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What are your thoughts on STEM education in schools? Good, bad and ugly?
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coppice:

--- Quote from: blueskull on February 21, 2020, 06:27:53 am ---
--- Quote from: donotdespisethesnake on February 17, 2020, 11:45:54 pm ---Hmm, I believe that China are massively into STEM as well.

--- End quote ---
Still a long way to go. The biggest problem in China is education. Chinese people are 10x more corrupted than their government. Given a chance, everyone will want to gain something from their power.

--- End quote ---
So, China is like everywhere else in this regard.

--- Quote from: blueskull on February 21, 2020, 06:27:53 am ---Thus, fundamentally, to ensure fair education, the enrollment system has to be based on quantifiable qualities such as exam points on hard core subjects like math and physics.
Therefore, in the golden learning ages between 12 and 22, Chinese students are mostly taught with knowledge not helping with innovation and practical engineering, but pure theories.

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Most Asian people, not just the Chinese, recognise that their education systems have far too much emphasis on rote learning, and not enough emphasis on developing a person's creative problem solving skills. They tend to think the west is better in this regard. They are wrong. The west used to be better, but most western countries have now trashed their education systems. Over the last 40 to 50 years they have been trying to fix things perceived as deficiencies, and they've done such a poor job they've destroyed what used to work well. This is why we see top universities running remedial classes for the most capable of their incoming cohort - they just didn't cover stuff in school that was standard curriculum in the 60s.

--- Quote from: blueskull on February 21, 2020, 06:27:53 am ---To making things worse, young Chinese kids nowadays think they have no hope to break wealth gap, so they just gave up and dreaming to be internet celebrities.

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I see quite a few young Chinese without much education doing well for themselves by putting in the effort. I see plenty of highly educated young Chinese who think that having put in some effort up to graduation day, they are entitled to an easy ride from them on. There's plenty of that in western countries too. Its depressingly common to interview graduates from top engineering schools who think they should never have to do any real engineering, and are entitled to a direct route to an easy time in management.

--- Quote from: blueskull on February 21, 2020, 06:27:53 am ---China is innovating fast only because China is massively importing engineers from abroad, by hiring abroad Chinese citizens, welcoming foreigners and setting up research centers abroad.

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Importing people? Who? Chinese going abroad to study are far more likely to return to China to work than in the past, although there are complexities there. 20 years ago a Chinese youngster returning with a foreign education was revered. Now they are treated with some suspicion. Too many people have gone abroad because they couldn't get a place at a top Chinese university, and their families have money. It turns out that in itself a foreign education is no indicator of anything interesting to an employer. Quite often it doesn't even mean they will speak English or German to a high standard (there is a cheap route to a University education in Germany, if you can pass a German language exam).

Right now China has become very unwelcoming to foreigners who are not ethnically Chinese, and lots of them seem to have left in the last couple of years. Many highly placed people in the west, of Chinese origin, do get regular contact from recruiters who want to place them in research jobs in China. However, if you talk to people of Korean origin in Europe or America you'll find much stronger tales of this. I have talked with a couple of Korean-Americans who get calls at least once a week from someone trying to place them in a job in Samsung or LG in Korea.

--- Quote from: blueskull on February 21, 2020, 06:27:53 am ---As we are already seeing US and Australia closing doors to Chinese students, especially the ones obliged to go back, China needs to come up with its own education system to stimulate innovation.
And even this is not limited by foreign governments, this is not economically sustainable mostly due to low profit. Not every company in China is like Huawei. Most run on <10% gross margin after tax.

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Foreign governments keep changing their minds on this. I know several wealthy Chinese who intended to send their children to US universities in the early 2000s who couldn't because 9/11 made it hard for a Chinese teenager to get a study visa for the US. I have never heard an explanation for how Muslim terrorism and Chinese students are connected, but the US certainly cut back on the students it allowed in. This gave opportunity for the UK and Australia to increase its Chinese student cohort. The UK, keen on getting people's money, seems to see this as an unreserved positive. Australia can't make up its mind.

--- Quote from: blueskull on February 21, 2020, 06:27:53 am ---What to do? I don't know. For sure an education evolution is needed, but even if it goes well the first try, there is still a 20 year iteration time.

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I don't know of a country which does not have a strong need right now to take a hard pragmatic look at its education system.
wraper:

--- Quote from: blueskull on February 21, 2020, 06:27:53 am ---China is innovating fast only because China is massively importing engineers from abroad, by hiring abroad Chinese citizens, welcoming foreigners and setting up research centers abroad.

--- End quote ---
Except foreigner (with no Chinese parents) will never get Chinese citizenship. In theory it's possible, in practice it is not unless you are Nobel prize laureate or something sort of. There are like a thousand of naturalized citizens in China, it'a goddamn 1ppm  :palm:. And in general foreigner should not expect getting something better than "white monkey" job.
coppice:

--- Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2020, 02:09:18 am ---
--- Quote from: blueskull on February 21, 2020, 06:27:53 am ---China is innovating fast only because China is massively importing engineers from abroad, by hiring abroad Chinese citizens, welcoming foreigners and setting up research centers abroad.

--- End quote ---
Except foreigner (with no Chinese parents) will never get Chinese citizenship. In theory it's possible, in practice it is not unless you are Nobel prize laureate or something sort of. There are like a thousand of naturalized citizens in China, it'a goddamn 1ppm  :palm:.

--- End quote ---
There is no particular reason why a country should offer citizenship to foreigners, so what is your point?

--- Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2020, 02:09:18 am ---And in general foreigner should not expect getting something better than "white monkey" job.

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There are many foreigners in China doing highly skilled professional work. There are probably less now than a few years ago, as they now demand a minimum of a masters degree, and they are generally making the place much less attractive to foreigners. The white monkey jobs are for those without professional skills who do little more for the company than present a white face, and possibly better English than the Chinese staff. Those without a masters degree no longer need apply, although there are plenty of humanities masters who would find a white monkey job a step up from their current employment at McDonalds.

wraper:

--- Quote from: coppice on February 22, 2020, 02:23:29 am ---
--- Quote from: wraper on February 22, 2020, 02:09:18 am ---
--- Quote from: blueskull on February 21, 2020, 06:27:53 am ---China is innovating fast only because China is massively importing engineers from abroad, by hiring abroad Chinese citizens, welcoming foreigners and setting up research centers abroad.

--- End quote ---
Except foreigner (with no Chinese parents) will never get Chinese citizenship. In theory it's possible, in practice it is not unless you are Nobel prize laureate or something sort of. There are like a thousand of naturalized citizens in China, it'a goddamn 1ppm  :palm:.

--- End quote ---
There is no particular reason why a country should offer citizenship to foreigners, so what is your point?

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That it is not welcoming anyone in practice. What you should expect is being thrown out once you become old.

--- Quote ---The white monkey jobs are for those without professional skills
--- End quote ---
Even if you have education and skills, your chances getting proper job are very low unless they are very specific in some demanded area..
wraper:

--- Quote from: coppice on February 22, 2020, 02:23:29 am ---The white monkey jobs are for those without professional skills who do little more for the company than present a white face, and possibly better English than the Chinese staff.

--- End quote ---
Often it's so bad that you could talk in English about pizza delivery at meeting about medicine. Nobody would understand or give a damn anyway.
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