Author Topic: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video  (Read 17168 times)

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Offline robrenz

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2012, 03:18:08 pm »
Great.  Which soldering unit did you choose to buy?

http://www.janelonline.com/product_p/cd-1bb.htm
Quote
Are the units made in Spain?
yes
Quote
I see Howard Electronics carries their line in the USA, but it isn't clear to me that all the units share the same heating technology, so only differences between prices are just the included expandability and accessories?

janelonline.com has better pricing than Howard but Howard is a more informative site
Quote
Its costs about $30 to replace each tip since the tip, heater and thermocouple are all in one.
 
On Janel the average tip price is around $25 but here is anticipated tip life from JBC's site
It varies by tip geometry, temperature settings, solder, flux used, and the person that uses it; but generally, it ranges between 25,000 and 100,000 solder joints.
Quote
One thing about JBC documentation is they don't provide archives of their older models.
http://www.howardelectronics.com/jbc/BT-1BA.html
I can't find any information on how these are different from the newer ones.
Here it is http://www.jbctools.com/knowledge-base/tech-area/information-of-discontinued-products
AFIK the resistive heating element is also a thermocouple. So they probably cycle between drive and sense rapidly. and since the heating element is the thermocouple there is virtually no time lag in the temp measurement so the control loop can be very  aggressive.  All I know is it kicks but on high thermal demand soldering and the tip change is sweet. There is virtually no wait time on a tip change. by the time you put the tip in and move to your joint its up to temp. Plus you can adjust the temp to any setting you want (makes Dave happy) no need for same tip in multiple temps(metcal etc).

This is the unit I have

[/quote]
« Last Edit: April 22, 2012, 03:29:43 pm by robrenz »
 

Offline M. András

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2012, 06:04:27 pm »
a Weller is everything but isn't cheap.! when a simple stand for their WMP pencil iron cost almost 200 USD which sits next to me i cant tell you what its made of casted iron and plastic and a little magnet nothing else :) not to mention the other parts of the WD1M kit :)
Worse than it is here (WMP + Stand goes for $158USD as a kit here in the US). Still quite pricey for what it is here, but it's not as bad as what your stuck with. Quite understandable why you'd be unhappy (or worse).
 
i can imagine the profit after the cost savings considering the prices of the Weller soldering kits and their stuffs. i checked my WD1M kit again with the fluke thermocouple and the Chinese Hakko temp check unit 191 maybe? both instrument agrees and the damn station is off by another 150degree Celsius again since i last adjusted it few months ago it had over 150degree diff from real to displayed value.... the service center in the country gave it back stating its perfectly fine yep, after it wouldn't heat up and the guy in the distributor just scratched his head looking at it and it was 2 month after purchase. and the unit itself was half a year old according to the date code under the unit
I need to check mine out (WD1, not WD1M), but if it's off, it's not out by 150C. Not sure when yours was made, but mine is from 2006, and purchased new in 2008 (apparently sat on the shelf for some time, which is why I expect I got the discount).

BTW, are Weller's Repair personnel are using the iron's thermocouple data via the USB port (if you know)? Might explain why they're saying it's fine vs. your measurements.

it was definetly off i touched the tip with my hand when the station said 550celsius and over that value, it was cold, that was the point when i went back with the whole kit to the distributor and get it checked, after that 2 months i got a hakko 191 to check it, at a set point on its calibration which is 100celsius, it was 150celsius off in the positive range so it was around 250celsius and melted the solder too i could make it +-1,2 celsius accurate to the checker with multiple -40celsius steps and save cycle, i dont know how i could get a thermocouple wich i could wrap around the iron and log the temp with the fluke meter, and with the weller software via usb link, intresting thing is the usb link provides real time data from it, and the unit's screen looks like avg or few sample/s
 

Offline Baliszoft

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2012, 06:42:32 pm »
Am I the only one who has got no problem with his weller station(s)? Not a single one? It's expensive yes, but works (for me at least).
 

Offline sonicj

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2012, 06:56:42 pm »
i dont know how i could get a thermocouple wich i could wrap around the iron and log the temp with the fluke meter, and with the weller software via usb link, intresting thing is the usb link provides real time data from it, and the unit's screen looks like avg or few sample/s
is the usb link really usb or is it serial over usb?
-sj
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2012, 07:11:00 pm »
At a guess the JCB station uses the nichrome element as a PTC wirewound temp sensor, switching it between power and sensing the voltage drop across it while sending a constant current through it. Workable if you either have good control of the winding and can make a consistent element, or you use an extra pin to have a resistor used as a part of a voltage divider to provide compensation of the actual element as tested in production. No horrible thermal offsets like with thermocouples, and very accurate as the sensor is using the normally undesired self heating. Can even be done without switching if you are able to measure the actual current and voltage and use a look up table to determine the temperature from it.
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2012, 07:39:02 pm »
From the JBC site tech page:

How does the JBC heat up so quickly compared to older technology irons?
 
JBC soldering irons are fourth generation soldering technology.
 We use one wire buried deep in the tip of the copper to "read and feed." Our thermocouple and heating element wire are one in the same and are microprocessor driven over a sensor at 60 hertz utilizing up to 140 watts on demand in a very low mass cartridge. This is why our thermal performance cannot be matched. It is technolgy compatible with todays needs, as well as tomorrows. Our competitors are using technolgy invented 20+ years ago with little advancement.



Offline robrenz

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2012, 11:48:54 pm »
Video of the 32mm wide tip in action I described earlier in the thread.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 03:04:12 am by robrenz »
 

Offline LEECH666

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2012, 01:12:26 pm »
Am I the only one who has got no problem with his weller station(s)? Not a single one? It's expensive yes, but works (for me at least).

I am very happy with my Weller WSD 81, I also own an even older WECP 20 but that ones hasn't seen as much action since I bought the WSD 81. I also own a Pace MBT 250 and a cheapy Atten 858D+.
 

Offline eV1Te

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2012, 03:03:18 pm »
I looked into a document published by JBC, where they compare their own station vs. Weller (and also others)... Of course the JBC shows the best performance since it is also one of the most expensive and uses the heater integrated in the tip.

But I still think that the measurements are biased towards JBC (since they did the measurements. The difference might not be as big as they make it look.

See picture below.

1. The JBC station has a higher initial temperature before the soldering starts (only a few degrees, but still).

2. The JBC looses its temperature faster than Weller (JBC has "lighter" tip since it is hollow to contain the heater) This is negative for the performance I can imagine?!

3. Even though JBC looses temperature faster then Weller, it still completes the joint before Weller?!


This is only possible if:
a. They intentionally leave the Weller longer than needed, compared to JBC in order to make it look not as good

b. They have different technique or dirty Weller tip, so that heat conduction is not as good, requiring longer soldering time. (the picture included in the document shows a dirty and black Weller tip, vs a clean JBC)





« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 03:05:27 pm by eV1Te »
 

Offline T4P

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2012, 03:44:48 pm »
To think some people praise JBC madly here . I would say Weller used to be good , but they certainly can be acceptable to be praised IF they continued their awesome workmanship, but no.
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2012, 04:52:59 pm »
it was definitely off i touched the tip with my hand when the station said 550Celsius and over that value, it was cold, that was the point when i went back with the whole kit to the distributor and get it checked, after that 2 months i got a Hakko 191 to check it, at a set point on its calibration which is 100Celsius, it was 150Celsius off in the positive range so it was around 250Celsius and melted the solder too i could make it +-1,2 Celsius accurate to the checker with multiple -40Celsius steps and save cycle, i don't know how i could get a thermocouple which i could wrap around the iron and log the temp with the fluke meter, and with the Weller software via USB link, intresting thing is the USB link provides real time data from it, and the unit's screen looks like avg or few sample/s
Definitely sounds like a bad unit. Hopefully, they'll get it sorted for you, and it will be a one-time deal (rather than repetitive issue with any replacement or repaired unit).

Unfortunately, I can't find a lot of reviews of recent Weller stations and irons to know what Weller has actually come to these days (as mentioned, I see cost-cutting in mine, but it does appear to be working properly). But posts such as yours and DaveS's make me nervous (as does the WMP iron review I found on Amazon) in regard to long-term reliability.

Not sure what's up with the USB port, as I didn't bother with the WD1M (not using it for production, so seemed unnecessary to me).

BTW, Weller does make a few thermocouples. The CP-01 for example (http://www.all-spec.com/products/CP01.html), doesn't need to be wrapped/affixed to the tip, just contact (would work with different tips on different irons). They also make thermocouples, such as the K-181, which is attached to an LTB tip & holder (not sure if it's for the WSP80 or WP80 as I can't find a pic or detailed enough description).

Am I the only one who has got no problem with his Weller station(s)? Not a single one? It's expensive yes, but works (for me at least).
Thus far, mine seems to be working fine.

I haven't actually gotten a suitable thermocouple though to take tip readings yet, but if it's off, it's not by much.

My main issues are that the costs are when compared to past Weller products, the quality has diminished to some extent, but the prices are still high (reduced value for money). Specifically, the irons aren't as rugged, and the internal circuits appear to be made elsewhere (no Weller label or P/N; can't find a website for the board maker <printed silkscreen>).
 

Offline eV1Te

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2012, 06:02:42 pm »
Not sure what's up with the USB port, as I didn't bother with the WD1M (not using it for production, so seemed unnecessary to me).

After opening up my WD1 model, I found that the main processing board already has a MAX232 chip on it. I guess that the M model only contains an additional USB to RS232 board.

When I have time, i will try and connect a normal RS232 cable to the MAX232 that is already in my non-M model  ;)
 

Offline saturation

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2012, 07:15:15 pm »
@ robrenz: thanks for those JBC links, I must have been brain dead on the discontinued model specs, as that material was already on the website I was surfing on!  Weekends, sheesh  :o.  Janel has great prices, I think they are the folks to beat if buying JBC in the USA.

@ eV1Te:  its best to be skeptical about any company's own tests of competing products against their own.   There is a conflict of interest in being impartial.  However, there is a simple correlation between the speed of reaching 350oC from room temperature without overshoot, the faster the better.  Its a simple index to know JBC is at least a top player. 

I find it harder to separate the ceiling, or the top players, from the bottom.  The bottom is easy, whatever regulated iron doesn't meet IPC standards can be eliminated from your choices, given IPC stations provide optimal soldering conditions.  Manual IPC stations provide the minimal cost. 

There is are 1-3 papers that are public that have 3rd party doing the tests and specify the criteria among professional stations.  One tested Metcal against others, and this one, among many. See enclosed.







« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 07:16:48 pm by saturation »
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2012, 07:56:42 pm »
After opening up my WD1 model, I found that the main processing board already has a MAX232 chip on it. I guess that the M model only contains an additional USB to RS232 board.

When I have time, i will try and connect a normal RS232 cable to the MAX232 that is already in my non-M model  ;)
Been a few years since I opened it, so I don't recall exactly what was on the boards (don't recall there was much to it; basically a PIC on the LCD board and power board IIRC).

But you've piqued my curiosity, and I may have to break it open soon.  ;D
 

Offline M. András

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2012, 08:30:46 pm »
Not sure what's up with the USB port, as I didn't bother with the WD1M (not using it for production, so seemed unnecessary to me).

After opening up my WD1 model, I found that the main processing board already has a MAX232 chip on it. I guess that the M model only contains an additional USB to RS232 board.

When I have time, i will try and connect a normal RS232 cable to the MAX232 that is already in my non-M model  ;)
i didnt open up mine but when i plugged in the usb cable i felt like i would brake off that usb board its hold only by a single rivet as i see it from the outside and  trought the routed holes, i gonna try it with a little higher temp which is in range of my k-type fluke thermocuple included in the fvf kit and try to measure it with liquid solder as a good thermal conductor better then touching it to the tip itself, i dont remember and i didnt even ask how long is the warranty of the unit, but i think 1 year for sure. if it wont hold up the calibration once again i will ask them to replace, it was intresting the distributor has it on sale and they intrestingly had it on stock but a week before that i asked for the availablity and they said 4-5days, strange, it was an original foam box with a paper housing as i seen like other weller products, but the paper housing wasnt for wd1m thats for sure i think  its the other kit image with the 80watts iron
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2012, 04:17:11 am »
...k-type fluke thermocouple included in the fvf kit...
What's it good to?

I ask, as I'm accustomed to the K types included with meters not being able to withstand much (~ 200C max) due to the insulation used. This is what caused me to do the research that turned up the CP-01.
 

Offline eV1Te

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2012, 12:36:59 pm »
...k-type fluke thermocouple included in the fvf kit...
What's it good to?

I ask, as I'm accustomed to the K types included with meters not being able to withstand much (~ 200C max) due to the insulation used. This is what caused me to do the research that turned up the CP-01.

All K type thermocouples can handle ~1300 Celsius (the wires them selves), its only the insulator or similar that can't go that high. If you just remove some of the insulation close to the tip, you can use it to very high temperatures!  ;)
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2012, 01:35:41 pm »
Just don't let the bare thermocouple wires touch each other (other than the intended junction) . It will form another thermocouple where not intended.

Offline nanofrog

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2012, 03:33:20 pm »
...its only the insulator or similar that can't go that high. If you just remove some of the insulation close to the tip, you can use it to very high temperatures!  ;)
I realize it's the insulation that has the temp rating so low, not the actual thermocouple. 

I'd rather not deal with a false reading due to a short or ruin it for other uses (I realize they're cheap on eBay, but that doesn't help me as that's something I'll likely forget to order spares :-[), so I started looking at Omega (exposed junction version - http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=KHXL_NHXL&Nav=tema06), and eventually stumbled on the CP-01. Still not sure if I should just go for a cloned Hakko FG-100 tip thermometer though (so I don't splash solder on a meter).
 

Offline T4P

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2012, 04:38:08 pm »
Well , 350C is mostly the limit due to Type K hitting it's curie point .
 

Offline eV1Te

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2012, 05:41:10 pm »
Well , 350C is mostly the limit due to Type K hitting it's curie point .

Sure it has a Curie temperature around 350C, but that is no limit, it just makes it slightly more inaccurate (non linear) above that temperature (compared to room temperature).

But the specifications for good type K thermocouples are not more than ±0.4% above 350C (which is about the same as for other types of thermocouples).
 

Offline M. András

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2012, 05:49:33 pm »
hmm good to know it goes beyond 200celsius, i used it below 200celsius due to i dont have money to buy another if i ruin it till the next paycheck :D
 

Offline eV1Te

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2012, 05:57:46 pm »
hmm good to know it goes beyond 200celsius, i used it below 200celsius due to i dont have money to buy another if i ruin it till the next paycheck :D

Even if you happen to break it, just cut it off and twist the two cables together to form a new tip (if you don't have welding/powerful power-supply capabilities). Since it is in the junction between the two different materials where you get the "measured" temperature.

You can buy the wires separately and just melt the tips together to form as many thermocouples as you need!  ;)

PS. You can even weld/crimp/clamp the wires to another metallic material, as long as the temperature is the same where each wire is welded/clamped you will have the same accuracy as usual (i.e. having them welded close together)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 06:04:00 pm by eV1Te »
 

Offline T4P

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2012, 07:15:31 pm »
Well , 350C is mostly the limit due to Type K hitting it's curie point .

Sure it has a Curie temperature around 350C, but that is no limit, it just makes it slightly more inaccurate (non linear) above that temperature (compared to room temperature).

But the specifications for good type K thermocouples are not more than ±0.4% above 350C (which is about the same as for other types of thermocouples).

But yeah , no point arse-ing about the curie point non-linear specs .
The only limiting factor is always the insulation ...
 

Offline eV1Te

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Re: Weller WX 2 Soldering Station product video
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2012, 08:49:05 pm »
But yeah , no point arse-ing about the curie point non-linear specs .
The only limiting factor is always the insulation ...

Hey, sorry if I missunderstod you, I thought you tried to say that 350 was the max temp or limiting temp. For all type K due to the curie temperature.

Since I have been working a lot with thermocouples and even designing electronics for amplification and logging of their signals, I wanted to share my knowledge.
 


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