Author Topic: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?  (Read 2992 times)

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Offline VSV_electronTopic starter

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What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« on: November 25, 2022, 01:22:52 am »
I decided to comeback to electronics spontaneously without much thinking about what I was going to do. I had a very vague idea of the knowledge gaps I wanted to fill mostly in the analog electronics as I consider it the most exciting part of the hobby.
They still manufacture transistors! - That was good news.
However, as it became apparent to me everyone seems to move into the digital (aka Arduino) territory and no one is much interested in analog any longer except for some specific areas such as tube amps and other guitar stuff building.

So I'm sitting here and thinking about what analog projects it's worth undertaking and learning about in 2022 and upcoming 2023. I'd like to be able to start from scratch, design a circuit, make all the calculations and implement it. Since I was mostly interested in the transistors in the amplification mode what should I be looking for? Nothing but sound amplifiers comes to mind but that's too limited task in itself.

In the old day everyone was building am radio receivers (I built one myself when I was 12) but who's working on them these days?
Anyway - what are your interests in the analog electronics in the age of total MCU dominance?
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2022, 01:32:38 am »
Anyway - what are your interests in the analog electronics in the age of total MCU dominance?

Analog computing to solve differential equations.
 
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Online RJSV

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2022, 01:55:39 am »
   I need a good analog design person, (alas not up and running, business-wise), that's optical analog, interfaces, speed switching options, knowing the trends in highest speed photodiode, or ???   That means some sort of non-semiconductor switch core, perhaps nano-meta material.
  Best would probably have background in optical networks (digital, sorry).
   I have method(s) doing low level, BOTH digital and analog...To the degree unique that it's, actually, really FUN, to work on, and confusing at same time.
One of the passive computational elements will do a multiply, of a digital word, X times an analog word.  The analog word 'representation' has similar BUS segmented or separated 'beamways'.
   Oh, and the work also demanding 'skill' in making up new tech terminologies...like 'discrete analog shifter',
or 'Flux Capac...    Oh wait
 

Offline VSV_electronTopic starter

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2022, 03:18:35 pm »
Anyway - what are your interests in the analog electronics in the age of total MCU dominance?

Analog computing to solve differential equations.

I see the point of the joke but...
I recently watched a YT presentation of an "Arduino expert". He discussed two different types of relays to use in "Arduino" (I'm sure he is unaware of what that actually is in essence).
So he went: "Here you see 2 types of relays: the first one is (showing an electromechanical one)... ehhh - Let's call it the "old type"... The second is (showing a solid state optocoupler one)" - Let's call it the "new type". So, if you don't want to mess with a diode (a really scary thing), forget about "the old type" relay...
Isn't that the beauty of the Arduino world?
 
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Offline VSV_electronTopic starter

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2022, 03:33:48 pm »
Anyway - what are your interests in the analog electronics in the age of total MCU dominance?

Analog computing to solve differential equations.

By the way, jokes aside... it just occurred to me that in your sarcastic reply (which is really spicy and funny) there is some rationality. Back in my University days we did some lab calculations on the analog computers to simulated behavior of the control systems implementing various methods of regulations. That was very interesting. Not sure if I'm ready to build an analog computer though :-)
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2022, 03:50:34 pm »
Anyway - what are your interests in the analog electronics in the age of total MCU dominance?

Sampling systems that don't convert to/from the digital domain.

For example, in the late 70s I built a bandpass filter with a Q of 4000 using 10% capacitors.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2022, 04:04:20 pm »
I see the point of the joke but...

That was not a joke.
Are you looking for an analog project idea, or just want to rant against Arduino?

Offline VSV_electronTopic starter

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2022, 08:43:38 pm »
...
That was not a joke.
Are you looking for an analog project idea, or just want to rant against Arduino?

How do you know it wasn't? Sounds like it was but I'm fine with that.
Actually I don't  mind both :)

In a number of replies to a similar question on Redit as far as I remember there was a reply that went something like "The Moog that doesn't drift".
I don't thnink you wouldn't notice some sarcasm in that reply ;)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 08:45:10 pm by VSV_electron »
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2022, 11:15:30 pm »
my SIGSALY Quantizer reconstruction IEEE SPECTRUM article

2x 6SL7 dynamique microphone preamplifier
5x 2050 argon thyratron

forms a reconstruction of WWII speech scrambling system first ADC, a six level flash converter used in à top secret speech scrambling system, 1942.

Your thoughts appreciated

Bon Soirée

Jon
« Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 11:21:48 pm by jonpaul »
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Offline RoGeorge

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2022, 08:27:33 am »
How do you know it wasn't [a joke]?

I know from other posts in this forum that he likes analog computing:


Image from here:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-did-you-do-with-or-to-your-oscilloscope-today/msg3030544/#msg3030544

Fun note, the name itself of "analog" electronic came from the fact that linear circuits with R, L, and amplifiers can be an analog of the differential equations met in the physical world (analog circuits able to simulate, and thus solve, other non-electronic problems we face in our day-to-day real world).  Never mind, here's another analog project idea:

Chaotic Attractors (there are many variations, either with transistors or with opamps):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/t20347/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/tek-475a-vs-tek-2445/msg4401871/#msg4401871


Picture found in the above EEVblog links, source:  https://www.mitchr.me/SS/Rossler/

Fun to try if you have an oscilloscope.  If you don't have an oscilloscope, you can use the sound card as a dual channel oscilloscope in XY mode, with a programs like this:  https://www.zeitnitz.eu/scope_en
« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 08:40:11 am by RoGeorge »
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2022, 08:35:04 am »
speech scrambling system



Wow, very nice!  :-+
Never looked into audio scramblers, now I'm curious, how does it work?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 08:38:04 am by RoGeorge »
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2022, 09:15:29 am »
ROgorge,   Rebonjour,

Studied and lectured on SIGSALY and modern digital media history since 1990s.

After 20 yrs or research and a year to design, construct and debug, VOILA! The only SIGSALY Quantizer (ADC) reconstruction.....
 JUST one of 72 six level flash ADC in SIGSALY.
 the only part ever reconstructed according to the Agencies and Museums.

The entire SIGSALY system filled 40 racks and a room, took 30 kW and 15 techs to run!
Read all about  SIGSALY at NSA NCM 

https://scienceblogs.de/klausis-krypto-kolumne/2019/03/03/rebuilding-a-part-of-the-legendary-sigsaly/

My articles: IEEE Spectrum Feb 2019

https://spectrum.ieee.org/rebuilding-a-piece-of-the-first-digital-voice-scrambler
https://spectrum.ieee.org/sigsaly-analogtodigital-converter-construction-and-debugging

Your thoughts appreciated !

Bon Weekend

Jon

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Online RJSV

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2022, 03:53:52 am »
   Curious, (I only know vacume tubes from audio stuff.)
   What type, in general, is it ramp gen and comparator, and did it need sample and hold ?
And, what speed ?...Does it have an interface, digital type ?
   Now I know that the assembly you show isn't the whole sys, but just the general spec.s ?
Does it need special thermal stability ? Thanks.

 

Offline rstofer

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2022, 04:49:40 am »
How do you know it wasn't [a joke]?

I know from other posts in this forum that he likes analog computing:


Image from here:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-did-you-do-with-or-to-your-oscilloscope-today/msg3030544/#msg3030544

Fun note, the name itself of "analog" electronic came from the fact that linear circuits with R, L, and amplifiers can be an analog of the differential equations met in the physical world (analog circuits able to simulate, and thus solve, other non-electronic problems we face in our day-to-day real world).

I had no intention of being sarcastic nor of making a joke.  Just about my ONLY interest in analog is in terms of analog computing.  I have two of the Comdyna computers plus I have built another from a design by Dr. Vogel:
http://www.analogmuseum.org/english/homebrew/vogel/

There are actually two problems patched on that GP-6:  One is the Mass-Spring-Damper and the other is the swinging door seen in some restaurants between the cooking and serving areas.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 04:53:44 am by rstofer »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2022, 05:20:34 am »
The Dr. Vogel Analog Computer linked above has 2 integrators plus some other toys.  This allows integration of acceleration to get velocity and integration of velocity to get displacement.  Thus it is suitable for many 2d order ordinary differential equations.  I added a test point so I could connect a scope but other than that, I just used the plans.

It is a high capable machine for the money and in terms of education, it's a treat!

 
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Offline Infraviolet

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2022, 05:22:28 pm »
There are interesting challenges to be had, for those who have experience with the likes of arduino and microcontrollers, in looking to create systems with the same functionality solely from analogue ICs (op amps, timers, comparators...). One can perhaps allow some simple digital gate ICs too. I've been working on a few such things, sticking to a rule of "generic" components only (things which multiple manufacturers make very similar options for). Think of something you'd apply a microcontrolelr too, or one of the functionalities involved in a larger microcontrolelr project, and try to offload it entirely to working on analogue ICs, I guess you'd have further considerations to include if you went right back to the individual transistors level.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2022, 05:33:14 pm »
Better, arguably, to use analogue components to achieve things that can't be achieved with digital systems.

Or to start from the understanding that the only digital circuits you are likely to encounter are femtoamp and photon counting circuits  - and progress from there. (Yes, so-called digital circuits are analogue circuits that interpret voltage/current waveforms as digital signals)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2022, 05:55:47 am »
Rebonjour RJ Hyward, et tous,

Appreciate your questions: a few clarificarions....

This reconstruction is the 6 level Quantizer, the very first analog to digital converter, invented at Bell Laboratoires 1942 in New York, one of 72 used in the SIGSALY top secret speech scrambling system.

See the NSA, NCM and cryptomuseum for full history and operation of SIGSALY, the origin of today's world of digital media... all mobiles, videos. music.

The reconstruction has a dynamic microphone transformer coupled preamplifier with 6SL7, a voltage doubler detector and 5 x2050 WW2 argon filled thyratron tubes as comparateurs.

These 5 tubes form a flash converter from a log law resistor ladder.

The output digital  lights 5 neon bulbs.

Sampling rate is at mains zero, 100 or . 120 Hz as thyratron B+ is 350 rectified, unfiltered SC.

All details in the IEEE SPECTRUM article or February 2019.

Enjoy!

Your thoughts send comments are appreciated!

From Paris 6eme arrondissement

Jon
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 05:59:32 am by jonpaul »
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Online BrianHG

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2022, 08:54:14 am »
This one is a beauty: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-pong-for-1-or-2-players/

Homepage: https://www.glensstuff.com/pong/pong.htm

100% discrete analog computing...

I don't know why, but the youtube video / channel was deleted...
I guess if you want to experience this next-level implementation, you will need to build one yourself.
All schematics are available in the thread.

If you want a video color raster version with score board, go to this page: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oscilloscope-pong-for-1-or-2-players/500/

Homepage: https://www.glensstuff.com/videopong/videopong.htm



Many other analog computing projects from GK: https://www.glensstuff.com/index.htm#5
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 09:30:18 am by BrianHG »
 

Offline _Wim_

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2022, 04:02:37 pm »
A DIY version of one of these is a nice "analog" project for 2023:
https://www.thinksrs.com/products/sr560.htm
https://www.thinksrs.com/products/sr570.html

Should keep you busy  ;)
 

Online RJSV

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2022, 01:11:21 am »
Rebonjour jonpaul, Merciboucou voltra response!
   I'm curious, still, so that's a flash convert, spanning the equivalent of (less than) octal or 3 bits.  Octal binary would do 7 individual states. Must have been horribly distorted AUDIO if they converted back !
  Did not quite understand the conversion rate mentioned.  Sorry, smartphone only, no PC access to read that, (plus, subscription IEEE).
   Maybe wouldn't have hurt, if they included a 'dead line' indicator, for input = 0...that being 6th state ?
- Rick (RJHayward)
EDIT:
   Also was thinking that the logarithimic scale maybe helped convert (audio) with less perception of distortion?  And, sivousplai, which way (log or exp), are the 5 steps, above 0 getting larger and larger, each step?  OR, was AC, centered on '3rd' lamp, plus or minus 2 steps?...(that is; -2, -1, 0, +1, +2) ignoring the logarithemic characteristic.)
AND, please, was it really a scrambler, I mean with a 'key Code', in case enemies spy had the hardware design?  In other words, just the novelty was considered so 'out-there' as to be secure.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 05:09:25 am by RJHayward »
 

Offline niconiconi

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2022, 02:34:48 am »
Anyway - what are your interests in the analog electronics in the age of total MCU dominance?

Analog computing to solve differential equations.

Today I just found several "exercise for the readers" questions on analog computing from EAI Handbook of Analog Computation (1971), I'm going to try solving a few of them in 2023 to learn some basic physics and electronics simultaneously.
 
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Offline niconiconi

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2022, 03:16:05 am »
Fun note, the name itself of "analog" electronic came from the fact that linear circuits with R, L, and amplifiers can be an analog of the differential equations met in the physical world (analog circuits able to simulate, and thus solve, other non-electronic problems we face in our day-to-day real world).

To be clearer, it's called analog because the circuit is an electrical analogy of a mechanical (or some other physical) system.

The etymology of the term "analog" in "analog circuit" was quite interesting indeed. Apparently, the first recorded usage of the term "analog" was specifically used in the context of analog computing, as an adjective before the term "computer" (initially as a reaction to "digital", as digital computers started to see its uses). Later, opamps became general-purpose circuit components, so "analog" started to be used to describe "circuit". Eventually, all circuits without logic are described as "analog circuit".

https://readingjimwilliams.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-history-of-analog-part-1.html
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 04:52:26 am by niconiconi »
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2022, 03:35:29 am »
Today I just found several "exercise for the readers" questions on analog computing from EAI Handbook of Analog Computation (1971), I'm going to try solving a few of them in 2023 to learn some basic physics and electronics simultaneously.

I have #4 pretty much under control and I have done #1.
 

Offline niconiconi

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Re: What analog projects are you after in 2022/23?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2022, 03:47:54 am »
In the old day everyone was building am radio receivers (I built one myself when I was 12) but who's working on them these days?
Anyway - what are your interests in the analog electronics in the age of total MCU dominance?

In the age of total MCU dominance, analog electronics still never really went away, it's always working in the background to play its specialized roles to support digital applications: input signal conditioning circuits in front of ADCs, an amplifier with low noise (or high bandwidth / low DC drift and offset), microvolt signal amplification for sensors, closed-loop control systems, a power supply with fast transient response (or low switching noise, or high efficiency), power distribution on a circuit board without parasitic resonance, and the likes. It often doesn't sound cool or fancy, but there are still interesting circuits to play with. Today's analog projects are largely driven by digital controllers, but analog circuits are still here, often performing serious tasks. Sometimes the MCU is just here for doing housekeeping tasks, such as driving a display or reading the buttons, It's the analog components that perform the actual work.

Furthermore, RF/microwave electronics is more important than ever today, ironically, at least partially due to the digital dominance. For modern Gbps digital links, basic knowledge of RF/microwave test and measurements is required. I spent a couple of weeks this year on measuring the impact of parasitic capacitance of protection components up to 500 MHz for a digital application. Also, even in the most advanced digital Software-Defined Radio systems, it still needs a good analog RF front-end design to function. With today's inexpensive electronics and circuit boards, DC to 1 GHz is now within the reach of many hobbyists, the future is bright.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 03:53:36 am by niconiconi »
 


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