!  He was so pissed! 

[TimFox]

An exchange should have 10,000 numbers with four digits.
I don't know the fraction in use at any time, but the phone companies have added additional area codes over the years to cover the explosive growth of cell phones.
Chicago and suburbs used to be in area code 312.
Then they restricted 312 to the center of the city, and added 773 for the rest of the city and 708 for the suburbs.
Later, they split 708 into non-overlapping 708, 847, and 630.
After that, they added "overlay" codes and I have lost track.

[Halcyon]

I don't know the technical details of how number spoofing works/is prevented, but I've never seen a spoofed number appear on my carriers network (Telstra). Whatever controls they have in-place seem to be working. I can't speak of the other carriers though, as I've never used them.

All of the spam/scam calls I receive are usually from the same block of numbers, which are obviously VoIP services connected to the normal telco network, so the numbers are real, they just have incoming call restrictions enabled so you can't call them back.

Some legitimate companies route all their outbound calls so they appear to come from their main number, which is fine. The way the trunk is set up means they can only "spoof" that number that belongs to them and no one else as it's done at the network level.

SMS spoofing is entirely different but it's something the carriers are working on. Like CID spoofing, I've never seen a spoofed SMS on Telstra's network. Maybe it's something that plagues the cheaper MVNOs? I don't know for certain. There seems to be new rules surrounding this for anyone who wants a read: https://www.commsalliance.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/72150/C661_2022.pdf

[gnuarm]

I don't know the technical details of how number spoofing works/is prevented, but I've never seen a spoofed number appear on my carriers network (Telstra). Whatever controls they have in-place seem to be working. I can't speak of the other carriers though, as I've never used them.

How do you know the number is spoofed or not?  Do you ever get calls from someone with a thick Indian accent, offering you insurance for "final expenses"?  Actually, that's likely only for people of certain ages, so maybe not.  If you do, and it's not an overseas call, you've been spoofed.

All of the spam/scam calls I receive are usually from the same block of numbers, which are obviously VoIP services connected to the normal telco network, so the numbers are real, they just have incoming call restrictions enabled so you can't call them back.

How do you know any of this?  I think you are kidding yourself.

[Halcyon]

I don't know the technical details of how number spoofing works/is prevented, but I've never seen a spoofed number appear on my carriers network (Telstra). Whatever controls they have in-place seem to be working. I can't speak of the other carriers though, as I've never used them.

How do you know the number is spoofed or not?  Do you ever get calls from someone with a thick Indian accent, offering you insurance for "final expenses"?  Actually, that's likely only for people of certain ages, so maybe not.  If you do, and it's not an overseas call, you've been spoofed.

All of the spam/scam calls I receive are usually from the same block of numbers, which are obviously VoIP services connected to the normal telco network, so the numbers are real, they just have incoming call restrictions enabled so you can't call them back.

How do you know any of this?  I think you are kidding yourself.

It's easy to see whether a number is a VoIP service or not. There are plenty of lookup tools that give you information about a number, it's rough geographical location, etc...

Also, how do I know this? Simple, look at the number. 99% of the scam calls I've received originate from numbers in the +61 2 5119 2xxx, +61 2 725x xxxx and +61 2 9564 7xxx blocks of numbers. They aren't random nor are they spoofed numbers belonging to someone else, if they were, they'd be pretty bloody obvious.

Whether they have an Indian accent or not is irrelevant. You don't need to be in Australia to use an Australian VoIP service/number. There's this thing called the internet which allows you to use those services from anywhere in the world. For example, you yourself can jump on Skype right now and register your own telephone number in just about any country in the world.
https://support.skype.com/en/faq/FA269/in-which-countries-are-skype-numbers-available

So it's a little rude to suggest that I'm "kidding myself" with no basis.

[gnuarm]

I don't know the technical details of how number spoofing works/is prevented, but I've never seen a spoofed number appear on my carriers network (Telstra). Whatever controls they have in-place seem to be working. I can't speak of the other carriers though, as I've never used them.

How do you know the number is spoofed or not?  Do you ever get calls from someone with a thick Indian accent, offering you insurance for "final expenses"?  Actually, that's likely only for people of certain ages, so maybe not.  If you do, and it's not an overseas call, you've been spoofed.

All of the spam/scam calls I receive are usually from the same block of numbers, which are obviously VoIP services connected to the normal telco network, so the numbers are real, they just have incoming call restrictions enabled so you can't call them back.

How do you know any of this?  I think you are kidding yourself.

It's easy to see whether a number is a VoIP service or not. There are plenty of lookup tools that give you information about a number, it's rough geographical location, etc...

Also, how do I know this? Simple, look at the number. 99% of the scam calls I've received originate from numbers in the +61 2 5119 2xxx, +61 2 725x xxxx and +61 2 9564 7xxx blocks of numbers. They aren't random nor are they spoofed numbers belonging to someone else, if they were, they'd be pretty bloody obvious.

Whether they have an Indian accent or not is irrelevant. You don't need to be in Australia to use an Australian VoIP service/number. There's this thing called the internet which allows you to use those services from anywhere in the world. For example, you yourself can jump on Skype right now and register your own telephone number in just about any country in the world.
https://support.skype.com/en/faq/FA269/in-which-countries-are-skype-numbers-available

So it's a little rude to suggest that I'm "kidding myself" with no basis.

So you don't get spam calls from your own area code?  You are one in a thousand.   

But, I'm sorry that you understand so little of what I've said.  The phone number reported on your caller ID has nothing to do with where the call originates.

[Halcyon]

So you don't get spam calls from your own area code?  You are one in a thousand.   

But, I'm sorry that you understand so little of what I've said.  The phone number reported on your caller ID has nothing to do with where the call originates.

This is exactly what I said (read my last post).

It seems that you're the one who has little understanding. Let me enlighten you. Australia doesn't use "area codes" in the traditional sense. Those were largely abolished a long time ago when we went to 8-digit telephone numbers (10 if you include the state (or STD) code). The first two digits in a fixed line phone number designates the state (02 is New South Wales and ACT for example). This "area code" (if you like) is optional when you're dialling within your own state. Whether it's a VoIP service or a landline phone, the equipment is present in that state and connects to an exchange there (with some exceptions for border towns). To give you some understanding of how big an area we're talking about, the state of New South Wales (where I live) covers an area of over 800,000 square kilometers. Travelling from the east-most point to the west-most point is over 1000 kilometers.

In some cases, the first (and sometimes the second) digit of the phone number itself might loosely define a more narrower geographic area (like a council area or a county) but that's more of a throw-back from the old days. It's not a reliable method of determining where a call is coming from anymore.

Mobile numbers always start with 04; Landlines never do.

If you take the numbers I gave in my example, they loosely align to numbers based in Sydney but they could be anywhere else in the state. "Sydney" could be a few kilometers down the road, or 100 kilometers away.

So no, I don't get spam calls from my own area code since they don't really exist anymore. In fact, some scam calls I've received in the past are from another block of VoIP numbers based in entirely different states.

The only reason scammers use VoIP services based in Australia (and other countries) is so they appear "more legitimate" compared to say, an international number originating from India, or a blocked number with no caller ID. Most people would simply not answer those calls are they are out of the ordinary (and expensive for the scammers to place the call). Scammers are actually buying/leasing these services as they are relatively cheap, they don't spoof them (not here anyway). Some scammers will even go as far as operating "pop up" call centres physically in the country, I have seen this myself.

As I mentioned before, telcos are taking action against caller-ID spoofing and whilst I don't know the in-depth technical details about the mechanisms, I would say it's largely impossible to do on today's infrastructure (at least, without the telco's cooperation). How telephone networks operate outside of Australia, I don't know.

SMS spoofing is an entirely different topic. That does happen, at least on some networks.

[gnuarm]

So you don't get spam calls from your own area code?  You are one in a thousand.   

But, I'm sorry that you understand so little of what I've said.  The phone number reported on your caller ID has nothing to do with where the call originates.

This is exactly what I said (read my last post).

Did you not write this?

Simple, look at the number. 99% of the scam calls I've received originate from numbers in the +61 2 5119 2xxx, +61 2 725x xxxx and +61 2 9564 7xxx blocks of numbers.

When I say the calling number is meaningless, why do you counter by telling me how meaningful the calling number is?  I'm very confused.

It seems that you're the one who has little understanding. Let me enlighten you. Australia doesn't use "area codes" in the traditional sense. Those were largely abolished a long time ago when we went to 8-digit telephone numbers (10 if you include the state (or STD) code). The first two digits in a fixed line phone number designates the state (02 is New South Wales and ACT for example). This "area code" (if you like) is optional when you're dialling within your own state. Whether it's a VoIP service or a landline phone, the equipment is present in that state and connects to an exchange there (with some exceptions for border towns). To give you some understanding of how big an area we're talking about, the state of New South Wales (where I live) covers an area of over 800,000 square kilometers. Travelling from the east-most point to the west-most point is over 1000 kilometers.

There's your problem.  The calls are from India.  Ultimately there is a connection to the land lines in Australia, but that's not the origin of the number reported by caller ID.  Unfortunately, this is a result of a world wide phone system. 

In some cases, the first (and sometimes the second) digit of the phone number itself might loosely define a more narrower geographic area (like a council area or a county) but that's more of a throw-back from the old days. It's not a reliable method of determining where a call is coming from anymore.

Mobile numbers always start with 04; Landlines never do.

If you take the numbers I gave in my example, they loosely align to numbers based in Sydney but they could be anywhere else in the state. "Sydney" could be a few kilometers down the road, or 100 kilometers away.

None of those numbers matter.  They were generated by the spammers in India.  Phone numbers don't work like IP addresses on the Internet. 

So no, I don't get spam calls from my own area code since they don't really exist anymore. In fact, some scam calls I've received in the past are from another block of VoIP numbers based in entirely different states.

You fail to understand that the numbers you see have nothing to do with where the calls originate.  This is much like spoofing a "from" email address.  I can use any "from" email address I want, and in fact, do use a number of them for my business.

The only reason scammers use VoIP services based in Australia (and other countries) is so they appear "more legitimate" compared to say, an international number originating from India, or a blocked number with no caller ID. Most people would simply not answer those calls are they are out of the ordinary (and expensive for the scammers to place the call). Scammers are actually buying/leasing these services as they are relatively cheap, they don't spoof them (not here anyway). Some scammers will even go as far as operating "pop up" call centres physically in the country, I have seen this myself.

Exactly! 

As I mentioned before, telcos are taking action against caller-ID spoofing and whilst I don't know the in-depth technical details about the mechanisms, I would say it's largely impossible to do on today's infrastructure (at least, without the telco's cooperation). How telephone networks operate outside of Australia, I don't know.

SMS spoofing is an entirely different topic. That does happen, at least on some networks.

The problem is, the calling number is supplied by the equipment at the origin of the call, and there's nothing to be done to prevent this being spoofed.

[Halcyon]

I'm very confused.

I don't think you're confused. I think you're trying to change the narrative from earlier when you said "How do you know the number is spoofed or not?" and "Do you ever get calls from someone with a thick Indian accent, offering you insurance for "final expenses"?...  If you do, and it's not an overseas call, you've been spoofed" then proceeded to claim that I was "kidding myself". Those were your words. Not mine.

I provided you a clear explanation of how these sorts of scam calls worked on our networks here.

There's your problem.  The calls are from India.

You're making an assumption. Sometimes they are. Sometimes they aren't.

Ultimately there is a connection to the land lines in Australia, but that's not the origin of the number reported by caller ID.

Now you're splitting hairs. You're talking about the physical seat where someone is sitting. I'm talking about the origin of the call on a telephone network. For all intents and purposes, the "origin" is the point where the call hits the telephone network (and thus the "A Party" number). That "origin" I'm talking about is the VoIP server sitting somewhere in Australia where it connects to the telco, i.e.: the boundary between internet and telecommunications network.

You claimed earlier that the number is simply "spoofed" (once again, your words, not mine). I told you that's incorrect when in fact it's a real number connected to a real telecommunications network. I also said they typically have incoming call restrictions so you can't call them back.

None of those numbers matter.  They were generated by the spammers in India.  Phone numbers don't work like IP addresses on the Internet.

Wrong on both accounts. The numbers aren't "generated" by the spammers, at least not when it comes to our big networks here (your country and systems might be different and susceptible to spoofing in this way). As I mentioned, they are actual numbers sitting on the network.

And phone numbers are in a way analogous to IP addresses on the internet. A phone number is simply an "address" to a terminal or a phone somewhere. The digits reflect where and how the call is routed across networks.

This is much like spoofing a "from" email address.  I can use any "from" email address I want, and in fact, do use a number of them for my business.

This is a good way to have your emails blocked by many mail servers. Mechanisms like SPF/DKIM and DMARC are used to prevent spoofed email addresses. You might want to look into that.

The problem is, the calling number is supplied by the equipment at the origin of the call, and there's nothing to be done to prevent this being spoofed.

You're incorrect (at least when it comes to the big networks here, as I mentioned, your country might differ).

Telstra (Australia's largest telco) have taken steps to prevent CID spoofing from occurring, which is why scammers are increasingly resorting to leasing legitimate VoIP services with legitimate telephone numbers to get around this. There were cases years ago where caller ID was being spoofed and people would get "missed calls" from mobile numbers that never made the call. That's all stopped now.


Anyway, that's all I have to say on the matter. I don't feel like going around in circles with you. Feel free to respond, but I won't be reading it.

[gnuarm]

I'm very confused.

I don't think you're confused. I think you're trying to change the narrative from earlier when you said "How do you know the number is spoofed or not?" and "Do you ever get calls from someone with a thick Indian accent, offering you insurance for "final expenses"?...  If you do, and it's not an overseas call, you've been spoofed" then proceeded to claim that I was "kidding myself". Those were your words. Not mine.

I provided you a clear explanation of how these sorts of scam calls worked on our networks here.

You think you have done that, but you haven 't. 

Tell me this.  If a call comes from India, but is being spoofed to look like it came from Australia, how would you know? 

Three cases:

1) Call from Australia

2) Call from India

3) Call from India, spoofed to look like a call from the same Australian number in (1).

What will your caller ID show in each of these three cases?

There's your problem.  The calls are from India.

You're making an assumption. Sometimes they are. Sometimes they aren't.

But, you are not allowing for any of that.  More importantly, you don't explain how you know where any calls are actually coming from. 

Ultimately there is a connection to the land lines in Australia, but that's not the origin of the number reported by caller ID.

Now you're splitting hairs. You're talking about the physical seat where someone is sitting. I'm talking about the origin of the call on a telephone network.

That's the whole point!!!  They are calling from India, spoofing the telephone network to look like they are down the street from you!!!

For all intents and purposes, the "origin" is the point where the call hits the telephone network (and thus the "A Party" number). That "origin" I'm talking about is the VoIP server sitting somewhere in Australia where it connects to the telco, i.e.: the boundary between internet and telecommunications network.

So, if they are calling from India and not spoofing the number, how does the network know the call is from India?  Where does it get the number?

You claimed earlier that the number is simply "spoofed" (once again, your words, not mine). I told you that's incorrect when in fact it's a real number connected to a real telecommunications network. I also said they typically have incoming call restrictions so you can't call them back.

I don't know what a "real" number is.  Every long distance call is the same.  There is a protocol that reports the calling number, which can be spoofed. 

None of those numbers matter.  They were generated by the spammers in India.  Phone numbers don't work like IP addresses on the Internet.

Wrong on both accounts. The numbers aren't "generated" by the spammers, at least not when it comes to our big networks here (your country and systems might be different and susceptible to spoofing in this way). As I mentioned, they are actual numbers sitting on the network.

This has nothing to do with your network.  When a phone calls from India, it has to report the number that is calling.  That can be spoofed.  You keep talking about the Australian telephone exchange as if it doesn't connect anywhere else in the world.  That's not how they work.

And phone numbers are in a way analogous to IP addresses on the internet. A phone number is simply an "address" to a terminal or a phone somewhere. The digits reflect where and how the call is routed across networks.

The number analogy is where it ends.  In the IP, whoever your server contacts knows your server's IP address, and repeats for each step from IP to IP address.  This gives a traceable chain of IP addresses that points right back to you.  That does not exist in phone systems.

This is much like spoofing a "from" email address.  I can use any "from" email address I want, and in fact, do use a number of them for my business.

This is a good way to have your emails blocked by many mail servers. Mechanisms like SPF/DKIM and DMARC are used to prevent spoofed email addresses. You might want to look into that.

LOL!!!  I've already told you I've been doing this every day for the last 20 years!!!!  Just like you talk about phones reporting the company's main number, rather than the exact phone you are calling from, it is commonplace to have any number of email addresses that send email, but direct replies to another email address.

You clearly know less about email than you do the telephone network, so I won't continue to try to explain this analogy.

The problem is, the calling number is supplied by the equipment at the origin of the call, and there's nothing to be done to prevent this being spoofed.

You're incorrect (at least when it comes to the big networks here, as I mentioned, your country might differ).

Telstra (Australia's largest telco) have taken steps to prevent CID spoofing from occurring, which is why scammers are increasingly resorting to leasing legitimate VoIP services with legitimate telephone numbers to get around this. There were cases years ago where caller ID was being spoofed and people would get "missed calls" from mobile numbers that never made the call. That's all stopped now.


Anyway, that's all I have to say on the matter. I don't feel like going around in circles with you. Feel free to respond, but I won't be reading it.

Exactly.  No point in trying to teach you anything, when you refuse to answer any of my questions, which clearly show you don't understand.

[tom66]

It doesn't work that way.  Just like boiler rooms can spring up overnight, these VOIP routing companies spring up overnight and operate until they have to pay a bill or two.  The payments are not made in real time.

Well, make them pay a deposit upfront for the first 1,000 calls, and cut their connection if they don't pay up.  It's really not that difficult, it's just that phone companies aren't motivated to stop it.

[Shonky]

Numbers are (or at least were) spoofed in Australia.

This is how you end up with real calls from non scammers asking why you called them when you absolutely did not.

Or hang up calls where the from number is one or two digits off my mobile. That is no coincidence.

And that's within the last 12 months on both occasions. Saying numbers aren't spoofed is simply not correct.

[gnuarm]

It doesn't work that way.  Just like boiler rooms can spring up overnight, these VOIP routing companies spring up overnight and operate until they have to pay a bill or two.  The payments are not made in real time.

Well, make them pay a deposit upfront for the first 1,000 calls, and cut their connection if they don't pay up.  It's really not that difficult, it's just that phone companies aren't motivated to stop it.

Who's going to make them pay anything???  They are in another country, dealing with a company in another country, dealing with a company in another country!!!

You can't legislate this away.  If we could, we would also be able to end copyright infringement, email scams and all manner of other issues, that originate in other countries. 

Good luck with your idea. 

[gnuarm]

 

[Halcyon]

2024 UPDATE.

Since my original post, the number of scam calls has reduced to zero.

However over the past few weeks, I've been finding that I'm on some kind of marketing list. I've been getting callers actually leaving voice messages. Regardless, it's all rubbish and they've probably matched my name, job title and phone number from somewhere else.

As of today, I'm no longer accepting any "traditional" or "unencrypted" calls to my number. If you try to call, you'll get a standard network error message and the call will terminate. No option to leave a message.

We'll see how this goes... Is it just me or has regular telephony just become so polluted with garbage that it's no longer viable?

[Shonky]

What is an encrypted phone call?

[Halcyon]

What is an encrypted phone call?

For me, it means calls via the Signal application (but still using my phone number). But Whatsapp and other VoIP services could also fall into this category. Most of my contacts use Signal for messaging and voice/video calls.

[BradC]

Is it just me or has regular telephony just become so polluted with garbage that it's no longer viable?

I think it's just you. Of the 30 or so calls I get a week I'm seeing a scam call every other week or so. I still get the odd week of "random" calls when my number gets spoofed, but I find it interesting talking to people from around Australia to see where they are and how their day is going.

I think you'll find most "normal" people, and certainly those with any reason to interact with "the great unwashed" don't have the luxury of forgoing actual conventional telecommunications. It kinda seems a bit severe though. Almost like "Gee I need a haircut, I'll go get chemo".

Glad it works for you however.

[Halcyon]

Is it just me or has regular telephony just become so polluted with garbage that it's no longer viable?

but I find it interesting talking to people from around Australia to see where they are and how their day is going.

I'm glad you have the time for this.

I guess to add to one of your other points you raised in your previous message; Most commercial business I do is online. For example, if I need to register my car, or pay a bill, it's all done online and I get notified via email. With email, you can verify the authenticity of the sender with a high degree of confidence. The same cannot be said for a voice on the end of a phone.

[BradC]

I'm glad you have the time for this.

I make time. I'm a consultant, so the next phone call could be from a client with a problem or someone who has a problem and isn't yet a client. I can't afford to ignore the phone because that's where a majority of my work comes from.

Plus, my 102 year old grandfather can dial a phone. Signal? Not so much.

[Halcyon]

This problem would be largely solved if Android could just whitelist numbers in your contacts and not allow any others through.

[Whales]

What is an encrypted phone call?

For me, it means calls via the Signal application (but still using my phone number). But Whatsapp and other VoIP services could also fall into this category. Most of my contacts use Signal for messaging and voice/video calls.

The term "phone number" is now very confusing.

Traditionally: your phone number is a thing leased from a phone company and centrally managed, so if you get a call to your mobile phone number then it is by definition through your mobile provider.  Let's call it mp://614xxxxxxxx for shorthand (Australian mobile phone numbers are in the format 04xxxxxxxx internally but 614xxxxxxxx externally).

These days: some services use your phone number as part of a user ID (that way they offload problems like spam signups & complaints to another company, which saves tremendous amounts of staff & money), and they make it look like you are "receiving calls to your number" even though it's a completely different system.  Let's call Signal's example as signal://614xxxxxxxx for short.

Can I now "get a call to my phone number" from any service that includes my phone number in their user id?  It's just a string of numbers, it has little or nothing to do with actual traditional number registration systems.    mailto://614xxxxxxxx.com  http://614xxxxxxxx.net  sip://614xxxxxxxx@example.com.  From the user's perspective: yes, I got a phone call to +614xxxxxxxx.  From a technical perspective: no, you got a call to a completely different thing that just happens to include those numbers in it.

We'll see how this goes... Is it just me or has regular telephony just become so polluted with garbage that it's no longer viable?

Somehow it seems to strongly be a per-number problem.

My shared family home phone (now a SIP phone) has a horrible scam call problem whilst my desk phone (SIP) and mobile phone have never received a scam call.

We've worked around the home phone issue by configuring it only to play a ring when the incoming CID matches someone in the address book.  It works wonderfully -- we no longer feel pangs of hatred when the phone rings because we know it is always someone we care about ringing us.  Meanwhile it still logs 2-10 different scam call attempts every single day in its logs (not a joke).  Failed call attempts don't get billed in Australia, so they probably don't care.

This problem would be largely solved if Android could just whitelist numbers in your contacts and not allow any others through.

You'll need a third party app for this, it's not a builtin feature.  They've also removed SIP support from the built in phone app too (as of Android 11 or 10?).  Google doesn't give a damn about you.

I would love a world with proper competition other than the Google Apple duopoly.  In the meantime:  F-droid seems to be one of the best options to get new apps whilst avoiding scams & headaches.  You might need to use the search term "blacklist" and then check if the app actually supports a whitelist mode (don't question the level of insanity I needed to work this out).

[coromonadalix]

i receive daily at least 10 falses sms,  and around 50 a week in emails,  so tired  of this crap

emails rules, no avail, they play with wording, or text icons  etc ....     i can report some of them  but ....


and yes older android versions where doing a better job  at blocking a few things,  google managed to break some functionality and now blocking a few things is harder than before

 abd finally i lost this battle  loll

[Halcyon]

Email for me is not really a big deal. I rarely get spam in my private email (maybe a few per year). Google's filtering does a pretty awesome job, but then again, I also never give out my primary address. For stuff like Linkedin, I use aliases which I recreate every so often to avoid all the "professional spam" you can't opt-out of. They'll just get a bounced email when the address changes.

At work is a different story and the Spam Act (unfortunately) largely doesn't apply. I've got to the point now that I've created mail flow rules, so if you send me unsolicited marketing email (that's clearly just scraping my information from a variety of sources), I'll block their entire domain from contacting anyone in our organisation, permanently. Businesses need to realise that this mass-mailing largely doesn't work, and I have absolutely zero interest in doing business with a company that engages in that shit. If I want their services, I'll reach out to them, not the other way around.

[johnh]

I asked my home answering service (SWMBO)  as it her mother that normally calls our landline.  MIL is suffering from Dementia.
Side note: she called us 3 time on Christmas day, to wish us happy Christmas.   

She said we haven't had a span call on the landline for months.
She said she has had one dodgy call on her mobile, robo voice saying they were from bank xyz about our mortgage, which we don't bank with and one dodgy sms in last couple of weeks.
Much better than a few years back. When every call was about your Internet service was faulty, NBN migration, NBN service problems the list goes on

[Halcyon]

When every call was about your Internet service was faulty, NBN migration, NBN service problems the list goes on

To be fair, if you're on NBN FTTN or HFC, there is a very high chance that your connection is faulty. 

[Whales]

At work is a different story and the Spam Act (unfortunately) largely doesn't apply.

!

My shared home phone was once the number for a business my parents ran.

Perhaps that's the difference?

[Halcyon]

At work is a different story and the Spam Act (unfortunately) largely doesn't apply.

!

My shared home phone was once the number for a business my parents ran.

Perhaps that's the difference?

It could be, but since it's now a residential service, you can list your number on the Do Not Call Register (https://www.donotcall.gov.au).

Legitimate businesses are obliged to "wash" their contact lists through this, to avoid complaints and possible action taken against them. Non-legitimate businesses/scammers don't give a crap, obviously.

[Whales]

I've now listed it there and I'll see how I go.

[Halcyon]

I've now listed it there and I'll see how I go.

I'll be interested to see what kind of impact this has in your case after about a month. Feel free to report back.

[johnh]

we are on Fibre to the Curb.  FTTC
Can't be bothered upgrading to FTTP,  no streaming in this household

[Whales]

Update: Shared home phone has had no telemarketer calls for the past few days.  Putting it on the Australian DNC list seems to have made an immediate impact, like magic.  I'll keep watching it.

[BradC]

Update: Shared home phone has had no telemarketer calls for the past few days.  Putting it on the Australian DNC list seems to have made an immediately impact, like magic.  I'll keep watching it.

They’re just pausing to lull you into a false sense of security.

[Whales]

Update 2: Not so magic after all.  Got one (and exactly one) today.  I answered it with "Hello" and then heard the bubble/pop sound effect that their software always seems to play before someone joins the calll.  I should have stayed on the line and found out what they were selling.

[Halcyon]

Update 2: Not so magic after all.  Got one (and exactly one) today.  I answered it with "Hello" and then heard the bubble/pop sound effect that their software always seems to play before someone joins the calll.  I should have stayed on the line and found out what they were selling.

The DNC register really only functions to filter out legitimate sellers/marketers. The dodgy/scam callers will completely ignore the register. But, it at least gives you the confidence to know that if you still continue to get these nuisance calls, there is a strong likelihood that their intention is malicious.

[Whales]

Final update: sometimes still getting a few calls per day that we don't answer (CIDs are numbers from around the country).  Perhaps the DNC had an effect, perhaps it didn't, our scam call load is probably already lower from not answering them in ages.