General > General Technical Chat
What did we learn from the "open source ventilator" mess.......
sokoloff:
--- Quote from: tggzzz on July 06, 2020, 01:09:59 pm ---
--- Quote from: Psi on July 06, 2020, 12:51:39 pm ---I learnt that some people would rather die than be put on a ventilator which is not fully medically tested and certified. It kinda surprised me.
--- End quote ---
Don't be a twat. If they needed a ventilator, they were in no position to be able to give informed consent.
Having built a lung ventilator, over half a lifetime ago, I know there are a lot of subtle ways that it can kill, even if it works correctly and according to specification.
--- End quote ---
On the other hand, if someone needs a ventilator and doesn't get one, there's not a lot of variety in how that story ends.
John B:
The ventilators would itself have to operate within an existing system of people, institutions and regulations, with responsibilities and liabilities. So the idea of of a patient giving consent to try a piece of untested/unregulated equipment, then someone actually administering treatment on hospital grounds is unrealistic.
james_s:
So I guess in that situation we should just throw up our hands and let people die because otherwise we might kill some of them? I swear some people live in a completely different reality than I do. :o
Imagine what WWII would have been like if people had insisted that all new aircraft go through the full certification process before they were allowed to carry people and be flown into battle because "what if" one of those uncertified and hastily designed and assembled aircraft failed in flight and people died. :scared: We'd have to get the informed consent of every soldier, official or civillian who might fly on one and everyone who might be on the ground underneath one. Meanwhile you get pummeled by the axis forces who aren't bothered by such details. Personally I'm glad we threw caution into the wind and got the job done rather than sit mired in bureaucracy that peacetime allows for. Some of these aircraft did fail due to flaws in their design and/or construction, people died as a result, but overall vastly more people were saved.
helius:
You don't have to imagine: that's what in fact happened.
The P-51 Mustang, probably the most iconic US warbird, had "an uncommonly short development period, even during the war"; it first flew 149 days after the contract was drawn up. Its first deployment was over a year later when it entered service in the RAF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_P-51_Mustang
The operational history of Axis planes shows similarly long programmes of testing and refinement.
(The Me-262 took over three years from its first flight until deployment in the Luftwaffe)
rsjsouza:
--- Quote from: james_s on July 07, 2020, 02:27:55 am ---So I guess in that situation we should just throw up our hands and let people die because otherwise we might kill some of them? I swear some people live in a completely different reality than I do. :o
Imagine what WWII would have been like if people had insisted that (...)
--- End quote ---
James, unfortunately in those days people and society were vastly different and a comparison has become quite difficult to fathom. I mentioned this in another thread, but the expectation of "safety at all costs" warped societies into thinking that we can protect or safeguard ourselves and risk has become a tainted concept with the general public. The conundrum nowadays regarding masks and infections with a 1% kill ratio tells us something about how people would react boarding an airplane or an LCV where chances of returning were quite unfavourable.
Regarding the ventilators, their need was severely reduced as initially the reported death rates were astonishingly high and they were being used more indiscriminately. Nowadays it seems they are being used more selectively and therefore the demand for makeshift equipment is not severe.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/more-covid-19-patients-are-surviving-ventilators-in-the-icu/2020/07/03/2e3c3534-bbca-11ea-8cf5-9c1b8d7f84c6_story.html
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